Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:24 AM - Re: yak 52 fuel instrument (Rob Rowe)
2. 03:50 PM - Pristine CJ-6A for sale (Elmar Hegenauer)
3. 05:10 PM - Re: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument (Yak Pilot)
4. 05:10 PM - Re: Spark Plug gap (Yak Pilot)
5. 05:13 PM - Re: Still looking for a snot valve - help (Yak Pilot)
6. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument (Yak Pilot)
7. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument (Stephen Morrey)
8. 05:42 PM - Re: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument (Stephen Morrey)
9. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument (Yak Pilot)
10. 06:13 PM - Re: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument (Yak Pilot)
11. 07:09 PM - Re: yak 52 fuel instrument (Rob Rowe)
12. 08:19 PM - Re: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument (Yak Pilot)
13. 09:07 PM - Re: Yak 52 PTT (Scott Glaser)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: yak 52 fuel instrument |
FYI - this link is to a thread from 2006 on the same topic ...
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=11961
Out of curiosity I'll see if there are any faulty units in the UK that I can take
a peek inside.
Rob R.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245161#245161
Message 2
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| Subject: | Pristine CJ-6A for sale |
best restored and lowest hours
Nanchang CJ-6A for sale.
Aircraft was restored by 2000
AME hours and did win several
airshows for the best trainer
and plane overall.
The aircraft looks like new and
it has all the bells and whistles.
It comes with spare parts for
over US$ 15.000.00, incl. a spare
engine and propeller.
The price is US$ 115.000.00, far
below of the real costs of this
aircraft.
For more information, please contact
me exclusively off the list.
Best Regards
Elmar Hegenauer
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: yak 52 fuel instrument |
Rob, I read your writeup.- Well written as usual.- Is it possible that
instead of the fuel causing a phase shift in the inductive fields of these
coils that instead the fuel changes the dielectric value and thus changes t
he capacitance between the inductors discussed (outer and inner) which then
changes phase angle?-- If so, I get the idea.- If not, then I simply
do not understand how it could work at all.- =0A=0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A
-=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Rob Rowe <yak-list@
robrowe.plus.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, May 24, 2009
2:23:15 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument=0A=0A--> Yak-Li
st message posted by: "Rob Rowe" <yak-list@robrowe.plus.com>=0A=0AFYI - thi
s link is to a thread from 2006 on the same topic ...=0A=0Ahttp://forums.ma
tronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=11961=0A=0AOut of curiosity I'll see if there
are any faulty units in the UK that I can take a peek inside.=0A=0ARob R.
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.co
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Spark Plug gap |
Craig, you are talking about an MSD-6 ignition system whether you know it o
r not.- :-) =0A=0ARead about it here:- http://www.msdignition.com/produ
ct.aspx?id=5811=0A=0AThere is no question that it could be adapted to dri
ve the coil in a mag... if the company could be led to believe there was a
profit in it.- I use this device on my big block 68 Camaro and it is the
cat's meow.- Racing engines with high overlap camshafts are prone to plug
fouling at idle, exactly the same as our M-14's.- This system prevents t
hat and also prevents spark blowout at high RPM with a big supercharger.-
=0A=0AInteresting idea to adapt the concept to an airplane engine.- =0A
=0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF
rom: Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com>=0ATo: yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>=0A
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 7:37:37 AM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Spark Plug gap
ession is sometimes good for the soul...as Mark steps up and says:=0A=0A>AN
YWAY ~ Funny thing.- The high speed vibration went away too.- Mag check
s=0A>during all of this were always good.- No indication of plug problems
at all.=0A>Upon inspection, found that the plug gap was set too wide ... M
y fault for=0A>not double checking the A&P that was helping me put in the k
it way back=0A>when.- The plugs were at .032 or so.- Dennis recommends
.025- I have talked=0A>to other folks who claim .018 is about right, and
that wider than .018 can=0A>cause "starting problems".- I have mine now g
apped at .025 per Dennis's=0A>recommendation and everything is working perf
ectly, so I will avoid .018,=0A>but it is worth keeping in the back of your
head.=0A=0ANo news to those of us believers in the auto plug setup. Howeve
r, more work could be done in this area. These magnetos have a lot of "ener
gy" but not the kind of voltage that could be an added benefit when using a
utomotive plugs. Then the plug gap could be increased a bit. One way to do
this is add-on devices that step up the voltage and reshape the "spike", bu
t still revert to standard operation if they fail.=0A=0AWhat i am describin
g is a kind of ignition system that existed during the early days of electr
onic ignitions, but improves on it by providing multiple pulses, tuned to t
he engine condition.=0A=0AAs of yet, I don't have the motivation to develop
a design but I like the idea of retaining the original mag and enhancing i
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Still looking for a snot valve - help |
I'd buy what ever snot valve you can get from anyone (Doug Sapp) and just p
lumb it in.- =0A=0AFailing that, just what is a snot valve anyway?- How
hard would be it be to just make one? =0A=0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A-=0A=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Scott Poehlmann <scott-p@tex
as.net>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, May 22, 2009 8:35:25 P
M=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Still looking for a snot valve - help=0A=0A--> Y
ak-List message posted by: Scott Poehlmann <scott-p@texas.net>=0A=0AHi Denn
is,=0A=0AI agree with your concern, but the system in a most 55's is differ
ent than that in the 52 (or even the 50). First off, I (and most others) ha
ve an overboard dump line--99% of the time the compressor is pumping air ov
erboard and NOT through the system, thus most of the time the system is sea
led. I dutifully check for "snot" but essentially NEVER get anything out. S
econd, the system ONLY operates the starter--thus the lines are short and r
elatively straight--in fact my entire air system is on the engine side of t
he firewall except for the line to the cockpit pressure guage. Third, I at
least have my tank visually inspected every other annual or so, so I know i
t isn't corroded (as a gynecologist, I find it fascinating that the exact s
ame instrument I call a "diagnostic hysteroscope" and which costs over $15,
000 can be had by an A&P for < $500 when it is called a "flexible boroscope
"... but that's another discussion...). Given these things, I don't think
that using the tank bottom drain valve as the snot valve is unreasonable--
adding such a valve would just give me another point from which the system
could leak. But the concern about corrosion is very real--just one look at
the 52 from England that had the bottle explode is enough to convince me!
=0A=0ABest,=0A=0AScott=0A=0Adoug sapp wrote:=0A> As always your mileage may
vary but the thought of a rusted or corroded air bottle exploding in a air
craft really chills my crap!, in my mind it is simply is not worth the chan
ce.- Add to this the fact that your pushing all the moisture and gunk int
o your expensive start valve and check valves which is just not a good deal
even if you have replaced all the springs with stainless steel.- IMHO th
e added cost of a snot valve AND a dessicant filter will save you a bunch o
f money and trouble down the road.- =0A> Always Yakin,=0A> Doug=0A> =0A>
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Scott Poehlmann <scott-p@texas.net <mailto
Scott Poehlmann <scott-p@texas.net=0A>- - <mailto:scott-p@texas.net>>
=0A> =0A>- - Hi Anthony,=0A> =0A>- - Since the volume of the bottle
(and the whole system, in fact) on=0A>- - the 55 is so low, many do no
t have separate snot valves. Mine for=0A>- - example only has the valve
on the bottom of the tank. I dutifully=0A>- - open it slightly and dra
in out the gunk about once a week or so=0A>- - (and you don't need to c
ompletely drain the system, though until=0A>- - you get used to doing i
t quickly, be prepared to refill the air=0A>- - system), and at each an
nual I use that valve to drain the entire=0A>- - system. It is also the
lowest point in the system, so that's where=0A>- - the gunk ends up.
=0A> =0A>- - Scott=0A> =0A> =0A>- - Yak 55M wrote:=0A> =0A>- -
- - Hi,=0A> =0A>- - - - I have finally secured almost everythin
g I need to add a=0A>- - - - compressor to my Yak55M, but I am miss
ing one more item - a=0A>- - - - snot valve.- It seems this littl
e item is difficult to get.=0A>- - - - - Any lines on where I can
get a snot valve would be greatly=0A>- - - - appreciated.=0A> =0A>
- - - - Thanks in advance,=0A> =0A>- - - - Anthony.=0A> =0A
>- - - - BTW, thanks for all of the advice in finding the sheer=0A>
- - - - coupling and gauge, this list made it happen.=0A>- -
- - *=0A> =0A> =0A>- - - - *=0A> =0A> =0A>- - ====
========0A>- - rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Yak-List=0A>- - ============0A>- - h
ttp://forums.matronics.com=0A>- - ============0A>
- - le, List Admin.=0A>- - ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/con
tribution=0A>- - ============0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>
=0A> =0A> =0A> -- Always Yakin,=0A> Doug Sapp=0A> Phone 509-826-4610=0A> Fa
========================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: yak 52 fuel instrument |
Sent to YAK List and to Personal =0A=0ARob, when you use the term "Floating
Inductor" in your description of how this system works... do you mean "Flo
at" as in "not connecting to anything electrically" ???- Or "Float" as in
"it is actually an inductor enclosed in a housing that actually FLOATS up
and down with the amount of fuel in the tank?- =0A=0AIf the latter, I see
how how the fuel level can change phase angle without capacitance.- If t
he system has absolutely no moving parts at ALL, the only system I have eve
r studied that can do that is with capacitance.- =0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Rob Rowe <yak-list@robrowe.plus
.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:23:15 PM
=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument=0A=0A--> Yak-List message
posted by: "Rob Rowe" <yak-list@robrowe.plus.com>=0A=0AFYI - this link is t
o a thread from 2006 on the same topic ...=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com
/viewtopic.php?t=11961=0A=0AOut of curiosity I'll see if there are any fa
ulty units in the UK that I can take a peek inside.=0A=0ARob R.=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.
=
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: yak 52 fuel instrument |
If this helps. I have tried two instruments with the same results. I
get 60 l at full then when some fuel burns down a full jump to 25 L
then when low on fuel a jump back to 60L. No lights even fliker as the
fuel drops. With one instrument the jump is to 25L. With the other
the jump is to 40L. The left side works proper with both instruments.
Makes me think sender or harness. Any ideas before I yank the tank?
Perhaps some ideas about the sender or the connection. Doesn't seem
like a float problem to me since the jump between 60 and 25 then back
to 60 isbrepeatable and consistent. Tks Steve.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 24, 2009, at 8:02 PM, Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Rob, I read your writeup. Well written as usual. Is it possible
> that instead of the fuel causing a phase shift in the inductive
> fields of these coils that instead the fuel changes the dielectric
> value and thus changes the capacitance between the inductors
> discussed (outer and inner) which then changes phase angle? If so,
> I get the idea. If not, then I simply do not understand how it
> could work at all.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> From: Rob Rowe <yak-list@robrowe.plus.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:23:15 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument
>
>
> FYI - this link is to a thread from 2006 on the same topic ...
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=11961
>
> Out of curiosity I'll see if there are any faulty units in the UK
> that I can take a peek inside.
>
> Rob R.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245161#245161
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: yak 52 fuel instrument |
I have handeled the yak52 sensor and there is a physical float in a
tube. Steve
Sent from my iPhone
On May 24, 2009, at 8:20 PM, Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sent to YAK List and to Personal
>
> Rob, when you use the term "Floating Inductor" in your description
> of how this system works... do you mean "Float" as in "not
> connecting to anything electrically" ??? Or "Float" as in "it is
> actually an inductor enclosed in a housing that actually FLOATS up
> and down with the amount of fuel in the tank?
>
> If the latter, I see how how the fuel level can change phase angle
> without capacitance. If the system has absolutely no moving parts
> at ALL, the only system I have ever studied that can do that is with
> capacitance.
>
> Mark
>
> From: Rob Rowe <yak-list@robrowe.plus.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:23:15 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument
>
>
> FYI - this link is to a thread from 2006 on the same topic ...
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=11961
>
> Out of curiosity I'll see if there are any faulty units in the UK
> that I can take a peek inside.
>
> Rob R.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245161#245161
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: yak 52 fuel instrument |
Rob, you wrote this on a former posting, and I think I get it now!=C2-
=0A=C2-=0AQuote:=0A=9CThe fuel level sensing is clever, but relativ
ely complex ... each fuel sender has a 10Khz square wave primary signal ind
uced into four embedded secondary parallel coils (each with a different win
ding). =0A=0AOn the outside of the fuel sender is a floating inductor that
creates a unique combination of "phases" in the four secondary coils depend
ing on the fuel level. =0A=0AThe display unit then decodes the unique phase
combinations into a specific fuel bar light ... no electrical moving parts
to wear out or spark, no calibration required, accurate to +/- 5mm of fuel
tank level under normal operating conditions.=9D=0AEnd quote: =0A=C2
-=0AWhat confused me was the use of the term =9Cfloat=9D whic
h to me meant one thing, and to you it meant the real definition of
=9Cfloat=9D as in =9Cride on the surface of a fluid=9D.
=C2- Sorry, my mistake.=C2- =0A=C2-=0ABasically what I see in my mind
here is close to the classic synchro design with AC excitation, but instea
d of three phases, it uses four.=C2- The interesting part is indeed the s
liding inductor which I see as not only changing the phase angle of the fou
r separate field levels, but would it not make sense that it would also imp
act the vector sum of these fields? Think of it as the sending unit being a
synchro transmitter (except with four phases instead of three), the floati
ng inductor as the normal =9Crotating device=9D in a synchro tr
ansmitter, but in this case a vertical movement, that never-the-less would
impact the field phase and strength the same way, and the fuel level displa
y instrument as being the synchro receiver.=C2- My guess is that the disp
lay circuitry is also being fed with the same 10 Khz =9Cexcitation
=9D so that it can reference it?=C2- =C2-=C2-=0A=C2-=0AChecking
the fuel float transmitter could be done using a 10 Khz excitation signal a
nd then monitoring the outputs on a scope (not sure if there is one output
wire or four, . Or more?=C2- I am still weak on that, but anyway
a multi-channel scope should be able to display these signals sim
ultaneously and as you move the float level up and down they should be line
ar in their change, and it would be easy to see where the problem was/is.
=C2- =0A=C2-=0ABut that takes us down to this I can see where
I could build something to check the probe and give a pass/fail to it
but REPAIRING it, well that would be another story entirely.=C2- =0A
=C2-=0AThis takes us back down the classic path of these aircraft.=C2-
Repair it, replace it, or re-design it.=C2- I am not sure at this point w
hat the best path is.=C2- I think that the design could be duplicated, bu
t at the low failure rate I have seen on this device, I question the value
of doing it.=C2- What is your view? =0A=C2-=0AMark Bitterlich=0A=C2-
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Rob Rowe <yak-list@
robrowe.plus.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, May 24, 2009
2:23:15 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument=0A=0A--> Yak-Li
st message posted by: "Rob Rowe" <yak-list@robrowe.plus.com>=0A=0AFYI - thi
s link is to a thread from 2006 on the same topic ...=0A=0Ahttp://forums.ma
tronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=11961=0A=0AOut of curiosity I'll see if there
are any faulty units in the UK that I can take a peek inside.=0A=0ARob R.
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.co
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - List Contribution Web Site -=0A
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-
==================
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: yak 52 fuel instrument |
Steve, =0A=C2-=0AI am working from an unproven assumption on how this sys
tem works, but I THINK I am starting to get a handle on it.=C2- Maybe not
100%, but with the valuable information provided by Rob Rowe, I
think I get it.=C2- The one thing I still need is a full schematic showin
g exactly how many wires are running from =9Chere to there=9D.
=C2- But Rob addressed that in his previous posting which I am going to q
uote here.=C2- =0A=C2-=0ARob Rowe says:=C2- =0A=C2-=0AQuote:=0AProb
ably worth you checking the connections at both ends of the cable (not sure
how you access the fuel sender though) - there are 7 wires ... earth + 4 s
econdary coil outputs + 2 primary coil inputs. =0A=0AI'm not sure of the fo
llowing as I can only infer the connections from the schematic ... =0A=0ASe
nder - Pins 9 / 10 primary winding, Pins 1 - 5 (4 off) secondary winding &
earth =0A=0ADisplay - Pins 1 / 2 primary winding, Pins 3 - 7 (4 off) second
ary winding & earth =0A=0AThere are also intermediate canon plugs located a
t "Station 4 outside" labeled "1-20" for left tank & "1-21" for the right t
ank. =0A=0AI've attached a high level schematic of the above ... note there
is an error in that the primary coils are shown as having a common earth,
in fact they have a dedicated return line to the 10Khz generator (as per th
e pin description). =0AUnquote:=0A=C2-=0AI absolutely concur on what Rob
has said.=C2- Your problem could VERY easily be attributed to wiring.=C2
- The way this system works, it could easily do exactly what your system
is doing given a missing phase wire.=C2- I mean EXACTLY.=C2- =0A=C2-
=0AAsk Dennis how these wires connect to the tank sending unit, I have no i
dea.=C2- However, you need to check each and every one of them, and I str
ongly suspect they are going to be shielded wires make sure you no
t only check the wires end to end, but also for any shorts from center cond
uctor to shield.=C2- Look for bad terminals on the wires due to corrosion
, etc.=C2- Russian wire simply is not nearly as good as our Teflon grade
aircraft wire, so be careful to check these wires carefully.=C2- A TDR wo
uld sure be nice for this task, but I doubt one is available.. if it is, us
e it!=C2- =0A=C2-=0ALastly, if we can get a diagram, you will probably
have to pull the fuel sending unit.=C2- Checking that is something I have
some ideas on, but right now the best you could do might be to ca
refully check the resistance of the four field windings and make sure they
are identical.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AIn fact, =C2-you just have to have the s
chematic that Rob has. =C2-(So do I!) =C2-Given that you could run ohm
checks between one side and the other, which MIGHT be helpful.=C2-=C2-
=C2- =0A=C2-=0ASteve, this is probably not going to be very easy
unless you want to just dive bomb the probe and hope you get lucky.=C2
-=C2-=C2-Hey... and you might!=C2- =C2-=0A=C2-=0AMark Bitterlic
h=0A=C2-=0Ap.s. Down the road I am thinking very positively that the way
to check problems like this is going to be to use a scope with the trigger
set to external and referenced to the 10 Khz excitation signal and then sim
ply using the scope probe to look at the signals from each sending unit.=C2
- That would tell you immediately which wire, or which field winding in t
he probe was defective.=C2- If you can find a person well versed in AC an
d Synchro theory with a good scope... you could do that right now.=C2-
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Stephen Morrey <ste
phenmorrey@gmail.com>=0ATo: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.co
m>=0ASent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:27:53 PM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: yak
52 fuel instrument=0A=0A=0AIf this helps. I have tried two instruments wit
h the same results. I get 60 l at full then when some fuel burns down=C2-
a full jump to 25 L then when low on fuel a jump back to 60L. No lights eve
n fliker as the fuel drops. =C2-With one instrument the jump is to 25L. W
ith the other the jump is to 40L. The left side works proper with both inst
ruments. Makes me think sender or harness. Any ideas before I yank the tank
? =C2-Perhaps some ideas about the sender or the connection. Doesn't seem
like a float problem to me since the jump between 60 and 25 then back to 6
0 isbrepeatable and consistent. Tks Steve. =C2-=0A=0ASent from my iPhone
=0A=0AOn May 24, 2009, at 8:02 PM, Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A
=0A=0ARob, I read your writeup.=C2- Well written as usual.=C2- Is it po
ssible that instead of the fuel causing a phase shift in the inductive fiel
ds of these coils that instead the fuel changes the dielectric value and th
us changes the capacitance between the inductors discussed (outer and inner
) which then changes phase angle?=C2-=C2- If so, I get the idea.=C2-
If not, then I simply do not understand how it could work at all.=C2- =0A
=0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0AFrom: Rob Rowe <yak-list@robrowe.plus.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:23:15 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: yak 52 fu
rowe.plus.com>=0A=0AFYI - this link is to a thread from 2006 on the same to
pic ...=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=11961=0A=0AOut o
f curiosity I'll see if there are any faulty units in the UK that I can tak
e a peek inside.=0A=0ARob R.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A
=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245161#245161=0A=0A=0A=0A
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.ma
tronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matr
-========================
=================
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: yak 52 fuel instrument |
Mark,
Yep ... float as in fishing variety.
The term "phase" is literally translated from the Russian schematic, I suspect
it may in fact be as simple as in-phase or anti-phase i.e. 180 degrees out, compared
to the source square wave.
In the PDF diagram (in my 2006 post) I tried to faithfully replicate the Russian
high level schematic drawing of the sender unit coil windings, as these are
worth studying.
It suggests the secondary coils each have unique coil winding patterns that (depending
on the fuel level float position) induce an in-phase or anti-phase signal
accordingly ... in logic terms a "1" or "0" (perhaps I should say "1" or "-1"
in this case).
With 4 secondary coils outputs this suggests 2 to the power 4 i.e. 16, unique combinations
(fuel levels) could be deduced ... and the fuel display only employs
10 discrete levels (the top & bottom display levels are non-linear so some
combinations may not be used)
The schematics gave no description of how the display decodes the input signals
(it simply refers to to them as "phase detectors"), but if I'm right about the
logic approach it could be as simple as charging or discharging a capacitor
per secondary winding input line. Then using the resultant voltage to drive a
Schmitt triggered (transistor?) logic array to control the display lights.
Given capacitors don't tend to age gracefully they could well be a likely failure
point ... anyway this is all conjecture until we can take one apart as I may
be guilty of making the evidence fit a desired outcome here.
FWIW - I agree that using a scope is probably the easiest way to check the wiring
/ sender operation ... my new Rigol DSO recently arrived from China, time to
try it out!
brgds, Rob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245213#245213
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: yak 52 fuel instrument |
I can not retrieve that diagram Rob.=C2- Can I please ask you to send it
=C2-theory:=C2- =0A=C2-=0ALet=99s talk about this. Your said:
=0A=9CIt suggests the secondary coils each have unique coil winding p
atterns that (depending on the fuel level float position) induce an in-phas
e or anti-phase signal accordingly ... in logic terms a "1" or "0" (perhaps
I should say "1" or "-1" in this case).=0A=0AWith 4 secondary coils output
s this suggests 2 to the power 4 i.e. 16, unique combinations (fuel levels)
could be deduced ... and the fuel display only employs 10 discrete levels
(the top & bottom display levels are non-linear so some combinations may no
t be used)=9D =0A=C2-=0AOK. =0A=C2-=0AIf it operated like this,
=C2- I find it difficult to understand how a known good display instrumen
t could read properly when full, then drop suddenly to a low value as fuel
is used, and then most importantly go back up to a HIGH value as still more
fuel is used.=C2- A system of progressive binary discretes, no matter ho
w they are obtained, is hard to theorize how such results could be obtainab
le.=C2- =0A=C2-=0AIf we take your theory and apply it, my thought would
be a failure mode where certain indicator lights might not work, where it
might even read the wrong value, but how in the world could it go down to a
low value and then jump back up to a higher one?=C2- =0A=C2-=0ALet
=99s study the binary numbers themselves:=C2- =0A=C2-=0A0000=0A0001
=0A0010=0A0011=0A0100=0A0101=0A0110=0A0111=0A1000=0A1001=0A1010=0A1011=0A11
00=0A1101=0A1110=0A1111=C2- =0A=C2-=0ASee what I mean?=C2- If you per
manently alter any bit of the four bit binary word, it can not go down and
then back up again.=C2- Or am I missing something?=C2- =0A=C2-=0AMy t
hought (pure assumption only and with no substantiation), is that the key w
ord is (as you have already said)=C2-=C2-=9Cphase=9D.=C2-
=C2- With a phase driven system, it is entirely possible for the display
system to actually go backwards at certain points if one or more phases is
missing or altered=0A=C2-=0AYou said: =0A=9Canyway this is all conj
ecture until we can take one apart as I may be guilty of making the evidenc
e fit a desired outcome here.=9D=0A=C2-=0AYeah, me too.. in spades.
=C2- =0A=C2-=0AMark=0A=C2-=0Ap.s.=C2- The scope is the answer.=C2
- Looks like you will beat me to it.=C2-=C2-=C2- =0A=C2-=0Ap.p.s.
"Rigol DSO?"=C2-Tektronix rules!=C2- Well, OK... maybe HP once in awhil
e.=C2- :-)=C2- =0A=C2-=0A-------------=0A=C2-From: Rob Rowe <yak-li
st@robrowe.plus.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, May 24, 2
009 10:08:47 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: yak 52 fuel instrument=0A=0A--> Ya
k-List message posted by: "Rob Rowe" <yak-list@robrowe.plus.com>=0A=0AMark,
=0A=0AYep ... float as in fishing variety.=0A=0AThe term "phase" is literal
ly translated from the Russian schematic, I suspect it may in fact be as si
mple as in-phase or anti-phase i.e. 180 degrees out, compared to the source
square wave.=0A=0AIn the PDF diagram (in my 2006 post) I tried to faithful
ly replicate the Russian high level schematic drawing of the sender unit co
il windings, as these are worth studying.=0A=0AIt suggests the secondary co
ils each have unique coil winding patterns that (depending on the fuel leve
l float position) induce an in-phase or anti-phase signal accordingly ... i
n logic terms a "1" or "0" (perhaps I should say "1" or "-1" in this case).
=0A=0AWith 4 secondary coils outputs this suggests 2 to the power 4 i.e. 16
, unique combinations (fuel levels) could be deduced ... and the fuel displ
ay only employs 10 discrete levels (the top & bottom display levels are non
-linear so some combinations may not be used)=0A=0AThe schematics gave no d
escription of how the display decodes the input signals=C2- (it simply re
fers to to them as "phase detectors"), but if I'm right about the logic app
roach it could be as simple as charging or discharging a capacitor per seco
ndary winding input line. Then using the resultant voltage to drive a Schmi
tt triggered (transistor?) logic array to control the display lights. =0A
=0AGiven capacitors don't tend to age gracefully they could well be a likel
y failure point ... anyway this is all conjecture until we can take one apa
rt as I may be guilty of making the evidence fit a desired outcome here.=0A
=0AFWIW - I agree that using a scope is probably the easiest way to check t
he wiring / sender operation ... my new Rigol DSO recently arrived from Chi
na, time to try it out!=0A=0Abrgds, Rob
Message 13
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Cecil,
I have a similar set up except I kept the Russian Com and Intercom both and
I can switch between each side. The American side is a P1000 and SL30 and
has a PTT for the com on the stick. The P1000 is VOX. There is a switch in
each cockpit labeled American / Russian. Both switches have to be in the
same position for the pits to talk. It is not as sleek as running both
radios off of one IC but it is much simpler to install. Works well as long
as both occupants are briefed.
Scott
N8252
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of aero49
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 8:30 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 PTT
I'm planning to install an SL30 and keep the Russian radio in place as #2.
Want to use P.S. engineering PMA 4000 as a primary PTT type intercom and to
switch between radios.
The PMA 4000 only provides a single lead to each com thru which a ground is
applied to transmit.
Anyone know if the Russian PTT swith closes a circuit to the Russian Com or
if it just applies a ground the com?
any info on this application would be appreciated.
Cecil Boyd
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=245091#245091
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