Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:39 AM - Re: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire (A. Dennis Savarese)
2. 06:01 AM - Re: M14P magneto (N395V)
3. 06:32 AM - Re: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire (Joe Howse)
4. 06:56 AM - Re: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 07:13 AM - Re: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire (SC)
6. 11:05 AM - Leeward Home for Sale (Ernest Martinez)
7. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: M14P magneto (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
8. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: M14P magneto (Tom Elliott)
9. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: M14P magneto (Roger Kemp M.D.)
10. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: M14P magneto (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
11. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: M14P magneto (A. Dennis Savarese)
12. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: M14P magneto (cjpilot710@aol.com)
13. 07:15 PM - Re: Re: M14P magneto (Michael Beach)
14. 10:24 PM - Re: Re: M14P magneto (Walter Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire |
Doug may have a Chinese 400 - 150 tire. If he doesn't, Desser is your
only choice, unfortunately.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: NebraskaYak
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 9:34 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire
<andrew.malousek@comcast.net>
Looking at needing a new nosewheel tire for my Yak 52. Is the Desser
400-150 my only option? Thanks in advance for the help.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249619#249619
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| Subject: | Re: M14P magneto |
> his Mag is dearer than all others.
>
> I notice that you sign off with radial rocket.
> A number of years back I was extremely interested in building one and sent
> emails to the advertised site with never a reply.
>
>
Yep dear and proud, ain't nuthin cheap over here anymore.
You might contact George Coy at Geosoco Inc. A few years ago he had a working prototype
of an electronic ignition insert for the M9 mag.
The Radial Rocket is an awsome airplane unfortunately the kit makers just aren't
on top of their game when it cpomes to marketing and response to inquiries..
Hope you get back in the air soon.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249646#249646
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire |
If Doug is out of nose tires I have few.
Joe
---
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire |
How much Joe?
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Howse
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire
If Doug is out of nose tires I have few.
Joe
---
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| Subject: | Re: Yak 52 Nosewheel Tire |
Try Doug Sapp - I got my Yak 18T tyres from him
BigglesUSA
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| Subject: | Leeward Home for Sale |
My home is still for sale @ Leeward Air Ranch pice reduced to $610k ,
http://www.gscinc.com and http://www.forsalebyowner.com/listing/97DF1
Ernie
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: M14P magneto |
Pappy, is this a case where the Chinese Mag had a spark advance
mechanism and used variable spark timing, and the other one (The M9) ran
FIXED spark timing?
I am not sure if that is the case or not. I know that some of these
mags run variable timing and some run fixed. Running two variables, or
running two fixed would be fine, but running an engine with one that has
variable spark timing and one that has fixed spark timing would allow
the engine to have the plugs firing at two different times in the same
cylinder and that would be a bad thing.
This actually happened with one M-14PF leading to a really difficult to
diagnose high performance problem at full throttle. Turned out to be a
mixed mag problem like described above.
Not being familiar with the Chinese mags at all, I do not know which
type of operation they use honestly. If they are fixed timing mags with
just a slightly different adjustment procedure, then heck yes... No
problem mixing them with Russian mags. But if one is a variable timing
mag, and one is a fixed timing mag, that would not be a good thing to do
other than maybe in a "GET IT HOME" kind of emergency... And to be
honest if I did that, I would fly it on one or the other mag during the
flight home and not on BOTH.
Just my 2 cents,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
In a message dated 6/22/2009 6:31:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wise@txc.net.au writes:
Chris,
You know you can use a mag off the HS-6 Chinese engine, if you can fine
one. You time it a little differently. At one point I ran my M-14p
with one Russian mag and one Chinese mag. Worked fine, until I was able
to get one Russian mag back from overhauled. At one point I ran the
M-14 on just Chinese mags. I honestly could not tell the difference.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
G'Day Milt,
Thanks for sendingme the link to Steve Culp's site.
I had already looked there and his Mag is dearer than all
others.
I notice that you sign off with radial rocket.
A number of years back I was extremely interested in building
one and sent
emails to the advertised site with never a reply.
Man, they look to be a awesome ship.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "N395V" <Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 11:24 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
<Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
>
> Look here
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-14P-M9F-Mag-Radial-Russian_W0QQcmdZView
ItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a8Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em1
4Q2el1262QQhashZitem1c049d394eQQitemZ120336496974QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ
5fPartsQ5fGear
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249511#249511
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Checked by AVG -
================================================e ties Day
================================================ -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===============================================
- List Contribution Web Site sp;
==================================================
________________________________
Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes
<http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000004> for the grill.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: M14P magneto |
The centrifugal advance system in the Chinese MAG and some of the Russians
appears to reach the max advance
considerably before reaching top RPM. So the timing i.e. max advance if set
correctly would be the same. It
seems the reason for the centrifugal advance was for easer starting and
smoother idle.
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 11:17 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, is this a case where the Chinese Mag had a spark advance mechanism
and used variable spark timing, and the other one (The M9) ran FIXED spark
timing?
I am not sure if that is the case or not. I know that some of these mags
run variable timing and some run fixed. Running two variables, or running
two fixed would be fine, but running an engine with one that has variable
spark timing and one that has fixed spark timing would allow the engine to
have the plugs firing at two different times in the same cylinder and that
would be a bad thing.
This actually happened with one M-14PF leading to a really difficult to
diagnose high performance problem at full throttle. Turned out to be a
mixed mag problem like described above.
Not being familiar with the Chinese mags at all, I do not know which type of
operation they use honestly. If they are fixed timing mags with just a
slightly different adjustment procedure, then heck yes... No problem mixing
them with Russian mags. But if one is a variable timing mag, and one is a
fixed timing mag, that would not be a good thing to do other than maybe in a
"GET IT HOME" kind of emergency... And to be honest if I did that, I would
fly it on one or the other mag during the flight home and not on BOTH.
Just my 2 cents,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
In a message dated 6/22/2009 6:31:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wise@txc.net.au writes:
Chris,
You know you can use a mag off the HS-6 Chinese engine, if you can fine one.
You time it a little differently. At one point I ran my M-14p with one
Russian mag and one Chinese mag. Worked fine, until I was able to get one
Russian mag back from overhauled. At one point I ran the
M-14 on just Chinese mags. I honestly could not tell the difference.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
G'Day Milt,
Thanks for sendingme the link to Steve Culp's site.
I had already looked there and his Mag is dearer than all others.
I notice that you sign off with radial rocket.
A number of years back I was extremely interested in building one and
sent
emails to the advertised site with never a reply.
Man, they look to be a awesome ship.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "N395V" <Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 11:24 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
<Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
>
> Look here
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-14P-M9F-Mag-Radial-Russian_W0QQcmdZView
ItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a8Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em1
4Q2el1262QQhashZitem1c049d394eQQitemZ120336496974QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ
5fPartsQ5fGear
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249511#249511
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Checked by AVG -
================================================e ties Day
================================================ -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===============================================
- List Contribution Web Site sp;
==================================================
________________________________
Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes
<http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000004> for the grill.
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: M14P magneto |
Been there...done that with a M-9PF and M-9 mix. Did not run worth a crap at
full throttle!
Seems some zipperhead in the home country in a effort to make a buck ground
the bossing off the case designating it a PF mag and I got it as a M-9 mag.
Talk about headaches sorting that crap out!
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:17 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, is this a case where the Chinese Mag had a spark advance
mechanism and used variable spark timing, and the other one (The M9) ran
FIXED spark timing?
I am not sure if that is the case or not. I know that some of these
mags run variable timing and some run fixed. Running two variables, or
running two fixed would be fine, but running an engine with one that has
variable spark timing and one that has fixed spark timing would allow
the engine to have the plugs firing at two different times in the same
cylinder and that would be a bad thing.
This actually happened with one M-14PF leading to a really difficult to
diagnose high performance problem at full throttle. Turned out to be a
mixed mag problem like described above.
Not being familiar with the Chinese mags at all, I do not know which
type of operation they use honestly. If they are fixed timing mags with
just a slightly different adjustment procedure, then heck yes... No
problem mixing them with Russian mags. But if one is a variable timing
mag, and one is a fixed timing mag, that would not be a good thing to do
other than maybe in a "GET IT HOME" kind of emergency... And to be
honest if I did that, I would fly it on one or the other mag during the
flight home and not on BOTH.
Just my 2 cents,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
In a message dated 6/22/2009 6:31:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wise@txc.net.au writes:
Chris,
You know you can use a mag off the HS-6 Chinese engine, if you can fine
one. You time it a little differently. At one point I ran my M-14p
with one Russian mag and one Chinese mag. Worked fine, until I was able
to get one Russian mag back from overhauled. At one point I ran the
M-14 on just Chinese mags. I honestly could not tell the difference.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
G'Day Milt,
Thanks for sendingme the link to Steve Culp's site.
I had already looked there and his Mag is dearer than all
others.
I notice that you sign off with radial rocket.
A number of years back I was extremely interested in building
one and sent
emails to the advertised site with never a reply.
Man, they look to be a awesome ship.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "N395V" <Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 11:24 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
<Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
>
> Look here
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-14P-M9F-Mag-Radial-Russian_W0QQcmdZView
ItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a8Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em1
4Q2el1262QQhashZitem1c049d394eQQitemZ120336496974QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ
5fPartsQ5fGear
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249511#249511
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Checked by AVG -
================================================e ties Day
================================================ -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===============================================
- List Contribution Web Site sp;
==================================================
________________________________
Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes
<http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000004> for the grill.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: M14P magneto |
Tom,
The M-9F mag does not have a centrifugal advance mechanism at all. It
is a fixed mag. As Dennis Savarese pointed out: " That would be an
M9-F magneto which has a fixed timing setting of 14-16 degrees before
TDC."
Any mag that DOES have a centrifugal advance mechanism in it will vary
the point where the spark plug fires in relation to the piston position
to top dead center as it moves to the fully advanced position. Thus
during portions of the engine RPM range, the two spark plugs will be
firing at different times. There is just no way around it. So, it is
NEVER a good idea to use one mag with fixed timing and the other with
variable timing.
But, if you really wanted to do that, a person could take the variable
timing mag apart, move the advance mechanism to full advance, and then
set that mag to match the firing point of the fixed timing mag, so that
at wide open throttle, the two mags would fire the two spark plugs at
exactly the same time, this would then cure the full power problem. But
of course, then you would simply MOVE the problem to a different RPM
range where once gain as the variable spark timing .... VARIED ..... It
would no longer be synchronous with the other mag. Simply put, how do
you take two mags, one with variable spark timing and one with fixed
spark timing, and get them both to fire the spark plugs at the same time
through-out the whole RPM range.
Answer: You don't.
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that each different type of mag
comes with it's own set of written procedures on how to set the overall
timing of the mag in relation to the piston position on the master
timing cylinder. There is one set of procedures for the FIXED mag, and
ANOTHER set of procedures for the VARIABLE mag.
Like I said, if you understood the problem in advance, you could come up
with your OWN procedures that could make the two mags work more or less
together at any certain RPM, including full throttle, but never
throughout the WHOLE range.
In the case of the subject engine that had the performance problem, each
mag was timed the way each mag (individually) was SUPPOSED to be timed,
and the result was that both of them were not firing at the same time
when the engine was at maximum RPM.
There are indeed RUSSIAN MAGS that also have variable spark timing. If
you used a Russian Mag with variable mag timing, and a Chinese Mag with
variable valve timing, you still would have to consider the variable
timing rate of change and amount of change, (this is called the timing
curve) and make sure they were matched. In order to do that, you would
typically spin both units on a machine that would measure these curves,
which is exactly how we used to do it on old racing cars with variable
advance.
Starting is not an issue with these engines since a completely different
system is used with it's own coil and it's own rotor point, and the
advance is not controlled in any way by the variable mechanism.
Yes, the variable advance will give a smoother idle, and also a better
transition from low to medium power, especially during very rapid
transitions of the throttle. Both were important, but in cars, the
smooth transition was the major concern. In airplanes, you can actually
live without any of it, as long as you don't get too eager with the
throttle movement, as evidenced by the fact that the M-9F mag actually
works pretty well.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Elliott
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
The centrifugal advance system in the Chinese MAG and some of the
Russians appears to reach the max advance considerably before reaching
top RPM. So the timing i.e. max advance if set correctly would be the
same. It seems the reason for the centrifugal advance was for easer
starting and smoother idle.
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 11:17 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, is this a case where the Chinese Mag had a spark advance
mechanism and used variable spark timing, and the other one (The M9) ran
FIXED spark timing?
I am not sure if that is the case or not. I know that some of these
mags run variable timing and some run fixed. Running two variables, or
running two fixed would be fine, but running an engine with one that has
variable spark timing and one that has fixed spark timing would allow
the engine to have the plugs firing at two different times in the same
cylinder and that would be a bad thing.
This actually happened with one M-14PF leading to a really difficult to
diagnose high performance problem at full throttle. Turned out to be a
mixed mag problem like described above.
Not being familiar with the Chinese mags at all, I do not know which
type of operation they use honestly. If they are fixed timing mags with
just a slightly different adjustment procedure, then heck yes... No
problem mixing them with Russian mags. But if one is a variable timing
mag, and one is a fixed timing mag, that would not be a good thing to do
other than maybe in a "GET IT HOME" kind of emergency... And to be
honest if I did that, I would fly it on one or the other mag during the
flight home and not on BOTH.
Just my 2 cents,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
In a message dated 6/22/2009 6:31:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wise@txc.net.au writes:
Chris,
You know you can use a mag off the HS-6 Chinese engine, if you can fine
one.
You time it a little differently. At one point I ran my M-14p with one
Russian mag and one Chinese mag. Worked fine, until I was able to get
one Russian mag back from overhauled. At one point I ran the
M-14 on just Chinese mags. I honestly could not tell the difference.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
G'Day Milt,
Thanks for sendingme the link to Steve Culp's site.
I had already looked there and his Mag is dearer than all others.
I notice that you sign off with radial rocket.
A number of years back I was extremely interested in building one
and sent
emails to the advertised site with never a reply.
Man, they look to be a awesome ship.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "N395V" <Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 11:24 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
<Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
>
> Look here
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-14P-M9F-Mag-Radial-Russian_W0QQcmdZView
ItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a8Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em1
4Q2el1262QQhashZitem1c049d394eQQitemZ120336496974QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ
5fPartsQ5fGear
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249511#249511
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Checked by AVG -
================================================e ties Day
================================================ -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ===============================================
- List Contribution Web Site sp;
==================================================
________________________________
Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes
<http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000004> for the grill.
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: M14P magneto |
FWIW, the Russian mag (M9-35) with variable or centrifugal advance
timing is timed based on a number stamped in the boss of the mag under
the top cover and cross referenced to a manufacturer's timing chart.
Virtually all of the M9-35 mags are timed AFTER top dead center.
Typically close to 5 degrees after TDC. Now on the other hand, the
Chinese mags, which are also variable or centrifugal advance timing are
also based on a number stamped in the boss of the mag under the top
cover and cross referenced to a timing chart. However, these mags,
after cross referencing the numbers on the mag to the chart, are timed
BEFORE top dead center. Typically in the 7-8 degree range before TDC
range. I would think there would be a much better chance of
"reasonable" operation mixing a Chinese mag with a Russian M9-F fixed
timing mag (14-16 degrees BTDC) than mixing an M9-F mag with any M9-35
mag, given the fact that the Chinese mag will probably advance to
somewhere close to the 14-16 degrees BTDC when it is fully advanced.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Tom,
The M-9F mag does not have a centrifugal advance mechanism at all. It
is a fixed mag. As Dennis Savarese pointed out: " That would be an
M9-F magneto which has a fixed timing setting of 14-16 degrees before
TDC."
Any mag that DOES have a centrifugal advance mechanism in it will vary
the point where the spark plug fires in relation to the piston
position
to top dead center as it moves to the fully advanced position. Thus
during portions of the engine RPM range, the two spark plugs will be
firing at different times. There is just no way around it. So, it is
NEVER a good idea to use one mag with fixed timing and the other with
variable timing.
But, if you really wanted to do that, a person could take the variable
timing mag apart, move the advance mechanism to full advance, and then
set that mag to match the firing point of the fixed timing mag, so
that
at wide open throttle, the two mags would fire the two spark plugs at
exactly the same time, this would then cure the full power problem.
But
of course, then you would simply MOVE the problem to a different RPM
range where once gain as the variable spark timing .... VARIED .....
It
would no longer be synchronous with the other mag. Simply put, how do
you take two mags, one with variable spark timing and one with fixed
spark timing, and get them both to fire the spark plugs at the same
time
through-out the whole RPM range.
Answer: You don't.
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that each different type of mag
comes with it's own set of written procedures on how to set the
overall
timing of the mag in relation to the piston position on the master
timing cylinder. There is one set of procedures for the FIXED mag,
and
ANOTHER set of procedures for the VARIABLE mag.
Like I said, if you understood the problem in advance, you could come
up
with your OWN procedures that could make the two mags work more or
less
together at any certain RPM, including full throttle, but never
throughout the WHOLE range.
In the case of the subject engine that had the performance problem,
each
mag was timed the way each mag (individually) was SUPPOSED to be
timed,
and the result was that both of them were not firing at the same time
when the engine was at maximum RPM.
There are indeed RUSSIAN MAGS that also have variable spark timing.
If
you used a Russian Mag with variable mag timing, and a Chinese Mag
with
variable valve timing, you still would have to consider the variable
timing rate of change and amount of change, (this is called the timing
curve) and make sure they were matched. In order to do that, you
would
typically spin both units on a machine that would measure these
curves,
which is exactly how we used to do it on old racing cars with variable
advance.
Starting is not an issue with these engines since a completely
different
system is used with it's own coil and it's own rotor point, and the
advance is not controlled in any way by the variable mechanism.
Yes, the variable advance will give a smoother idle, and also a better
transition from low to medium power, especially during very rapid
transitions of the throttle. Both were important, but in cars, the
smooth transition was the major concern. In airplanes, you can
actually
live without any of it, as long as you don't get too eager with the
throttle movement, as evidenced by the fact that the M-9F mag actually
works pretty well.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Elliott
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 3:17 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
The centrifugal advance system in the Chinese MAG and some of the
Russians appears to reach the max advance considerably before reaching
top RPM. So the timing i.e. max advance if set correctly would be the
same. It seems the reason for the centrifugal advance was for easer
starting and smoother idle.
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 11:17 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, is this a case where the Chinese Mag had a spark advance
mechanism and used variable spark timing, and the other one (The M9)
ran
FIXED spark timing?
I am not sure if that is the case or not. I know that some of these
mags run variable timing and some run fixed. Running two variables,
or
running two fixed would be fine, but running an engine with one that
has
variable spark timing and one that has fixed spark timing would allow
the engine to have the plugs firing at two different times in the same
cylinder and that would be a bad thing.
This actually happened with one M-14PF leading to a really difficult
to
diagnose high performance problem at full throttle. Turned out to be
a
mixed mag problem like described above.
Not being familiar with the Chinese mags at all, I do not know which
type of operation they use honestly. If they are fixed timing mags
with
just a slightly different adjustment procedure, then heck yes... No
problem mixing them with Russian mags. But if one is a variable
timing
mag, and one is a fixed timing mag, that would not be a good thing to
do
other than maybe in a "GET IT HOME" kind of emergency... And to be
honest if I did that, I would fly it on one or the other mag during
the
flight home and not on BOTH.
Just my 2 cents,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:49 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
In a message dated 6/22/2009 6:31:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wise@txc.net.au writes:
Chris,
You know you can use a mag off the HS-6 Chinese engine, if you can
fine
one.
You time it a little differently. At one point I ran my M-14p with
one
Russian mag and one Chinese mag. Worked fine, until I was able to get
one Russian mag back from overhauled. At one point I ran the
M-14 on just Chinese mags. I honestly could not tell the difference.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
G'Day Milt,
Thanks for sendingme the link to Steve Culp's site.
I had already looked there and his Mag is dearer than all others.
I notice that you sign off with radial rocket.
A number of years back I was extremely interested in building one
and sent
emails to the advertised site with never a reply.
Man, they look to be a awesome ship.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "N395V" <Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 11:24 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
<Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
>
> Look here
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-14P-M9F-Mag-Radial-Russian_W0QQcmdZView
ItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a8Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em1
4Q2el1262QQhashZitem1c049d394eQQitemZ120336496974QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ
5fPartsQ5fGear
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249511#249511
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Checked by AVG -
=======================e
ties Day
=======================
-
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
======================
- List Contribution Web Site sp;
________________________________
Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes
<http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000004> for the
grill.
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: M14P magneto |
In a message dated 6/23/2009 2:19:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
Mark & all,
The last thing in the world I want to impress on anyone is that I am an
expert on mags. 54 years ago, my Daddy took one look at my wrenching skills,
and told me to become a pilot. "That way you won't starve to death and
you will not hurt someone".
The real expert (at least the one person I take advice from) is Craig
Payne. He can tell you the difference between the two mags in detail. I sure
Doug & Dennis could also.
I did run my M-14p with mixed mags for a period of time, one set (the
Russian) at its normal timing for the M14P and the CJ-6 mag set at a different
sitting (I forget what). I do know that the Chinese mags allow you to push
the start button with the mags ON, which is not a good idea with the
Russian mags.
I could not really tell any difference in the way the engine ran. I
perhaps put over 20 or more hours on it like that. It started fine, had normal
mag drops during run-up. I could not tell any difference in during normal
power sittings while in cruise. It just acted normal.
I used just Chinese mags on it for quite a while until one day when the
engine started miss firing very badly while in cruise just a 7 nm from home.
After some 300 hours of normal operation on that mag, when I took the cap
off, I found that I could spin the rotor easily with my finger. Taking the
mag apart I found that when the Chinese had overhauled the mag, they had
left out the Woodruff key, that kept the gear from spinning on the shaft.
Only the nut pressure was holding the gear in place and keeping its timing.
After 300 hours or so, the nut finally loosened and the gear slipped. ( I
made that last 7nm on one mag). Except for that missing Woodruff key, the
mag is fine. It'll need to be re-timed internally of course, along with
adding a Woodruff key.
I also used a mag from a 3 cylinder M-14 pump engine. The mag is built
the same way but only has a 3 lobe cam. I took one of the cams from the
Chinese mags and placed in that mag. Fit perfect. The only thing that I
noticed was no matter careful I was at sitting up the timing I always got a 130
to 140 mag drop during run-up. None at high RPM sittings. It was smooth
however. I've put it down to maybe the internal timing on the 3 Cylinder
mag is a little different.
When I finally got my Russian mags over hauled ( a story in it self), I
went back to them.
Quite frankly I believe these damn M-14 will run no matter what you do to
them. I ran my fresh from the factory M-14 for 438 hours with no oil ring
on number 3 piston! I guess it was either a Monday with a Vodka hangover
or Ivan, the FNG, on the line.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, is this a case where the Chinese Mag had a spark advance
mechanism and used variable spark timing, and the other one (The M9) ran
FIXED spark timing?
I am not sure if that is the case or not. I know that some of these
mags run variable timing and some run fixed. Running two variables, or
running two fixed would be fine, but running an engine with one that has
variable spark timing and one that has fixed spark timing would allow
the engine to have the plugs firing at two different times in the same
cylinder and that would be a bad thing.
This actually happened with one M-14PF leading to a really difficult to
diagnose high performance problem at full throttle. Turned out to be a
mixed mag problem like described above.
Not being familiar with the Chinese mags at all, I do not know which
type of operation they use honestly. If they are fixed timing mags with
just a slightly different adjustment procedure, then heck yes... No
problem mixing them with Russian mags. But if one is a variable timing
mag, and one is a fixed timing mag, that would not be a good thing to do
other than maybe in a "GET IT HOME" kind of emergency... And to be
honest if I did that, I would fly it on one or the other mag during the
flight home and not on BOTH.
Just my 2 cents,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
In a message dated 6/22/2009 6:31:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wise@txc.net.au writes:
Chris,
You know you can use a mag off the HS-6 Chinese engine, if you can fine
one. You time it a little differently. At one point I ran my M-14p
with one Russian mag and one Chinese mag. Worked fine, until I was able
to get one Russian mag back from overhauled. At one point I ran the
M-14 on just Chinese mags. I honestly could not tell the difference.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Chris Wise" <wise@txc.net.au>
G'Day Milt,
Thanks for sendingme the link to Steve Culp's site.
I had already looked there and his Mag is dearer than all
others.
I notice that you sign off with radial rocket.
A number of years back I was extremely interested in building
one and sent
emails to the advertised site with never a reply.
Man, they look to be a awesome ship.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "N395V" <Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 11:24 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
**************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the
grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000004)
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: M14P magneto |
Reading the discussion on mags has been interesting but I have a question
for the group has any one replaced the contact points on the CJ mags and if
so where Did you get them ? Is there a automotive replacement ?
REGARDS
MICHAEL BEACH
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: M14P magneto |
The available magnetos are;
1. The M9 ( original Russian mag) This is an Auto advance magneto with
a range of advance from 23 to 27 degs.
2. The Chinese CD5. This a licence built version of the M9 and is
identical in all respects.
3. The Russian M9-25M. An auto advance mag with a range of advance
settings from 23 to 27 degs.
4. The Russian M9-35M. An auto advance mag with a range of advance
settings from 23 to 37 degs.
5. The Russian M9F. A fixed spark magneto, ie; NO auto advance. In this
respect identical in operation to the Bendix SB9RN, SB9RN-4 or the
American Bosch 9 cyl series.
Each engine model derived from the original Ivchenko AI 14R has a
different specification for ignition timing depending on power output,
RPM and minimum specified fuel grade. This is expressed in degrees of
CRANKSHAFT rotation before top dead centre.
M14P spec. is 23 +/- 1 deg.
AI 14R 30 +/- 1 "
HS6 31 +/- 1 "
HS6A 27 +/- 1 " (this may raise some questions as there
are two different references - one the same as the HS6)
Of course there are many other engines in the Ivchenko series in
addition to the above.
Since these are all geared engines and it is convenient to measure from
the propellor shaft the measured angle is a function of the reduction
gear ratio.
The corresponding angle for the M14P is therefore 23 x 0.658 or 15.13
+/- 0.7 degs.
The stock M9F mag on the M14 P is set to that specification and it is a
simple matter to exactly synchronize the two mags.
Synchronizing one M9F to any of the auto advance mags is, at the very
best, a crap shoot. There is simply no way to accurately measure the
precise firing angle of the auto advance mag.
Each individual AA magneto has it's advance setting stamped on the
housing. For the M9, CD5 and M9-25M that is usually 25 degs. BUT not
necessarily. That must be checked at installation and the timing
adjusted accordingly.
I do not know what the usual is for the M9-35M. It can be anywhere from
23 degs to 37degs. Therefore it is not totally accurate to state that
the M9-35M is set to AFTER TDC. It may very well be but that is a
function of the engine specified angle and the individual stamped
setting on the mag.
I'm sure at least two questions will arise from this (if anyone is
really interested).
1. What is the difference between the original M9 and the M9-25M since
they have the same advance range and appear identical?
2. Why the introduction of the M9-35M with a full 10 degs. more range?
Truth is I don't know the answers. But I will speculate on the first.
Maybe someone can correct me and also answer the second..
1. The auto advance mechanism is a set of fly-weights subject to
movement with changing RPM. This is counter-balanced by spring
pressure.
The original engines were of low max. RPM (2250/2350) while the later
M14P and likely others are high RPM (2900).
I would suggest that the fly-weight/spring mechanism has been designed
for different ranges of RPM.
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Dennis Savarese
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
FWIW, the Russian mag (M9-35) with variable or centrifugal advance
timing is timed based on a number stamped in the boss of the mag under
the top cover and cross referenced to a manufacturer's timing chart.
Virtually all of the M9-35 mags are timed AFTER top dead center.
Typically close to 5 degrees after TDC. Now on the other hand, the
Chinese mags, which are also variable or centrifugal advance timing are
also based on a number stamped in the boss of the mag under the top
cover and cross referenced to a timing chart. However, these mags,
after cross referencing the numbers on the mag to the chart, are timed
BEFORE top dead center. Typically in the 7-8 degree range before TDC
range. I would think there would be a much better chance of
"reasonable" operation mixing a Chinese mag with a Russian M9-F fixed
timing mag (14-16 degrees BTDC) than mixing an M9-F mag with any M9-35
mag, given the fact that the Chinese mag will probably advance to
somewhere close to the 14-16 degrees BTDC when it is fully advanced.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Tom,
The M-9F mag does not have a centrifugal advance mechanism at all.
It
is a fixed mag. As Dennis Savarese pointed out: " That would be an
M9-F magneto which has a fixed timing setting of 14-16 degrees
before
TDC."
Any mag that DOES have a centrifugal advance mechanism in it will
vary
the point where the spark plug fires in relation to the piston
position
to top dead center as it moves to the fully advanced position. Thus
during portions of the engine RPM range, the two spark plugs will be
firing at different times. There is just no way around it. So, it
is
NEVER a good idea to use one mag with fixed timing and the other
with
variable timing.
But, if you really wanted to do that, a person could take the
variable
timing mag apart, move the advance mechanism to full advance, and
then
set that mag to match the firing point of the fixed timing mag, so
that
at wide open throttle, the two mags would fire the two spark plugs
at
exactly the same time, this would then cure the full power problem.
But
of course, then you would simply MOVE the problem to a different RPM
range where once gain as the variable spark timing .... VARIED .....
It
would no longer be synchronous with the other mag. Simply put, how
do
you take two mags, one with variable spark timing and one with fixed
spark timing, and get them both to fire the spark plugs at the same
time
through-out the whole RPM range.
Answer: You don't.
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that each different type of
mag
comes with it's own set of written procedures on how to set the
overall
timing of the mag in relation to the piston position on the master
timing cylinder. There is one set of procedures for the FIXED mag,
and
ANOTHER set of procedures for the VARIABLE mag.
Like I said, if you understood the problem in advance, you could
come up
with your OWN procedures that could make the two mags work more or
less
together at any certain RPM, including full throttle, but never
throughout the WHOLE range.
In the case of the subject engine that had the performance problem,
each
mag was timed the way each mag (individually) was SUPPOSED to be
timed,
and the result was that both of them were not firing at the same
time
when the engine was at maximum RPM.
There are indeed RUSSIAN MAGS that also have variable spark timing.
If
you used a Russian Mag with variable mag timing, and a Chinese Mag
with
variable valve timing, you still would have to consider the variable
timing rate of change and amount of change, (this is called the
timing
curve) and make sure they were matched. In order to do that, you
would
typically spin both units on a machine that would measure these
curves,
which is exactly how we used to do it on old racing cars with
variable
advance.
Starting is not an issue with these engines since a completely
different
system is used with it's own coil and it's own rotor point, and the
advance is not controlled in any way by the variable mechanism.
Yes, the variable advance will give a smoother idle, and also a
better
transition from low to medium power, especially during very rapid
transitions of the throttle. Both were important, but in cars, the
smooth transition was the major concern. In airplanes, you can
actually
live without any of it, as long as you don't get too eager with the
throttle movement, as evidenced by the fact that the M-9F mag
actually
works pretty well.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Elliott
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 3:17 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
The centrifugal advance system in the Chinese MAG and some of the
Russians appears to reach the max advance considerably before
reaching
top RPM. So the timing i.e. max advance if set correctly would be
the
same. It seems the reason for the centrifugal advance was for easer
starting and smoother idle.
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 11:17 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Pappy, is this a case where the Chinese Mag had a spark advance
mechanism and used variable spark timing, and the other one (The M9)
ran
FIXED spark timing?
I am not sure if that is the case or not. I know that some of these
mags run variable timing and some run fixed. Running two variables,
or
running two fixed would be fine, but running an engine with one that
has
variable spark timing and one that has fixed spark timing would
allow
the engine to have the plugs firing at two different times in the
same
cylinder and that would be a bad thing.
This actually happened with one M-14PF leading to a really difficult
to
diagnose high performance problem at full throttle. Turned out to
be a
mixed mag problem like described above.
Not being familiar with the Chinese mags at all, I do not know which
type of operation they use honestly. If they are fixed timing mags
with
just a slightly different adjustment procedure, then heck yes... No
problem mixing them with Russian mags. But if one is a variable
timing
mag, and one is a fixed timing mag, that would not be a good thing
to do
other than maybe in a "GET IT HOME" kind of emergency... And to be
honest if I did that, I would fly it on one or the other mag during
the
flight home and not on BOTH.
Just my 2 cents,
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:49 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
In a message dated 6/22/2009 6:31:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wise@txc.net.au writes:
Chris,
You know you can use a mag off the HS-6 Chinese engine, if you can
fine
one.
You time it a little differently. At one point I ran my M-14p with
one
Russian mag and one Chinese mag. Worked fine, until I was able to
get
one Russian mag back from overhauled. At one point I ran the
M-14 on just Chinese mags. I honestly could not tell the
difference.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
G'Day Milt,
Thanks for sendingme the link to Steve Culp's site.
I had already looked there and his Mag is dearer than all
others.
I notice that you sign off with radial rocket.
A number of years back I was extremely interested in building
one
and sent
emails to the advertised site with never a reply.
Man, they look to be a awesome ship.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "N395V" <Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 11:24 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
<Bearcat@bearcataviation.com>
>
> Look here
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-14P-M9F-Mag-Radial-Russian_W0QQcmdZView
ItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a8Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em1
4Q2el1262QQhashZitem1c049d394eQQitemZ120336496974QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ
5fPartsQ5fGear
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
>
>
>
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