Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:50 AM - Re: Tight nuts? (DAVID STROUD)
2. 04:24 AM - Mixed Mags (Cpayne)
3. 09:24 AM - Re: Mixed Mags (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 11:11 AM - Arm Chair B/S (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
5. 11:52 AM - Re: Arm Chair B/S (Jan Mevis)
6. 12:44 PM - Looking for a CJ-6A (Warren Hill)
7. 12:50 PM - Interest in a Central TX formation clinic Aug 6-9 (Joe Enzminger)
8. 12:52 PM - Looking for a CJ-6A (Warren Hill)
9. 01:41 PM - Re: Looking for a CJ-6A (jblake207@COMCAST.NET)
10. 03:47 PM - Re: Looking for a CJ-6A (Jim Selby)
11. 04:33 PM - Re: Looking for a CJ-6A (Warren Hill)
12. 07:53 PM - finance company? (jblake207@COMCAST.NET)
13. 09:53 PM - Re: finance company? (Kurt Howerton)
Message 1
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And if you mix kerosene with a small quantiy to witch hazel,
the nut will practically turn itself off.
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:01 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Tight nuts?
Interesting stuff to my friends that turn a wrench!
Machinist's Workshop magazine actually tested penetrants for break out
torque on rusted nuts. Significant results! They are below, as
forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist, Bud Baker.
*Don't forget the April 2007 "Machinist's Workshop" magazine
comparison test.*
*They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrants with
the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a
"scientifically rusted" environment. *
Penetrating oil ..... Average load*
None ............ ......... 516 pounds
WD-40 ............ ...... 238 pounds
PB Blaster ............ . 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ..... 127 pounds
Kano Kroil ............ 106 pounds
ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds
*The ATF-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic
transmission fluid and acetone.*
*Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this
one
particular test. Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we
all
now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench"
is
about as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price. *
*Your experience may vary, etc., etc.
Shop Popular Dell Laptops now starting at $349!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
06/25/09 06:22:00
Message 2
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I'm the one who installed and timed those mags on Pappy's M-14P when a Chinese
mag was the only option available when we were stuck in Nowhere, GA. I have run
mixed mags, all Russian and all Chinese on my own M-14P engines. My preference
is to use Chinese mags as I never get a starting kickback. Always smooth running.
Also experimented with Split Timing, what seems to work best is even timing. Sure
it will never be Exact but then I'm happy with 10-20 RPM difference in mag
drop. Early this year I updated my magneto timing doc in the RPA store, with a
chapter on using the Chinese mags on the M-14 engine.
Did I mention that the Chinese mag is available as Brand New and priced a lot cheaper
than the M-9F mag? call Doug.
Craig Payne
Message 3
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Craig,
Just a repeat in case there is any confusion. I am not saying one word against
using Chinese Mags, or Russian Mags, or having one Chinese and one Russian.
My concern is focused on running two mags with different DESIGNS, no matter what
country they were made in.
I.E. One with no mechanical advance, and one without mechanical advance, commonly
called a "fixed timing mag".
Running one mag with and one mag without mechanical timing advance opens the door
to problems, and where and when those problems happen can be quite variable.
Doing it in order to get home from "No-Where GA", is of course one thing.
But not as a matter of course or on a regular basis.
I know now of two different people who did that and had problems with their engines
that were very hard to diagnose. Talk to Doc Kemp for one story.
I was not, and am not, saying you timed the engine wrong, or whatever else. I
am saying that no matter how anyone timed it, there are going to be RPM ranges
where both plugs are not firing at the same time, and the difference can be enough
to cause problems.
Of course that being said, I can pretty much guess that some people are going to
do it anyway.... Hey, whatever! But if someone does it, and then some guy
is trying to diagnose a really difficult performance problem dealing with RPM
and power loading, maybe they will remember to check to see if there are "mixed
mag types".
It's not something anyone normally would ever look for, simply because it is not
something anyone would expect to ever find.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 7:23 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Mixed Mags
I'm the one who installed and timed those mags on Pappy's M-14P when a Chinese
mag was the only option available when we were stuck in Nowhere, GA. I have run
mixed mags, all Russian and all Chinese on my own M-14P engines. My preference
is to use Chinese mags as I never get a starting kickback. Always smooth running.
Also experimented with Split Timing, what seems to work best is even timing. Sure
it will never be Exact but then I'm happy with 10-20 RPM difference in mag
drop. Early this year I updated my magneto timing doc in the RPA store, with a
chapter on using the Chinese mags on the M-14 engine.
Did I mention that the Chinese mag is available as Brand New and priced a lot cheaper
than the M-9F mag? call Doug.
Craig Payne
Message 4
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My "arm chair bullshit"?
Real nice Tom.
Two airplanes that did exactly what Pappy did had serious problems at
wide open throttle. Question Doc Kemp for his details. Next, Pappy
ran that combination for 20 hours. TWENTY HOURS. He did not complete
any kind of flight test sequence, he flew normal flight routines and had
nothing bad happen. I believe him and his report completely. And I
said that. THREE TIMES. A 20 hour flight regimen is not the same as a
wide open throttle kick butt aerobatic routine, which I do not think
Pappy performs on a regular basis, but many people with M-14 engines in
fact do. Maybe I am wrong about Pappy's flight test routine. Ask him.
Please.
I stated that if you did put one fixed and one variable timing mag in
there, that it would be a good idea to run with one mag off after
take-off, and if you did that, there would be no possible problem and it
would get you home ok. You say if anyone did that it would probably
foul the plugs and they would not work when you needed them. Instead of
me trying to explain why that is incorrect, (since I am obviously so
full of it) I will just offer you this simple test. GO DO IT YOURSELF.
Take off with two running mags, then turn one mag off. Run about 30
minutes to an hour or so, and then check your other mag. OH MY
GOODNESS! IT RUNS PERFECT! WELL IMAGINE THAT! I guess you will have
to immediately get on the YAK list and apologize to Mark for being 100%
wrong in your assumptions. Excuse me if I don't hold my breath. And
hey... Anyone else that wants to find out, go do it yourself. Turn off
one mag in flight for any time period you want to. Turn it on later and
report what happens. Right here. On the list. PLEASE!
Here's a hint. Once an engine starts, what do you think keeps plugs
from fouling? The fact that they are firing little electrical sparks?
Or might it have something to do with all that hot gas in the combustion
chamber because the OTHER PLUG IS STILL IGNITING THE COMBUSTION MIXTURE?
Ever have a fouled plug and take off anyway, only to have it work
perfectly later on? Hmmm... Wonder why that happened! Just so we can
be clear, fouling a non-sparking plug on an already running engine is
completely different than a plug that is fouled before or DURING
starting. But then... What do I know? Let me know how that test goes
won't cha? ANYONE for that matter. Remember... A RUNNING engine.
Here's another fact for anyone that is interested: ANYTHING that comes
out of my mouth falls into one of two different categories. That which
I have experienced and that which I assume. Unless I clearly say
otherwise, EVERYTHING I write on this list is based on PERSONAL
EXPERIENCE. HANDS ON. SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES. When it is otherwise,
I SAY it is otherwise... As in: "I am not sure, but". " I have heard
but have not seen" etc. EVERY post I make concerning something
technical ..... I always do that..... and it is NEVER "arm chair
bullshit".
Further there always seem to be people that put words into other peoples
mouths and then argue about what they never said in the first place.
As in: I never predicted any "dire consequences" (nice phrase though!).
I said it was not a good idea. I said that it was not the original
design. I said it was not a good idea to go experimenting with new
designs on an engine that carries passengers. I also said that I saw no
problem with anyone doing it on a "get it home" emergency basis. I even
offered ideas how to do it safely.
Once again, let me repeat: I DON'T GIVE A DARN ABOUT WHETHER THE MAG IS
CHINESE OR NOT!!! Russian, Chinese, American, ... Matters not to me.
It was never a matter of "who makes the mag".
Yes. I agree. Once the mechanical advance mechanism is fully open, the
timing then does not change anymore.
But you know what? The heck with all of this. Go ask a Russian Master
Mechanic what he thinks about doing this. Let me know what he says.
Oops, darn it, I already have. Guess what they said? I'll leave it to
your imagination. OR ... How about this? Why not just go ask an FAA
Inspector about doing it on ANY aircraft engine, ANY AIRCRAFT ENGINE!
Tell him some guy with the same engine as yours did it once and it ran
just fine. See what he says. Yeah, right.
Everyone knows a lot of things will "work" when it comes to making an
engine run, or an airplane fly. Some people care about doing the best
they can and are very careful about doing things that are not in the
book, that are advised against by people trained by experts on the
aircraft in question (and I am NOT talking about myself by the way) and
do not base opinions on what is safe, and what is NOT safe, on something
they read on the Internet or heard from their buddy. PRO *OR* CON !!!
I sincerely care about the many people on this list that have reached
out their hand in friendship and kindness to me, and I have tried as
hard as I can to do the same for them.
That said, let me be perfectly candid. I really do not care what you
think. Any slight feeling I might have had in that regard ENDED when
you used the phrase "armchair bullshit" to something I tried to write
with respect and tact.
Mark Bitterlich
P.S. By the way, I have more time working on airplanes than *I* care
to remember. But, I will anyway. 39 years and counting. That's what I
do for a living, and have since age 17. My time building automobile
race engines remains purely amateur. What I do on airplanes, I do as a
professional and I take strong exception to someone implying my lifes
work is "armchair bullshit".
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Elliott
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:12 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
WHY?, Why would it be bad to have one plug fire at the correct angle
before TDC and another in the same cyl fire retarded ( late ) the only
effect would be a small power / efficiency loss and would be possibly
not noticeable as Pappy who has done this in real life has stated. Also
you would run with one OFF ???? so when if you needed the other MAG and
plugs they would very likely be fouled!
I think all of your arm chair B/S on the dire consequences of doing this
should stop and defer to those who have been there and done it!
Note I have personally seen Chinese mags on a fuel injected M14P and
have flown that plane. Note all centrifugal advance Ing systems become
FIXED timing when they reach there top RPM. Also I have more time on a
SUN DISTRU-O-SCOPE that I care to remember.
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
Message 5
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As far as I know (and just as you, Mark, I try to be as precise as possible)
no inspector in Europe would accept an aircraft engine with two different
magneto's. It also is out of the question having Chinese mags on an M14P.
The UK officials would not even accept a Nanchang with an M14P!
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: vrijdag 26 juni 2009 20:11
Subject: Yak-List: Arm Chair B/S
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
My "arm chair bullshit"?
Real nice Tom.
Two airplanes that did exactly what Pappy did had serious problems at
wide open throttle. Question Doc Kemp for his details. Next, Pappy
ran that combination for 20 hours. TWENTY HOURS. He did not complete
any kind of flight test sequence, he flew normal flight routines and had
nothing bad happen. I believe him and his report completely. And I
said that. THREE TIMES. A 20 hour flight regimen is not the same as a
wide open throttle kick butt aerobatic routine, which I do not think
Pappy performs on a regular basis, but many people with M-14 engines in
fact do. Maybe I am wrong about Pappy's flight test routine. Ask him.
Please.
I stated that if you did put one fixed and one variable timing mag in
there, that it would be a good idea to run with one mag off after
take-off, and if you did that, there would be no possible problem and it
would get you home ok. You say if anyone did that it would probably
foul the plugs and they would not work when you needed them. Instead of
me trying to explain why that is incorrect, (since I am obviously so
full of it) I will just offer you this simple test. GO DO IT YOURSELF.
Take off with two running mags, then turn one mag off. Run about 30
minutes to an hour or so, and then check your other mag. OH MY
GOODNESS! IT RUNS PERFECT! WELL IMAGINE THAT! I guess you will have
to immediately get on the YAK list and apologize to Mark for being 100%
wrong in your assumptions. Excuse me if I don't hold my breath. And
hey... Anyone else that wants to find out, go do it yourself. Turn off
one mag in flight for any time period you want to. Turn it on later and
report what happens. Right here. On the list. PLEASE!
Here's a hint. Once an engine starts, what do you think keeps plugs
from fouling? The fact that they are firing little electrical sparks?
Or might it have something to do with all that hot gas in the combustion
chamber because the OTHER PLUG IS STILL IGNITING THE COMBUSTION MIXTURE?
Ever have a fouled plug and take off anyway, only to have it work
perfectly later on? Hmmm... Wonder why that happened! Just so we can
be clear, fouling a non-sparking plug on an already running engine is
completely different than a plug that is fouled before or DURING
starting. But then... What do I know? Let me know how that test goes
won't cha? ANYONE for that matter. Remember... A RUNNING engine.
Here's another fact for anyone that is interested: ANYTHING that comes
out of my mouth falls into one of two different categories. That which
I have experienced and that which I assume. Unless I clearly say
otherwise, EVERYTHING I write on this list is based on PERSONAL
EXPERIENCE. HANDS ON. SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES. When it is otherwise,
I SAY it is otherwise... As in: "I am not sure, but". " I have heard
but have not seen" etc. EVERY post I make concerning something
technical ..... I always do that..... and it is NEVER "arm chair
bullshit".
Further there always seem to be people that put words into other peoples
mouths and then argue about what they never said in the first place.
As in: I never predicted any "dire consequences" (nice phrase though!).
I said it was not a good idea. I said that it was not the original
design. I said it was not a good idea to go experimenting with new
designs on an engine that carries passengers. I also said that I saw no
problem with anyone doing it on a "get it home" emergency basis. I even
offered ideas how to do it safely.
Once again, let me repeat: I DON'T GIVE A DARN ABOUT WHETHER THE MAG IS
CHINESE OR NOT!!! Russian, Chinese, American, ... Matters not to me.
It was never a matter of "who makes the mag".
Yes. I agree. Once the mechanical advance mechanism is fully open, the
timing then does not change anymore.
But you know what? The heck with all of this. Go ask a Russian Master
Mechanic what he thinks about doing this. Let me know what he says.
Oops, darn it, I already have. Guess what they said? I'll leave it to
your imagination. OR ... How about this? Why not just go ask an FAA
Inspector about doing it on ANY aircraft engine, ANY AIRCRAFT ENGINE!
Tell him some guy with the same engine as yours did it once and it ran
just fine. See what he says. Yeah, right.
Everyone knows a lot of things will "work" when it comes to making an
engine run, or an airplane fly. Some people care about doing the best
they can and are very careful about doing things that are not in the
book, that are advised against by people trained by experts on the
aircraft in question (and I am NOT talking about myself by the way) and
do not base opinions on what is safe, and what is NOT safe, on something
they read on the Internet or heard from their buddy. PRO *OR* CON !!!
I sincerely care about the many people on this list that have reached
out their hand in friendship and kindness to me, and I have tried as
hard as I can to do the same for them.
That said, let me be perfectly candid. I really do not care what you
think. Any slight feeling I might have had in that regard ENDED when
you used the phrase "armchair bullshit" to something I tried to write
with respect and tact.
Mark Bitterlich
P.S. By the way, I have more time working on airplanes than *I* care
to remember. But, I will anyway. 39 years and counting. That's what I
do for a living, and have since age 17. My time building automobile
race engines remains purely amateur. What I do on airplanes, I do as a
professional and I take strong exception to someone implying my lifes
work is "armchair bullshit".
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Elliott
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:12 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: M14P magneto
WHY?, Why would it be bad to have one plug fire at the correct angle
before TDC and another in the same cyl fire retarded ( late ) the only
effect would be a small power / efficiency loss and would be possibly
not noticeable as Pappy who has done this in real life has stated. Also
you would run with one OFF ???? so when if you needed the other MAG and
plugs they would very likely be fouled!
I think all of your arm chair B/S on the dire consequences of doing this
should stop and defer to those who have been there and done it!
Note I have personally seen Chinese mags on a fuel injected M14P and
have flown that plane. Note all centrifugal advance Ing systems become
FIXED timing when they reach there top RPM. Also I have more time on a
SUN DISTRU-O-SCOPE that I care to remember.
Tom Elliott
CJ-6A NX63727
702-595-2680
Message 6
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| Subject: | Looking for a CJ-6A |
Guys,
Am looking to buy a CJ-6. Ideally < 2,500 hrs TTAF and solid logbooks.
Prefer M14P, but would still be interested if it had a well-maintained
Housai. Am new to the RedStar group with an eye towards formation
flying.
Warren Hill
Mesa, Arizona
Cell: 602-390-7988
Message 7
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| Subject: | Interest in a Central TX formation clinic Aug 6-9 |
A friend of mine is organizing a formation clinic for his Stearman group at my
home base (San Marcos, TX). We want to see if there is enough interest from the
RedStar crowd to justify some additional planning to make it a bigger event.
This may not happen, but if you'd be interested in coming email me at:
joe@joesairservice.com
and I'll put you on the invite list if we get enough interest to try to pull this
off.
Thanks,
Joe Enzminger
N700YK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250231#250231
Message 8
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| Subject: | Looking for a CJ-6A |
Guys,
Am looking to buy a CJ-6. Ideally < 2,500 hrs TTAF and solid logbooks.
Prefer M14P, but would still be interested if it had a well-maintained
Housai. Am new to the RedStar group with an eye towards formation
flying.
Warren Hill
Mesa, Arizona
Cell: 602-390-7988
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a CJ-6A |
Contact Jim Selby.=C2- I was at his place in Monterey, CA=C2-this week
and saw a CJ on his ramp that is ready for the paint of you choice.=C2- J
B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren Hill" <k7wx@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 2:44:08 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Yak-List: Looking for a CJ-6A
Guys,
Am looking to buy a CJ-6. Ideally < 2,500 hrs TTAF and solid logbooks. =C2
-
Prefer M14P, but would still be interested if it had a well-maintained =C2
-
Housai. Am new to the RedStar group with an eye towards formation =C2-
flying.
Warren Hill
Mesa, Arizona
Cell: 602-390-7988
===========
===========
MS -
===========
e -
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a CJ-6A |
Warren,
Welcome to the Yak group. I have a 1983 CJ-6A For Sale here at my Facility
in Marina, California.
2600 TTAF
90 hrs on 0 time Overhaul Engine ( 285 H.P )
90 hrs on New Prop Blades
Aircraft is Licensed & Flying, New Tires, Brake Drums, Bearings & Races.
Paint looks like S***, but very nice A.F. If interested, please contact me
off list and I'll send you photos and additonal info.
Best Regards
Jim Selby Jr
831-883-1266 Hanger
----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren Hill" <k7wx@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 12:42 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Looking for a CJ-6A
>
> Guys,
>
> Am looking to buy a CJ-6. Ideally < 2,500 hrs TTAF and solid logbooks.
> Prefer M14P, but would still be interested if it had a well-maintained
> Housai. Am new to the RedStar group with an eye towards formation flying.
>
> Warren Hill
> Mesa, Arizona
> Cell: 602-390-7988
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a CJ-6A |
Jim,
I was just getting ready to contact you. Doug Sapp mentioned this
morning that you may have a nice airplane for sale.
Yes, if you wouldn't mind, would love to see pictures. Not worried
about the appearance, just the airframe, engine and instruments. Paint
can always be addressed later.
All the best,
Warren Hill
On Jun 26, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Jim Selby wrote:
>
> Warren,
> Welcome to the Yak group. I have a 1983 CJ-6A For Sale here at my
> Facility in Marina, California.
>
> 2600 TTAF
> 90 hrs on 0 time Overhaul Engine ( 285 H.P )
> 90 hrs on New Prop Blades
>
> Aircraft is Licensed & Flying, New Tires, Brake Drums, Bearings &
> Races. Paint looks like S***, but very nice A.F. If interested,
> please contact me off list and I'll send you photos and additonal
> info.
>
> Best Regards
> Jim Selby Jr
> 831-883-1266 Hanger
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warren Hill" <k7wx@earthlink.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 12:42 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Looking for a CJ-6A
>
>
>>
>> Guys,
>>
>> Am looking to buy a CJ-6. Ideally < 2,500 hrs TTAF and solid
>> logbooks. Prefer M14P, but would still be interested if it had a
>> well-maintained Housai. Am new to the RedStar group with an eye
>> towards formation flying.
>>
>> Warren Hill
>> Mesa, Arizona
>> Cell: 602-390-7988
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | finance company? |
Hi all, I have a friend who is interested in buying a Red Star airplane.=C2
- He wants to finance the majority (90%) of the purchase price. =C2- I
mentioned the loan program thru AOPA, but when he contacted them today, the
y said they no longer finance CJ=99s or Yak=99s. =C2- Can any
one recommend a good finance company? =C2- Jon
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: finance company? |
Got my loan through http://airloans.com less than 2 years ago.
--
Kurt "It" Howerton
N923YK
http://cj6.scitechsys.com
jblake207@COMCAST.NET wrote:
>
> Hi all, I have a friend who is interested in buying a Red Star
> airplane. He wants to finance the majority (90%) of the purchase
> price. I mentioned the loan program thru AOPA, but when he contacted
> them today, they said they no longer finance CJs or Yaks. Can
> anyone recommend a good finance company? Jon
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>
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