Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:53 AM - Re: Original Yak 50 Exhaust Metal Type TI or Stainless? (A. Dennis Savarese)
2. 06:53 AM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (Roger Kemp M.D.)
3. 07:14 AM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (Hans Oortman)
4. 09:16 AM - TI Alloy for exhaust weld? (Scott Dierolf)
5. 10:56 AM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (Roger Kemp M.D.)
6. 12:19 PM - Re: Original Yak 50 Exhaust Metal Type TI or Stainless? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
7. 12:20 PM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
8. 12:34 PM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 12:49 PM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (Jan Mevis)
10. 01:21 PM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
11. 02:51 PM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (Roger Kemp M.D.)
12. 03:32 PM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (A. Dennis Savarese)
13. 08:09 PM - Re: Idling problem... (Zjopa)
14. 10:57 PM - Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio (nc69666@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Original Yak 50 Exhaust Metal Type TI or Stainless? |
All original Yak 52's and Yak 50's had titanium exhaust systems.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: rsdie_1@yahoo.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:01 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Original Yak 50 Exhaust Metal Type TI or Stainless?
Wish to confirm that the original exhaust on the 50 is
Titainium. Found mine is cracked around the nipple fitting for the smoke
system. Took a small piece to a welder that tried to weld it to
stainless with his TIG, he said it won't stick and is not stainless. Had
a 52 before, and that had a stainless exhaust for sure. So did the 50's
have Titanium, like I'm told the Sukhoi does?
Thanks all
Scott Dierolf
N5203V
Y-50
Message 2
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| Subject: | Interference Becker 4201 radio |
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections on the
filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the other to the
power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the filter into
the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio. I have my Buss Bar
wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the DC converter first with
obviously the outline from the converter carrying 12 volt current to the
Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both did
the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to install it
safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the busbar in
the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and then with a
shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive for
noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter to the
Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise has
been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in my
Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the filters ,
just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper "plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the filter
wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the mags.
Everything has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF, i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by the
interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is no constant
noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty" that it
is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some sort,
after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts present on any
standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out of 10
sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected to the
plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is picking up
interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one way or the other
on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of this.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out whether
there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher connector
with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present circuitry but still
using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
Message 3
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| Subject: | Interference Becker 4201 radio |
Doc,
I'm going to try to install the in line filter during the coming weekend. I
wanna have this solved. In the meantime, thanks to Dennis, I found that the
Becker 12v is connected directly to the series connection wire of the 12v
batteries, i.e. there is no DC-DC converter used and this means that the
"dirty" power from the generator will go unfiltered in to the Becker.
I did some measurements here at my company and found the Becker to be a poor
performer from an RF point of view, but there is nothing I can do about that
then buy myself another one from a different brand that is....
However, before I get to that point I'll try a real dc-dc converter in
combination with the Lonestar in-line filter.
I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.
Hans Oortman, MBA, Ph.D.
CEO
STN BV
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: woensdag 8 juli 2009 15:46
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections on the
filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the other to the
power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the filter into
the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio. I have my Buss Bar
wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the DC converter first with
obviously the outline from the converter carrying 12 volt current to the
Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both did
the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to install it
safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the busbar in
the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and then with a
shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive for
noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter to the
Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise has
been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in my
Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the filters ,
just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper "plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the filter
wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the mags.
Everything has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF, i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by the
interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is no constant
noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty" that it
is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some sort,
after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts present on any
standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out of 10
sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected to the
plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is picking up
interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one way or the other
on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of this.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out whether
there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher connector
with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present circuitry but still
using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
Message 4
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| Subject: | TI Alloy for exhaust weld? |
Can anyone provide information
on the alloy to use for a welding repair on the exhaust headers?
Thanks,
Scott
Dierolf
Y50 N5203V
Message 5
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| Subject: | Interference Becker 4201 radio |
Hans,
Thanks and good luck.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
I'm going to try to install the in line filter during the coming weekend. I
wanna have this solved. In the meantime, thanks to Dennis, I found that the
Becker 12v is connected directly to the series connection wire of the 12v
batteries, i.e. there is no DC-DC converter used and this means that the
"dirty" power from the generator will go unfiltered in to the Becker.
I did some measurements here at my company and found the Becker to be a poor
performer from an RF point of view, but there is nothing I can do about that
then buy myself another one from a different brand that is....
However, before I get to that point I'll try a real dc-dc converter in
combination with the Lonestar in-line filter.
I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.
Hans Oortman, MBA, Ph.D.
CEO
STN BV
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: woensdag 8 juli 2009 15:46
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections on the
filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the other to the
power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the filter into
the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio. I have my Buss Bar
wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the DC converter first with
obviously the outline from the converter carrying 12 volt current to the
Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both did
the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to install it
safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the busbar in
the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and then with a
shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive for
noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter to the
Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise has
been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in my
Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the filters ,
just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper "plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the filter
wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the mags.
Everything has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF, i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by the
interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is no constant
noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty" that it
is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some sort,
after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts present on any
standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out of 10
sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected to the
plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is picking up
interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one way or the other
on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of this.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out whether
there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher connector
with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present circuitry but still
using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
Message 6
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| Subject: | Original Yak 50 Exhaust Metal Type TI or Stainless? |
Yes. Titanium. Welding it can be tricky.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rsdie_1@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 12:01 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Original Yak 50 Exhaust Metal Type TI or Stainless?
Wish to confirm that the original exhaust on the 50 is Titainium. Found
mine is cracked around the nipple fitting for the smoke system. Took a
small piece to a welder that tried to weld it to stainless with his TIG,
he said it won't stick and is not stainless. Had a 52 before, and that
had a stainless exhaust for sure. So did the 50's have Titanium, like
I'm told the Sukhoi does?
Thanks all
Scott Dierolf
N5203V
Y-50
Message 7
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| Subject: | Interference Becker 4201 radio |
It seems there are two different things going on here. I get the idea
from Craig that he is saying it is coming in from the antenna coax.
I get the readback from you Doc, that it is clearly coming in on the DC
supply line. If it is coming in from the DC supply line, the fix is
easy and very do-able. If it is coming in from the antenna, it gets
much more complex.
Which one is it?
Antenna noise?
Power input noise?
Both?
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. Hans, CLEARLY filter the DC input. Fact is, it worked for Doc,
and that can not be refuted.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
M.D.
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections on
the filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the other
to the power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the
filter into the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio. I
have my Buss Bar wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the DC
converter first with obviously the outline from the converter carrying
12 volt current to the Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both
did the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to install
it safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the
busbar in the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and
then with a shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive
for noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter to
the Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise
has been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in
my Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the
filters , just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper
"plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the
filter wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the mags.
Everything has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF,
i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by
the interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is no
constant noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens
the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the
airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty"
that it is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some
sort, after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts present
on any standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out of
10 sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected to
the plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is
picking up interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one
way or the other on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of this.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out
whether there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher
connector with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present
circuitry but still using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
Message 8
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| Subject: | Interference Becker 4201 radio |
Just a note to Hans and anyone else.
What Hans found (thanks to Dennis for remembering to check for it) is a
12 volt radio connected in-between two 12 volt batteries connected in
series to provide 24 volts.
Actually Hans, doing it that way does allow the battery to act as a
fairly good filter (of sorts) to generator noise, and it still does not
explain in any way why connecting your GPS cable did what it did. That
little phenomenon is another strong bit of evidence that the Becker
noise is all coming in from the DC power line and not the antenna.
That aside, hooking any 12 volt accessory up like this is very do-able,
and will work just fine, for awhile.
What eventually happens is that you end up putting more load on one
battery than the other one as they are operated. Eventually, the one
battery won't charge quite as perfectly as it should. This can be very
hard to detect, because your cockpit meter is looking at BOTH of them
and not just the one that is powering your radio, or whatever else.
Eventually, the batteries start to charge unevenly, and the voltage on
the one supplying the 12 volts starts to fail faster than the other one.
The end result is unpredictable voltage to the "12 volt device(s)".
This can damage them. Not right away. It takes awhile.
Another thing that can happen is that as you put on a heavy 28 volt
load, the voltage in the middle of the 2 batteries goes even more off,
again giving the potential for voltages being present that you would
never use intentionally, and that you know very little about.
If you change the batteries regularly, you can get away with this
approach, but it really is a bad design choice.
As Hans has noted, the best choice is to use a DC to DC converter, that
runs off of 28 volts, and steps down to 12 volts. It also then is a
good idea to put a line filter and a good sized cap on the output line
for further filtering. Then put a switch on the INPUT to this DC to DC
converter to allow it to be turned OFF when you want it to be. Or have
it wired to a circuit breaker.. Whatever.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
I'm going to try to install the in line filter during the coming
weekend. I wanna have this solved. In the meantime, thanks to Dennis, I
found that the Becker 12v is connected directly to the series connection
wire of the 12v batteries, i.e. there is no DC-DC converter used and
this means that the "dirty" power from the generator will go unfiltered
in to the Becker.
I did some measurements here at my company and found the Becker to be a
poor performer from an RF point of view, but there is nothing I can do
about that then buy myself another one from a different brand that
is....
However, before I get to that point I'll try a real dc-dc converter in
combination with the Lonestar in-line filter.
I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.
Hans Oortman, MBA, Ph.D.
CEO
STN BV
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: woensdag 8 juli 2009 15:46
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections on
the filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the other
to the power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the
filter into the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio. I
have my Buss Bar wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the DC
converter first with obviously the outline from the converter carrying
12 volt current to the Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both
did the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to install
it safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the
busbar in the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and
then with a shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive
for noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter to
the Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise
has been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in
my Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the
filters , just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper
"plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the
filter wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the mags.
Everything has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF,
i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by
the interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is no
constant noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens
the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the
airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty"
that it is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some
sort, after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts present
on any standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out of
10 sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected to
the plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is
picking up interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one
way or the other on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of this.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out
whether there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher
connector with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present
circuitry but still using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
Message 9
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| Subject: | Interference Becker 4201 radio |
I have a DC-DC- convertor on the battery, and NO filter on the 12 volts line
to the radio. The Becker 4201 on my Yak 50 works perfectly well.
Perhaps one major difference: I have a B&C alternator and thus electric
voltage regulator ? Is it possible that this generates far less noise than
the Russian generator and Russian voltage regulator ?
Jan
YK50
RA2005K
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: woensdag 8 juli 2009 21:33
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Just a note to Hans and anyone else.
What Hans found (thanks to Dennis for remembering to check for it) is a
12 volt radio connected in-between two 12 volt batteries connected in
series to provide 24 volts.
Actually Hans, doing it that way does allow the battery to act as a
fairly good filter (of sorts) to generator noise, and it still does not
explain in any way why connecting your GPS cable did what it did. That
little phenomenon is another strong bit of evidence that the Becker
noise is all coming in from the DC power line and not the antenna.
That aside, hooking any 12 volt accessory up like this is very do-able,
and will work just fine, for awhile.
What eventually happens is that you end up putting more load on one
battery than the other one as they are operated. Eventually, the one
battery won't charge quite as perfectly as it should. This can be very
hard to detect, because your cockpit meter is looking at BOTH of them
and not just the one that is powering your radio, or whatever else.
Eventually, the batteries start to charge unevenly, and the voltage on
the one supplying the 12 volts starts to fail faster than the other one.
The end result is unpredictable voltage to the "12 volt device(s)".
This can damage them. Not right away. It takes awhile.
Another thing that can happen is that as you put on a heavy 28 volt
load, the voltage in the middle of the 2 batteries goes even more off,
again giving the potential for voltages being present that you would
never use intentionally, and that you know very little about.
If you change the batteries regularly, you can get away with this
approach, but it really is a bad design choice.
As Hans has noted, the best choice is to use a DC to DC converter, that
runs off of 28 volts, and steps down to 12 volts. It also then is a
good idea to put a line filter and a good sized cap on the output line
for further filtering. Then put a switch on the INPUT to this DC to DC
converter to allow it to be turned OFF when you want it to be. Or have
it wired to a circuit breaker.. Whatever.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
I'm going to try to install the in line filter during the coming
weekend. I wanna have this solved. In the meantime, thanks to Dennis, I
found that the Becker 12v is connected directly to the series connection
wire of the 12v batteries, i.e. there is no DC-DC converter used and
this means that the "dirty" power from the generator will go unfiltered
in to the Becker.
I did some measurements here at my company and found the Becker to be a
poor performer from an RF point of view, but there is nothing I can do
about that then buy myself another one from a different brand that
is....
However, before I get to that point I'll try a real dc-dc converter in
combination with the Lonestar in-line filter.
I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.
Hans Oortman, MBA, Ph.D.
CEO
STN BV
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: woensdag 8 juli 2009 15:46
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections on
the filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the other
to the power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the
filter into the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio. I
have my Buss Bar wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the DC
converter first with obviously the outline from the converter carrying
12 volt current to the Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both
did the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to install
it safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the
busbar in the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and
then with a shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive
for noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter to
the Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise
has been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in
my Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the
filters , just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper
"plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the
filter wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the mags.
Everything has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF,
i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by
the interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is no
constant noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens
the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the
airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty"
that it is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some
sort, after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts present
on any standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out of
10 sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected to
the plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is
picking up interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one
way or the other on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of this.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out
whether there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher
connector with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present
circuitry but still using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
Message 10
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| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
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|
| Subject: | Interference Becker 4201 radio |
Jan, it is very likely with that model that you have installed a big
filter capacitor with the system. Big Blue thing. Usually comes with
the over-voltage protection kit for the small B&C. Do you have the 10
amp PMG model, or the 35 amp with a field wire?
Don't limit it to just the generator versus alternator Jan. No one has
yet determined the exact source for all this noise that everyone is
reporting. Doc has installed filters that help, but that does not
really identify what is causing it. It may help in determining how it
is getting INTO the radio. Craig seems to indicate it is coming in the
antenna. Doc seems to indicate it is coming in via the power wiring.
No one really knows what is making the noise to begin with.
Consider yourself lucky.
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. Install the digital tach using the P lead connections and see what
happens.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 3:48 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
I have a DC-DC- convertor on the battery, and NO filter on the 12 volts
line to the radio. The Becker 4201 on my Yak 50 works perfectly well.
Perhaps one major difference: I have a B&C alternator and thus electric
voltage regulator ? Is it possible that this generates far less noise
than the Russian generator and Russian voltage regulator ?
Jan
YK50
RA2005K
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: woensdag 8 juli 2009 21:33
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Just a note to Hans and anyone else.
What Hans found (thanks to Dennis for remembering to check for it) is a
12 volt radio connected in-between two 12 volt batteries connected in
series to provide 24 volts.
Actually Hans, doing it that way does allow the battery to act as a
fairly good filter (of sorts) to generator noise, and it still does not
explain in any way why connecting your GPS cable did what it did. That
little phenomenon is another strong bit of evidence that the Becker
noise is all coming in from the DC power line and not the antenna.
That aside, hooking any 12 volt accessory up like this is very do-able,
and will work just fine, for awhile.
What eventually happens is that you end up putting more load on one
battery than the other one as they are operated. Eventually, the one
battery won't charge quite as perfectly as it should. This can be very
hard to detect, because your cockpit meter is looking at BOTH of them
and not just the one that is powering your radio, or whatever else.
Eventually, the batteries start to charge unevenly, and the voltage on
the one supplying the 12 volts starts to fail faster than the other one.
The end result is unpredictable voltage to the "12 volt device(s)".
This can damage them. Not right away. It takes awhile.
Another thing that can happen is that as you put on a heavy 28 volt
load, the voltage in the middle of the 2 batteries goes even more off,
again giving the potential for voltages being present that you would
never use intentionally, and that you know very little about.
If you change the batteries regularly, you can get away with this
approach, but it really is a bad design choice.
As Hans has noted, the best choice is to use a DC to DC converter, that
runs off of 28 volts, and steps down to 12 volts. It also then is a
good idea to put a line filter and a good sized cap on the output line
for further filtering. Then put a switch on the INPUT to this DC to DC
converter to allow it to be turned OFF when you want it to be. Or have
it wired to a circuit breaker.. Whatever.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
I'm going to try to install the in line filter during the coming
weekend. I wanna have this solved. In the meantime, thanks to Dennis, I
found that the Becker 12v is connected directly to the series connection
wire of the 12v batteries, i.e. there is no DC-DC converter used and
this means that the "dirty" power from the generator will go unfiltered
in to the Becker.
I did some measurements here at my company and found the Becker to be a
poor performer from an RF point of view, but there is nothing I can do
about that then buy myself another one from a different brand that
is....
However, before I get to that point I'll try a real dc-dc converter in
combination with the Lonestar in-line filter.
I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.
Hans Oortman, MBA, Ph.D.
CEO
STN BV
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: woensdag 8 juli 2009 15:46
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections on
the filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the other
to the power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the
filter into the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio. I
have my Buss Bar wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the DC
converter first with obviously the outline from the converter carrying
12 volt current to the Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both
did the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to install
it safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the
busbar in the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and
then with a shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive
for noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter to
the Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise
has been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in
my Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the
filters , just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper
"plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the
filter wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the mags.
Everything has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF,
i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by
the interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is no
constant noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens
the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the
airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty"
that it is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some
sort, after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts present
on any standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out of
10 sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected to
the plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is
picking up interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one
way or the other on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of this.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out
whether there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher
connector with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present
circuitry but still using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
Message 11
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| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
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|
| Subject: | Interference Becker 4201 radio |
Mark,
Mine was power input noise. Changing the antenna coax did nothing for it.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:21 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
It seems there are two different things going on here. I get the idea
from Craig that he is saying it is coming in from the antenna coax.
I get the readback from you Doc, that it is clearly coming in on the DC
supply line. If it is coming in from the DC supply line, the fix is
easy and very do-able. If it is coming in from the antenna, it gets
much more complex.
Which one is it?
Antenna noise?
Power input noise?
Both?
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. Hans, CLEARLY filter the DC input. Fact is, it worked for Doc,
and that can not be refuted.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
M.D.
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections on
the filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the other
to the power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the
filter into the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio. I
have my Buss Bar wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the DC
converter first with obviously the outline from the converter carrying
12 volt current to the Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both
did the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to install
it safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the
busbar in the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and
then with a shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive
for noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter to
the Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise
has been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in
my Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the
filters , just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper
"plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the
filter wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the mags.
Everything has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF,
i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by
the interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is no
constant noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens
the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the
airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty"
that it is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some
sort, after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts present
on any standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out of
10 sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected to
the plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is
picking up interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one
way or the other on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of this.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out
whether there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher
connector with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present
circuitry but still using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio |
I believe Doc's solution was a combination of the DC power line filter
AND the P-lead filters. If I remember correctly, first the DC filter
was installed which reduced the noise level substantially. Then the
P-lead filters were installed and with the combination of both types of
filters, the noise has been basically eliminated.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Kemp M.D.
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:47 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
<viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Mark,
Mine was power input noise. Changing the antenna coax did nothing for
it.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:21 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
It seems there are two different things going on here. I get the idea
from Craig that he is saying it is coming in from the antenna coax.
I get the readback from you Doc, that it is clearly coming in on the
DC
supply line. If it is coming in from the DC supply line, the fix is
easy and very do-able. If it is coming in from the antenna, it gets
much more complex.
Which one is it?
Antenna noise?
Power input noise?
Both?
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. Hans, CLEARLY filter the DC input. Fact is, it worked for Doc,
and that can not be refuted.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
M.D.
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:46 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections
on
the filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the
other
to the power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the
filter into the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio.
I
have my Buss Bar wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the
DC
converter first with obviously the outline from the converter carrying
12 volt current to the Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both
did the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to
install
it safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the
busbar in the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and
then with a shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive
for noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter
to
the Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise
has been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we
have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in
my Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the
filters , just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper
"plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the
filter wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the
mags.
Everything has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF,
i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by
the interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is
no
constant noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens
the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the
airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference
is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty"
that it is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some
sort, after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts
present
on any standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front
cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the
power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch
which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out
of
10 sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected
to
the plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is
picking up interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one
way or the other on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of
this.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out
whether there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher
connector with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present
circuitry but still using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Idling problem... |
Thanks Mark... I chatted with Vladimir.. he advised the same... There was about
20ccs of H2O in the main filter, and a little in the fine filter!.
She now runs like a dream. We think the water came from a faulty seal on one of
the tip tanks.
Thanks for the advice.
Ron
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252235#252235
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Interference Becker 4201 radio |
Guys, I have a inexpensive and very reliable solution to you clean 12 Volt
s power needs. About 13 years ago when I wanted 12 Volts in my CJ I went
to the local Ham Radio Store, and purchased a DC power converter, it is
manufactured by Astron, it converts 24V to 12V, 20 amps output, extremely
=C2-reliable and very highly filtered, I have never had any noise or int
erference in my 12 V electrical supply, radios are happy as can be, it giv
es you all the 12 V you should ever need. =C2-The cost at that time was
about $85.00.. =C2-Very simple solution.. =C2-Best of Luck.
Gary Gabbard
Las Vegas, NV
CJ, N22YK
-----Original Message-----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlic
h@navy.mil>
Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 12:32 pm
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Just a note to Hans and anyone else.
What Hans found (thanks to Dennis for remembering to check for it) is a
12 volt radio connected in-between two 12 volt batteries connected in
series to provide 24 volts.
Actually Hans, doing it that way does allow the battery to act as a
fairly good filter (of sorts) to generator noise, and it still does not
explain in any way why connecting your GPS cable did what it did. That
little phenomenon is another strong bit of evidence that the Becker
noise is all=2
0coming in from the DC power line and not the antenna.
That aside, hooking any 12 volt accessory up like this is very do-able,
and will work just fine, for awhile.
What eventually happens is that you end up putting more load on one
battery than the other one as they are operated. Eventually, the one
battery won't charge quite as perfectly as it should. This can be very
hard to detect, because your cockpit meter is looking at BOTH of them
and not just the one that is powering your radio, or whatever else.
Eventually, the batteries start to charge unevenly, and the voltage on
the one supplying the 12 volts starts to fail faster than the other one.
The end result is unpredictable voltage to the "12 volt device(s)".
This can damage them. Not right away. It takes awhile.
Another thing that can happen is that as you put on a heavy 28 volt
load, the voltage in the middle of the 2 batteries goes even more off,
again giving the potential for voltages being present that you would
never use intentionally, and that you know very little about.
If you change the batteries regularly, you can get away with this
approach, but it really is a bad design choice.
As Hans has noted, the best choice is to use a DC to DC converter, that
runs off of 28 volts, and steps down to 12 volts. It also then is a
good idea to put a line filter and a good sized cap on the output line
for further filtering. Then put a switch on the INPUT to this
DC to DC
converter to allow it to be turned OFF when you want it to be. Or have
it wired to a circuit breaker.. Whatever.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
I'm going to try to install the in line filter during the coming
weekend. I wanna have this solved. In the meantime, thanks to Dennis, I
found that the Becker 12v is connected directly to the series connection
wire of the 12v batteries, i.e. there is no DC-DC converter used and
this means that the "dirty" power from the generator will go unfiltered
in to the Becker.
I did some measurements here at my company and found the Becker to be a
poor performer from an RF point of view, but there is nothing I can do
about that then buy myself another one from a different brand that
is....
However, before I get to that point I'll try a real dc-dc converter in
combination with the Lonestar in-line filter.
I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.
Hans Oortman, MBA, Ph.D.
CEO
STN BV
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: woensdag 8 juli 2009 15:46
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> Yak-List20message posted by: "Roger Kemp M.D."
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Han's,
This is a problem that I have with my 50. There are three connections on
the filter. One goes to ground, one to the DC power supply and the other
to the power supply in line to the Becker Radio. I simply inserted the
filter into the power supply line from the DC converter to the radio. I
have my Buss Bar wired so the com switch takes 24 volt current to the DC
converter first with obviously the outline from the converter carrying
12 volt current to the Becker.
Agree, do not know why the Becker is so sensitive to RF noise. I even
changed out the radio for another Becker I had on the shelf. They both
did the same thing. The filters have helped immensely.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Doc,
Yeah...I do have the in line filter as well as the capacitor for the
generator but did not install it yet. Have not found a place to install
it safely. I need to do that. I assume you installed it close to the
busbar in the area of the switches on the left side of the plane and
then with a shielded wire to the VHF??
What I don't understand though is why the Becker radio is so sensitive
for noise on the dc supply??
Hans
-----Oo
rspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Roger Kemp M.D.
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 juli 2009 15:45
Aan: yak-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: RE: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
--> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Hans,
I also added a filter in line with the power supply from my converter to
the Becker radio. It to came from Lone Star Avionics.
http://www.lonestaraviation.com/product_details.asp?Product_Name=The
Eliminator. With the mag filters and the DC filter in line, the noise
has been pretty much eliminated.
The other place to check in your Tack generator shielding.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Oortman
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Interference Becker 4201 radio
Mark,
I finally made the time available to do the tests/modifications we have
talked about with respect to the interference on a Becker VHF radio in
my Yak52.
I installed the Lonestar P-lead filters on both mags. Found that both
screens of the p-leads are in perfect condition but installed the
filters , just to make sure.
The screening can now be called perfect. I have made a special copper
"plug"
to fill up for the thinner wires on the filters. The screens of the
filter wires have been soldered to those "plugs" and locked in the mags.
Everything
has been fixed thoroughly and inspected for grounding.
All OK so far. Started the engine and found no difference on the VHF,
i.e.
the interference is still there. That means: the squelch is opened by
the interference. Switching off the squelch it appears that there is no
constant noise level but more of a kind of rattling noise which opens
the squelch.
Checked antenna...found no problem or loose wires. Swr is within the
airband
1 : 1.5 max.
So in my humble opinion there is only 1 thing left: the interference is
going into the vhf via the power supply or the power is that "dirty"
that it is picked up by the vhf antenna.....
I know that the Becker gets its power via a dc-dc converter of some
sort, after all the Yak has 24v standard power. Is the 12 volts present
on any standard Yak or is there a built in down converter somewhere??
What is the "voltage adjustment" screw meant for in the front cockpit??
Did some tests with the GPS also. When the GPS is connected to the power
plug and switched on, the noise level on the VHF opens the squelch which
makes it unuseable in flight.
Switched off gps: noise is reduced but squelch is still opened 6 out of
10 sec. Disconnected power supply lead from GPS but kept it connected to
the plane, same result as GPS being switched off, i.e. the VHF is
picking up interference via its antenna but the noise is generated one
way or the other on the power bus??
I have come to a point of saturation in my mind about the cause of this
.
Taking a scope into the cockpit is probably the only way to find out
whether there is any noise on the power bus.
Probably another way is to power the VHF via the cigarette ligher
connector with another dc-dc converter. Thus bypassing the present
circuitry but still using the power on board.
Any suggestions, thoughts are welcomed!
Hans
RA3326K
Mob: +31 653 286022
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