Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:23 AM - More spark plugs (Craig Payne)
2. 07:19 AM - Selling you CJ - we're fresh out! (Barry Hancock)
3. 08:34 AM - Re: Automotive Plug Alert (doug sapp)
4. 10:58 AM - Re: Automotive Plug Alert (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
5. 12:10 PM - Re: Re: Automotive Plug Alert (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
6. 02:14 PM - Solid core Vs resistive wires and plugs. (Frank)
7. 03:10 PM - Re: Solid core Vs resistive wires and plugs. (Jim)
8. 03:11 PM - Re: Automotive Plug Alert (Jim)
9. 03:53 PM - Re: Solid core Vs resistive wires and plugs. (Frank Stelwagon)
10. 06:04 PM - Re: Automotive Plug Alert (Roger Kemp M.D.)
11. 06:40 PM - Flying with Canopies open (Ahmed M. Ragheb)
12. 08:11 PM - Re: Automotive Plug Alert (Roger Kemp M.D.)
13. 08:47 PM - Re: Automotive Plug Alert (Walter Lannon)
14. 11:35 PM - Re: magnetos (Frank Stelwagon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | More spark plugs |
Perhaps I should have used the word "impedance" rather than "resistance" in my
last post. Regardless, due care need to be taken when using spiral-wrapped silcone
wire and motorcycle plugs. They work great but pay attention to:
- Use 1/2" reach plugs only.
- Select Resistor type.
- Mid-range heat conduction rating.
- I prefer solid terminal rather than the threaded type cap that can work loose.
- Keep the gap under .020"
- Don't over torque.
Always buy a few extra since they are brittle and can be damaged by dropping or
get a case of "wrench rash". I never clean them, just replace at annual. The
built-in crush washer is only good for 1 tightening anyway. A good price is about
$2.00 each in packs of 10, as found at internet stores.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Selling you CJ - we're fresh out! |
Gang,
After selling 3 CJ's in the last 3 months, Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. is
currently out of CJ inventory. If you are selling your aircraft and are
interested in our help with either selling or buying a CJ or Yak, we offer
the following services:
1) Brokerage. Your plane will be listed on our web site, and on our
various internet sales sites such as Trade A Plane and Controller.com. We
will handle all sales inquires and are available to assist with demo
flights, showing the aircraft, and delivery to the new owner once sold.
2) Pre-Purchase Inspections. With 1 IA and 3 A&P's on staff familiar with
CJ's and Yaks, we can provide complete pre-purchase inspection services
including thorough inspection using factory checklists, detailed log book
inspection, and written reports. We'll help you through the buying
process and do our level best to help you sort through all the information
and choose an aircraft that suits your requirements while avoiding the
potential pitfalls of purchasing in the experimental/warbird world.
3) Aircraft checkout. With any purchase from or through us, we offer a
full aircraft ground school and flight checkout to comply with insurance
requirements up to a total of 10 hours of training.
Whether you are looking to buy or sell a CJ or Yak, Worldwide Warbirds
offers the above services to help get you into the right plane for you,
and get out when that bittersweet time comes.
Please contact me directly if you have any additional questions.
Regards,
Barry
--
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
office (909) 606-4444
cell (949) 300-5510
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plug Alert |
Doc,You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!
I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond on
the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark plugs I
have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow out the
centers. Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them with the Russia
n
plugs which unfortunately do have a reputation for blowing out the
ceramics?? All that said, if ANY plug, of any mfg has been dropped all bet
s
are off and it should be treated as very suspect and IMHO should not be
used.
I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when i
t
comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod, but at
this time my ignition harness seems to be good. It would seem to me that i
f
all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion would report in as to
which wire and which plug you are running (and if you have seen any
problems) the correct combination of plug type and wire type would soon
be obvious.
Doug
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>wr
ote:
> Craig,
>
> I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its
=92
> M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved t
he
> problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the
> blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to t
he
> heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out yo
ur
> mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts
> about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that
did
> that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50 without the problem to date. I have
had
> the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the
> ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the ne
w
> NGK=92s. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a c
ouple
> the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So
I
> changed the plugs to the NGK=92s and did the plug wire conversion. That l
ed to
> a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for anoth
er
> setting.
>
> Doc
>
>
> *From:* owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Yak Pilot
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
>
>
> Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion Craig? I
> understand about the problem. I understand that you were comparing
> resistive to non-resistive plugs. Using the term: "YOU MUST USE RESISTIV
E
> PLUGS" is pretty strong. I'll talk to you about it off line. Rog?
>
>
> Later,
>
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
> To: "yak-list" <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM
>
> When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, yo
u
> MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an
> excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough
> mag operation.
>
>
> While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine wi
th
> a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3 ye
ars
> ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My
> situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the
> pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switch
ed
> spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away.
> While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mag
s
> and haven't changed much since.
>
>
> My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another
> airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight.
> Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better
> match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settin
gs,
> I would go back to the BR6HS.
>
>
> Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get the
> chance.
>
>
> Craig Payne
>
> cpayne@joimail.com<http://us.mc507.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cpayne@
joimail.com>
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*
>
> *et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
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>
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>
> **
>
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>
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>
> **
>
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>
> **
>
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>
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--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plug Alert |
We have been running ND's for years now.=C2- MSD spiral racing wire.=C2
- And you can use 3/4" plugs with no problems as the stock plugs are rea
lly too short.=C2- We have run many checks with the cylinders off, use
projected tips and 3/4" and it helps get them out of the oil on the botto
m cylinders.=C2- If you look into your spark plug hole you will see seve
ral carboned over threads the stock plugs don't reach.=C2- If you go wit
h 3/4 just run a plug tap to first to clean out those threads.=C2- I hav
e installed over ten systems and nary a problem, but we use only the best
stuff, not NAPA cheap stuff.=C2- If you want to go nuts like us you can
index the plugs with varying thickness washers like racers do, I do this
just because I am weird. I can't really tell if it helps but as I said I
am weird!
We have these on Sukhoi's, Yaks, Nanchangs, etc.=C2- Zero problems, all
positives.=C2- As for stock plugs you are using 1930's technology, noth
ing more.=C2- With modern auto plugs you are state of the art.=C2- And
remember modern plugs are build to withstand way more than 12.0:1 compres
sions ratios, we have never had a plug failure or leakage.
You will see almost zero mag drop with auto, easier starting and of course
2 dollar throw away plugs.=C2- Also we do air cooling to the mags, as
heat is what kills electrical components, so we have had no mag problems
either.
Tally Ho!
Vector Warbirds USA
-----Original Message-----
From: doug s
app <dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 8:27 am
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Doc,
You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening! =C2-
I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond
on the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark pl
ugs I have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow
out the centers. =C2-Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them
with the Russian plugs which=C2-unfortunately=C2-do have a reputation
for blowing out the ceramics?? =C2-All that said, if ANY plug, of any
mfg has been dropped all bets are off and it should be treated as very su
spect and IMHO should not be used.
I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when
it comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod,
but at this time my=C2-ignition=C2-harness seems to be good. =C2-It
would seem to me that if all you guys who are running the auto plug conve
rsion would report in as to which wire and which plug you are running (and
if you have seen any problems) the correct combination of plug type and
wire type would soon be=C2-obvious. =C2-
Doug
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Craig,
I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52
with its=99=2
0M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the
coil solved the problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt
Kaahoop
and the blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clo
ck to
the heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out
your
mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts ab
out
over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that did tha
t. I
have the NGK plugs in my 50 =C2-without the problem to date. I have had
the
problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the ensuin
g
misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the new NGK
=99s.
I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple the
Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I ch
anged
the plugs to the NGK=99s and did the plug wire conversion. That led
to a
different problem with RF interference. That is another story for another
setting.
Doc
=C2-
From:
owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
=C2-
Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion
Craig?=C2- I understand about the problem.=C2- I understand that you
were
comparing resistive to non-resistive plugs.
Using the term: "YOU
MUST USE RESISTIVE PLUGS" is pretty strong.=C2- I'll talk to you about
it off line.=C2- Rog?=C2-
=C2-
Later,
=C2-
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
wrote:
From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
To: "yak-list" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM
When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14
type engines, you MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive
type
may conduct an excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils,
leading to rough mag operation.
=C2-
While discussing teething problems in the latest modified
M-14P engine with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered th
e
same problem 3 years ago but never quite made the connection to overheat
ing
of the coils. My situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working
my
way through the pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting
thread and switched spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my
problems went away. While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go aw
ay, I
shelved the mags and haven't changed much since.0A
=C2-
My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but
in another airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the
flight. Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to
better match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher powe
r
settings, I would go back to the BR6HS.
=C2-
Now I'll go back through the pile of mags=C2-and test a
bit when I get the chance.
=C2-
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=C2-
=C2-
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=C2-
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
a>http://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
========================
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========================
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plug Alert |
Because I am trying not to open a box of worms for no real gain. But I
understand your point.. And you asked, so here we go.
Anyone that wants to can simply Google "resistive" versus
"non-resistive" spark plugs and gain insight on how and why they work
the way that they do. The intended goal of resistive plugs was (and
mainly still is) to reduce EMI caused by "ringing" of the spark plug
pulse that can emit energy right on up into the Radio Frequency range.
Keep in mind that the very first radios used "spark gap" transmitters
and their designs were in some ways very similar to an aircraft Mag
firing a spark plug!
So, if you reduce the ringing effect, you also reduce the generation of
energy in the RF range, and thus reduce EMI to radios, VOR's, or
anything else that works with Radio Frequency (RF).
This RF energy could get so strong that it could impact computer
controlled ignition systems, so there was yet another reason to use
Resistive Spark Plugs with more modern computer based ignition systems.
However, in the beginning, a lot of people tried different approaches to
this problem. They actually put resistors in the ignition leads
themselves versus in the spark plugs. Works the same way.
Another big improvement in suppressing mag/spark-plug generated
Electro-Magnetic-Interference (EMI) was with the development of
resistive plug wires. These wires have a resistive value somewhere in
the 4-8 Kilo-ohm range. Typically using a fiberglass core impregnated
with carbon in the early designs, these wires also helped to suppress RF
energy from being radiated and thus causing EMI.
Another way to control the emission of this energy is to simply ignore
it and make no attempt to stop it from being generated, but instead try
to CONTAIN it within some kind of Faraday Shield. Basically a metal
covering that is grounded. Shielded wire falls into this category, as
does wire that is contained in a grounded metal pipe.
Now think of the original design used in the M-14 engines. Take a look
at the plug wires that came with this aircraft. They were stranded
solid wire cores. This is the very best way to get energy from the mag
to the spark plugs. On the other hand, the insulation on the Russian
wire was pretty poor, allowing breakdown, cross-firing, and other bad
stuff to happen... But the PREMISE of the design was typical and very
good. These spark plug wires were contained in a TOTALLY shielded
structure to prevent the very strong RF fields from escaping and being
radiated as EMI. Ditto the spark plugs themselves. Totally contained
in metal shields, nothing left open to radiate, and these plugs were not
resistive... At least the ones I used, although I am no expert on all
the plug types out there. The ones I used had solid copper cores... It
least the one that I cut in half and looked at had that design.
So, now enter the new wire and automotive spark plug design that Dennis
originally offered. It uses ... As I remember anyway... 8 mm Taylor
spiral wound high performance, RF suppressant (read resistive) racing
wire. A silicone insulation layer, and a design that is much more
modern than what the Russians used. Although keep in mind that it is
pretty hard to beat a totally contained ignition system, inside of metal
grounded pipes, when it comes to doing away with radio noise. As good
as the new system is, it is to be expected that there might be a very
SLIGHT increase in ignition noise. This additional noise, if it even
shows itself, can also be addressed with other preventive measures, so
it is not a big deal.
Never-the-less, we now are using resistive wires AND resistive plugs,
and the result is a pretty low EMI level, and no more problems with
insulation and/or replacement... Which before this change was a pure "T"
son of a (you know what) to locate, then change and repair. It was a
PAIN IN THE BUTT! And now is very easy.
Which brings us to the statement of resistive versus non-resistive plugs
burning out mags.
The first question would be: "Why run non-resistive plugs to begin
with?" Well, they do spark a little hotter, and thus you can get more
energy out of them in specific applications, if you want to deal with
the increased EMI. Let's say drag racing for example. I see little
reason to use them in an aircraft engine, so the whole point is kind of
moot to begin with in my opinion. But... It is a good engineering
question, and I like that kind of discussion! So.. Here we are.
But that said, and simply for the sake of discussion, I've never heard
of, or read of, anyone claiming that non-resistive plugs would or could
damage a mag in any way. Also keep in mind that I am not questioning
what Craig said happened to him!
Craig said he ran into a problem where he believed something bad
happened. I THINK... Which means I am not sure... But I THINK he came
to this conclusion because he ran non-resistive plugs and had a problem,
and then ran resistive plugs and the problem went away. And.. He saw
this happen more than once.
The simple conclusion then is to say: "NEVER RUN NON-RESISTIVE PLUGS".
I do not question what happened to him. It may indeed be good advice
based on what happened to him. But in theory, it should not have
happened, and I question his conclusions based on what I feel is a lack
of enough engineering data. Why? Because the original design used
solid low resistance (meaning NON-RESISTIVE) wire AND plugs. So why
would using non-resistive plugs NOW, combined with the fact that we are
also now using RESISTIVE wire cause a problem in a mag that ran fine
before?
Honestly... I am not sure. But it very easily could be caused by other
factors and partial failures or degradation in the mag itself. Two
things come to mind. First the condenser, second the coil. We know
that there are temperature induced failures in the coil. This is well
documented. In fact, the condenser is also suspect in a situation like
this. Craig changed out whole mags in troubleshooting this problem. He
did not replace specific components of the mag, (and neither would I
given the difficulty level of doing so) so I suspect that some
assumptions were made.
A good analogy here would be: "Yo Bob, if you plug a toaster into that
electrical outlet, it will blow up and burn down my house, so don't do
that please!". So, you can put a sign over the outlet and made sure
everyone knows that a fire will occur. Or.. You can go in and fix the
outlet so that you can plug anything into it that you want to.
Bottom line.... I think there is more going on with this incident than
simply saying: "Don't run non-resistive plugs... EVER!... As in: Don't
plug in the toaster." I believe it is possible that this is just
evidence of the tip of an iceberg, and it may be something worth knowing
about.
So simply put... I am not saying that Craig is wrong. I am saying I am
not sure that he is right, and I thought we might talk about it and see
what we might come up with and report it back to the net later, and save
everyone from my typical but overlong postings. :-) Like this one.
But you asked.... :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 9:44 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Automotive Plug Alert
How about discussing it online so the rest of us can benefit from the
discussion?
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=256447#256447
Message 6
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| Subject: | Solid core Vs resistive wires and plugs. |
Mark,
Good points, all.
FWIW
There are too many variables to try and account for the results other people
are getting. We have no control over what they are doing so we need to get
back to basics.
The ORIGINAL design was for the coils to drive a solid wire to a
non-resistive plug. This is to get maximum spark energy to the plugs.
So then if you are using the original coils (magnetos) and swap the wires
and plugs for something else those plugs and wires need to be solid core
wires and non-resistive plugs.
Original equipment magnetos are not known for their spark energy so
you needed a non-resistive path to achieve full spark energy. If you use
resistive wires and/or resistive plugs you are reducing spark energy below
what is already considered a weak spark (by today's standards).
Resistive plugs and wires were developed to reduce EMI without increasing
expense i.a. it would have been expensive to use a shielded system like we
have on aircraft in every passenger car. The coils in passenger cars are
more
powerful than our magnetos so they could get away with doing this.
One of the only vehicles I know of that was produced with solid core wires
was a Corvette and it used shielded wires and a shielded distributor.
The braid around our wires is an EMI shield. The braid is designed to shield
RF emissions. It's sometimes called a Faraday Cage. Solid core wire, non
resistive plugs and shielding was and is the original design for aircraft
ignition systems manufactured by the Russians, Chinese and Americans.
If the original installed ignition system isn't working (is not enough to
suppress radio interference) we need to look for where RF energy is leaking
from. Maybe you have large gaps in the braid, broken braid or braid that is
not grounded on both ends.
We should not be using resistive wires and resistive plugs with the weak
spark energy being produced by original equipment Russian and Chinese mags.
Frank
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Solid core Vs resistive wires and plugs. |
Frank
Good response, and how are you feeling, Salinas is real slow so far today,
but hope it will get busy tonight and the weekend.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank" <frank@orionite.com>
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 2:00 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Solid core Vs resistive wires and plugs.
>
> Mark,
>
> Good points, all.
>
> FWIW
>
> There are too many variables to try and account for the results other
> people
> are getting. We have no control over what they are doing so we need to get
> back to basics.
>
> The ORIGINAL design was for the coils to drive a solid wire to a
> non-resistive plug. This is to get maximum spark energy to the plugs.
>
> So then if you are using the original coils (magnetos) and swap the wires
> and plugs for something else those plugs and wires need to be solid core
> wires and non-resistive plugs.
>
> Original equipment magnetos are not known for their spark energy so
> you needed a non-resistive path to achieve full spark energy. If you use
> resistive wires and/or resistive plugs you are reducing spark energy below
> what is already considered a weak spark (by today's standards).
>
> Resistive plugs and wires were developed to reduce EMI without increasing
> expense i.a. it would have been expensive to use a shielded system like we
> have on aircraft in every passenger car. The coils in passenger cars are
> more
> powerful than our magnetos so they could get away with doing this.
>
> One of the only vehicles I know of that was produced with solid core wires
> was a Corvette and it used shielded wires and a shielded distributor.
>
> The braid around our wires is an EMI shield. The braid is designed to
> shield
> RF emissions. It's sometimes called a Faraday Cage. Solid core wire, non
> resistive plugs and shielding was and is the original design for aircraft
> ignition systems manufactured by the Russians, Chinese and Americans.
>
> If the original installed ignition system isn't working (is not enough to
> suppress radio interference) we need to look for where RF energy is
> leaking
> from. Maybe you have large gaps in the braid, broken braid or braid that
> is
> not grounded on both ends.
>
> We should not be using resistive wires and resistive plugs with the weak
> spark energy being produced by original equipment Russian and Chinese
> mags.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plug Alert |
I'm with Doug, Since 1995 of owning several CJ's I have never had a
Chinese Plug come apart, I have had a few replaced for not passing a
Pressure Check, but never a Blow out with one, and I've replaced alott
of Chinese Plugs, this is why I still use them and not the U.S Plug
conversions.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Doc,
You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!
I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to
respond on the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese
spark plugs I have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5
plugs blow out the centers. Are you 100% sure that you are not
confusing them with the Russian plugs which unfortunately do have a
reputation for blowing out the ceramics?? All that said, if ANY plug,
of any mfg has been dropped all bets are off and it should be treated as
very suspect and IMHO should not be used.
I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but
when it comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug
mod, but at this time my ignition harness seems to be good. It would
seem to me that if all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion
would report in as to which wire and which plug you are running (and if
you have seen any problems) the correct combination of plug type and
wire type would soon be obvious.
Doug
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D.
<viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
Craig,
I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with
its=92 M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil
solved the problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt
Kaahoop and the blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost
set your clock to the heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your
problem by swapping out your mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on
the head with your thoughts about over heating the coils but I seriously
doubt it was the plugs that did that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50
without the problem to date. I have had the problem in the 50 also with
a bad coil causing a discharge with the ensuing misfire. That occurred
with the existing Chinese plugs not the new NGK=92s. I changed the wires
and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple the Chinese plugs (the
ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I changed the plugs
to the NGK=92s and did the plug wire conversion. That led to a different
problem with RF interference. That is another story for another setting.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion
Craig? I understand about the problem. I understand that you were
comparing resistive to non-resistive plugs. Using the term: "YOU MUST
USE RESISTIVE PLUGS" is pretty strong. I'll talk to you about it off
line. Rog?
Later,
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
To: "yak-list" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM
When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14
type engines, you MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive
type may conduct an excess amount of current, overheating the magneto
coils, leading to rough mag operation.
While discussing teething problems in the latest modified
M-14P engine with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered
the same problem 3 years ago but never quite made the connection to
overheating of the coils. My situtation caused me to assume bad mags.
After working my way through the pile of mags I have, I lost track of my
troubleshooting thread and switched spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS
motorcycle plug and my problems went away. While I wasn't sure what
caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags and haven't changed
much since.
My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in
another airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the
flight. Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to
better match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher
power settings, I would go back to the BR6HS.
Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit
when I get the chance.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
=nofollow
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listet=_blank>ht
tp://forums.matronics.comllow
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhtt
p://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
a>http://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: Solid core Vs resistive wires and plugs. |
Jim,
That wasn't me. I feel a little better just got up 3:00 Pm. At least the
room isn't going around but I feel like crap.
Frank
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim" <jimscjs@mbay.net>
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Solid core Vs resistive wires and plugs.
>
> Frank
>
> Good response, and how are you feeling, Salinas is real slow so far today,
> but hope it will get busy tonight and the weekend.
> Jim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank" <frank@orionite.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 2:00 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Solid core Vs resistive wires and plugs.
>
>
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Good points, all.
>>
>> FWIW
>>
>> There are too many variables to try and account for the results other
>> people
>> are getting. We have no control over what they are doing so we need to
>> get
>> back to basics.
>>
>> The ORIGINAL design was for the coils to drive a solid wire to a
>> non-resistive plug. This is to get maximum spark energy to the plugs.
>>
>> So then if you are using the original coils (magnetos) and swap the wires
>> and plugs for something else those plugs and wires need to be solid core
>> wires and non-resistive plugs.
>>
>> Original equipment magnetos are not known for their spark energy so
>> you needed a non-resistive path to achieve full spark energy. If you use
>> resistive wires and/or resistive plugs you are reducing spark energy
>> below
>> what is already considered a weak spark (by today's standards).
>>
>> Resistive plugs and wires were developed to reduce EMI without increasing
>> expense i.a. it would have been expensive to use a shielded system like
>> we
>> have on aircraft in every passenger car. The coils in passenger cars are
>> more
>> powerful than our magnetos so they could get away with doing this.
>>
>> One of the only vehicles I know of that was produced with solid core
>> wires
>> was a Corvette and it used shielded wires and a shielded distributor.
>>
>> The braid around our wires is an EMI shield. The braid is designed to
>> shield
>> RF emissions. It's sometimes called a Faraday Cage. Solid core wire, non
>> resistive plugs and shielding was and is the original design for aircraft
>> ignition systems manufactured by the Russians, Chinese and Americans.
>>
>> If the original installed ignition system isn't working (is not enough to
>> suppress radio interference) we need to look for where RF energy is
>> leaking
>> from. Maybe you have large gaps in the braid, broken braid or braid that
>> is
>> not grounded on both ends.
>>
>> We should not be using resistive wires and resistive plugs with the weak
>> spark energy being produced by original equipment Russian and Chinese
>> mags.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Automotive Plug Alert |
Doug,
I resent and take it personal that you feel I seem to be special when it
comes to shit happening. Yes one of the plugs I had trouble with blowing out
was a Russian plug on the YAK 52. I replaced all the plugs with Chinese
plugs after that approximately 3 years ago that came from you via Dennis. I
have been running those plugs since without an issue. When I was cleaning
and testing all my plugs, re gapping them, and then putting them in the
testor, I found one that was cracked and breaking down under load. The core
did not blow out. No I did not drop the plug. The torque when I put them in
a year ago was 25 ft/lbs. I replaced it with a new plug.from you as a matter
of fact. I think if I search around in my junk box I can find that plug.
I'll send it to you if you like. No the plug did not blow out like the Ru
plugs did. No I'm not out to kill you plug business. I personally think the
Chinese plugs have performed well. But with shit statements like this one I
will certainly consider ripping my perfectly good new Ru harness out and
replace the plugs with NGK's if we are going to get into pissing contests
about one cracked ceramic insert out of 18 in 3 years of fairly hard use in
the 52.
Now as the plugs relate to the 50 here is the story and I'm sticking to it.
The 50 came through KS via a Shackety IRAN. Yes I found two plugs breaking
down with cracked ceramic cores on them when they were put on the Testor.
Since the wiring harness was old on that plane, I chose to replace the whole
system with Dennis' auto plug conversion kit. I have not been disappointed
with the change. I have also not been disappointed with the Chinese plugs I
have in the 52 3 years later.
No Doug, I did not look to close at the hieroglyphics scribbled on the sides
of those plugs but it certainly did not look Cyrilic but I'm not a linguist.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Doc,
You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!
I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond on
the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark plugs I
have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow out the
centers. Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them with the Russian
plugs which unfortunately do have a reputation for blowing out the
ceramics?? All that said, if ANY plug, of any mfg has been dropped all bets
are off and it should be treated as very suspect and IMHO should not be
used.
I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when it
comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod, but at
this time my ignition harness seems to be good. It would seem to me that if
all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion would report in as to
which wire and which plug you are running (and if you have seen any
problems) the correct combination of plug type and wire type would soon be
obvious.
Doug
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Craig,
I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its'
M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved the
problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the
blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to the
heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out your
mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts
about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that did
that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50 without the problem to date. I have had
the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the
ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the new
NGK's. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple
the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I
changed the plugs to the NGK's and did the plug wire conversion. That led to
a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for another
setting.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion Craig? I
understand about the problem. I understand that you were comparing
resistive to non-resistive plugs. Using the term: "YOU MUST USE RESISTIVE
PLUGS" is pretty strong. I'll talk to you about it off line. Rog?
Later,
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, you
MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an
excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough
mag operation.
While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine with
a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3 years
ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My
situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the
pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switched
spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away.
While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags
and haven't changed much since.
My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another
airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight.
Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better
match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settings,
I would go back to the BR6HS.
Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get the
chance.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
<http://us.mc507.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cpayne@joimail.com>
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
a>http://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 11
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| Subject: | Flying with Canopies open |
I was looking at pictures on airliners dot net and saw this one of a
CJ with BOTH canopies open in flight. I thought there was a
restriction that only one canopy can be opened at a time?
Here is the link and the photo
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Nanchang-CJ-6A/1538950/L/&sid=eb2c6fcde21a5e1612f307944397bb31
Med
Message 12
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| Subject: | Automotive Plug Alert |
Blown was a poor term. Breaking down under pressure on the testor would have
been a better choice of words. My bad.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
I'm with Doug, Since 1995 of owning several CJ's I have never had a Chinese
Plug come apart, I have had a few replaced for not passing a Pressure Check,
but never a Blow out with one, and I've replaced alott of Chinese Plugs,
this is why I still use them and not the U.S Plug conversions.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp <mailto:dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Doc,
You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!
I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond on
the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark plugs I
have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow out the
centers. Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them with the Russian
plugs which unfortunately do have a reputation for blowing out the
ceramics?? All that said, if ANY plug, of any mfg has been dropped all bets
are off and it should be treated as very suspect and IMHO should not be
used.
I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when it
comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod, but at
this time my ignition harness seems to be good. It would seem to me that if
all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion would report in as to
which wire and which plug you are running (and if you have seen any
problems) the correct combination of plug type and wire type would soon be
obvious.
Doug
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Craig,
I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its'
M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved the
problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the
blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to the
heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out your
mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts
about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that did
that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50 without the problem to date. I have had
the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the
ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the new
NGK's. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple
the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I
changed the plugs to the NGK's and did the plug wire conversion. That led to
a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for another
setting.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion Craig? I
understand about the problem. I understand that you were comparing
resistive to non-resistive plugs. Using the term: "YOU MUST USE RESISTIVE
PLUGS" is pretty strong. I'll talk to you about it off line. Rog?
Later,
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, you
MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an
excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough
mag operation.
While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine with
a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3 years
ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My
situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the
pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switched
spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away.
While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags
and haven't changed much since.
My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another
airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight.
Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better
match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settings,
I would go back to the BR6HS.
Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get the
chance.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
<http://us.mc507.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cpayne@joimail.com>
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
a>http://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plug Alert |
On Chinese spark plugs.
I just yesterday replaced a set of DZ5 plugs at a CJ6 annual inspection.
The reason for replacement was simply that they had 393 Hrs in service.
They were showing some wear though still operating just fine but
certifying for a further 100 Hrs. was a little problematic
Champion could take some lessons from the Chinese
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Doc,
You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!
I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to
respond on the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese
spark plugs I have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5
plugs blow out the centers. Are you 100% sure that you are not
confusing them with the Russian plugs which unfortunately do have a
reputation for blowing out the ceramics?? All that said, if ANY plug,
of any mfg has been dropped all bets are off and it should be treated as
very suspect and IMHO should not be used.
I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but
when it comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug
mod, but at this time my ignition harness seems to be good. It would
seem to me that if all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion
would report in as to which wire and which plug you are running (and if
you have seen any problems) the correct combination of plug type and
wire type would soon be obvious.
Doug
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D.
<viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
Craig,
I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with
its=92 M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil
solved the problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt
Kaahoop and the blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost
set your clock to the heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your
problem by swapping out your mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on
the head with your thoughts about over heating the coils but I seriously
doubt it was the plugs that did that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50
without the problem to date. I have had the problem in the 50 also with
a bad coil causing a discharge with the ensuing misfire. That occurred
with the existing Chinese plugs not the new NGK=92s. I changed the wires
and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple the Chinese plugs (the
ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I changed the plugs
to the NGK=92s and did the plug wire conversion. That led to a different
problem with RF interference. That is another story for another setting.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion
Craig? I understand about the problem. I understand that you were
comparing resistive to non-resistive plugs. Using the term: "YOU MUST
USE RESISTIVE PLUGS" is pretty strong. I'll talk to you about it off
line. Rog?
Later,
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
To: "yak-list" <yak-list@matronics.com>
Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM
When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14
type engines, you MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive
type may conduct an excess amount of current, overheating the magneto
coils, leading to rough mag operation.
While discussing teething problems in the latest modified
M-14P engine with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered
the same problem 3 years ago but never quite made the connection to
overheating of the coils. My situtation caused me to assume bad mags.
After working my way through the pile of mags I have, I lost track of my
troubleshooting thread and switched spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS
motorcycle plug and my problems went away. While I wasn't sure what
caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags and haven't changed
much since.
My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in
another airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the
flight. Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to
better match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher
power settings, I would go back to the BR6HS.
Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit
when I get the chance.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
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Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
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One of the problems with the Chinese and Russian Magnetos is the
placement of the capacitor within the coil. The coils run hot which
degrades the capacitor. If one looks at the Mallory Super Mags and
Sprint Mags the coil is outside the magneto. Looking at the top Fuel
dragsters and Funny Cars the MSD Magneto coils are outside the magnetos.
When ever high currents and coils are involved heat is an enemy.
Eventually even the Vertex Magneto was available with an external coil.
The Taylor Plug wire used in the auto conversions is not really a
resistor wire but is a spiral wound wire which somewhat defeats the
unwanted radiated RF energy, due to the use of finer wire and the spiral
winding adding to the effective wire length the resistance is higher
than the Russian of Chinese wire.
Frank CJ-6A
N23021
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