Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:52 AM - Re: Automotive Plug Alert (doug sapp)
2. 07:48 AM - Re: Flying with Canopies open (doug sapp)
3. 10:43 AM - Re: Automotive Plug Alert (Roger Kemp M.D.)
4. 05:12 PM - Re: Flying with Canopies open (Ahmed M. Ragheb)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plug Alert |
WHOA DOC!
Did not mean to push your button!
I only stated what seems obvious from the majority of your posts, and that
is you have had a lot of shit happen in your long
and colorfull aviation career. I really did not think of that as
a negative and if my choice of words offends you I am truly sorry.
I apologize.
With respect to the Chinese plugs "blowing out", I think your most recent
post confirms that they in fact did not not. You simply mis spoke, or like
me used a poor choice of words to convey the thought. All that said, to me
the issue of the centers blowing out is far more than a plug issue it is
a safety issue. The loss of the ceramics on a set of Russian plugs has
already resulted in the deaths of two pilots, caused many thousands of
dollars of damage in a Pitts Mod 12, and burnt holes in several cowls
and baffling. I am sure that there are for more instances than these which
I have not heard about. To imply that the Chinese plugs suffer from the
same problem as the Russian plugs, is simply not true.
With respect to these posts damaging my plug sales. If you had called me
and asked me about the auto plug mod (many guys have) the answer you will
get is that I too am going that direction as soon as my leads show the firs
t
sign of starting to break down. Would I change to auto plugs just for the
sake of changing?? No I would not. I don't think it is cost effective as
long as the leads are OK. But with our local shop time @$65.00 per hour
hour (yours is most likely more), trouble shooting and replacing a defectiv
e
leads simply does not make sense to me, it's simply auto plug time.
Hopefully by that time we will have it all sorted out as to which plug to
use with which wire.
By the way I run auto plugs in my exp. cub already and think they are great
.
Plugging along,
Doug
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>wr
ote:
> Doug,
>
> I resent and take it personal that you feel I seem to be special when it
> comes to shit happening. Yes one of the plugs I had trouble with blowing
out
> was a Russian plug on the YAK 52. I replaced all the plugs with Chinese
> plugs after that approximately 3 years ago that came from you via Dennis
. I
> have been running those plugs since without an issue. When I was cleaning
> and testing all my plugs, re gapping them, and then putting them in the
> testor, I found one that was cracked and breaking down under load. The co
re
> did not blow out. No I did not drop the plug. The torque when I put them
in
> a year ago was 25 ft/lbs. I replaced it with a new plug=85from you as a m
atter
> of fact. I think if I search around in my junk box I can find that plug.
> I=92ll send it to you if you like. No the plug did not blow out like the
Ru
> plugs did. No I=92m not out to kill you plug business. I personally think
the
> Chinese plugs have performed well. But with shit statements like this on
e I
> will certainly consider ripping my perfectly good new Ru harness out and
> replace the plugs with NGK=92s if we are going to get into pissing contes
ts
> about one cracked ceramic insert out of 18 in 3 years of fairly hard use
in
> the 52.
>
> Now as the plugs relate to the 50 here is the story and I=92m sticking to
it.
>
>
> The 50 came through KS via a Shackety IRAN. Yes I found two plugs
> breaking down with cracked ceramic cores on them when they were put on th
e
> Testor. Since the wiring harness was old on that plane, I chose to replac
e
> the whole system with Dennis=92 auto plug conversion kit. I have not been
> disappointed with the change. I have also not been disappointed with the
> Chinese plugs I have in the 52 3 years later.
>
> No Doug, I did not look to close at the hieroglyphics scribbled on the
> sides of those plugs but it certainly did not look Cyrilic but I=92m not
a
> linguist.
>
> Doc
>
>
> *From:* owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *doug sapp
> *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2009 10:28 AM
>
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
>
>
> Doc,
>
> You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!
>
>
> I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond
on
> the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark plugs
I
> have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow out th
e
> centers. Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them with the Russ
ian
> plugs which unfortunately do have a reputation for blowing out the
> ceramics?? All that said, if ANY plug, of any mfg has been dropped all b
ets
> are off and it should be treated as very suspect and IMHO should not be
> used.
>
>
> I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when
> it comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod, b
ut
> at this time my ignition harness seems to be good. It would seem to me t
hat
> if all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion would report in
as
> to which wire and which plug you are running (and if you have seen any
> problems) the correct combination of plug type and wire type would soon
> be obvious.
>
>
> Doug
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
> Craig,
>
> I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its
=92
> M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved t
he
> problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the
> blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to t
he
> heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out yo
ur
> mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts
> about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that
did
> that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50 without the problem to date. I have
had
> the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the
> ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the ne
w
> NGK=92s. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a c
ouple
> the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So
I
> changed the plugs to the NGK=92s and did the plug wire conversion. That l
ed to
> a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for anoth
er
> setting.
>
> Doc
>
>
> *From:* owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Yak Pilot
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
>
>
> Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion Craig? I
> understand about the problem. I understand that you were comparing
> resistive to non-resistive plugs. Using the term: "YOU MUST USE RESISTIV
E
> PLUGS" is pretty strong. I'll talk to you about it off line. Rog?
>
>
> Later,
>
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
> To: "yak-list" <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM
>
> When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, yo
u
> MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an
> excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough
> mag operation.
>
>
> While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine wi
th
> a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3 ye
ars
> ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My
> situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the
> pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switch
ed
> spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away.
> While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mag
s
> and haven't changed much since.
>
>
> My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another
> airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight.
> Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better
> match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settin
gs,
> I would go back to the BR6HS.
>
>
> Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get the
> chance.
>
>
> Craig Payne
>
> cpayne@joimail.com<http://us.mc507.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cpayne@
joimail.com>
>
>
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> --
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
> Phone 509-826-4610
> Fax 509-826-3644
>
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Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
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| Subject: | Re: Flying with Canopies open |
Med,
I know of no warning in the Chinese manuals which would indicate
that there is a problem flying the CJ6 with both canopies full open.
However a bit of caution is needed in moving the rear canopy to the full
open position while in cruise. If you fumble it and it slams back it could
jump the stops and come off. I have sold two rear canopies because of this.
So get a good hold on the ball before you slide it back.
Doug
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Ahmed M. Ragheb <f16ftrplt@aol.com> wrote:
> I was looking at pictures on airliners dot net and saw this one of a CJ
> with BOTH canopies open in flight. I thought there was a restriction that
> only one canopy can be opened at a time?
> Here is the link and the photo
>
> http://www.airliners.net/photo/Nanchang-CJ-6A/1538950/L/&sid=eb2c6fcde21a5e1612f307944397bb31
> Med
>
>
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
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| Subject: | Automotive Plug Alert |
Doug,
We both owe each other apologies and I apologize for jumping the gun and
misinterpreting your post.
Yes, I think have both had our share of close calls with both civilian and
military aircraft. I remember hearing of your close call with an apple
orchard on final from an engine failure.
We can sort the rest our over a beer sometime. I'll buy the first round the
next is on you.
As for the plugs it was the ceramic insert that was cracked with the plugs
breaking down under pressure on the tester. The center of the plug did not
blow out.
Ol Friend.we've flown long enough that we will have experienced a lot of
shit happening. It just adds to our character, clue bag, causes gray hair,
and hair loss.
NO I'm not pulling my Chinese plugs and wire harness out of my 52 until
there is a real reason to do so.
As stated before, I have been pleased with my NGK plugs and plug wire
conversion in the 50. Even if I have had more RF from the conversion. Adding
filters to the mags and the D/C converter has markedly decreased that noise.
I know Mark, we've had this conversation too. At this point, I'm not going
to reinstall the (Faraday's cages) in the form of the wire mesh harness
bundle. Just to big of a pain. I can live with the noise since I added the
filters.
Even if it has less spark with the spiral wrap plug wires and resitive
plugs. It still starts with 1 tic of the blades and runs away from everyone
else in the flight flying at the same power settings. So, I'm leaving well
enough alone. To many other fish to fry. Besides I spend working on the
plane, the less time there is for aviating.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
WHOA DOC!
Did not mean to push your button!
I only stated what seems obvious from the majority of your posts, and that
is you have had a lot of shit happen in your long and colorfull aviation
career. I really did not think of that as a negative and if my choice of
words offends you I am truly sorry. I apologize.
With respect to the Chinese plugs "blowing out", I think your most recent
post confirms that they in fact did not not. You simply mis spoke, or like
me used a poor choice of words to convey the thought. All that said, to me
the issue of the centers blowing out is far more than a plug issue it is a
safety issue. The loss of the ceramics on a set of Russian plugs has
already resulted in the deaths of two pilots, caused many thousands of
dollars of damage in a Pitts Mod 12, and burnt holes in several cowls and
baffling. I am sure that there are for more instances than these which I
have not heard about. To imply that the Chinese plugs suffer from the same
problem as the Russian plugs, is simply not true.
With respect to these posts damaging my plug sales. If you had called me
and asked me about the auto plug mod (many guys have) the answer you will
get is that I too am going that direction as soon as my leads show the first
sign of starting to break down. Would I change to auto plugs just for the
sake of changing?? No I would not. I don't think it is cost effective as
long as the leads are OK. But with our local shop time @$65.00 per hour
hour (yours is most likely more), trouble shooting and replacing a defective
leads simply does not make sense to me, it's simply auto plug time.
Hopefully by that time we will have it all sorted out as to which plug to
use with which wire.
By the way I run auto plugs in my exp. cub already and think they are great.
Plugging along,
Doug
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Doug,
I resent and take it personal that you feel I seem to be special when it
comes to shit happening. Yes one of the plugs I had trouble with blowing out
was a Russian plug on the YAK 52. I replaced all the plugs with Chinese
plugs after that approximately 3 years ago that came from you via Dennis. I
have been running those plugs since without an issue. When I was cleaning
and testing all my plugs, re gapping them, and then putting them in the
testor, I found one that was cracked and breaking down under load. The core
did not blow out. No I did not drop the plug. The torque when I put them in
a year ago was 25 ft/lbs. I replaced it with a new plug.from you as a matter
of fact. I think if I search around in my junk box I can find that plug.
I'll send it to you if you like. No the plug did not blow out like the Ru
plugs did. No I'm not out to kill you plug business. I personally think the
Chinese plugs have performed well. But with shit statements like this one I
will certainly consider ripping my perfectly good new Ru harness out and
replace the plugs with NGK's if we are going to get into pissing contests
about one cracked ceramic insert out of 18 in 3 years of fairly hard use in
the 52.
Now as the plugs relate to the 50 here is the story and I'm sticking to it.
The 50 came through KS via a Shackety IRAN. Yes I found two plugs breaking
down with cracked ceramic cores on them when they were put on the Testor.
Since the wiring harness was old on that plane, I chose to replace the whole
system with Dennis' auto plug conversion kit. I have not been disappointed
with the change. I have also not been disappointed with the Chinese plugs I
have in the 52 3 years later.
No Doug, I did not look to close at the hieroglyphics scribbled on the sides
of those plugs but it certainly did not look Cyrilic but I'm not a linguist.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Doc,
You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!
I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond on
the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark plugs I
have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow out the
centers. Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them with the Russian
plugs which unfortunately do have a reputation for blowing out the
ceramics?? All that said, if ANY plug, of any mfg has been dropped all bets
are off and it should be treated as very suspect and IMHO should not be
used.
I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when it
comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod, but at
this time my ignition harness seems to be good. It would seem to me that if
all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion would report in as to
which wire and which plug you are running (and if you have seen any
problems) the correct combination of plug type and wire type would soon be
obvious.
Doug
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Craig,
I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its'
M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved the
problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the
blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to the
heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out your
mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts
about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that did
that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50 without the problem to date. I have had
the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the
ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the new
NGK's. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple
the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I
changed the plugs to the NGK's and did the plug wire conversion. That led to
a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for another
setting.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion Craig? I
understand about the problem. I understand that you were comparing
resistive to non-resistive plugs. Using the term: "YOU MUST USE RESISTIVE
PLUGS" is pretty strong. I'll talk to you about it off line. Rog?
Later,
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
From: Craig Payne <cpayne@joimail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert
When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, you
MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an
excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough
mag operation.
While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine with
a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3 years
ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My
situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the
pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switched
spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away.
While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags
and haven't changed much since.
My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another
airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight.
Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better
match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settings,
I would go back to the BR6HS.
Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get the
chance.
Craig Payne
cpayne@joimail.com
<http://us.mc507.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cpayne@joimail.com>
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
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et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
a>http://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
Phone 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Flying with Canopies open |
Doug,
Thank you for the response. I went flying and had the canopy open and
locked in the full open position. It was fine. I guess the original
Chinese configuration with the partition between the cockpits helps to
reduce the wind blast for rear cockpit occupant.
Med
On Aug 10, 2009, at 10:44 AM, doug sapp wrote:
> Med,
> I know of no warning in the Chinese manuals which would indicate
> that there is a problem flying the CJ6 with both canopies full
> open. However a bit of caution is needed in moving the rear canopy
> to the full open position while in cruise. If you fumble it and it
> slams back it could jump the stops and come off. I have sold two
> rear canopies because of this. So get a good hold on the ball
> before you slide it back.
>
> Doug
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Ahmed M. Ragheb <f16ftrplt@aol.com>
> wrote:
> I was looking at pictures on airliners dot net and saw this one of a
> CJ with BOTH canopies open in flight. I thought there was a
> restriction that only one canopy can be opened at a time?
> Here is the link and the photo
> http://www.airliners.net/photo/Nanchang-CJ-6A/1538950/L/&sid=eb2c6fcde21a5e1612f307944397bb31
> Med
>
>
> --
> Always Yakin,
> Doug Sapp
> Phone 509-826-4610
> Fax 509-826-3644
>
>
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