Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:54 AM - Re: Engine Problem (Dennis Von Ruden)
2. 07:19 AM - Re: Engine Problem (ronald wasson)
3. 07:21 AM - Re: Engine Problem (William Halverson)
4. 07:23 AM - Over-priming (Richard Goode)
5. 07:24 AM - Re: Over-priming (dabear)
6. 07:47 AM - Re: Over-priming (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 07:48 AM - Re: Engine Problem (A. Dennis Savarese)
8. 07:51 AM - Re: Over-priming (jblake207@COMCAST.NET)
9. 08:22 AM - Re: Over-priming (Terry Calloway)
10. 08:47 AM - Re: New Yak 55 Gills for sale (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
11. 09:20 AM - Over-priming (Richard Goode)
12. 01:33 PM - SV: Engine Problem (=?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_Dale?=)
13. 02:53 PM - Re: Over-priming (Nigel Willson)
14. 03:21 PM - Re: Over-priming (William Halverson)
15. 05:22 PM - Re: Over-priming (A. Dennis Savarese)
16. 05:22 PM - Re: Over-priming (A. Dennis Savarese)
17. 11:28 PM - Re: Yak 52/55/18T Shutters & Ring (Willaim Lang)
Message 1
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Actually, I didn't have time to do a lot except put a plan together to get
it down as fast and safe as possible. When the power came back up, I took t
he opportunity to change my original plan and land at the airport. Somethin
g like this gives you the opportunity to do a little thinking as to the cau
se. I originally thought it was fuel related, but have changed my mind afte
r cleaning the screen. Everything was very clean. I'm starting to think mor
e ignition.
Thanks
Dennis
Dennis Von Ruden
General Equipment Company
507.451.5510 (P)
507.451.5511 (F)
dvonruden@generalequip.com
________________________________
From: William Halverson [mailto:william@netpros.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine Problem
Hmmm ... did it sound/feel different than going to one mag while in the
air?
At 08:45 PM 9/17/2009, ronald wasson wrote:
Mag coil going bad. Comes and goes. Scared me silly till I found it. On
e mag misfiring can affect the motor big time. Friend chased this problem
on his 52 for years. He helped me find mine and switch Mags. Sounded like t
he motor quit it was so bad. Mag fixed it.
On Sep 17, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Dennis Von Ruden wrote:
I took off this evening in my stock CJ and experience a significant reduc
tion in engine power as I was turning crosswind. I didn't have time to look
at all the gauges, but my power did come back to full. Don't know if crank
ing on the wobble pump had any effect. My gear was up and I was concentrati
ng on my airspeed and altitude. I realized that rather than land normally,
I could land "downwind" on a zero wind evening (5500 foot runway). No other
problems.
The engine acted normal while taxiing back to the hangar and during shutd
own procedures.
1) Full power came back in flight.
2) Had approximately 24 gallons of fuel. (15 in starboard, 9 in port)
3) Normal run up.
4) Fuel was ON.
5) Primer was locked.
6) Fuel pressure on take-off was in the high green (which has been no
rmal over my 30 hours in this aircraft) on the take-off roll.
7) I have the JPI 700 Analyzer installed and everything looked normal
on the take-off roll.
8) Drained fuel from the sump before flight and it was clean.
9) Remote chance for icing today in Minnesota...79=B0F and low humidi
ty. The needle was not even close to the yellow on the gauge.
10) Did notice however...that the engine ran a bit rougher between 1200 a
nd1600 RPM during the run up.
Back in the hangar, I drained the fuel screen on the firewall and found n
othing. The aircraft was going in for a condition inspection next week. Not
hing out of the ordinary. The engine has 35 hours since the first Chinese o
verhaul and has been running very well since completing the restoration. An
y ideas to discuss with my mechanic tomorrow?
Don't want to do this everyday.
<image002.gif>Dennis Von Ruden
General Equipment Company
507.451.5510 (P)
507.451.5511 (F)
dvonruden@generalequip.com
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Problem |
this is not like one mag shutoff. The mag is misfiring and affects the
motor like both mags have a problem. Comes and goes very fast and hard
to prove.
Message 3
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Understood. The reason I ask is I occasionally
run on one mag at altitude so see if there is any
roughness I don't sense on my ground run up
... I thought perhaps what you experienced
might be similar to what I do on one mag.
At 06:17 AM 9/18/2009, Dennis Von Ruden wrote:
>Actually, I didn=92t have time to do a lot except
>put a plan together to get it down as fast and
>safe as possible. When the power came back up, I
>took the opportunity to change my original plan
>and land at the airport. Something like this
>gives you the opportunity to do a little
>thinking as to the cause. I originally thought
>it was fuel related, but have changed my mind
>after cleaning the screen. Everything was very
>clean. I=92m starting to think more ignition.
>
>Thanks
>
>Dennis
>
>[]
>Dennis Von Ruden
>
>
>General Equipment Company
>507.451.5510 (P)
>507.451.5511 (F)
>dvonruden@generalequip.com
>
>----------
>From: William Halverson [mailto:william@netpros.net]
>Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:41 PM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine Problem
>
>
>Hmmm ... did it sound/feel different than going to one mag while in the
air?
>
>
>At 08:45 PM 9/17/2009, ronald wasson wrote:
>
>Mag coil going bad. Comes and goes. Scared me
>silly till I found it. One mag misfiring can
>affect the motor big time. Friend chased this
>problem on his 52 for years. He helped me find
>mine and switch Mags. Sounded like the motor quit it was so bad. Mag fixed
it.
>
>
>On Sep 17, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Dennis Von Ruden wrote:
>
>
>I took off this evening in my stock CJ and
>experience a significant reduction in engine
>power as I was turning crosswind. I didn=92t have
>time to look at all the gauges, but my power did
>come back to full. Don=92t know if cranking on the
>wobble pump had any effect. My gear was up and I
>was concentrating on my airspeed and altitude. I
>realized that rather than land normally, I could
>land =93downwind=94 on a zero wind evening (5500 foot runway). No other
problems.
>
>The engine acted normal while taxiing back to
>the hangar and during shutdown procedures.
>
>1) Full power came back in flight.
>2) Had approximately 24 gallons of fuel. (15 in starboard, 9 in port)
>3) Normal run up.
>4) Fuel was ON.
>5) Primer was locked.
>6) Fuel pressure on take-off was in the high
>green (which has been normal over my 30 hours in
>this aircraft) on the take-off roll.
>7) I have the JPI 700 Analyzer installed and
>everything looked normal on the take-off roll.
>8) Drained fuel from the sump before flight and it was clean.
>9) Remote chance for icing today in
>Minnesota=8579=B0F and low humidity. The needle was
>not even close to the yellow on the gauge.
>10) Did notice however=85that the engine ran a bit
>rougher between 1200 and1600 RPM during the run up.
>
>Back in the hangar, I drained the fuel screen on
>the firewall and found nothing. The aircraft was
>going in for a condition inspection next week.
>Nothing out of the ordinary. The engine has 35
>hours since the first Chinese overhaul and has
>been running very well since completing the
>restoration. Any ideas to discuss with my mechanic tomorrow?
>
>Don=92t want to do this everyday.
>
><image002.gif>Dennis Von Ruden
>
>
>General Equipment Company
>507.451.5510 (P)
>507.451.5511 (F)
><mailto:dvonruden@generalequip.com>dvonruden@generalequip.com
>
>
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>this e mail in error, and are not the
>recipient(s) or responsible for receiving this e
>mail for the recipient, please inform the sender
>immediately, delete the e mail and any attachment(s) associated.
>This email has been scanned by Barracuda - Email Security System.
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 4
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There seem to be a lot of methods for priming - by definition, they
cannot all be correct. It does help to understand how the system
works:
There are two positions on the priming pump:
a.. Cylinder, and line (sometimes also written as system).
b.. Excessive priming into the cylinder will over-prime, and that can
have serious effects!
c.. Priming into line / system is simply priming the carburettor and
building up fuel pressure. You can do this all day, and excess fuel
simply returns back from the carburettor.
d.. The Russian manuals are misleading in that they are all geared to
having an external engineer to turn the propeller. Of course this is
fine if you have such a person, but most of us do not, and it really is
most inconvenient to keep hoping in and out of the cockpit, and quite
simply, it is not necessary.
So the correct procedure is:
a.. Turn the prop at least 10 complete revolutions to avoid
hydraulic-lock.
b.. In the aeroplane, select line/system, and pump a good number of
times. I say a number of times, simply because in hot weather etc you
can get air in the system, and given that it does not matter if you
over-prime on line/system, you want to make sure that each pump is
totally fuel and not air before priming onto cylinder.
c.. Prime onto cylinder - between 3 and 5 primes is all you need.
More than 5 and you are almost certainly over- priming.
d.. Check that you still have good fuel pressure from the priming to
line/system; if not, a couple more pumps on the line/system to build it
up.
e.. Set throttle.
f.. Start with magnetos off, and then on when it fires.
g.. Having left the primer out, but on the cylinder side, as soon as
if fires give it one pump - possibly more in cold weather, but again no
more than that.
h.. Keep the engine running on the throttle.
i.. Lock primer.
Of course if you have someone outside to turn the prop through 2/3
revolutions while the cylinders are being primed, this is helpful, but
not necessary.
IF however air is low, then it is worth while sucking in while priming,
or if by your self (having checked everything is off) having primed on
cylinder then do the priming.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Over-priming |
Sorry I missed that. yes, throttle open about 3/4 of on inch.
Dabear
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Dennis Savarese
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Do you have the throttle completely closed when you hit the start
button the first time?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
It is interesting how much difference their is with starting
techniques for
the M14P (and the 285). I don't recommend all the getting up and
down
between the cockpit (priming, pulling through, etc)
I've put 700 hours on the M14P between my yak-52 and the CJ. I've
always
started it the same and it "almost always" starts on the 2nd or 3rd
blade
unless there is an issue (nitrogen only in the system, mags off in
the back,
etc). I believe if the air distribution system and spark system is
correct
on the M14P, it will start just fine by
1. Pulling through (checking for H-lock)
2. Closing the intake drain
3. Getting in the cockpit
4. Fuel pressure (wobble pump)
5. Prime 3 times (with fuel; it make take a shot or two for the
primer to
fill with fuel); plus 1 shot of prime for every 10degC below 50 of
Oil temp)
6. Hit the starter, and turn the mags on after she starts.
The only thing I've changed over the years is to leave the primer in
the
cocked position (not directly strait) until the engine is fully
started. I
then move it to the locked position.
That is my opinion, your mileage may vary.
Dabear
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Over-priming
Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> For what it is worth....
>
> All M-14's that I deal with have the intake drain kit installed.
> Typically I prime the engine with that drain left OPEN. I pull
the prop
> through after priming and at the same time......if I have
over-primed
> the engine, the excess fuel simply runs out the intake drain. I
suppose
> that it is possible that you could fill a cylinder up with fuel
anyway,
> but it's pretty hard to do.. .and it has never happened to me, and
I do
> tend to over-prime. Of course I close it before starting... But
it
> remains an effective way to keep from SERIOUSLY over-priming the
engine.
> I offer it only as a thought, but it does work for me.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Goode
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:36 AM
> To: YAK USA LIST
> Subject: Yak-List: Over-priming
>
> Over-priming
>
> We have just lost a Sukhoi in Europe, after over-priming on
start-up.
>
> We have had several before, leading to scorched engines and
cowlings,
> but, in this case, the aeroplane was totally destroyed.
>
> So be warned, and only prime to the extent that is absolutely
necessary
> to start. Also, if a fire does start, then it is vital to keep
cranking
> the engine over, even if it does not start. This will suck
excess fuel
> and vapour into the engine, and probably put the fire out if it is
> small.
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Herefordshire
> HR5 3LW
> United Kingdom
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
> www.russianaeros.com
>
>
>
>
>
> nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
========================<
; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Over-priming |
Ahhh. That's what I thought. Just like we used to start a carbureted
engine in our cars when we were younger.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Sorry I missed that. yes, throttle open about 3/4 of on inch.
Dabear
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Dennis Savarese
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Do you have the throttle completely closed when you hit the start
button the first time?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
It is interesting how much difference their is with starting
techniques for
the M14P (and the 285). I don't recommend all the getting up and
down
between the cockpit (priming, pulling through, etc)
I've put 700 hours on the M14P between my yak-52 and the CJ. I've
always
started it the same and it "almost always" starts on the 2nd or
3rd blade
unless there is an issue (nitrogen only in the system, mags off in
the back,
etc). I believe if the air distribution system and spark system
is correct
on the M14P, it will start just fine by
1. Pulling through (checking for H-lock)
2. Closing the intake drain
3. Getting in the cockpit
4. Fuel pressure (wobble pump)
5. Prime 3 times (with fuel; it make take a shot or two for the
primer to
fill with fuel); plus 1 shot of prime for every 10degC below 50 of
Oil temp)
6. Hit the starter, and turn the mags on after she starts.
The only thing I've changed over the years is to leave the primer
in the
cocked position (not directly strait) until the engine is fully
started. I
then move it to the locked position.
That is my opinion, your mileage may vary.
Dabear
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Over-priming
Cherry Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> For what it is worth....
>
> All M-14's that I deal with have the intake drain kit installed.
> Typically I prime the engine with that drain left OPEN. I pull
the prop
> through after priming and at the same time......if I have
over-primed
> the engine, the excess fuel simply runs out the intake drain. I
suppose
> that it is possible that you could fill a cylinder up with fuel
anyway,
> but it's pretty hard to do.. .and it has never happened to me,
and I do
> tend to over-prime. Of course I close it before starting... But
it
> remains an effective way to keep from SERIOUSLY over-priming the
engine.
> I offer it only as a thought, but it does work for me.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Goode
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:36 AM
> To: YAK USA LIST
> Subject: Yak-List: Over-priming
>
> Over-priming
>
> We have just lost a Sukhoi in Europe, after over-priming on
start-up.
>
> We have had several before, leading to scorched engines and
cowlings,
> but, in this case, the aeroplane was totally destroyed.
>
> So be warned, and only prime to the extent that is absolutely
necessary
> to start. Also, if a fire does start, then it is vital to keep
cranking
> the engine over, even if it does not start. This will suck
excess fuel
> and vapour into the engine, and probably put the fire out if it
is
> small.
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Herefordshire
> HR5 3LW
> United Kingdom
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
> www.russianaeros.com
>
>
>
>
>
> nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
========================<
; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_p; generous bsp;
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
================
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Problem |
Usually a coil related problem displays itself within the 1st 20-40
minutes of the flight by giving you the sensation the engine completely
shuts down for a "heartbeat" and they comes back to life again. It is
caused by heat. Tests in a heat chamber with the mag under full
operation has proven that a suspect coil will break down when the
temperature typically gets above 60 degrees C. A bad coil would not
typically give the symptom of a reduction in power, but a complete
engine shut down for a "heartbeat". When a coil stops functioning, the
first reaction is the engine just died. Then a few milliseconds later,
it comes back to life.
Be sure to check all the fuel screens including the one in the back side
of the carburetor (item #56, page 149 in the engine manual). If the
fuel hoses have been replaced recently, check them to make sure there is
no "flapper" inside the hose. Sometimes a "flapper" (small rubber piece
which protrudes into the inside of the hose when the fuel is flowing)
will restrict the fuel flow. It may lay flat when the hose is open)
inside the hose can cause fuel flow restrictions and thus a reduction in
power. Should this reduction in power occur again, assuming you have
enough altitude to troubleshoot, try reducing the throttle slightly and
then advancing it slowly to see if the power comes back. If it does, I
would suspect a fuel or carburetor related problem.
Of course, also do the mag check. I realize that is a tough decision to
make (to do a mag check) when the engine seems to have lost power. But
do try to do it. If it runs smooth on both, 1 and 2 with only an RPM
drop when on 1 or 2, then I would not suspect an ignition problem.
Lastly, be sure to check the carburetor input for any possible
restriction. Carefully check the input screen/filter to see if
something has come loose or broken away and possibly restricting the air
flow into the carburetor.
Good luck with this.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Von Ruden
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:17 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Engine Problem
Actually, I didn=92t have time to do a lot except put a plan together
to get it down as fast and safe as possible. When the power came back
up, I took the opportunity to change my original plan and land at the
airport. Something like this gives you the opportunity to do a little
thinking as to the cause. I originally thought it was fuel related, but
have changed my mind after cleaning the screen. Everything was very
clean. I=92m starting to think more ignition.
Thanks
Dennis
Dennis Von Ruden
General Equipment Company
507.451.5510 (P)
507.451.5511 (F)
dvonruden@generalequip.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: William Halverson [mailto:william@netpros.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:41 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine Problem
Hmmm ... did it sound/feel different than going to one mag while in
the air?
At 08:45 PM 9/17/2009, ronald wasson wrote:
Mag coil going bad. Comes and goes. Scared me silly till I found it.
One mag misfiring can affect the motor big time. Friend chased this
problem on his 52 for years. He helped me find mine and switch Mags.
Sounded like the motor quit it was so bad. Mag fixed it.
On Sep 17, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Dennis Von Ruden wrote:
I took off this evening in my stock CJ and experience a significant
reduction in engine power as I was turning crosswind. I didn=92t have
time to look at all the gauges, but my power did come back to full.
Don=92t know if cranking on the wobble pump had any effect. My gear was
up and I was concentrating on my airspeed and altitude. I realized that
rather than land normally, I could land =93downwind=94 on a zero wind
evening (5500 foot runway). No other problems.
The engine acted normal while taxiing back to the hangar and during
shutdown procedures.
1) Full power came back in flight.
2) Had approximately 24 gallons of fuel. (15 in starboard, 9 in
port)
3) Normal run up.
4) Fuel was ON.
5) Primer was locked.
6) Fuel pressure on take-off was in the high green (which has been
normal over my 30 hours in this aircraft) on the take-off roll.
7) I have the JPI 700 Analyzer installed and everything looked
normal on the take-off roll.
8) Drained fuel from the sump before flight and it was clean.
9) Remote chance for icing today in Minnesota=8579=B0F and low
humidity. The needle was not even close to the yellow on the gauge.
10) Did notice however=85that the engine ran a bit rougher between
1200 and1600 RPM during the run up.
Back in the hangar, I drained the fuel screen on the firewall and
found nothing. The aircraft was going in for a condition inspection next
week. Nothing out of the ordinary. The engine has 35 hours since the
first Chinese overhaul and has been running very well since completing
the restoration. Any ideas to discuss with my mechanic tomorrow?
Don=92t want to do this everyday.
<image002.gif>Dennis Von Ruden
General Equipment Company
507.451.5510 (P)
507.451.5511 (F)
dvonruden@generalequip.com
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Over-priming |
Dennis, What was it like working on the first Ford assembly line? :-) JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:29:41 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Ahhh.=C2- That's what I thought.=C2- Just like we used to start a carbu
reted engine in our cars when we were younger.=C2-
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Sorry I missed that.=C2- yes, throttle open about 3/4 of on inch.
Dabear
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Do you have the throttle completely closed when you hit the start button th
e first time?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
It is interesting how much difference their is with starting techniques for
the M14P (and the 285).=C2- I don't recommend all the getting up and down
between the cockpit (priming, pulling through, etc)
I've put 700 hours on the M14P between my yak-52 and the CJ.=C2- I've alw
ays
started it the same and it "almost always" starts on the 2nd or 3rd blade
unless there is an issue (nitrogen only in the system, mags off in the back
,
etc).=C2- I believe if the air distribution system and spark system is co
rrect
on the M14P, it will start just fine by
1.=C2- Pulling through (checking for H-lock)
2.=C2- Closing the intake drain
3.=C2- Getting in the cockpit
4.=C2- Fuel pressure (wobble pump)
5.=C2- Prime 3 times (with fuel; it make take a shot or two for the prime
r to
fill with fuel); plus 1 shot of prime for every 10degC below 50 of Oil temp
)
6.=C2- Hit the starter, and turn the mags on after she starts.
The only thing I've changed over the years is to leave the primer in the
cocked position (not directly strait) until the engine is fully started.=C2
- I
then move it to the locked position.
That is my opinion, your mileage may vary.
Dabear
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
< mark.bitterlich@navy.mil >
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Over-priming
> MALS-14 64E" < mark.bitterlich@navy.mil >
>
>
> For what it is worth....
>
> All M-14's that I deal with have the intake drain kit installed.
> Typically I prime the engine with that drain left OPEN.=C2- I pull the
prop
> through after priming and at the same time......if I have over-primed
> the engine, the excess fuel simply runs out the intake drain.=C2- I sup
pose
> that it is possible that you could fill a cylinder up with fuel anyway,
> but it's pretty hard to do.. .and it has never happened to me, and I do
> tend to over-prime.=C2- Of course I close it before starting... But it
> remains an effective way to keep from SERIOUSLY over-priming the engine.
> I offer it only as a thought, but it does work for me.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:36 AM
> To: YAK USA LIST
> Subject: Yak-List: Over-priming
>
> Over-priming
>
> We have just lost a Sukhoi in Europe, after over-priming on start-up.
>
> We have had several before, leading to scorched engines and cowlings,
> but, in this case, the aeroplane was totally destroyed.
>
> So be warned, and only prime to the extent that is absolutely necessary
> to start.=C2- Also, if a fire does start, then it is vital to keep cran
king
> the engine over, even if it does not start.=C2-=C2- This will suck ex
cess fuel
> and vapour into the engine, and probably put the fire out if it is
> small.
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Herefordshire
> HR5 3LW
> United Kingdom
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
> www.russianaeros.com
>
>
>
>
>
> nbsp;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Navigator Photoshare, and href="htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics====
====================<;=C2-=C2-
=C2- via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matro
nics.com
_p;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- generous bsp;=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- href="http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n">http://www.matronics.com/c===============
==
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref
="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http:/
/www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Ya
k-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com hre
=========
==
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Over-priming |
There is a difference in the Yak and CJ primers. Can someone offer
additional discussion on priming an M-14 installed on the CJ? I
believe the Yak primer is also the wobble pump which is the difference
in Cylinder and Line which you mention. Is this correct?
Thanks;
tc
On Sep 18, 2009, at 9:19 AM, Richard Goode wrote:
> There seem to be a lot of methods for priming - by definition, they
> cannot all be correct. It does help to understand how the system
> works:
>
> There are two positions on the priming pump:
>
> Cylinder, and line (sometimes also written as system).
> Excessive priming into the cylinder will over-prime, and that can
> have serious effects!
> Priming into line / system is simply priming the carburettor and
> building up fuel pressure. You can do this all day, and excess
> fuel simply returns back from the carburettor.
> The Russian manuals are misleading in that they are all geared to
> having an external engineer to turn the propeller. Of course this
> is fine if you have such a person, but most of us do not, and it
> really is most inconvenient to keep hoping in and out of the
> cockpit, and quite simply, it is not necessary.
> So the correct procedure is:
>
> Turn the prop at least 10 complete revolutions to avoid hydraulic-
> lock.
> In the aeroplane, select line/system, and pump a good number of
> times. I say a number of times, simply because in hot weather etc
> you can get air in the system, and given that it does not matter if
> you over-prime on line/system, you want to make sure that each pump
> is totally fuel and not air before priming onto cylinder.
> Prime onto cylinder - between 3 and 5 primes is all you need. More
> than 5 and you are almost certainly over- priming.
> Check that you still have good fuel pressure from the priming to
> line/system; if not, a couple more pumps on the line/system to build
> it up.
> Set throttle.
> Start with magnetos off, and then on when it fires.
> Having left the primer out, but on the cylinder side, as soon as if
> fires give it one pump - possibly more in cold weather, but again no
> more than that.
> Keep the engine running on the throttle.
> Lock primer.
> Of course if you have someone outside to turn the prop through 2/3
> revolutions while the cylinders are being primed, this is helpful,
> but not necessary.
>
> IF however air is low, then it is worth while sucking in while
> priming, or if by your self (having checked everything is off)
> having primed on cylinder then do the priming.
>
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Herefordshire
> HR5 3LW
> United Kingdom
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
> www.russianaeros.com
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: New Yak 55 Gills for sale |
Have a new set of Yak 55 gill shutters complete with struts available.? Last one.
? Contact us of list please.
Vector Warbirds USA
www.vectorwarbirds.com
email: vectorwarbirds@aol.com
Message 11
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To Clarify:
My earlier posting refered ONLY to Yaks - I have no experience of CJ's.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
Message 12
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Hi,
Haven=92t read all the topics but what I can tell I just replaced both
magneto
coils in a Yak 52 that had problems in flight after 20-30 min. It
started to
misfire an run like shit!!!! New magneto coils and engine runs very
nice. So
contact Sarunas at Termikas and he will send you new magneto coils its
very
easy to replace them if you have some hand skils working on aircraft
engines.
Best regards
Havard Dale
YakNorway technican.
_____
Fra: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] P=E5 vegne av William
Halverson
Sendt: 18. september 2009 16:13
Til: yak-list@matronics.com
Emne: RE: Yak-List: Engine Problem
Understood. The reason I ask is I occasionally run on one mag at
altitude
so see if there is any roughness I don't sense on my ground run up ...
I
thought perhaps what you experienced might be similar to what I do on
one
mag.
At 06:17 AM 9/18/2009, Dennis Von Ruden wrote:
Actually, I didn=92t have time to do a lot except put a plan together to
get
it down as fast and safe as possible. When the power came back up, I
took
the opportunity to change my original plan and land at the airport.
Something like this gives you the opportunity to do a little thinking as
to
the cause. I originally thought it was fuel related, but have changed my
mind after cleaning the screen. Everything was very clean. I=92m
starting to
think more ignition.
Thanks
Dennis
[]Dennis Von Ruden
General Equipment Company
507.451.5510 (P)
507.451.5511 (F)
dvonruden@generalequip.com
_____
From: William Halverson [ <mailto:william@netpros.net>
mailto:william@netpros.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine Problem
Hmmm ... did it sound/feel different than going to one mag while in
the
air?
At 08:45 PM 9/17/2009, ronald wasson wrote:
Mag coil going bad. Comes and goes. Scared me silly till I found it.
One
mag misfiring can affect the motor big time. Friend chased this problem
on
his 52 for years. He helped me find mine and switch Mags. Sounded like
the
motor quit it was so bad. Mag fixed it.
On Sep 17, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Dennis Von Ruden wrote:
I took off this evening in my stock CJ and experience a significant
reduction in engine power as I was turning crosswind. I didn=92t have
time to
look at all the gauges, but my power did come back to full. Don=92t know
if
cranking on the wobble pump had any effect. My gear was up and I was
concentrating on my airspeed and altitude. I realized that rather than
land
normally, I could land =93downwind=94 on a zero wind evening (5500 foot
runway).
No other problems.
The engine acted normal while taxiing back to the hangar and during
shutdown
procedures.
1) Full power came back in flight.
2) Had approximately 24 gallons of fuel. (15 in starboard, 9 in
port)
3) Normal run up.
4) Fuel was ON.
5) Primer was locked.
6) Fuel pressure on take-off was in the high green (which has been
normal over my 30 hours in this aircraft) on the take-off roll.
7) I have the JPI 700 Analyzer installed and everything looked
normal on
the take-off roll.
8) Drained fuel from the sump before flight and it was clean.
9) Remote chance for icing today in Minnesota=8579=B0F and low
humidity. The
needle was not even close to the yellow on the gauge.
10) Did notice however=85that the engine ran a bit rougher between 1200
and1600 RPM during the run up.
Back in the hangar, I drained the fuel screen on the firewall and found
nothing. The aircraft was going in for a condition inspection next week.
Nothing out of the ordinary. The engine has 35 hours since the first
Chinese
overhaul and has been running very well since completing the
restoration.
Any ideas to discuss with my mechanic tomorrow?
Don=92t want to do this everyday.
<image002.gif>Dennis Von Ruden
General Equipment Company
507.451.5510 (P)
507.451.5511 (F)
dvonruden@generalequip.com
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<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Over-priming |
That's exactly how I start my 52 and it works every time resulting in
no drama, and much less wear on the engine than other methods since
the engine starts and runs at smooth idle rather than bursting into
life at high rpm.
Nigel Willson
On 18 Sep 2009, at 15:19, "Richard Goode" <richard.goode@russianaeros.com
> wrote:
> There seem to be a lot of methods for priming - by definition, they
> cannot all be correct. It does help to understand how the system
> works:
>
> There are two positions on the priming pump:
>
> Cylinder, and line (sometimes also written as system).
> Excessive priming into the cylinder will over-prime, and that can
> have serious effects!
> Priming into line / system is simply priming the carburettor and
> building up fuel pressure. You can do this all day, and excess
> fuel simply returns back from the carburettor.
> The Russian manuals are misleading in that they are all geared to
> having an external engineer to turn the propeller. Of course this
> is fine if you have such a person, but most of us do not, and it
> really is most inconvenient to keep hoping in and out of the
> cockpit, and quite simply, it is not necessary.
> So the correct procedure is:
>
> Turn the prop at least 10 complete revolutions to avoid hydraulic-
> lock.
> In the aeroplane, select line/system, and pump a good number of
> times. I say a number of times, simply because in hot weather etc
> you can get air in the system, and given that it does not matter if
> you over-prime on line/system, you want to make sure that each pump
> is totally fuel and not air before priming onto cylinder.
> Prime onto cylinder - between 3 and 5 primes is all you need. More
> than 5 and you are almost certainly over- priming.
> Check that you still have good fuel pressure from the priming to
> line/system; if not, a couple more pumps on the line/system to build
> it up.
> Set throttle.
> Start with magnetos off, and then on when it fires.
> Having left the primer out, but on the cylinder side, as soon as if
> fires give it one pump - possibly more in cold weather, but again no
> more than that.
> Keep the engine running on the throttle.
> Lock primer.
> Of course if you have someone outside to turn the prop through 2/3
> revolutions while the cylinders are being primed, this is helpful,
> but not necessary.
>
> IF however air is low, then it is worth while sucking in while
> priming, or if by your self (having checked everything is off)
> having primed on cylinder then do the priming.
>
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Herefordshire
> HR5 3LW
> United Kingdom
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
> www.russianaeros.com
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Over-priming |
Hmmm ... well there goes my excuse for getting excercise, hopping up onto the
wing twice before I actually climb on board!
I'll try this approach tomorrow and report how it goes ...
+-----Original Message-----
+From: Richard Goode [mailto:richard.goode@russianaeros.com]
+Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 07:19 AM
+To: 'YAK USA LIST'
+Subject: Yak-List: Over-priming
+
+There seem to be a lot of methods for priming - by definition, they cannot all
be correct. It does help to understand how the system works:
+
+There are two positions on the priming pump:
+
+ a.. Cylinder, and line (sometimes also written as system).
+ b.. Excessive priming into the cylinder will over-prime, and that can have serious
effects!
+ c.. Priming into line / system is simply priming the carburettor and building
up fuel pressure. You can do this all day, and excess fuel simply returns
back from the carburettor.
+ d.. The Russian manuals are misleading in that they are all geared to having
an external engineer to turn the propeller. Of course this is fine if you have
such a person, but most of us do not, and it really is most inconvenient to
keep hoping in and out of the cockpit, and quite simply, it is not necessary.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Over-priming |
Yes, that is correct Terry. The Yak uses the primer pump for both
functions: pressurize the fuel system by rotating the primer pump to the
left and pumping until adequate fuel pressure can be seen on the fuel
pressure gauge. Turning the primer pump to the right and pumping primes
the engine.
On the CJ, the wobble pump performs the same function as turning the
Yak's primer pump to the left and pumping - pressurizing the fuel
system. The CJ's primer pump on the right console is identical to the
Yak primer pump turned to the right. On the CJ, this primer pump can be
turned to the left or right to prime the engine. Whereas on the Yak it
must be turned to the right to prime the engine.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Calloway
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
There is a difference in the Yak and CJ primers. Can someone offer
additional discussion on priming an M-14 installed on the CJ? I believe
the Yak primer is also the wobble pump which is the difference in
Cylinder and Line which you mention. Is this correct?
Thanks;
tc
On Sep 18, 2009, at 9:19 AM, Richard Goode wrote:
There seem to be a lot of methods for priming - by definition, they
cannot all be correct. It does help to understand how the system
works:
There are two positions on the priming pump:
a.. Cylinder, and line (sometimes also written as system).
b.. Excessive priming into the cylinder will over-prime, and that
can have serious effects!
c.. Priming into line / system is simply priming the carburettor
and building up fuel pressure. You can do this all day, and excess
fuel simply returns back from the carburettor.
d.. The Russian manuals are misleading in that they are all geared
to having an external engineer to turn the propeller. Of course this
is fine if you have such a person, but most of us do not, and it really
is most inconvenient to keep hoping in and out of the cockpit, and quite
simply, it is not necessary.
So the correct procedure is:
a.. Turn the prop at least 10 complete revolutions to avoid
hydraulic-lock.
b.. In the aeroplane, select line/system, and pump a good number
of times. I say a number of times, simply because in hot weather etc
you can get air in the system, and given that it does not matter if you
over-prime on line/system, you want to make sure that each pump is
totally fuel and not air before priming onto cylinder.
c.. Prime onto cylinder - between 3 and 5 primes is all you need.
More than 5 and you are almost certainly over- priming.
d.. Check that you still have good fuel pressure from the priming
to line/system; if not, a couple more pumps on the line/system to build
it up.
e.. Set throttle.
f.. Start with magnetos off, and then on when it fires.
g.. Having left the primer out, but on the cylinder side, as soon
as if fires give it one pump - possibly more in cold weather, but again
no more than that.
h.. Keep the engine running on the throttle.
i.. Lock primer.
Of course if you have someone outside to turn the prop through 2/3
revolutions while the cylinders are being primed, this is helpful, but
not necessary.
IF however air is low, then it is worth while sucking in while
priming, or if by your self (having checked everything is off) having
primed on cylinder then do the priming.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
www.russianaeros.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Over-priming |
Pretty tough. 12 hour days and only $14 a week salary. :-)
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: jblake207@COMCAST.NET
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Dennis, What was it like working on the first Ford assembly line? :-)
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:29:41 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
Central
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Ahhh. That's what I thought. Just like we used to start a carbureted
engine in our cars when we were younger.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Sorry I missed that. yes, throttle open about 3/4 of on inch.
Dabear
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Dennis Savarese
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
Do you have the throttle completely closed when you hit the start
button the first time?
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Over-priming
It is interesting how much difference their is with starting
techniques for
the M14P (and the 285). I don't recommend all the getting up
and down
between the cockpit (priming, pulling through, etc)
I've put 700 hours on the M14P between my yak-52 and the CJ.
I've always
started it the same and it "almost always" starts on the 2nd or
3rd blade
unless there is an issue (nitrogen only in the system, mags off
in the back,
etc). I believe if the air distribution system and spark system
is correct
on the M14P, it will start just fine by
1. Pulling through (checking for H-lock)
2. Closing the intake drain
3. Getting in the cockpit
4. Fuel pressure (wobble pump)
5. Prime 3 times (with fuel; it make take a shot or two for the
primer to
fill with fuel); plus 1 shot of prime for every 10degC below 50
of Oil temp)
6. Hit the starter, and turn the mags on after she starts.
The only thing I've changed over the years is to leave the
primer in the
cocked position (not directly strait) until the engine is fully
started. I
then move it to the locked position.
That is my opinion, your mileage may vary.
Dabear
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Over-priming
Cherry Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> For what it is worth....
>
> All M-14's that I deal with have the intake drain kit
installed.
> Typically I prime the engine with that drain left OPEN. I
pull the prop
> through after priming and at the same time......if I have
over-primed
> the engine, the excess fuel simply runs out the intake drain.
I suppose
> that it is possible that you could fill a cylinder up with
fuel anyway,
> but it's pretty hard to do.. .and it has never happened to me,
and I do
> tend to over-prime. Of course I close it before starting...
But it
> remains an effective way to keep from SERIOUSLY over-priming
the engine.
> I offer it only as a thought, but it does work for me.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Goode
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:36 AM
> To: YAK USA LIST
> Subject: Yak-List: Over-priming
>
> Over-priming
>
> We have just lost a Sukhoi in Europe, after over-priming on
start-up.
>
> We have had several before, leading to scorched engines and
cowlings,
> but, in this case, the aeroplane was totally destroyed.
>
> So be warned, and only prime to the extent that is absolutely
necessary
> to start. Also, if a fire does start, then it is vital to
keep cranking
> the engine over, even if it does not start. This will suck
excess fuel
> and vapour into the engine, and probably put the fire out if
it is
> small.
>
> Richard Goode Aerobatics
> Rhodds Farm
> Lyonshall
> Herefordshire
> HR5 3LW
> United Kingdom
>
> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340 120
> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340 129
> www.russianaeros.com
>
>
>
>
>
> nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
========================<
; via the Web
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| Subject: | Yak 52/55/18T Shutters & Ring |
GDay
Have a 52 that requires a complete gill set. Anyone in Australia have a set
that they would part with? Looking for a spinner=2C and gill control cable
also..
Cheers
Bill
From: wise@txc.net.au
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak 52/55/18T Shutters & Ring
G'Day All=2C
We operate a 18T Adelaide South Australia.
Same story=2C the rings and shutters where not so nice. Considering that we
do not have the cold Russian Temps we removed them=2C as did our LAME with
his 18.
Takes a little bit longer to warm up in the winter before flying=2C other t
han that=2C no problems. Have on occasion closed the oil cooler to warm-up
faster=2C not a great deal of dif.
Consider that most other radial engines do not have shutters. i.e.. just ab
out all the aircraft with P&W.
So I think that if you are operating in really cold temps=2C I would run sh
utters.
Cheers=2C
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: Byron Fox
Sent: Thursday=2C September 17=2C 2009 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak 52/55/18T Shutters & Ring
I have considered running without shutters=2C Mark. Dennis Savarese made th
e same suggestion based on experience he's had. I've asked LA-based Ron Lee
how often he flies with his shutters closed on his M14P converted CJ. "Oft
en=2C" was the response.
From June - Sept. in the San Francisco Bay Area =2C we're flying in +/- 80
degree weather. Thereafter=2C it's 50s and 60s=2C and rarely in the low 40
s. So=2C I'm pondering doing without.
I wonder if anyone's considered some sort of bolt on baffling for cold weat
her=2C like the folks who partial cover their oil cooler intakes during the
winter.
...Blitz
On Wed=2C Sep 16=2C 2009 at 12:35 PM=2C Bitterlich=2C Mark G CIV Det Cherry
Point=2C MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
=2C MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Ever think of just running without them?
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. Hope this does not open a bag of worms=2C but it is a do-able thing
unless you live in extremely cold weather.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Byron Fox
Sent: Tuesday=2C September 15=2C 2009 11:36 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52/55/18T Shutters & Ring
For our M14P conversion=2C we're hunting for Yak 52=2C55 or 18T shutters an
d
ring. Please contact me off-line. Thanks=2C Blitz
Sent from my iPhone
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le=2C List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Byron M. Fox
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley=2C CA 94941
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?Yak-List
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