Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (bill wade)
2. 09:39 AM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Dale)
3. 10:02 AM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (barryhancock)
4. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Yak Pilot)
5. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Yak Pilot)
6. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Eric Wobschall)
7. 02:36 PM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Dale)
8. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (T A LEWIS)
9. 03:20 PM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Dale)
10. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Yak Pilot)
11. 03:45 PM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Yak Pilot)
12. 03:50 PM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (A. Dennis Savarese)
13. 04:47 PM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Dale)
14. 05:03 PM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Dale)
15. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Eric Wobschall)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
About 8 years ago there was a Yak 52 coming east from California the aircra
ft was new to the pilot owner and he overestimated his fuel reserve and abo
ut 5 miles from his destination airport the engine lost power he used the h
and pump (primer)-to make enough power to get the aircraft to the thresho
ld the story was in the Yak club flier. So the hand pump (primer) must pull
fuel from a very low point. Two questions for Dennis will an electric pump
push fuel through the mechanical pump (not turning) or could you select pi
pe on the primer and turn it on?=0ABill Wade=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________
________________=0AFrom: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:38:05 PM=0A
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump=0A=0A=0ACapt. Don has a Yak 52
.- The primer pump on the 52 is also used to pressurize the system side,
much like the big wobble pump handle on the CJ.- I can guarantee you the
52 requires significantly more effort-to pump enough fuel-to keep the e
ngine running if the fuel pump fails.=0ADennis=0A----- Original Message ---
-- =0A>From: T A LEWIS =0A>To: yak-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, Dec
ember 28, 2009 9:54 PM=0A>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump=0A>
Kieth,=0A>I agree with your take on that response concerning the fuel pump
. When the main fuel pumps fails , the standby manual pump is on thr wrong
side of the cockpit=0A>on a CJ. This requires a lot of cross cockpit hand m
ovement at a critical time in the flight.=0A>An electrical backup is a grea
t fix for this problem.=0A>Terry Lewis=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>----- Original Messag
e ----=0A>From: keithmckinley <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>=0A>To: yak-list@
matronics.com=0A>Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 10:00:12 PM=0A>Subject: Yak-L
inley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>=0A>=0A>Hi Don,=0A>=0A>I'm at a loss to
why some people post answers like the first one you received to a perfectly
legitimate question. I too, was looking to put an electric pump in my CJ.
I got some great responses and the best was from Larry Pine who provided me
with a fantatic schematic and cockpit view of his beautiful work. I can as
k Larry if it would be OK to share. Again, it is for a CJ but it might help
you out. Let me know off line.=0A>=0A>Best,=0A>=0A>Keith=0A>=0A>--------
=0A>Keith McKinley=0A>700HS=0A>KFIT=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic onli
ne here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279053#279053
=0A>=0A>=0A>http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ;--
------------------- -Matt Dralle, Lis
t nbsp;------ Navigator Photoshare, and href="http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics========
================<;--- via the Web hre
f="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>_===
================= =0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
I sent Don the information and photo's on my 52TW he can copy.
It uses a electric fuel boost pump as intalled from Russia.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279103#279103
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Gang,
We have developed a kit for the CJ that removes both the wobble pump and primer
plunger. A stand by electric fuel pump serves as both an emergency pump and
the primer. Primer is done via a solenoid on the firewall tied into a three way
switch. Kit includes pump, solenoid, hard lines (both to/from the pump and
from the gascolator to the solenoid), fittings, and picture instructions. Please
contact us off list for pricing and details.
Happy Flying,
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
(909) 606-4444
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279114#279114
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Keith, I'd personally love to see that schematic and installation pictures
myself.- Just FYI, my UTVA-66 (made in Yugoslavia) has many of the same p
arts found in the YAK.- One thing that was "almost" the same was the manu
al priming pump.- It has been replaced with a Weldon J style 8100 series
electric pump http://www.weldonpumps.com/j8100.htm
-
In addition, an electric solenoid valve has been added so that engine primi
ng is done simply by pushing an electric button!- Pretty cool and it work
s perfectly.-
-
The 8100 series has-... quote:- "-Low Pressure Drop Bypass Valve Perm
itting Passage of fuel through an Idle Pump"--- This feature allows i
t to be installed in-line with the main fuel flow going to the engine drive
n mechanical pump.- Putting a pump in this way allows you to turn it on..
.. then push a button to prime, or leave it running as a backup pump to the
one driven by the M-14.- The GSO-480 uses a pressure carb as does the M-
14.- Having fuel pressure present right at the carb allows for much easie
r starts in cold weather.- Fuel pressure is adjustable at the pump.-
-
I have not put this mod in my YAK-50, but I can tell you that this thing wo
rks FLAWLESSLY in the UTVA-66, and I use it ALL the time on the hot GS0-480
engine when it tends to vapor lock on a hot start.-
-
A much easier installation could be done in the YAK models simply by having
a manual selector valve in the cockpit to replace the current manual pump,
allowing selection of fuel pressure either to "system" or to "prime", alon
g with an electric switch to turn on the pump,- I think I might even have
a three position switch for the pump.- "OFF" "ON" and SPRING LOADED OFF"
.- Spring loaded off would allow you to select prime, and then just hit t
he switch a few times "squirting in fuel".- Turning it to "ON" and select
ing SYSTEM, would then allow a backup to the main engine driven pump.-
-
I'm just thinking out-loud here.- There are many ways to do it, but perso
nally I think it's a great idea and worth doing.-
-
-
Good luck,
-
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Mon, 12/28/09, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrot
e:
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
Capt. Don has a Yak 52.- The primer pump on the 52 is also used to pressu
rize the system side, much like the big wobble pump handle on the CJ.- I
can guarantee you the 52 requires significantly more effort-to pump enoug
h fuel-to keep the engine running if the fuel pump fails.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: T A LEWIS
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
Kieth,
I agree with your take on that response concerning the fuel pump . When the
main fuel pumps fails , the standby manual pump is on thr wrong side of th
e cockpit
on a CJ. This requires a lot of cross cockpit hand movement at a critical t
ime in the flight.
An electrical backup is a great fix for this problem.
Terry Lewis
----- Original Message ----
From: keithmckinley <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 10:00:12 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
>
Hi Don,
I'm at a loss to why some people post answers like the first one you receiv
ed to a perfectly legitimate question. I too, was looking to put an electri
c pump in my CJ. I got some great responses and the best was from Larry Pin
e who provided me with a fantatic schematic and cockpit view of his beautif
ul work. I can ask Larry if it would be OK to share. Again, it is for a CJ
but it might help you out. Let me know off line.
Best,
Keith
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279053#279053
http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ;------
--------------- -Matt Dralle, List nbsp;-
----- Navigator Photoshare, and href="http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics===========
=============<;--- via the Web href="http
://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Could you post that info to this list as well?
-
I think it is valuable information.-
-
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net> wrote:
From: Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
I sent Don the information and photo's on my 52TW he can copy.
It uses a electric fuel boost pump as intalled from Russia.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279103#279103
le, List Admin.
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Would like to see that, too...
On Dec 29, 2009, at 12:39 PM, Dale wrote:
>
> I sent Don the information and photo's on my 52TW he can copy.
> It uses a electric fuel boost pump as intalled from Russia.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279103#279103
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Simple- the fuel pump ( $43.00 ) is mounted parallel to the engine driven pump.
Fuel is taken from the gascolator/screen and delivered to the inlet side of
the bubbler from the engine driven pump ( not on a CJ ). The Facet pump has
a internal check valve keeping fuel from going back to the gascolator. Turning
on the pump charges the carb for starting as well. Have fun with the plumbing.
The TW uses hard lines but no reason hose can not be used. Facet # 40164 -
24V Neg. Ground, 4-C PSI Max, 30 GPH, 1/8 x 27 internal pipe ports. This install
does not interfear with the normal flow of fuel. One switch one pump with
2 lines and fittings. Should cost under $150.00 for everything.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279139#279139
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Hi Dale,
What is a bubbler ?
Terry
----- Original Message ----
From: Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net>
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 5:35:15 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
Simple- the fuel pump ( $43.00 ) is mounted parallel to the engine driven pump.
Fuel is taken from the gascolator/screen and delivered to the inlet side of the
bubbler from the engine driven pump ( not on a CJ ). The Facet pump has a internal
check valve keeping fuel from going back to the gascolator. Turning on
the pump charges the carb for starting as well. Have fun with the plumbing. The
TW uses hard lines but no reason hose can not be used. Facet # 40164 - 24V
Neg. Ground, 4-C PSI Max, 30 GPH, 1/8 x 27 internal pipe ports. This install does
not interfear with the normal flow of fuel. One switch one pump with 2 lines
and fittings. Should cost under $150.00 for everything.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279139#279139
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Bubbler removes the vapor from the fuel and returns it back to the system prior
to being sent to the final fuel screen and on to the caburator.
Normally only found on a Yak or a CJ if it's lucky. Located on the right side of
the firewall about the size of a softball. Looks a little like Sputnik.
Yaks have the balls and CJ don't ( normally ).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279142#279142
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
What you suggest-makes sense.- The Facet pump is a VERY good pump.-Ho
wever I am curious.-
This is a "six of one, half a dozen of another" kind of question, but which
method would be better do you think?-
-
Putting a pump in parallel as you describe, or putting a pump in series as
I mentioned?-
-
If a pump in series failed for some reason and parts clogged it up, you wou
ld of course lose engine fuel and that would be that!.
-
If the one way check valve in the Facet pump failed and went "bi-directiona
l" in a parallel arrangement, the engine pump would cavitate and the same t
hing would happen.- No engine fuel.-
-
Which way is better?-
-
On my UTVA it is in series.- I am NOT saying "that is a better way".-
- I am curious what others think and why.-
-
Mark Bitterlich
-
-
-
--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net> wrote:
From: Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
Simple- the fuel pump ( $43.00 ) is mounted parallel- to the engine drive
n pump.- Fuel is taken from the gascolator/screen and delivered to the in
let side of the bubbler from the engine driven pump ( not on a CJ ).- The
Facet pump has a internal check valve keeping fuel from going back to the
gascolator. Turning on the pump charges the carb for starting as well. Have
fun with the plumbing.- The TW uses hard lines but no reason hose can no
t be used. Facet # 40164 - 24V Neg. Ground, 4-C PSI Max, 30 GPH, 1/8 x 27 i
nternal pipe ports.- This install does not interfear with the normal flow
of fuel. One switch one pump with 2 lines and fittings.- Should cost und
er $150.00 for everything.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279139#279139
le, List Admin.
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
-
Question: What's wrong with the manual backup pump?-
Answer:- There isn't one.-
-
There is a manual priming pump.- This same manual pump can also be used t
o put some initial head pressure to the engine driven pump (system).-
-
However, using this pump to keep the engine going if the engine driven mech
anical pump fails (a geared pump) is highly unlikely.- Yes, it could be u
sed to stretch a glide, etc., etc., but you are going to be one busy bee tr
ying to pull that thing in and out fast enough to keep the engine actually
running.- I think a good way to describe trying to do that would be best
said-as-using the plunger pump to carry the aircraft to the scene of th
e accident.-
-
There are indeed stories of people that have claimed to have actually pulle
d this off, but honestly.... I have my doubts.- That plunger pump is is n
ot a continuous pressure pump and at best you are going to get quick "shots
" of power as you pump the crap out of this thing.-
-
An electric pump would indeed meet the definition of a "backup fuel pump" w
hile also being a very cool tool for priming.- -
-
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Mon, 12/28/09, harley@siriusconinc.com <harley@siriusconinc.com> wro
te:
From: harley@siriusconinc.com <harley@siriusconinc.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
what's wrong with the manual back-up pump?
-
Martin
-
-
----- Original Message -----
From: captaindonhopkin@aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:26 PM
Subject: **SPAM** Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
Hi gang,
I believe this subject was discussed sometime ago, but I can't find the dig
est link for it.- We'd like to add a back up electric fuel pump in my Yak
52.- Does anyone has schematics, drawings, photos or any suggestions the
y'd like to share?- Thanking you all in advance.- Ciao.
Don
Captain Don Hopkin
N6868Y
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Bill,
If one installs an electric primer pump on the Yak 52, it should be in
the primer line which is a 6 mm line coming from the fuel junction just
below the front seat to the primer pump. The procedure would be to turn
the primer pump to the left (system side) then turn on the electric
pump. This will pump fuel through the mechanical pump which would be
more than what you could pump with the hand primer pump.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: bill wade
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
About 8 years ago there was a Yak 52 coming east from California the
aircraft was new to the pilot owner and he overestimated his fuel
reserve and about 5 miles from his destination airport the engine lost
power he used the hand pump (primer) to make enough power to get the
aircraft to the threshold the story was in the Yak club flier. So the
hand pump (primer) must pull fuel from a very low point. Two questions
for Dennis will an electric pump push fuel through the mechanical pump
(not turning) or could you select pipe on the primer and turn it on?
Bill Wade
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:38:05 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
Capt. Don has a Yak 52. The primer pump on the 52 is also used to
pressurize the system side, much like the big wobble pump handle on the
CJ. I can guarantee you the 52 requires significantly more effort to
pump enough fuel to keep the engine running if the fuel pump fails.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: T A LEWIS
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
Kieth,
I agree with your take on that response concerning the fuel pump .
When the main fuel pumps fails , the standby manual pump is on thr wrong
side of the cockpit
on a CJ. This requires a lot of cross cockpit hand movement at a
critical time in the flight.
An electrical backup is a great fix for this problem.
Terry Lewis
----- Original Message ----
From: keithmckinley <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 10:00:12 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
<keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
Hi Don,
I'm at a loss to why some people post answers like the first one you
received to a perfectly legitimate question. I too, was looking to put
an electric pump in my CJ. I got some great responses and the best was
from Larry Pine who provided me with a fantatic schematic and cockpit
view of his beautiful work. I can ask Larry if it would be OK to share.
Again, it is for a CJ but it might help you out. Let me know off line.
Best,
Keith
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279053#279053
http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ;
-Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
========================<
; via the Web
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
www.homebuilthelp.com<->
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
In the event of a total failure the engine driven pump has much larger lines feeding
the bubbler and the would cause the Facet to act like a pressure relief
valve to the extent of the leak or bypass which would need to be a total failure
and them I don't see how all the fuel would bypass. The pump should not cavatate
any more than a fuel pressure relief in a Duke pump or a Weldon with pressure
relief. This is how Aerostar installs it in the Yak.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279155#279155
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
I forgot to add that with the parallel system and the Facet you have enough room
that you can put in 6 check valves downstream of the boost pump if you think
the one in pump might fail for all the money you save buying the Weldon and still
retain you original system without messing with the primary line.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279161#279161
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
I would think the mechanical fuel pump output that is plugged up
(which used to go to the oil dilute) could be used for the Facet
output. Is that true, or wouldn't that work? I assume you'd have to do
some mix and match fittings for the input side. Does anyone if
Aerostar now using American sizes, or some kind of conversion to use
the Facet pump?
Remarks?
On Dec 29, 2009, at 8:03 PM, Dale wrote:
>
> I forgot to add that with the parallel system and the Facet you have
> enough room that you can put in 6 check valves downstream of the
> boost pump if you think the one in pump might fail for all the money
> you save buying the Weldon and still retain you original system
> without messing with the primary line.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279161#279161
>
>
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