Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Yak Pilot)
2. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Yak Pilot)
3. 11:48 AM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Yak Pilot)
4. 11:48 AM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Eric Wobschall)
5. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Walter Lannon)
6. 04:50 PM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Roger Kemp M.D.)
7. 06:12 PM - Re: Back up Fuel Pump (Craig Winkelmann)
8. 06:15 PM - Re: Christmas Greetings and Program Letters (Craig Winkelmann)
9. 06:51 PM - Re: Huosai fuel system in Homebuilt apps. (Dale)
10. 11:05 PM - Official Yak-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
11. 11:12 PM - Official Yak-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
I think we are talking apples and oranges.-
-
No big deal.-
-
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net> wrote:
From: Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
In the event of a total failure the engine driven pump has much larger line
s feeding the bubbler and the would cause the Facet- to act like a pressu
re relief valve to the extent of the leak or bypass which would need to be
a total failure and them I don't see how all the fuel would bypass.- The
pump should not cavatate any more than a fuel pressure relief in a Duke pum
p or a Weldon with pressure relief.- This is how Aerostar installs it in
the Yak.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279155#279155
le, List Admin.
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Dale, let me be clear.-
-
I don't care if a person puts 5 Facet pumps in parallel or 15 in series, wi
th 10 zillion check valves along the way.- I was discussing the pro's and
con's involving design premises.-
-
I never knocked either design idea.-
-
Let me be clear about something else.-- To me flying is not about "savi
ng money".- I don't go out and look for the cheapest possible solution th
at will work.- I-mentioned that the Facet pump was good.- The Weldon
pump is a lot better.- It's a certified aircraft fuel pump, the Facet is
not.- The Weldon has the capability of handling the full fuel flow of an
M-14PF.- The Facet does not.-
-
That said, I would not hesitate to put a Facet pump in as a backup system,
IN PARALLEL (as you have suggested) ok?- Anything is better than nothing,
and the Facet pump with a-parallel design is clearly better than sitting
there pumping away at what is currently there to keep you from crashing.
-
-
I have the Weldon pump installed in series in my UTVA-66-that flows 52 ga
llons per hour at takeoff power (the-Facet can't handle that Dale), and I
like the fact that it is an easy install with less fittings and hoses than
a-parallel design and uses an aircraft certified pump.-
-
I am not trying to say "my way is the better way".- On the same token I d
on't believe the Facet pump with a parallel hose design is "better" either.
- Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.-
-
Have a nice day.
-
Mark-Bitterlich
-
--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net> wrote:
From: Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
I forgot to add that with the parallel system and the Facet you have enough
room that you can put in 6 check valves downstream of the boost pump if yo
u think the one in pump might fail for all the money you save buying the We
ldon and still retain you original system without messing with the primary
line.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279161#279161
le, List Admin.
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| Subject: | Back up Fuel Pump |
The saying: "Busier than a one armed paper hanger" comes to mind Doc.-
-
If an engine has ignition and you feed it fuel, it should run.- How much
horsepower will be developed, how many gallons per hour you can output with
that hand primer pump. what the conditions are at the time, how many peopl
e are in the aircraft, etc., etc., etc., all play a part in a situation lik
e this.- Unhook that primer pump fuel line and let's see how many gallons
per hour YOU can make that thing put out OK?-
-
Doc, I have personal knowledge of an F-4 Phantom that took off from an airc
raft carrier with the wings folded, and was able to-bingo it safely.- I
have personal knowledge of an A-6E that ripped off 7 feet of wing hitting
a tower guy wire in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm and also landed safely
.- In fact I am sure you have various "war stories" that you can tell as
well... all of them true, all of them darn well amazing, and a lot of them
-unlikely to ever be duplicated.-
-
There is no question that the primer plunger pump will make the engine run.
- Sort of.- Maybe.- If you're lucky.- And if you make it back safet
y you can brag about it!-
-
However, an electric pump, in series OR parallel (Facet OR Weldon) would wo
rk a hell of a lot better and would be something I would feel a lot better
betting my life on.-
-
Of course you wear a chute.- I don't.--- :-)-
-
Mark
-
-
--- On Wed, 12/30/09, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
From: Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
Vadim and Mark,
I have personal knowledge of a CFI in the YAK here in the US doing just tha
t to get himself and his student down at an airport north of Dallas, Tx. at
night none the less. This happened in the past couple of years. As I remem
ber it was a fuel pump failure that caused the incident. He flew the plane
while the student in the front seat pumped the primer to keep the engine ru
nning. He said in expected fashion it burped along but was able to hold alt
itude until they could make the airport.
As stated, that is in the Russian manual under emergency procedures for los
s of fuel pressure.
Doc Kemp
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of harley@siriusconinc.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
-
this is from-Vadim (a ten year Yak-52 instructor from the Ukraine)-
-
"It is possible to pressurize the fuel line right before carburetor using p
rimer as plunger pump. In this situation continues pressure will be support
ed by small sphere tank which is located on fire wall if I am not mistaken.
The procedure was clearly described in Russian AFM as emergency procedure.
As Russian AFMs "written by blood" it worth to trust them. Personally I ha
ve never had practical experience with described above procedures but again
all this according to AFM."
-
-
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
-
-
Question: What's wrong with the manual backup pump?-
Answer:- There isn't one.-
-
There is a manual priming pump.- This same manual pump can also be used t
o put some initial head pressure to the engine driven pump (system).-
-
However, using this pump to keep the engine going if the engine driven mech
anical pump fails (a geared pump) is highly unlikely.- Yes, it could be u
sed to stretch a glide, etc., etc., but you are going to be one busy bee tr
ying to pull that thing in and out fast enough to keep the engine actually
running.- I think a good way to describe trying to do that would be best
said-as-using the plunger pump to carry the aircraft to the scene of th
e accident.-
-
There are indeed stories of people that have claimed to have actually pulle
d this off, but honestly.... I have my doubts.- That plunger pump is is n
ot a continuous pressure pump and at best you are going to get quick "shots
" of power as you pump the crap out of this thing.-
-
An electric pump would indeed meet the definition of a "backup fuel pump" w
hile also being a very cool tool for priming.- -
-
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Mon, 12/28/09, harley@siriusconinc.com <harley@siriusconinc.com> wro
te:
From: harley@siriusconinc.com <harley@siriusconinc.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
what's wrong with the manual back-up pump?
-
Martin
-
-
----- Original Message -----
From: captaindonhopkin@aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:26 PM
Subject: **SPAM** Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
-
Hi gang,
I believe this subject was discussed sometime ago, but I can't find the dig
est link for it.- We'd like to add a back up electric fuel pump in my Yak
52.- Does anyone has schematics, drawings, photos or any suggestions the
y'd like to share?- Thanking you all in advance.- Ciao.
Don
-
Captain Don Hopkin
N6868Y - -href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref
="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.h
omebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.comhref="http://www.howtocrimp.com">w
ww.howtocrimp.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.
matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">ht
tp://forums.matronics.com -
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oks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comwww.howtocrimp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/cont
ributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.
com -
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Go get 'em.
On Jan 1, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Yak Pilot wrote:
> I think we are talking apples and oranges.
>
> No big deal.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
> --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> From: Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net>
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 7:46 PM
>
>
> In the event of a total failure the engine driven pump has much
> larger lines feeding the bubbler and the would cause the Facet to
> act like a pressure relief valve to the extent of the leak or bypass
> which would need to be a total failure and them I don't see how all
> the fuel would bypass. The pump should not cavatate any more than a
> fuel pressure relief in a Duke pump or a Weldon with pressure
> relief. This is how Aerostar installs it in the Yak.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279155#27915= * The
> Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.comonics.com/contribution"
> target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contributi; -
> Matt Dralle, List Adminnbsp; -->
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Happy New Year to all
Hi Mark;
Interesting subject: I am totally in agreement with your comments and am currently
considering the options for that installation in my CJ project.
The CJ uses a wobble type emerg. pump which, unlike the Yak installation, is quite
adequate for the purpose provided it is in good condition. However, as noted
by a previous post, it's only control handle is located such that the pump
is virtually useless.
Unlike the Harvard/T6, which has a wobble pump of identical capacity wirh control
from the LH side in BOTH cockpits, the CJ is RH and front only. Completely
unacceptable in my opinion particularly in the event of fuel pump failure after
take-off. Not a hope!
I have modified the Harvard/T6 system utilizing the AN standard aux. fuel pump
(which consists of a standard vane type (AN 4100 series) engine driven pump but
driven by a special electric motor). This of course is a certificated aircraft
and the installation must be approved.
In this case the aux. pump is installed in series with the engine driven pump since
these pumps have an internal bypass capacity capable of handling the maximum
flow. This takes care of the after take-off scenario even though the wobble
pump may save your ass in the Harvard. It sure as hell won't in the CJ.
The wobble pump is left intact since it is a totally parallel system and is still
available in the very unlikely event of both vane pumps failing.
For the CJ I am considering replacement of the wobble pump. This is a parallel
installation but only to the engine driven pump (which, therefore, must have
an internal bypass) rather than directly to the carburettor. In this instance
the aux. pump will not require an internal bypass. At this stage I still have
not determined which pump to use. The AN type described above is rather large
and heavy so I need something smaller but it difinetely will not be a Facet
type. It will be a type certified vane pump possibly Weldon or Parker Airborne.
Just received your email while writing this. That's good, I thought it may not
arrive until next week.
Cheers;
Walt
From: Yak Pilot
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
Dale, let me be clear.
I don't care if a person puts 5 Facet pumps in parallel or 15 in series,
with 10 zillion check valves along the way. I was discussing the pro's and
con's involving design premises.
I never knocked either design idea.
Let me be clear about something else. To me flying is not about "saving
money". I don't go out and look for the cheapest possible solution that will
work. I mentioned that the Facet pump was good. The Weldon pump is a lot
better. It's a certified aircraft fuel pump, the Facet is not. The Weldon has
the capability of handling the full fuel flow of an M-14PF. The Facet does
not.
That said, I would not hesitate to put a Facet pump in as a backup system,
IN PARALLEL (as you have suggested) ok? Anything is better than nothing,
and the Facet pump with a parallel design is clearly better than sitting there
pumping away at what is currently there to keep you from crashing.
I have the Weldon pump installed in series in my UTVA-66 that flows 52
gallons per hour at takeoff power (the Facet can't handle that Dale), and I like
the fact that it is an easy install with less fittings and hoses than a parallel
design and uses an aircraft certified pump.
I am not trying to say "my way is the better way". On the same token I
don't believe the Facet pump with a parallel hose design is "better" either.
Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Have a nice day.
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net> wrote:
From: Dale <hdinamic@qwest.net>
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Back up Fuel Pump
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 8:03 PM
I forgot to add that with the parallel system and the Facet you have
enough room that you can put in 6 check valves downstream of the boost pump if
you think the one in pump might fail for all the money you save buying the Weldon
and still retain you original system without messing with the primary line.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279161#279161
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Li -->
Message 6
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| Subject: | Back up Fuel Pump |
Happy New Year Mark,
No argument from me. Yep, I have already made my decision. If I have
enough
altitude for a safe chute I=92m stepping over the side. It is a personal
decision that I have made before I leave the ground. Yes I will try to
save
the plane but not to the point of pushing myself into a square corner
without the option of the silk let down. No we do not have zero zero
seats
either, I know.
I agree to keep the engine running you are busier than a one armed paper
hanger in blizzard. Had to change my fuel pump out due to a leak in the
seal
between the oil pump and the fuel pump. Anyway after changing out the
pump
had no fuel pressure after starting the 52. It took a lot of stroking of
the
plunger on the cylinder side to keep the engine running until I figure
out
that I had zero system pressure. That was on the ground, I could not
imagine
what it would take in the air. Hope it does not happen and yes I have
thought of installing a Weldon pump along with the smoke tank along with
the
second Dynon along with the fuel bladders in the 52 along with replacing
the
canopy glass on the 50 along with the putting the spring and bushings
mod in
the tail wheel shock absorber on the 50, along with installing the CJ
air
system filter from Doug Sapp on the 50 along with=85ect=85ect=85 The
problem is
there are so many things that I want to do but time is an issue.
If anyone finds the 3 =BD tall Russian with 12 inch fingers, please send
me
his contact numbers. I have some projects for him like changing out the
bungie cord on the front canopy pulley cable on the 52. The Russians
have to
have a supply of those little buggers stashed away somewhere.
Yep got a few of those I have personal knowledge of stories also. A
Viper
coming home from Camden Ridge MOA with 2 feet of the right wing missing
after an encounter with a guy wire on a radio tower. To name a few.
The electric fuel pump is not a bad idea but since I=92ve not taken the
time
to figure out what the fuel flow that is needed to make the electric
pump
work for the M-14 that has been a project left untouched.
Happy New Year. So many projects with so little time.
ChK 6
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 1:17 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
The saying: "Busier than a one armed paper hanger" comes to mind Doc.
If an engine has ignition and you feed it fuel, it should run. How much
horsepower will be developed, how many gallons per hour you can output
with
that hand primer pump. what the conditions are at the time, how many
people
are in the aircraft, etc., etc., etc., all play a part in a situation
like
this. Unhook that primer pump fuel line and let's see how many gallons
per
hour YOU can make that thing put out OK?
Doc, I have personal knowledge of an F-4 Phantom that took off from an
aircraft carrier with the wings folded, and was able to bingo it safely.
I
have personal knowledge of an A-6E that ripped off 7 feet of wing
hitting a
tower guy wire in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm and also landed
safely.
In fact I am sure you have various "war stories" that you can tell as
well... all of them true, all of them darn well amazing, and a lot of
them
unlikely to ever be duplicated.
There is no question that the primer plunger pump will make the engine
run.
Sort of. Maybe. If you're lucky. And if you make it back safety you
can
brag about it!
However, an electric pump, in series OR parallel (Facet OR Weldon) would
work a hell of a lot better and would be something I would feel a lot
better
betting my life on.
Of course you wear a chute. I don't. :-)
Mark
--- On Wed, 12/30/09, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
From: Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
Vadim and Mark,
I have personal knowledge of a CFI in the YAK here in the US doing just
that
to get himself and his student down at an airport north of Dallas, Tx.
at
night none the less. This happened in the past couple of years. As I
remember it was a fuel pump failure that caused the incident. He flew
the
plane while the student in the front seat pumped the primer to keep the
engine running. He said in expected fashion it burped along but was able
to
hold altitude until they could make the airport.
As stated, that is in the Russian manual under emergency procedures for
loss
of fuel pressure.
Doc Kemp
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
harley@siriusconinc.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
this is from Vadim (a ten year Yak-52 instructor from the Ukraine)
"It is possible to pressurize the fuel line right before carburetor
using
primer as plunger pump. In this situation continues pressure will be
supported by small sphere tank which is located on fire wall if I am not
mistaken. The procedure was clearly described in Russian AFM as
emergency
procedure. As Russian AFMs "written by blood" it worth to trust them.
Personally I have never had practical experience with described above
procedures but again all this according to AFM."
----- Original Message -----
From: <http://us.mc507.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=yakplt@yahoo.com>
Yak
Pilot
<http://us.mc507.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=yak-list@matronics.com>
yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
Question: What's wrong with the manual backup pump?
Answer: There isn't one.
There is a manual priming pump. This same manual pump can also be used
to
put some initial head pressure to the engine driven pump (system).
However, using this pump to keep the engine going if the engine driven
mechanical pump fails (a geared pump) is highly unlikely. Yes, it could
be
used to stretch a glide, etc., etc., but you are going to be one busy
bee
trying to pull that thing in and out fast enough to keep the engine
actually
running. I think a good way to describe trying to do that would be best
said as using the plunger pump to carry the aircraft to the scene of the
accident.
There are indeed stories of people that have claimed to have actually
pulled
this off, but honestly.... I have my doubts. That plunger pump is is
not a
continuous pressure pump and at best you are going to get quick "shots"
of
power as you pump the crap out of this thing.
An electric pump would indeed meet the definition of a "backup fuel
pump"
while also being a very cool tool for priming.
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Mon, 12/28/09, harley@siriusconinc.com <harley@siriusconinc.com>
wrote:
From: harley@siriusconinc.com <harley@siriusconinc.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
what's wrong with the manual back-up pump?
Martin
----- Original Message -----
From:
<http://us.mc507.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=captaindonhopkin@aol.com>
captaindonhopkin@aol.com
<http://us.mc507.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=yak-list@matronics.com>
yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:26 PM
Subject: **SPAM** Yak-List: Back up Fuel Pump
Hi gang,
I believe this subject was discussed sometime ago, but I can't find the
digest link for it. We'd like to add a back up electric fuel pump in my
Yak
52. Does anyone has schematics, drawings, photos or any suggestions
they'd
like to share? Thanking you all in advance. Ciao.
Don
Captain Don Hopkin
N6868Y
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.howtocrimp.com">www.howtocrimp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Na
vig
ator?Yak-List
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ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
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| Subject: | Re: Back up Fuel Pump |
Barry:
In your kit, what pump do you use?
Do you remove the wobble pump and primer?
Do you remove fuel lines in the cockpit?
How many flight hours do you have on this system?
Is the pump output pressure adjusted to match what the engine expects if used as
a fuel pump in case of primary pump failure? (not enough pressure and the engine
quits anyway...too much and it may flood)
Do you bypass the primary, gear-driven pump?
I know you are trying to avoid "selling" stuff on the list, but this info would
be helpful to the community.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279694#279694
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| Subject: | Re: Christmas Greetings and Program Letters |
Craig:
According to my local FSDO, that is all you need to submit. Don't forget to drop
them a fax if you add a place you want to demo/show your aircraft!
Craig W.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279695#279695
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| Subject: | Re: Huosai fuel system in Homebuilt apps. |
Hi David
I hope my information was helpful. I'm always glad to help a fellow aviator.
Maybe someday there will be a Yak or CJ in your future.
Dale
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279701#279701
Message 10
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| Subject: | Official Yak-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Yak-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Yak-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Yak-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains Yak-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Yak-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Yak-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
yak-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "yak-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Yak-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Yak-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/yak-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Yak-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Yak-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Yak-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Yak-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Yak-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Yak-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Yak-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Yak-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Yak-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Yak-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Yak-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Yak
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Yak-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Yak-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Yak-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Yak-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Yak-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Official Yak-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Yak-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Yak-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Yak-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Yak-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Yak-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Yak-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Yak-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Yak-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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