Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:46 AM - Fw: M14 P Problem (Chris Wise)
2. 05:03 AM - Re: Fw: M14 P Problem (Richard.Goode)
3. 06:12 AM - B&C Alternator (Terry Calloway)
4. 06:34 AM - Re: Fw: M14 P Problem (doug sapp)
5. 06:44 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (cjpilot710@aol.com)
6. 06:52 AM - Re: Fw: M14 P Problem (Mark Davis)
7. 06:59 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Terry Calloway)
8. 07:09 AM - Re: Fw: M14 P Problem (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 09:22 AM - Re: Fw: M14 P Problem (cjpilot710@aol.com)
10. 10:14 AM - Re: Fw: M14 P Problem (Mark Davis)
11. 11:04 AM - Re: Fw: M14 P Problem (cjpilot710@aol.com)
12. 11:44 AM - Fw: Concord KCCR CJ-6A Landing Incident of WE 13JAN10 (Byron Fox)
13. 01:53 PM - Re: Fw: M14 P Problem (Chris Wise)
14. 02:12 PM - Re: Fw: M14 P Problem (Chris Wise)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Fw: M14 P Problem |
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: M14 P Problem
Chris,
Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand . Did not
force the prop.
Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had drained.
Replaced bottom plugs.
Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then the prop
stopped very suddenly.
Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid like something
was seized.
Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you know. He does
not deserve this.
My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom pistons by
inserting a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston has
travelled out of the barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this disaster to see
if oil came out.
He would appreciate any comments and some grief counselling....
Cheers,
Ivor
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: M14 P Problem |
I'm sorry to say but there was clearly still some oil in the
cylinder-possibly in the intake tube;there has been a hydraulic
lock,and,yes,the rod has shortened,and a piston-ring has popped out.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone
is +94 779 132 160.
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Wise
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 4:10 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech
To: Chris Wise
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: M14 P Problem
Chris,
Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand . Did not
force the prop.
Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had drained.
Replaced bottom plugs.
Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then the prop
stopped very suddenly.
Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid like
something was seized.
Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you know. He
does not deserve this.
My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom pistons by
inserting a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston has
travelled out of the barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this disaster to
see if oil came out.
He would appreciate any comments and some grief counselling....
Cheers,
Ivor
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Message 3
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Hi Gang,
I have about 110 hours on my M14 and the other day the alternator light came on.
After going thru the trouble shooting checklist I decided to pull the alternator
and check to see if the coupling had sheared. Sure enough it had but only
because it had dropped down to the point the alternator was only sticking into
the shear coupling about 1/16th of an inch and the pins just shaved the top
of the coupling. The fit was tight enough that when the prop was turned you
could see the alternator still turning.
Yesterday I installed a new coupling and could clearly see it was short. Sure
enough, I started the engine and after warmup idling about 6 minutes the same
thing happened again.
The alternator turns freely when it is off the engine.
Has anyone experienced this?
tc
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: M14 P Problem |
Ivor,
Is this aircraft in a unheated hanger?
If yes, what were the temps at the time?
How or was it preheated?
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Ivor Paech <tmo34003@bigpond.net.au>
> *To:* Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au>
> *Sent:* Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
> *Subject:* M14 P Problem
>
> Chris,
> Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
>
> He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand . Did not force
> the prop.
> Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
> Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
> Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had drained.
> Replaced bottom plugs.
> Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
> Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then the prop stopped
> very suddenly.
>
> Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid like something
> was seized.
>
> Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you know. He does not
> deserve this.
>
> My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom pistons by
> inserting a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston has travelled
> out of the barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
> Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this disaster to see if
> oil came out.
>
> He would appreciate any comments and some grief counselling....
> Cheers,
> Ivor
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Release Date: 12/17/09 19:40:00
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Maybe life is not the party that we were expecting,
but in the mean time, we're here, the band is playing, so we may as well
dance....."
Douglas Sapp
Doug Sapp LLC
18B Riverview Road
Omak WA 98841
PH 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
Terry,
I suggest you give B&C a call. It may be they sent you the wrong
coupling. I had a similar thing happen however it was due to the type of material
they made the coupling with. They got a whole batch of couplings made with
a white Teflon type material and were failing quite early. The newer ones
had a green color and so far (about 300 hours for me) have done well. You
should get more engagement with the coupling than a 1/16 of an inch. B&C
is very good about their products. They may have the answer. I know that
your engine was modified by Barrette, Could it be that during the mod
something was changed that effect the coupling engagement? I am frankly
guessing about that part.
JIm "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/15/2010 9:12:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
terrycalloway@mac.com writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: Terry Calloway <terrycalloway@mac.com>
Hi Gang,
I have about 110 hours on my M14 and the other day the alternator light
came on. After going thru the trouble shooting checklist I decided to pull
the alternator and check to see if the coupling had sheared. Sure enough it
had but only because it had dropped down to the point the alternator was
only sticking into the shear coupling about 1/16th of an inch and the pins
just shaved the top of the coupling. The fit was tight enough that when the
prop was turned you could see the alternator still turning.
Yesterday I installed a new coupling and could clearly see it was short.
Sure enough, I started the engine and after warmup idling about 6 minutes
the same thing happened again.
The alternator turns freely when it is off the engine.
Has anyone experienced this?
tc
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: M14 P Problem |
What kind of oil was in it? Straight 60W oil in an unheated hangar
would take a long time to drain down at freezing temps.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
Ivor,
Is this aircraft in a unheated hanger?
If yes, what were the temps at the time?
How or was it preheated?
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech
To: Chris Wise
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: M14 P Problem
Chris,
Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand . Did not
force the prop.
Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had drained.
Replaced bottom plugs.
Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then the prop
stopped very suddenly.
Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid like
something was seized.
Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you know. He
does not deserve this.
My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom pistons
by inserting a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston has
travelled out of the barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this disaster to
see if oil came out.
He would appreciate any comments and some grief counselling....
Cheers,
Ivor
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Release Date: 12/17/09 19:40:00
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Maybe life is not the party that we were expecting,
but in the mean time, we're here, the band is playing, so we may as
well dance....."
Douglas Sapp
Doug Sapp LLC
18B Riverview Road
Omak WA 98841
PH 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
Thanks Jim,
I have been talking to B&C. I already have the green coupling. They admit it may
be too short and are asking to consider putting a teflon shim at the base
of the male spline shaft to rest on. Sounds scary to me and am asking Barrett
to consider same. No modifications were made to this part of the engine case.
No additional horsepower can be gained there. :)
B&C also stated a guy in Arizona had a similar problem and the male spline wore
a whole in the top of the plug it sits on allowing oil to escape. I don't know
how this problem was fixed.
tc
On Jan 15, 2010, at 8:43 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> Terry,
>
> I suggest you give B&C a call. It may be they sent you the wrong coupling.
I had a similar thing happen however it was due to the type of material they made
the coupling with. They got a whole batch of couplings made with a white
Teflon type material and were failing quite early. The newer ones had a green
color and so far (about 300 hours for me) have done well. You should get more
engagement with the coupling than a 1/16 of an inch. B&C is very good about
their products. They may have the answer. I know that your engine was modified
by Barrette, Could it be that during the mod something was changed that effect
the coupling engagement? I am frankly guessing about that part.
>
> JIm "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> In a message dated 1/15/2010 9:12:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, terrycalloway@mac.com
writes:
>
> Hi Gang,
> I have about 110 hours on my M14 and the other day the alternator light came
on. After going thru the trouble shooting checklist I decided to pull the alternator
and check to see if the coupling had sheared. Sure enough it had but
only because it had dropped down to the point the alternator was only sticking
into the shear coupling about 1/16th of an inch and the pins just shaved the
top of the coupling. The fit was tight enough that when the prop was turned you
could see the alternator still turning.
>
> Yesterday I installed a new coupling and could clearly see it was short. Sure
enough, I started the engine and after warmup idling about 6 minutes the same
thing happened again.
>
> The alternator turns freely when it is off the engine.
>
> Has anyone experienced ======================== e ties Day ================================================
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================
- List Contribution Web Site
sp; ==================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Fw: M14 P Problem |
For what it is worth, I had the same thing ALMOST happen, and the question about
"how cold was it" and "what kind of pre-heat" was used is very apt. As everyone
knows, oil does not flow real well when it is cold. Pulling the plugs,
pulling the intake drains, and turning the prop around in circles until the cows
come home may not be enough. I did this, and when I started it, a really terrifying
amount of oil still came out the exhaust and blew all over the place.
Much more than a normal summer start.
If oil has managed to get down into the intake tubes and it is cold, it will not
get sucked into the cylinders very well when you turn the prop and it does not
want to come out of the intake drains either.
Some folks suggest "thinning out the oil in the intakes" by priming the living
be-jeesus out of the engine, so that the fuel cuts the oil. I don't know if this
works or not... Good luck with that approach.
The original Russian design called for thinning the oil with fuel using the oil
dilution system, which I personally have removed. So much for that.
That leaves pre-heating the engine. A lot. Probably a good approach!
Personally, I would love to see a KIT, where someone takes Kevin Kimball's oil
shut off valve, and does the work necessary to make all the adapter hoses to fit
it, so that it is pre-made bolt on KIT for the YAK, or any other model using
the M-14.
My personal opinion is that the risk of starting the engine with this valve off,
is less than the risk we all are going through with oil causing hydraulic lock,
leaking out all over the floor, etc., etc., etc. A little common sense, a
starter interlock switch, will also cut the chance of being stupid and starting
with the valve off. The importance of this mod just went up 10 notches listening
to this disaster story.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
What kind of oil was in it? Straight 60W oil in an unheated hangar would take
a long time to drain down at freezing temps.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp <mailto:dougsappllc@gmail.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
Ivor,
Is this aircraft in a unheated hanger?
If yes, what were the temps at the time?
How or was it preheated?
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech <mailto:tmo34003@bigpond.net.au>
To: Chris Wise <mailto:wise@txc.net.au>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: M14 P Problem
Chris,
Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand . Did not force the
prop.
Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had drained.
Replaced bottom plugs.
Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then the prop stopped very
suddenly.
Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid like something was
seized.
Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you know. He does not deserve
this.
My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom pistons by inserting
a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston has travelled out of the
barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this disaster to see if oil
came out.
He would appreciate any comments and some grief counselling....
Cheers,
Ivor
________________________________
Release Date: 12/17/09 19:40:00
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Maybe life is not the party that we were expecting,
but in the mean time, we're here, the band is playing, so we may as well dance....."
Douglas Sapp
Doug Sapp LLC
18B Riverview Road
Omak WA 98841
PH 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: M14 P Problem |
The system that Mark describe is what I have. Basically, its an electric
shut-off valve right at the base of the oil tank. The electrical circuit
for the starter air solenoid is opened or closed by the actual position of
the valve -not power to the valve motor. When the valve is open - the
starter works - when valve is close the starter don't. HOWEVER YOU CAN CLOSE
THE VALVE WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING! Now this can be a good thing too believe
it or not. On a normal engine shutdown - you run the RPM up to 1900 for
some 20 seconds (I think that's what the book says) to purge the engine.
What I do and done for hundreds of hours now, is take the RPMs up - after 20
seconds or so, I CLOSE the oil tank valve. I than reduce throttle, and
watch for an oil pressure drop. The engine is at idle and when the pressure
hits zero, I switch off the mags. I believe this has truly purged the
engine. I know get I ZERO oil on the hangar floor. Oh I still pull through
before every start, but I've never had a lock-up (knock on wood) on this
engine. And unless my oil gage is stuck, my oil pressure has not changed for
some 1,500 hours. This switch has a guard on it and is a 2 position switch.
If the guard is down, than the switch is in the valve open position. The
switch can only be moved to the closed position if you raise the guard up.
Drop the guard the switch goes to the valve open position.
Bill Blackwell set this up for me years ago. There are some other
drawbacks that can happen in odd ball situations. Like you have a dead battery
but plenty of air pressure. You can start the engine by manually opening the
start air valve. OK but you need to have that oil tank open too. On my
system there is a manual level also on the oil valve.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/15/2010 10:10:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
For what it is worth, I had the same thing ALMOST happen, and the question
about "how cold was it" and "what kind of pre-heat" was used is very apt.
As everyone knows, oil does not flow real well when it is cold. Pulling
the plugs, pulling the intake drains, and turning the prop around in circles
until the cows come home may not be enough. I did this, and when I
started it, a really terrifying amount of oil still came out the exhaust and blew
all over the place. Much more than a normal summer start.
If oil has managed to get down into the intake tubes and it is cold, it
will not get sucked into the cylinders very well when you turn the prop and
it does not want to come out of the intake drains either.
Some folks suggest "thinning out the oil in the intakes" by priming the
living be-jeesus out of the engine, so that the fuel cuts the oil. I don't
know if this works or not... Good luck with that approach.
The original Russian design called for thinning the oil with fuel using
the oil dilution system, which I personally have removed. So much for that.
That leaves pre-heating the engine. A lot. Probably a good approach!
Personally, I would love to see a KIT, where someone takes Kevin Kimball's
oil shut off valve, and does the work necessary to make all the adapter
hoses to fit it, so that it is pre-made bolt on KIT for the YAK, or any other
model using the M-14.
My personal opinion is that the risk of starting the engine with this
valve off, is less than the risk we all are going through with oil causing
hydraulic lock, leaking out all over the floor, etc., etc., etc. A little
common sense, a starter interlock switch, will also cut the chance of being
stupid and starting with the valve off. The importance of this mod just went
up 10 notches listening to this disaster story.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
What kind of oil was in it? Straight 60W oil in an unheated hangar would
take a long time to drain down at freezing temps.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp <mailto:dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
Ivor,
Is this aircraft in a unheated hanger?
If yes, what were the temps at the time?
How or was it preheated?
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech <mailto:tmo34003@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: M14 P Problem
Chris,
Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand . Did not force
the prop.
Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had drained.
Replaced bottom plugs.
Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then the prop
stopped very suddenly.
Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid like something
was seized.
Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you know. He does not
deserve this.
My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom pistons by
inserting a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston has travelled out
of the barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this disaster to see if
oil came out.
He would appreciate any comments and some grief counselling....
Cheers,
Ivor
________________________________
Release Date: 12/17/09 19:40:00
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Maybe life is not the party that we were expecting,
but in the mean time, we're here, the band is playing, so we may as well
dance....."
Douglas Sapp
Doug Sapp LLC
18B Riverview Road
Omak WA 98841
PH 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: M14 P Problem |
Pappy,
Do you have a pre-oiler installed on your engine? If not, how long
does it take for you to get oil pressure on a normal start after doing
your shutdown procedure?
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
The system that Mark describe is what I have. Basically, its an
electric shut-off valve right at the base of the oil tank. The
electrical circuit for the starter air solenoid is opened or closed by
the actual position of the valve -not power to the valve motor. When
the valve is open - the starter works - when valve is close the starter
don't. HOWEVER YOU CAN CLOSE THE VALVE WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING! Now
this can be a good thing too believe it or not. On a normal engine
shutdown - you run the RPM up to 1900 for some 20 seconds (I think
that's what the book says) to purge the engine. What I do and done for
hundreds of hours now, is take the RPMs up - after 20 seconds or so, I
CLOSE the oil tank valve. I than reduce throttle, and watch for an oil
pressure drop. The engine is at idle and when the pressure hits zero, I
switch off the mags. I believe this has truly purged the engine. I
know get I ZERO oil on the hangar floor. Oh I still pull through before
every start, but I've never had a lock-up (knock on wood) on this
engine. And unless my oil gage is stuck, my oil pressure has not
changed for some 1,500 hours. This switch has a guard on it and is a 2
position switch. If the guard is down, than the switch is in the valve
open position. The switch can only be moved to the closed position if
you raise the guard up. Drop the guard the switch goes to the valve
open position.
Bill Blackwell set this up for me years ago. There are some other
drawbacks that can happen in odd ball situations. Like you have a dead
battery but plenty of air pressure. You can start the engine by
manually opening the start air valve. OK but you need to have that oil
tank open too. On my system there is a manual level also on the oil
valve.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/15/2010 10:10:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
For what it is worth, I had the same thing ALMOST happen, and the
question about "how cold was it" and "what kind of pre-heat" was used is
very apt. As everyone knows, oil does not flow real well when it is
cold. Pulling the plugs, pulling the intake drains, and turning the
prop around in circles until the cows come home may not be enough. I
did this, and when I started it, a really terrifying amount of oil still
came out the exhaust and blew all over the place. Much more than a
normal summer start.
If oil has managed to get down into the intake tubes and it is cold,
it will not get sucked into the cylinders very well when you turn the
prop and it does not want to come out of the intake drains either.
Some folks suggest "thinning out the oil in the intakes" by priming
the living be-jeesus out of the engine, so that the fuel cuts the oil.
I don't know if this works or not... Good luck with that approach.
The original Russian design called for thinning the oil with fuel
using the oil dilution system, which I personally have removed. So much
for that.
That leaves pre-heating the engine. A lot. Probably a good
approach!
Personally, I would love to see a KIT, where someone takes Kevin
Kimball's oil shut off valve, and does the work necessary to make all
the adapter hoses to fit it, so that it is pre-made bolt on KIT for the
YAK, or any other model using the M-14.
My personal opinion is that the risk of starting the engine with
this valve off, is less than the risk we all are going through with oil
causing hydraulic lock, leaking out all over the floor, etc., etc., etc.
A little common sense, a starter interlock switch, will also cut the
chance of being stupid and starting with the valve off. The importance
of this mod just went up 10 notches listening to this disaster story.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:52 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
What kind of oil was in it? Straight 60W oil in an unheated hangar
would take a long time to drain down at freezing temps.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp <mailto:dougsappllc@gmail.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
Ivor,
Is this aircraft in a unheated hanger?
If yes, what were the temps at the time?
How or was it preheated?
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au>
wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech <mailto:tmo34003@bigpond.net.au>
To: Chris Wise <mailto:wise@txc.net.au>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: M14 P Problem
Chris,
Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand .
Did not force the prop.
Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had
drained.
Replaced bottom plugs.
Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then
the prop stopped very suddenly.
Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid
like something was seized.
Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you
know. He does not deserve this.
My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom
pistons by inserting a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston
has travelled out of the barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this
disaster to see if oil came out.
He would appreciate any comments and some grief
counselling....
Cheers,
Ivor
________________________________
Release Date: 12/17/09 19:40:00
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Maybe life is not the party that we were expecting,
but in the mean time, we're here, the band is playing, so we may
as well dance....."
Douglas Sapp
Doug Sapp LLC
18B Riverview Road
Omak WA 98841
PH 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: M14 P Problem |
Yep I do have a pre-oiler. And I use it religiously. When I engage it,
it takes about 30 to 45 sec for the needle move but it never gets up to
normal pressure readings. After starting, the regular engine driven oil pump,
brings the pressure up with-in 20 seconds at most. A long time ago, I
wanted to see how quickly the oil was going though the engine using the
pre-oiler. I did this by opening the plug in the casting oil galley that leads
to the prop. I than turned on the pre-oiler. It took less than 8 seconds.
I am fairly certain that oil going to the other inter sections (bearing
and such) takes longer and that is why I wait to see pressure of the gage.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/15/2010 1:14:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mark@pld.com writes:
Pappy,
Do you have a pre-oiler installed on your engine? If not, how long
does it take for you to get oil pressure on a normal start after doing your
shutdown procedure?
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: _cjpilot710@aol.com_ (mailto:cjpilot710@aol.com)
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
The system that Mark describe is what I have. Basically, its an electric
shut-off valve right at the base of the oil tank. The electrical circuit
for the starter air solenoid is opened or closed by the actual position of
the valve -not power to the valve motor. When the valve is open - the
starter works - when valve is close the starter don't. HOWEVER YOU CAN CLOSE
THE VALVE WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING! Now this can be a good thing too believe
it or not. On a normal engine shutdown - you run the RPM up to 1900 for
some 20 seconds (I think that's what the book says) to purge the engine.
What I do and done for hundreds of hours now, is take the RPMs up - after 20
seconds or so, I CLOSE the oil tank valve. I than reduce throttle, and
watch for an oil pressure drop. The engine is at idle and when the pressure
hits zero, I switch off the mags. I believe this has truly purged the
engine. I know get I ZERO oil on the hangar floor. Oh I still pull through
before every start, but I've never had a lock-up (knock on wood) on this
engine. And unless my oil gage is stuck, my oil pressure has not changed for
some 1,500 hours. This switch has a guard on it and is a 2 position switch.
If the guard is down, than the switch is in the valve open position. The
switch can only be moved to the closed position if you raise the guard up.
Drop the guard the switch goes to the valve open position.
Bill Blackwell set this up for me years ago. There are some other
drawbacks that can happen in odd ball situations. Like you have a dead battery
but plenty of air pressure. You can start the engine by manually opening the
start air valve. OK but you need to have that oil tank open too. On my
system there is a manual level also on the oil valve.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/15/2010 10:10:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
For what it is worth, I had the same thing ALMOST happen, and the question
about "how cold was it" and "what kind of pre-heat" was used is very apt.
As everyone knows, oil does not flow real well when it is cold. Pulling
the plugs, pulling the intake drains, and turning the prop around in
circles until the cows come home may not be enough. I did this, and when I
started it, a really terrifying amount of oil still came out the exhaust and
blew all over the place. Much more than a normal summer start.
If oil has managed to get down into the intake tubes and it is cold, it
will not get sucked into the cylinders very well when you turn the prop and
it does not want to come out of the intake drains either.
Some folks suggest "thinning out the oil in the intakes" by priming the
living be-jeesus out of the engine, so that the fuel cuts the oil. I don't
know if this works or not... Good luck with that approach.
The original Russian design called for thinning the oil with fuel using
the oil dilution system, which I personally have removed. So much for that.
That leaves pre-heating the engine. A lot. Probably a good approach!
Personally, I would love to see a KIT, where someone takes Kevin Kimball's
oil shut off valve, and does the work necessary to make all the adapter
hoses to fit it, so that it is pre-made bolt on KIT for the YAK, or any other
model using the M-14.
My personal opinion is that the risk of starting the engine with this
valve off, is less than the risk we all are going through with oil causing
hydraulic lock, leaking out all over the floor, etc., etc., etc. A little
common sense, a starter interlock switch, will also cut the chance of being
stupid and starting with the valve off. The importance of this mod just went
up 10 notches listening to this disaster story.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
What kind of oil was in it? Straight 60W oil in an unheated hangar would
take a long time to drain down at freezing temps.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp <mailto:dougsappllc@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
Ivor,
Is this aircraft in a unheated hanger?
If yes, what were the temps at the time?
How or was it preheated?
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech <mailto:tmo34003@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: M14 P Problem
Chris,
Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand . Did not force
the prop.
Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had drained.
Replaced bottom plugs.
Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then the prop
stopped very suddenly.
Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid like something
was seized.
Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you know. He does
not deserve this.
My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom pistons by
inserting a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston has travelled out
of the barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this disaster to see if
oil came out.
He would appreciate any comments and some grief counselling....
Cheers,
Ivor
________________________________
Release Date: 12/17/09 19:40:00
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Maybe life is not the party that we were expecting,
but in the mean time, we're here, the band is playing, so we may as well
dance....."
Douglas Sapp
Doug Sapp LLC
18B Riverview Road
Omak WA 98841
PH 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Fwd: Concord KCCR CJ-6A Landing Incident of WE 13JAN10 |
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
> From: James Woodall <jawz4@comcast.net>
> Date: January 15, 2010 10:40:56 AM PST
> To: Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com>
> Subject: Fwd: Concord KCCR CJ-6A Landing Incident of WE 13JAN10
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: James Woodall <jetlagd@gmail.com>
>> Date: January 15, 2010 10:30:47 AM PST
>> To: Yak-List@matronics.com
>> Subject: Concord KCCR CJ-6A Landing Incident of WE 13JAN10
>>
>> Last Wednesday after an uneventful 55 minute flight I returned for
>> landing on RWY 19R (5000') at Concord, CA (KCCR). WX was 3500'
>> scattered clouds, visibility greater than 6 mi. and winds 210 deg.
>> at 7 knots. I had a normal touchdown and raised the nose for a few
>> seconds to aerodynamically slow the aircraft. As the nose fell
>> through with loss of lift I continued to track the centerline and
>> slow. About five hundred feet from my taxiway exit the nose of
>> the aircraft slowly and smoothly started to rise and as it rose
>> began to yaw left. I am estimating I was probably about 25-30
>> mph. All of my control inputs were ineffective and the aircraft
>> departed the controlled surface and came to rest about 40 ft. to
>> the left of the runway. The left main landing gear gradually
>> collapsed over a period of several seconds. The plane has a
>> damaged left wing tip, and some missing and scuffed ceconite on the
>> left aileron. The bottom right 2' of the Left gear door skin is
>> damaged. The worst appears to be the sheet metal damage to the
>> outboard 18" or so of the flap.
>>
>> With the help of Airport Crash and Fire and my FBO we arranged to
>> lift the plane back up with an engine hoist and sling. Long story
>> short, 4 of us wound up just lifting the wing and as soon as the
>> Left gear had clearance it went smartly back into place with a nice
>> "thunk". The last two days have been extremely busy but on the
>> advice of Byron Fox and Doug Sapp I wanted to get some information
>> out to our community. I am meeting the insurance adjuster in 45
>> minutes, but I can add that yesterday John Long flew over from
>> Marin with his jacks and we swung the gear 5 times with normal gear
>> up and down results in the presence of my FBO mechanic. John also
>> visually inspected the gear and manipulated it back and forth and
>> side to side and it seemed fine. I will be sending the actuator up
>> to Doug and he will inspect.
>>
>> As I get more information I will be posting it to the community,
>> but I wanted to at least get this out there. The Oakland FSDO Rep
>> that I met with yesterday called it an incident with minor damage,
>> as did the NTSB, The FSDO Rep was surprised it how little damage
>> there was as his early information said there had been a prop
>> strike. That was not the case.
>>
>> I would like to acknowledge that everyone in this community that I
>> have mentioned, and others such as Jim Selby have been incredibly
>> supportive. I feel blessed to have found such a group of pilots
>> and friends. I hope to meet all of you at All Red Star in the
>> spring.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Jim Woodall
>> Moraga, CA
>> jetlagd@gmail.com
>> .
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: M14 P Problem |
G'Day Doug,
Thanks for the reply.
No, the hanger had no need to be heated as this is summertime and temps
are now high 20"s C to 30's C
The consenses seems to to be that there may have been oil left in the
tubes and that yes the rod has bent and the ring has poped out.
Thanks and regards,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
Ivor,
Is this aircraft in a unheated hanger?
If yes, what were the temps at the time?
How or was it preheated?
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech
To: Chris Wise
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: M14 P Problem
Chris,
Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand . Did not
force the prop.
Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had drained.
Replaced bottom plugs.
Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then the prop
stopped very suddenly.
Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid like
something was seized.
Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you know. He
does not deserve this.
My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom pistons
by inserting a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston has
travelled out of the barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this disaster to
see if oil came out.
He would appreciate any comments and some grief counselling....
Cheers,
Ivor
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Release Date: 12/17/09 19:40:00
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Maybe life is not the party that we were expecting,
but in the mean time, we're here, the band is playing, so we may as
well dance....."
Douglas Sapp
Doug Sapp LLC
18B Riverview Road
Omak WA 98841
PH 509-826-4610
Fax 509-826-3644
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
12/17/09 19:40:00
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fw: M14 P Problem |
G'Day Jim,
The reply from both you and Mark make perfect sense.
Thanks for the reply and as I replied to Mark, the oil shut off valve
has now become a priority to fit to our 18T.
I am forwarding all the replies to Ivor who is actually our LAME and he
also runs a 18T.
Ivor has done the LAME certification and inspections and so on for most
of the Yaks the were brought into Australia by Red Stars Aviation.
Cheers and kind regards,
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: cjpilot710@aol.com
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
The system that Mark describe is what I have. Basically, its an
electric shut-off valve right at the base of the oil tank. The
electrical circuit for the starter air solenoid is opened or closed by
the actual position of the valve -not power to the valve motor. When
the valve is open - the starter works - when valve is close the starter
don't. HOWEVER YOU CAN CLOSE THE VALVE WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING! Now
this can be a good thing too believe it or not. On a normal engine
shutdown - you run the RPM up to 1900 for some 20 seconds (I think
that's what the book says) to purge the engine. What I do and done for
hundreds of hours now, is take the RPMs up - after 20 seconds or so, I
CLOSE the oil tank valve. I than reduce throttle, and watch for an oil
pressure drop. The engine is at idle and when the pressure hits zero, I
switch off the mags. I believe this has truly purged the engine. I
know get I ZERO oil on the hangar floor. Oh I still pull through before
every start, but I've never had a lock-up (knock on wood) on this
engine. And unless my oil gage is stuck, my oil pressure has not
changed for some 1,500 hours. This switch has a guard on it and is a 2
position switch. If the guard is down, than the switch is in the valve
open position. The switch can only be moved to the closed position if
you raise the guard up. Drop the guard the switch goes to the valve
open position.
Bill Blackwell set this up for me years ago. There are some other
drawbacks that can happen in odd ball situations. Like you have a dead
battery but plenty of air pressure. You can start the engine by
manually opening the start air valve. OK but you need to have that oil
tank open too. On my system there is a manual level also on the oil
valve.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/15/2010 10:10:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
For what it is worth, I had the same thing ALMOST happen, and the
question about "how cold was it" and "what kind of pre-heat" was used is
very apt. As everyone knows, oil does not flow real well when it is
cold. Pulling the plugs, pulling the intake drains, and turning the
prop around in circles until the cows come home may not be enough. I
did this, and when I started it, a really terrifying amount of oil still
came out the exhaust and blew all over the place. Much more than a
normal summer start.
If oil has managed to get down into the intake tubes and it is cold,
it will not get sucked into the cylinders very well when you turn the
prop and it does not want to come out of the intake drains either.
Some folks suggest "thinning out the oil in the intakes" by priming
the living be-jeesus out of the engine, so that the fuel cuts the oil.
I don't know if this works or not... Good luck with that approach.
The original Russian design called for thinning the oil with fuel
using the oil dilution system, which I personally have removed. So much
for that.
That leaves pre-heating the engine. A lot. Probably a good
approach!
Personally, I would love to see a KIT, where someone takes Kevin
Kimball's oil shut off valve, and does the work necessary to make all
the adapter hoses to fit it, so that it is pre-made bolt on KIT for the
YAK, or any other model using the M-14.
My personal opinion is that the risk of starting the engine with
this valve off, is less than the risk we all are going through with oil
causing hydraulic lock, leaking out all over the floor, etc., etc., etc.
A little common sense, a starter interlock switch, will also cut the
chance of being stupid and starting with the valve off. The importance
of this mod just went up 10 notches listening to this disaster story.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:52 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
What kind of oil was in it? Straight 60W oil in an unheated hangar
would take a long time to drain down at freezing temps.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp <mailto:dougsappllc@gmail.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Fw: M14 P Problem
Ivor,
Is this aircraft in a unheated hanger?
If yes, what were the temps at the time?
How or was it preheated?
Always Yakin,
Doug Sapp
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au>
wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech <mailto:tmo34003@bigpond.net.au>
To: Chris Wise <mailto:wise@txc.net.au>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 10:09 AM
Subject: M14 P Problem
Chris,
Details of our friend's dilemma with the Yak 18T....
He detected an hydrualic lock by turning the prop by hand .
Did not force the prop.
Removed plugs from lower cyls and drained oil .
Turned prop 18 blades in direction of rotation.
Ensured that drain manifold was open and manifold had
drained.
Replaced bottom plugs.
Primed engine in normal way and initiated a start.
Prop moved and engine fired a couple of cylinders and then
the prop stopped very suddenly.
Got out and could not move the prop at all. Locked solid
like something was seized.
Now this operator is very careful and conciencious as you
know. He does not deserve this.
My only suggestion is to measure the position of the bottom
pistons by inserting a wire through the plug holes and see if a piston
has travelled out of the barrel and the piston has popped a ring out.
Forgot to ask if he removed the bottom plugs after this
disaster to see if oil came out.
He would appreciate any comments and some grief
counselling....
Cheers,
Ivor
________________________________
Release Date: 12/17/09 19:40:00
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Maybe life is not the party that we were expecting,
but in the mean time, we're here, the band is playing, so we may
as well dance....."
Douglas Sapp
Doug Sapp LLC
18B Riverview Road
Omak WA 98841
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