Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Re: The Hydraulic lock (Francois Davel)
2. 06:01 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Roger Kemp M.D.)
3. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (rick@rvairshows.com)
4. 07:24 AM - Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure (Byron Fox)
5. 08:39 AM - Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure (jetjockey)
6. 08:52 AM - Oil Shut off (Barry Hancock)
7. 09:48 AM - Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure (doug sapp)
8. 10:30 AM - Re: Oil Shut off (Larry Pine)
9. 10:49 AM - Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure (Byron Fox)
10. 11:05 AM - Re: Oil Shut off (barryhancock)
11. 11:25 AM - Oil Tank Crack (ggg6@att.net)
12. 01:33 PM - scavenge pump (Chris Wise)
13. 01:42 PM - Re: Fw: Re: The Hydraulic lock (William Halverson)
14. 02:29 PM - Re: scavenge pump (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
15. 02:34 PM - Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure (pilotdog57@aol.com)
16. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
17. 04:32 PM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Kevin Kimball)
18. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Martin (Home))
19. 06:20 PM - Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure (William Halverson)
20. 06:33 PM - Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure (cjpilot710@aol.com)
21. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Eric Wobschall)
22. 07:57 PM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (RICHARD VOLKER)
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Hi there Larry, point taken, but the less oil you have the less is the chance for
the LOCK.
I am not sure and hopefully there is wisdom on this list that can answer the question:
Is there enough oil in the upper part of the engine that could drain into the lower
cylinders, to cause a hydraulic lock?
Cheers
Francois
--------
Round Engines RULE!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288477#288477
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Yes. The prudent pilot will always pull blades before starting this engine.
doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francois Davel
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:47 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Hi there Larry, point taken, but the less oil you have the less is the
chance for the LOCK.
I am not sure and hopefully there is wisdom on this list that can answer the
question:
Is there enough oil in the upper part of the engine that could drain into
the lower cylinders, to cause a hydraulic lock?
Cheers
Francois
--------
Round Engines RULE!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288477#288477
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
And pull it through even after a fifteen minute fuel stop. You will also occasionally
get a lock five hours after a run on a hot day, that requires pulling bottom
spark plugs to clear.
Rick Volker
------Original Message------
From: Roger Kemp M.D.
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Sent: Feb 27, 2010 9:00 AM
Yes. The prudent pilot will always pull blades before starting this engine.
doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francois Davel
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:47 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Hi there Larry, point taken, but the less oil you have the less is the
chance for the LOCK.
I am not sure and hopefully there is wisdom on this list that can answer the
question:
Is there enough oil in the upper part of the engine that could drain into
the lower cylinders, to cause a hydraulic lock?
Cheers
Francois
--------
Round Engines RULE!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288477#288477
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
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| Subject: | Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure |
In the course of our M14P conversion, I decided yesterday to repaint
the oil tank. As we began to remove the oil shutoff valve, a 2" crack
appeared in the oil tank adjacent to the blue AN coupling between the
valve and the tank. In the picture below, note the thin stream of oil
running just aft of the coupling.
It would appear that over time the vibration of the valve's mass using
the coupling as a lever fractured the thin aluminum wall of the tank.
When first installed, the valve should have been secured to the
firewall to inhibit the resulting harmonic. If you have this
installation, check it.
We got lucky yesterday, and we've decided not to reinstall the
valve. ...Blitz
Sent from my iPhone
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure |
This is a very timely post since I am in the process of installing a Kimball oil
shutoff valve right now. I initially planned to install the valve on the oil
tank exactly as shown in the picture but removed it because I had serious concerns
about vibration and cracking of the oil tank which now seem to be validated.
I am currently in the process of evaluating alternate installations. Has
anyone else installed a Kimball valve on a CJ with a Housai engine? If so,
would you please share your installation details and location along with some
pictures, if possible?
Thanks,
Ray
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288494#288494
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Gang,
I think I can succinctly give my perspective on this.
The internal oil shutoff valve is great...when it works. The question is, do you
want to disassemble and clean it every time particulate gets attached to the
ball to restore it's proper function?
Electric shutoff. I have run them on my CJ's for nearly all of my roughly 1000
hrs. behind them, and there are dozens, if not scores of others that have flown
with these Whittaker type valves without incident. I'd say that over 10,000
hours of flying without a known failure incident in this application alone is
pretty good "proof in the pudding."
In my opinion, $45 for a valve is awfully lucky, if not less than smart. There
are applications that it makes sense to find less expensive solutions - engine
systems are not on of those places, in my opinion. Even the valves that are
out there for hundreds of dollars are likely to be very old and long since out
of commission - again, unless you get really lucky. In any event, replacement
parts, are tough to come by and very expensive, as Blitz says.
The simple mechanical valve made by Kimball is about as fail safe as it comes (as
mentioned previously, I believe), is relatively inexpensive, light weight,
small, simple to install,. For this reason we are now exclusively installing
the Kimball valve on our aircraft. This is, in our opinion, a modern day solution
to the ongoing maintenance headache that is the 40+ year old design of the
internal ball valve.
Happy Flying,
Barry
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
"Making your warbird dreams a reality"
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure |
Blitz,
If you cannot repair yours I do have some new tanks in stock.
I would think that a good welder could make a safe long lasting repair.
Especially if after the repair was done a reinforcement plate was then
welded over this area you would have a double repair, and it would
most likely last longer than you will even if you reinstall the valve the
same way you have it now. I think the installation dwg which I got from
Craig Payne called for the plate to be installed.
Doug
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the course of our M14P conversion, I decided yesterday to repaint the
> oil tank. As we began to remove the oil shutoff valve, a 2" crack appeared
> in the oil tank adjacent to the blue AN coupling between the valve and the
> tank. In the picture below, note the thin stream of oil running just aft of
> the coupling.
>
> It would appear that over time the vibration of the valve's mass using the
> coupling as a lever fractured the thin aluminum wall of the tank. When first
> installed, the valve should have been secured to the firewall to inhibit
> the resulting harmonic. If you have this installation, check it.
>
> We got lucky yesterday, and we've decided not to reinstall the valve.
> ...Blitz
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List</a>
> http://forums.matronics.com</a>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shut off |
Maybe I was a little casual in my remarks.- Let me clarify my answer.-
If any mechanical valve or structure is attached to the existing oil tank b
ungs, you WILL have to re-enforce the lower part of the tank and the existi
ng Chinese bungs.- As pointed out, the Chinese aluminum is thin in this a
rea and can not and should not support any other structure with exception o
f the original fitting and hose.- People who have done this mod, that I h
ave seen, have done just that and I have seen nor heard of any other cracks
developing from the mod.
Second:- A starter cut-off circuit is a must if you install any device th
at can starve your engine from oil if not opened properly.- This should b
e done in such away that monitors the limit switch in the full open or full
closed position. If a valve opens half way, you will want to know.- A sm
art design would include a cut-off of the started solenoid and the shower o
f sparks.
Lastly: The easiest to install and design is the simple Kimball valve.- B
ut, if you wish to install an ITT/ Whittaker or any other electric actuated
valve is fine too.- There is a surplus of modern day, still in productio
n, parts available valves out there if you know where to look.
Forr instance, Bell 206,- Cessna Jet and MD helicopter valves are great a
nd still in production.- These valve have a high MTBF, but still fail eve
ntually.- The trick is to find a valve that works, is not too old and sur
plus availability is good.- As I meantioned, I have two or three that fun
ction and can use for parts and paid on average $45.00 each. - If you kno
w what your looking for, it's not a bad deal.
Larry Pine
--- On Sat, 2/27/10, Barry Hancock <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com> wrote:
From: Barry Hancock <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Oil Shut off
om>
Gang,
I think I can succinctly give my perspective on this.-
The internal oil shutoff valve is great...when it works.- The question is
, do you want to disassemble and clean it every time particulate gets attac
hed to the ball to restore it's proper function?-
Electric shutoff.- I have run them on my CJ's for nearly all of my roughl
y 1000 hrs. behind them, and there are dozens, if not scores of others that
have flown with these Whittaker type valves without incident.- I'd say t
hat over 10,000 hours of flying without a known failure incident in this ap
plication alone is pretty good "proof in the pudding."-
In my opinion, $45 for a valve is awfully lucky, if not less than smart.-
There are applications that it makes sense to find less expensive solution
s - engine systems are not on of those places, in my opinion.- Even the v
alves that are out there for hundreds of dollars are likely to be very old
and long since out of commission - again, unless you get really lucky.- I
n any event, replacement parts, are tough to come by and very expensive, as
Blitz says.
The simple mechanical valve made by Kimball is about as fail safe as it com
es (as mentioned previously, I believe), is relatively inexpensive, light w
eight, small, simple to install,.- For this reason we are now exclusively
installing the Kimball valve on our aircraft.- This is, in our opinion,
a modern day solution to the ongoing maintenance headache that is the 40+ y
ear old design of the internal ball valve.
Happy Flying,
Barry
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
"Making your warbird dreams a reality"
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure |
The welder was to come late yesterday after I left Ramona. I'll check
with Vladimir. Thanks, B
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 27, 2010, at 9:47 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Blitz,
> If you cannot repair yours I do have some new tanks in stock.
>
> I would think that a good welder could make a safe long lasting
> repair. Especially if after the repair was done a reinforcement
> plate was then welded over this area you would have a double repair,
> and it would most likely last longer than you will even if you
> reinstall the valve the same way you have it now. I think the
> installation dwg which I got from Craig Payne called for the plate
> to be installed.
>
> Doug
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> In the course of our M14P conversion, I decided yesterday to
> repaint the oil tank. As we began to remove the oil shutoff valve, a
> 2" crack appeared in the oil tank adjacent to the blue AN coupling
> between the valve and the tank. In the picture below, note the thin
> stream of oil running just aft of the coupling.
>
> It would appear that over time the vibration of the valve's mass
> using the coupling as a lever fractured the thin aluminum wall of
> the tank. When first installed, the valve should have been secured
> to the firewall to inhibit the resulting harmonic. If you have this
> installation, check it.
>
> We got lucky yesterday, and we've decided not to reinstall the
> valve. ...Blitz
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> ==========
> igator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List</a>
> ==========
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> </a>
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> tribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> </a>
> ==========
>
> </b></font></pre>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shut off |
Good post, Larry. I was not at all trying to be contrary. [Wink]
Like you say, the $45 dollar valves are good for part...if you wish to take the
time and have the required skills to do the job correctly. I have the Whittaker
valve on my CJ and will keep it there until it wears out.
As you and others pointed out the MUST is an electrical interrupt that prevents
engine start with the valve closed.
As for the oil tank mod...mine was done (back in the day before this hobby became
a business) with the "plate" and cracked after less than 200 hours of flying.
The design isn't optimal and puts all the pressure on the 4 corners...which
makes a crack at some point more likely. We 4 use gussets around the bungs
which are incredibly strong and disburse the load along a much wider area on that
soft, thin, Chinese aluminum. Ultimately, time will tell, but the design
seems to be "the next step" in longevity.
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
(909) 606-4444
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288521#288521
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Message 12
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G'Day all,
2 of us have bought the Jim Kimballs shut-off valve with micro switch
which I shall wire into the starter button circuit and have bought a
very bright red panel light which will come on when the circuit is
interupted, ie, valve starts moving away from open position and micro
switch and the normally open set of contacts become closed and power up
the light.
We have also bought the Jim Kimball scavenge pump kit.
Have any of you fitted the scavenge pump kit and with what results and
benifits.
I geuss that what I am asking is, is it worth fitting the scavenge pump.
I am led to believe that by fitting the valve, the scavenge pump is a
waste of time.
But surely the scavenge pump would clear the engine of any remaining
oil?
Being a radial I would think that the pump is a good idea?
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Agreed! Also good excercise!
+-----Original Message-----
+From: Larry Pine [mailto:threein60@yahoo.com]
+Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 01:21 PM
+To: yak-list@matronics.com
+Subject: Re: Fw: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
+
+Keep in mind.. Even with an oil shut-off valve, the splash and ported oil in the
top cylinders and gears will still drip down to the lowest point in the engine.
So the long and short is.. You must always pull your engine through, with
of without and external mods.
+
+Larry Pine
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Chris, I like a scavenge pump, but in some cases you have to be careful how it
is connected to the lower sump drain, assuming it is. This drain is semi-fragile
and if your new scavenge pump hose is not properly supported, it could put
excess load on this fitting and break it.
That said, this pump pretty much empties the lower sump. Most oil that is left
in the engine after shut down will drain into this sump. Not to take away from
the suggestion that we must ALWAYS pull our props through, using this sump
will typically mean that very little or any oil will eventually end up in the
lower cylinders. After you shut down, use this pump, turn off your new oil shut-off
valve... and any remaining oil will not be enough to fill up the sump.
It's just another step in trying to keep oil out of the cylinders. Maybe not as
big a step as your new shut-off valve, but worth doing, especially if you already
purchased it!
Just be careful modifying the lower sump drain, if indeed this kit requires that,
which I suspect it will. The ones I have installed always have.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Chris Wise
Sent: Sat 2/27/2010 4:31 PM
Subject: Yak-List: scavenge pump
G'Day all,
2 of us have bought the Jim Kimballs shut-off valve with micro switch which I shall
wire into the starter button circuit and have bought a very bright red panel
light which will come on when the circuit is interupted, ie, valve starts
moving away from open position and micro switch and the normally open set of contacts
become closed and power up the light.
We have also bought the Jim Kimball scavenge pump kit.
Have any of you fitted the scavenge pump kit and with what results and benifits.
I geuss that what I am asking is, is it worth fitting the scavenge pump.
I am led to believe that by fitting the valve, the scavenge pump is a waste of
time.
But surely the scavenge pump would clear the engine of any remaining oil?
Being a radial I would think that the pump is a good idea?
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure |
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ICANCj4gMiIgY3JhY2sgYXBwZWFyZWQgaW4gdGhlIG9pbCB0YW5rIGFkamFjZW50IHRvIHRoZSBi
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Y291cGxpbmcgYXMgYSBsZXZlciBmcmFjdHVyZWQgdGhlIHRoaW4gYWx1bWludW0gd2FsbCBvZiAg
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ZSBiZWVuIHNlY3VyZWQgIA0KPiB0byB0aGUgZmlyZXdhbGwgdG8gaW5oaWJpdCB0aGUgcmVzdWx0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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Yes?
My answer would be that it is very hard to tell what oil comes from the top of
the engine and what oil has leaked through a poorly seated ball check valve.
If you have a oil shut off valve, and turn it off immediately after you land, ...
along with a lower sump pump.... I would be curious to know how much oil came
out of ANYTHING... plugs, sump, you name it... after landing, turning off the
valve, using the sump pump, letting it sit for a MONTH and then coming back
to see exactly how much is in it.
My few experiences with engines set up like this is ... nothing. Less than maybe
a few ounces. NONE in the cylinders. NONE!
However, without having these devices, it is very very possible to have an engine
hyd. lock even in 15 minutes to 30 minutes, with the right conditions, as was
mentioned.
You also must pull it through ... as was mentioned.
But the few engines I have had experience with that had both a sump pump and a
shut-off valve, that were used directly after shutdown, have never had a drop
of oil come out of ANYPLACE a month after just sitting there.
I guess if you had cracked rings and stacked rings, the oil could just run down
right into the cylinder it might be possible.
Bottom line it becomes a moot debate, or discussion. If you don't have the sump
pump and you don't have the oil shut off valve, ... the amount of oil that
gets into cylinders on exactly what engine and exactly after so many minutes,
is going to vary from one engine to another and there is no way to predict exactly
how much.
mgb
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp M.D.
Sent: Sat 2/27/2010 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Yes. The prudent pilot will always pull blades before starting this engine.
doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francois Davel
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:47 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Hi there Larry, point taken, but the less oil you have the less is the
chance for the LOCK.
I am not sure and hopefully there is wisdom on this list that can answer the
question:
Is there enough oil in the upper part of the engine that could drain into
the lower cylinders, to cause a hydraulic lock?
Cheers
Francois
--------
Round Engines RULE!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288477#288477
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Guys
I have followed this discussion as it refers to our clean kit
components.
First, to be clear, we developed this items for the model 12. Using
them on yaks and cj aircraft among others is being done as well.
Our "system" includes 3 parts:
Shut off valve
Scavenge pump
Intake drains
Full benefit is realized only if installing and properly using all 3.
Example operational use:
Prior to start, intake drain is open left this way from previous shut
down program. Leave it open. Check mags off pull prop through 3 revs.
Close drain complete typical prefight checks. Prime engine. Open oil
shut off valve via cockpit control cable. Start engine and go fly.
After landing and at shut down area, kill engine as normal. Pull cable
to close shut off valve. Turn on scab pump and run until it skips.
This eturns the sump oil to the tank above the now close oil valve.
Exit aircraft as normal. Open intake drain. Store airplane.
Repeat for every flight.
We have all of these components in service now more than 10 years.
Some with 700 plus hours in service. We fly the model 12 to advanced
and unlimited level acro and have never failed one of these parts,
sump fitting, oil tank bung, etc.
Sent from my iPhone sitting in Carabas Italian grill.
Kevin kimball
Jim kimball enterprises, Inc.
On Feb 27, 2010, at 5:51 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Yes?
>
> My answer would be that it is very hard to tell what oil comes from
> the top of the engine and what oil has leaked through a poorly
> seated ball check valve.
>
> If you have a oil shut off valve, and turn it off immediately after
> you land, ... along with a lower sump pump.... I would be curious to
> know how much oil came out of ANYTHING... plugs, sump, you name
> it... after landing, turning off the valve, using the sump pump,
> letting it sit for a MONTH and then coming back to see exactly how
> much is in it.
>
> My few experiences with engines set up like this is ... nothing.
> Less than maybe a few ounces. NONE in the cylinders. NONE!
>
> However, without having these devices, it is very very possible to
> have an engine hyd. lock even in 15 minutes to 30 minutes, with the
> right conditions, as was mentioned.
>
> You also must pull it through ... as was mentioned.
>
> But the few engines I have had experience with that had both a sump
> pump and a shut-off valve, that were used directly after shutdown,
> have never had a drop of oil come out of ANYPLACE a month after just
> sitting there.
>
> I guess if you had cracked rings and stacked rings, the oil could
> just run down right into the cylinder it might be possible.
>
> Bottom line it becomes a moot debate, or discussion. If you don't
> have the sump pump and you don't have the oil shut off valve, ...
> the amount of oil that gets into cylinders on exactly what engine
> and exactly after so many minutes, is going to vary from one engine
> to another and there is no way to predict exactly how much.
>
> mgb
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Roger Kemp M.D.
> Sent: Sat 2/27/2010 9:00 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>
>
> >
>
> Yes. The prudent pilot will always pull blades before starting this
> engine.
> doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francois
> Davel
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:47 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>
> <fdavel@senninger.com>
>
> Hi there Larry, point taken, but the less oil you have the less is the
> chance for the LOCK.
>
> I am not sure and hopefully there is wisdom on this list that can
> answer the
> question:
>
> Is there enough oil in the upper part of the engine that could drain
> into
> the lower cylinders, to cause a hydraulic lock?
>
> Cheers
>
> Francois
>
> --------
> Round Engines RULE!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288477#288477
>
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Rick,
I was trained never to pull the prop thru when the engine is warm??
Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: <rick@rvairshows.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>
> And pull it through even after a fifteen minute fuel stop. You will also
> occasionally get a lock five hours after a run on a hot day, that requires
> pulling bottom spark plugs to clear.
> Rick Volker
> ------Original Message------
> From: Roger Kemp M.D.
> Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
> Sent: Feb 27, 2010 9:00 AM
>
> <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Yes. The prudent pilot will always pull blades before starting this
> engine.
> doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francois Davel
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:47 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>
>
> Hi there Larry, point taken, but the less oil you have the less is the
> chance for the LOCK.
>
> I am not sure and hopefully there is wisdom on this list that can answer
> the
> question:
>
> Is there enough oil in the upper part of the engine that could drain into
> the lower cylinders, to cause a hydraulic lock?
>
> Cheers
>
> Francois
>
> --------
> Round Engines RULE!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288477#288477
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure |
Soooo .... moral of the story is don't hang any more weight on the oil tank than
you have you?
I was thinking of putting an ADC Oil Filter System in my YAK-55. On the fire wall
..... Anybody have experience with them?
Right now it's a 400HP stock engine.
Thanks!
William Halverson
+-----Original Message-----
+From: pilotdog57@aol.com [mailto:pilotdog57@aol.com]
+Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 02:35 PM
+To: yak-list@matronics.com
+Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure
+
+I had a similar situation with US 303 type hose to the oil tank being too stiff
and causing the area around the tank nipple to crack. Anything that helps transmit
force to the tank is a bad idea- using the softer Russian hose helped solve
the problem. Doug Zeissner
+Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
+
+-----Original Message-----
+From: Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com>
+Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:48:26
+To: yak-list@matronics.com<yak-list@matronics.com>
+Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure
+
+The welder was to come late yesterday after I left Ramona. I'll check
+with Vladimir. Thanks, B
+
+Sent from my iPhone
+
+On Feb 27, 2010, at 9:47 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
+
+> Blitz,
+> If you cannot repair yours I do have some new tanks in stock.
+>
+> I would think that a good welder could make a safe long lasting
+> repair. Especially if after the repair was done a reinforcement
+> plate was then welded over this area you would have a double repair,
+> and it would most likely last longer than you will even if you
+> reinstall the valve the same way you have it now. I think the
+> installation dwg which I got from Craig Payne called for the plate
+> to be installed.
+>
+> Doug
+>
+> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com>
+> wrote:
+> In the course of our M14P conversion, I decided yesterday to
+> repaint the oil tank. As we began to remove the oil shutoff valve, a
+> 2" crack appeared in the oil tank adjacent to the blue AN coupling
+> between the valve and the tank. In the picture below, note the thin
+> stream of oil running just aft of the coupling.
+>
+> It would appear that over time the vibration of the valve's mass
+> using the coupling as a lever fractured the thin aluminum wall of
+> the tank. When first installed, the valve should have been secured
+> to the firewall to inhibit the resulting harmonic. If you have this
+> installation, check it.
+>
+> We got lucky yesterday, and we've decided not to reinstall the
+> valve. ...Blitz
+>
+>
+>
+>
+>
+>
+> Sent from my iPhone
+>
+> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
+>
+> ==========
+> igator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
+> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List</a>
+> ==========
+> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
+> </a>
+> ==========
+> le, List Admin.
+> tribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
+> </a>
+> ==========
+>
+> </b></font></pre>
+>
+>
+>
+>
+
+
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure |
I've had a 10 micron Marion filter on my airplane for some 1600 hours. It
saved my HS6 engine and has been on my M-14p its entire life. A hose fro
m the pump to the filter and than to the oil cooler, keeps the entire syst
em clean. I mounted the filter on a bracket I designed to fit on the fire
wall. It WILL SAVE YOUR ENGINE. If you do anything at all, put the filte
r on first.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: William Halverson <william@netpros.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 9:18 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure
oooo .... moral of the story is don't hang any more weight on the oil ta
nk
han you have you?
I was thinking of putting an ADC Oil Filter System in my YAK-55. On the
fire
all ..... Anybody have experience with them?
Right now it's a 400HP stock engine.
Thanks!
illiam Halverson
-----Original Message-----
From: pilotdog57@aol.com [mailto:pilotdog57@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 02:35 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure
I had a similar situation with US 303 type hose to the oil tank being too
stiff
nd causing the area around the tank nipple to crack. Anything that helps
ransmit force to the tank is a bad idea- using the softer Russian hose hel
ped
olve the problem. Doug Zeissner
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Oil Shutoff Valve Chapter 2 Serious Failure
The welder was to come late yesterday after I left Ramona. I'll check
with Vladimir. Thanks, B
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 27, 2010, at 9:47 AM, doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Blitz,
> If you cannot repair yours I do have some new tanks in stock.
>
> I would think that a good welder could make a safe long lasting
> repair. Especially if after the repair was done a reinforcement
> plate was then welded over this area you would have a double repair,
> and it would most likely last longer than you will even if you
> reinstall the valve the same way you have it now. I think the
> installation dwg which I got from Craig Payne called for the plate
> to be installed.
>
> Doug
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> In the course of our M14P conversion, I decided yesterday to
> repaint the oil tank. As we began to remove the oil shutoff valve, a
> 2" crack appeared in the oil tank adjacent to the blue AN coupling
> between the valve and the tank. In the picture below, note the thin
> stream of oil running just aft of the coupling.
>
> It would appear that over time the vibration of the valve's mass
> using the coupling as a lever fractured the thin aluminum wall of
> the tank. When first installed, the valve should have been secured
> to the firewall to inhibit the resulting harmonic. If you have this
> installation, check it.
>
> We got lucky yesterday, and we've decided not to reinstall the
> valve. ...Blitz
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> ==========
> igator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Ya
k-List
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List</a>
> ==========
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.c
om
> </a>
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> tribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http
://www.matronics.com/contribution
+> </a>
> ==========
>
> </b></font></pre>
>
>
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========================
===========
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-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
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-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
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Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
That's only when it's very recently shut down. I had heard the reason
was to avoid scoring the cylinders, but the primary reason is so it
doesn't fire on you. Fifteen minutes is long enough.
On Feb 27, 2010, at 8:58 PM, Martin (Home) wrote:
> >
>
> Rick,
>
> I was trained never to pull the prop thru when the engine is warm??
>
> Martin
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <rick@rvairshows.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>
>
>>
>> And pull it through even after a fifteen minute fuel stop. You will
>> also occasionally get a lock five hours after a run on a hot day,
>> that requires pulling bottom spark plugs to clear.
>> Rick Volker
>> ------Original Message------
>> From: Roger Kemp M.D.
>> Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>> Sent: Feb 27, 2010 9:00 AM
>>
>> >
>>
>> Yes. The prudent pilot will always pull blades before starting this
>> engine.
>> doc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francois
>> Davel
>> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:47 AM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>
>> >
>>
>> Hi there Larry, point taken, but the less oil you have the less is
>> the
>> chance for the LOCK.
>>
>> I am not sure and hopefully there is wisdom on this list that can
>> answer the
>> question:
>>
>> Is there enough oil in the upper part of the engine that could
>> drain into
>> the lower cylinders, to cause a hydraulic lock?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Francois
>>
>> --------
>> Round Engines RULE!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288477#288477
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Martin,
There is a CHT below which it is safe to move the prop. I use 250 degrees F
. After a 15 minute fuel stop, you are always well below that, especially if
you have used proper shut-down procedure.
Rick Volker
On Feb 27, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Eric Wobschall wrote:
>
> That's only when it's very recently shut down. I had heard the reason was to
avoid scoring the cylinders, but the primary reason is so it doesn't fire on you.
Fifteen minutes is long enough.
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2010, at 8:58 PM, Martin (Home) wrote:
>
>>
>> Rick,
>>
>> I was trained never to pull the prop thru when the engine is warm??
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <rick@rvairshows.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>
>>
>>>
>>> And pull it through even after a fifteen minute fuel stop. You will also occasionally
get a lock five hours after a run on a hot day, that requires pulling
bottom spark plugs to clear.
>>> Rick Volker
>>> ------Original Message------
>>> From: Roger Kemp M.D.
>>> Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>> Sent: Feb 27, 2010 9:00 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. The prudent pilot will always pull blades before starting this engine.
>>> doc
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francois Davel
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:47 AM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi there Larry, point taken, but the less oil you have the less is the
>>> chance for the LOCK.
>>>
>>> I am not sure and hopefully there is wisdom on this list that can answer the
>>> question:
>>>
>>> Is there enough oil in the upper part of the engine that could drain into
>>> the lower cylinders, to cause a hydraulic lock?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Francois
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Round Engines RULE!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288477#288477
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
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