Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:55 AM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (Mozam)
2. 07:03 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 03/09/10 (Barry Hancock)
3. 11:30 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 03/09/10 (LawnDart)
4. 11:41 AM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
5. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (T A LEWIS)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas |
Just my two cents for what it's worth:
In years past, I burned a lot of mogas in my -52TW, hundreds of hours. It ran better
(lower fuel flow on JPI for same cruise power setting and cleaner plugs)
than on 100LL.
Then they started putting ethanol in it and never told anyone. I could tell no
difference in how it ran, but my fuel gauges quit working. I found that by draining
the tanks and refilling with 100LL they would then work fine. After doing
this several times was when I discovered the addition of ethanol into the mogas.
The fuel gauges are capacitance type probes and it appeared that the ethanol screwed
up the probes ability to measure the quantity. I *think* these type probes
are very sensitive to the slightest amount of water and that could have been
introduced because of the ethanol. Anyway, they work fine on real mogas or 100LL,
but not with any ethanol present.
Keith, I agree, I can tell a difference with MMO in the 100LL. Spark plugs foul
up much quicker at idle on the ground without MMO.
I sure wish I could buy ethanol-free mogas here in Maryland. Even boat marinas
around here have ethanol in their gas. :(
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289898#289898
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 03/09/10 |
Guys,
Not to beat a dead horse, but how difficult is it to trim your messages
and not just lazily hit reply and include a ton of extraneous info (like
I just did as an example) that all of us "Digest" guys have to sort
through? It's just poor list etiquette...
Beyond that...it costs storage space on the server (which translates to
$$$ for the host). =46rom the usage guidelines:
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
My guess is that YOU get pretty upset when some Sunday flier keys the
mic at a busy airport and says "Uhhhhhhhh, this is,uhhhh, Three Niner
Three Echooooooo....we're, uhhhh, on the 45.....uhhhh....about three
miles from, uh, entering the downwind......and, uhhhh, we'll be
landing....uhhhh...hey Jerry, you there?....."
Well, that's exactly what untrimmed posts are to this list! ;)
Thanks in advance from all of us.
Bdog
On Mar 9, 2010, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
> *
>
> ========================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
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>
> Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the
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formatted
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Indexes
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> HTML Version:
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http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&C
hapter 10-03-09&Archive=Yak
>
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apter 10-03-09&Archive=Yak
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> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Yak-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 03/09/10: 19
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 04:37 AM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
> 2. 05:05 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (Eric
Wobschall)
> 3. 06:57 AM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
> 4. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
(vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
> 5. 07:09 AM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
> 6. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (Mark Davis)
> 7. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (T A LEWIS)
> 8. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (Roger Kemp
M.D.)
> 9. 01:30 PM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
> 10. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
(vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
> 11. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 12. 03:21 PM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
> 13. 05:02 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (Sam Sax)
> 14. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
> 15. 07:31 PM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (bill wade)
> 16. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (KingCJ6@aol.com)
> 17. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
> 18. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (cjpilot710@AOL.COM)
> 19. 10:05 PM - Fuel pump parts (Tom Elliott)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:37:50 AM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
> From: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
>
>
> A consideration for Mogas containing ethanol might be to use Marine
Stabil.
>
> http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx#marine_formula
>
> Comes out to about 6 cents per gallon to treat your fuel. I always use
2oz of
> MMO per 5 gal as well
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Keith
>
> --------
> Keith McKinley
> 700HS
> KFIT
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289767#289767
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:05:20 AM PST US
> From: Eric Wobschall <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
>
>
> Nice that it fights the hygroscopic effect of ethanol, but of course
> that doesn't keep it from eating seals, etc. Also, is spalling also
> an issue with ethanol? Apparently, the guys who use MoGas never use a
> version with ethanol, but I think that there can be a certain amount
> (<10%?) before they have to tell you about it. Around here (NE), it
> seems to always have it.
>
> MMO seems to at least be harmless. Not sure about that "vapor blast"
> thing that supposed to be happening. I know it's been used forever,
> but I'm not sanguine about something that has the word "mystery" in
> it's name.
>
> I worry about improvising things as long as the approved fuels are
> available. Of course, I appreciate the research and anecdotal reports,
> considering the likely demise of 100LL.
>
>
> On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:36 AM, keithmckinley wrote:
>
>>>
>>
>> A consideration for Mogas containing ethanol might be to use Marine
>> Stabil.
>>
>> http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx#marine_formula
>>
>> Comes out to about 6 cents per gallon to treat your fuel. I always
>> use 2oz of MMO per 5 gal as well
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> --------
>> Keith McKinley
>> 700HS
>> KFIT
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289767#289767
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:57:34 AM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
> From: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
>
>
> Radio,
>
> I sent you a PM with some info on Mogas in northern NEw England. Don;t
know where
> you are.
>
> Keith
>
> --------
> Keith McKinley
> 700HS
> KFIT
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289784#289784
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:57:40 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
> From: vectorwarbirds@aol.com
>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> If you will take some time to research the web concerning running
ethanol
> in aircraft you might find out the same thing we did. That almost
100%
> of aircraft hoses made in the last 15 years are alcohol proof. Our
long
> term testing on CJ rubber produced zero effects. Thats a year soaking
in
> it by the way. There are many university studies and many US aircraft
fl
> ying on it. even P&W 985's in AG service. I believe its a lot easier
and
> safer to research the smartest people in the USA doing the research
and
> try and understand their findings instead of just a bunch of opinions
on
> the List. Mine included. You probably know as well as I do that
100LL
> has been just a way to fleece the aviation world for years now, or why
wo
> uld the FAA issue STC's for using mogas in many US aircraft for so
many ye
> ars?
>
> But in the final analysis eariler we have been running mogas with and
with
> out E10 for years now in three CJs and one Yak 18T, not one single
problem
> ever. But as I said do some research for yourself.
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Wobschall <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:04 am
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
>
>
>
>
> Nice that it fights the hygroscopic effect of ethanol, but of course
that
> doesn't keep it from eating seals, etc. Also, is spalling also an
issue
> with ethanol? Apparently, the guys who use MoGas never use a version
with
> ethanol, but I think that there can be a certain amount (<10%?) before
th
> ey have to tell you about it. Around here (NE), it seems to always
have it
> .
>
> MMO seems to at least be harmless. Not sure about that "vapor blast"
thing
> that supposed to be happening. I know it's been used forever, but I'm
not
> sanguine about something that has the word "mystery" in it's name.
>
> I worry about improvising things as long as the approved fuels are
availab
> le. Of course, I appreciate the research and anecdotal reports,
considerin
> g the likely demise of 100LL.
>
> On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:36 AM, keithmckinley wrote:
>
> com> >
>>
>> A consideration for Mogas containing ethanol might be to use Marine >
St
> abil.
>>
>> http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx#marine_formula
>>
>> Comes out to about 6 cents per gallon to treat your fuel. I always >
use
> 2oz of MMO per 5 gal as well
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> --------
>> Keith McKinley
>> 700HS
>> KFIT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289767#289767
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ========================
> ============
> ========================
> ============
> ========================
> ============
> ========================
> ============
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:09:21 AM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
> From: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
>
>
> Gary,
>
> with your experience I have a couple questions:
>
> If you were letting the plane sit for longer than a month (as I do in
winter in
> New England) would you use any type of fuel stabilizer
>
> Do you use any additives, such as MMO. I use mmo all the time and
swear I can
> tell when It's not in my fuel.
>
> --------
> Keith McKinley
> 700HS
> KFIT
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289788#289788
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:10:06 AM PST US
> From: "Mark Davis" <mark@pld.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
>
>
> Most states don't have to disclose alcohol content in auto fuel unless
it is
> above 10%. The average consumer didn't know whether they could use
E-10 or
> not so they avoided buying it. Get a tester from EAA. They've gone
up to
> $18.00, but are probably worth it if you're going to burn MOGAS.
> http://www.eaa.org/autofuel/autogas/test_kit.asp
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Wobschall" <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 6:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
>
>
>>
>> Nice that it fights the hygroscopic effect of ethanol, but of course
that
>> doesn't keep it from eating seals, etc. Also, is spalling also an
issue
>> with ethanol? Apparently, the guys who use MoGas never use a version
with
>> ethanol, but I think that there can be a certain amount (<10%?)
before
>> they have to tell you about it. Around here (NE), it seems to always
have
>> it.
>>
>> MMO seems to at least be harmless. Not sure about that "vapor blast"
>> thing that supposed to be happening. I know it's been used forever,
but
>> I'm not sanguine about something that has the word "mystery" in it's
>> name.
>>
>> I worry about improvising things as long as the approved fuels are
>> available. Of course, I appreciate the research and anecdotal
reports,
>> considering the likely demise of 100LL.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:36 AM, keithmckinley wrote:
>>
>>> <keith.mckinley@townisp.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> A consideration for Mogas containing ethanol might be to use Marine
>>> Stabil.
>>>
>>> http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx#marine_formula
>>>
>>> Comes out to about 6 cents per gallon to treat your fuel. I always
use
>>> 2oz of MMO per 5 gal as well
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Keith McKinley
>>> 700HS
>>> KFIT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289767#289767
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:42:32 AM PST US
> From: T A LEWIS <talew@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
>
> I disagree with the 100 LL observation . I am sure you are correct
about th
> e hoses made in the USA . Did you test the- all of the Chinese and
Russia
> n rubber parts that are available for the CJ and theYAK ?=0AThe LL
in 100 L
> L is used for lubrication in the older engines that do not have
hardened va
> lve stems and seats. The STC's for mogas-are for use-in these modern
en
> gines or engines with this modification .-=0AThe suppliers of- 100
LL
> -have not found a suitable replacement for the lead that is not
harmful ,
> and is cost effective.-=0AI could be
wrong.=0ATerry-=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___
> _____________________________=0AFrom: "vectorwarbirds@aol.com"
<vectorwarbi
> rds@aol.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, March 9,
2010 9:55:4
> 4 AM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and
Mogas=0A=0AGentl
> emen,=0A=0AIf you will take some time to research the web
concerning runnin
> g ethanol in aircraft you might find out the same thing we did.- That
alm
> ost 100% of aircraft hoses made in the last 15 years are alcohol
proof.-
> Our long term testing on CJ rubber produced zero effects.- Thats a
year s
> oaking in it by the way.- There are many university studies and many
US a
> ircraft flying on it. even P&W 985's in AG service.- I believe its a
lot
> easier and safer to research the smartest people in the USA doing the
resea
> rch and try and understand their findings instead of just a bunch of
opinio
> ns on the List.- Mine included.- You probably know as well as I do
that
> 100LL has been just a way to fleece the aviation world for years now,
or w
> hy would the FAA issue STC's for using mogas in many US aircraft for
so man
> y years?- =0A=0ABut in the final analysis eariler we have been
running mo
> gas with and without E10 for years now in three CJs and one Yak 18T,
not on
> e single problem ever.- But as I said do some research for
yourself.=0A
> =0ATGB=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom:
Eric Wobschall <eri
> c@buffaloskyline.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue,
Mar 9, 2010
> 6:04 am=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and
Mogas=0A=0A
> -=0A-=0ANice that it fights the hygroscopic effect of ethanol, but
of c
> ourse that doesn't keep it from eating seals, etc. Also, is spalling
also a
> n issue with ethanol? Apparently, the guys who use MoGas never use a
versio
> n with ethanol, but I think that there can be a certain amount (<10%?)
befo
> re they have to tell you about it. Around here (NE), it seems to
always hav
> e it.-=0A-=0AMMO seems to at least be harmless. Not sure about
that "va
> por blast" thing that supposed to be happening. I know it's been used
forev
> er, but I'm not sanguine about something that has the word "mystery"
in it'
> s name.-=0A-=0AI worry about improvising things as long as the
approved
> fuels are available. Of course, I appreciate the research and
anecdotal re
> ports, considering the likely demise of 100LL.-=0A-=0AOn Mar 9,
2010, a
> t 7:36 AM, keithmckinley wrote:-=0A-=0A> --> Yak-List message
posted by
> : "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com> >-=0A>-=0A> A
considerat
> ion for Mogas containing ethanol might be to use Marine >
Stabil.-=0A>-
> =0A>
http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx#marine_formula-
> =0A>-=0A> Comes out to about 6 cents per gallon to treat your
fuel. I alw
> ays > use 2oz of MMO per 5 gal as well-=0A>-=0A>
Thoughts?-=0A>-=0A
>> Keith-=0A>-=0A> ---------=0A> Keith McKinley-=0A> 700HS-=0A>
KF
> IT-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A> Read this topic online
here:-=0A>
> -=0A> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289767#289767-=0
A>
> -=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A-=
0A
> ===========-=0Aget="_blank">http://www.matroni
cs.
> com/Navigator?Yak-List-=0A===============
> =====================-=0Attp
://
> forums.matronics.com-=0A================
> ====================-=0A"_blan
k">
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution-=0A==========
> ===============
>
> ________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:25:27 AM PST US
> From: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
>
>
> MMO is 2 chloro-benzene.
> Doc
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Wobschall
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 7:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
>
>
> Nice that it fights the hygroscopic effect of ethanol, but of course
> that doesn't keep it from eating seals, etc. Also, is spalling also
> an issue with ethanol? Apparently, the guys who use MoGas never use a
> version with ethanol, but I think that there can be a certain amount
> (<10%?) before they have to tell you about it. Around here (NE), it
> seems to always have it.
>
> MMO seems to at least be harmless. Not sure about that "vapor blast"
> thing that supposed to be happening. I know it's been used forever,
> but I'm not sanguine about something that has the word "mystery" in
> it's name.
>
> I worry about improvising things as long as the approved fuels are
> available. Of course, I appreciate the research and anecdotal reports,
> considering the likely demise of 100LL.
>
>
> On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:36 AM, keithmckinley wrote:
>
> <keith.mckinley@townisp.com
>>>
>>
>> A consideration for Mogas containing ethanol might be to use Marine
>> Stabil.
>>
>> http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx#marine_formula
>>
>> Comes out to about 6 cents per gallon to treat your fuel. I always
>> use 2oz of MMO per 5 gal as well
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> --------
>> Keith McKinley
>> 700HS
>> KFIT
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289767#289767
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 01:30:53 PM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
> From: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
>
>
> doc,
>
> I'm just wondering/curious about the significance of that post just
stating the
> chemical makeup of mmo.
>
> I have a chemistry degree and it still means nothing to me!
>
> As was mentioned before in a post "I like the smell"
>
> K
>
> --------
> Keith McKinley
> 700HS
> KFIT
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289829#289829
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:11:38 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
> From: vectorwarbirds@aol.com
>
>
> Keith,
>
> I do use MMO in the fuel, one quart to 100 gallons as that is what my
truc
> k fueler holds. I have not used any stabilizer as my AC does not sit
that
> long, But I would use it if it sat for much more than a month. But
of
> course always keeping it topped off.
>
> I can't imagine that MMO can hurt anything in the fuel and it seems to
wor
> k for us too but in the oil its another story. And I will relate my
findi
> ngs here. I once called a Phillips oil engineer to inquire about the
use
> of MMO in the oil, being its an old wives tale kind of thing. (I use
Phi
> llips 25/60XC year round). I won't belabor but in a nutshell he said
this
> "Do you think a gigantic oil company like Phillips would develop a
modern
> new aviation oil and then leave something out?" In other words never
put
> it in our oil.
>
> Guess who makes MMO now? Turtle Wax! I think I will go with the
Phillips
> recommendation!
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: keithmckinley <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:09 am
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
>
>
> m>
>
> Gary,
>
> with your experience I have a couple questions:
>
> If you were letting the plane sit for longer than a month (as I do in
wint
> er in
> New England) would you use any type of fuel stabilizer
>
> Do you use any additives, such as MMO. I use mmo all the time and
swear
> I can
> tell when It's not in my fuel.
>
> --------
> Keith McKinley
> 700HS
> KFIT
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289788#289788
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
> ========================
> ==========
> ========================
> ==========
> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:13:43 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Sorry to weigh in on this.
>
> But I see a difference. All that you described... One thing.
>
> Putting total off the street gooners into an aircraft and allowing
them
> to over-G the aircraft resulting in wings being yanked off .... trying
> to be Top Gun wanna-be's, quite another.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 2:48 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
> Every day of the year pilots are conducting Airshows FOR HIRE in
> experimental airplanes (including Yaks and Nanchangs).
> Several times each and every year our friends kill themselves doing
this
> commercial activity.
> Nobody ever bats an eye.
> Nobody ever says: Hey, that airshow activity is dangerous and kills
> people - should we be doing that?
>
> Why is that? I have always wondered.
>
> In the last year we (Yaks / CJS) have lost several of our friends to
> formation and aerobatic activity.
> Flying is risky. There were ten (10) fatalities in my business last
> year (2 takeoff, 2 formation, 1 acro, 5 weather).
> 2 more fatalities already this year (2 acro)
>
> I think it is valuable to apply the same passion for friends and
> aircraft regardless of the activity being conducted.
>
> TJ
>
>
> ---------------------------
> Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance, LLC
> 36 West Ocotillo Road, Phoenix, AZ 85013-1235
> Tel: 602-628-2701 or Toll Free: 866-475-9199
> E: tomjohnson@cox.net or Fax: 623-321-5843
> Free Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
> <http://www.airpowerinsurance.com/>
>
> * Privacy Information
> <http://www.airpowerinsurance.com/apower_privacy.pdf>
> ** NO insurance can be started or changed by email until confirmed in
> writing.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:21:35 PM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
> From: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
>
>
> Good stuff Bundini!
>
> Thanks for sharing all that info.
>
> Keith
>
> --------
> Keith McKinley
> 700HS
> KFIT
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289842#289842
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:02:15 PM PST US
> From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Do you know whether the GIBs asked for and received clearance from the
FAA to ride
> in the back (at the Show) or just did it and would have used the
"needed Observer"
> reasoning if questioned?
>
> Sam Sax
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: vectorwarbirds@aol.com
>
> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 12:08 PM
>
>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> Dragonman,
>
>
> I did 12 airshows last year, I saw a passenger in the back of a
performing aircraft
> at every single wavered show. I too wondered, but they are doing it
under
> the needed observer rational. I asked them. All where flying with
other aircraft
> in flybys or formation. The FAA was there as well. I suppose it all
goes
> along until something happens.
>
>
> Keep on draggin!
>
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Tom Elliott <N13472@aol.com>
>
>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 7, 2010 1:40 pm
>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> Tom, In the case being talked about they are going to be
> taking / charging people from the general population, adults and
children
> ( note lawyers
>
>
> love wrongful death suites involving children) for
> rides/aerobatics/combat in a hazardous environment. All of the
> activity you refer to involves
>
>
> owners, crew members. At what official Airshow ( wavered
> air space) have you seen passengers during a performance?
>
>
> Tom Elliott
>
> CJ-6A NX63727
>
> 702-595-2680
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> Johnson
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 11:48 AM
>
> Yak-List@matronics.com
>
> Subject: Yak-List: RE: Commercial
> use?
>
>
> Every day of the
> year pilots are conducting Airshows FOR HIRE in experimental
airplanes
> (including Yaks and Nanchangs).
>
>
> Several times each
> and every year our friends kill themselves doing this commercial
> activity.
>
>
> Nobody ever bats
> an eye.
>
>
> Nobody ever says:
> Hey, that airshow activity is dangerous and kills people - should we
be doing
>
> that?
>
>
> Why is that?
> I have always wondered.
>
>
> In the last year
> we (Yaks / CJS) have lost several of our friends to formation and
aerobatic
> activity.
>
>
> Flying is
> risky. There were ten (10) fatalities in my business last year (2
> takeoff, 2 formation, 1 acro, 5 weather).
>
>
> 2 more fatalities
> already this year (2 acro)
>
>
> I think it is
> valuable to apply the same passion for friends and aircraft
regardless of the
>
> activity being conducted.
>
>
> TJ
>
>
> ---------------------------
>
> Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance,
> LLC
>
>
> 36 West Ocotillo Road,
> Phoenix, AZ
> 85013-1235
>
>
> Tel:
> 602-628-2701 or Toll Free:
> 866-475-9199
>
> E: tomjohnson@cox.net or
> Fax: 623-321-5843
>
>
> Free Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
>
>
> * Privacy
> Information
>
>
> ** NO insurance can be started or
> changed by email until confirmed in writing.
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> ========================
>
> ator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
> ========================
>
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>
> ========================
>
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ========================
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:09:56 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
> From: vectorwarbirds@aol.com
>
>
> Hey Sam,
>
>> =46rom the two guys I talked to it was just "don't ask - don't
tell". Don'
> t say nothing until asked. The jet pilot said he has never been
questione
> d but if he was he would pull out the its 'a safety issue' gun. And I
can
> tell you why, every time we ask the FAA anything the answer is NO!
>
> Cheers!
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:01 pm
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
>
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Do you know whether the GIBs asked for and received clearance from the
FAA
> to
> ride in the back (at the Show) or just did it and would have used the
"nee
> ded
> Observer" reasoning if questioned?
>
> Sam Sax
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: vectorwarbirds@aol.com
>
> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 12:08 PM
>
>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> Dragonman,
>
>
> I did 12 airshows last year, I saw a passenger in the back of a
performing
>
> aircraft at every single wavered show. I too wondered, but they are
doing
> it
> under the needed observer rational. I asked them. All where flying
with
> other
> aircraft in flybys or formation. The FAA was there as well. I
suppose it
> all
> goes along until something happens.
>
>
> Keep on draggin!
>
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Tom Elliott <N13472@aol.com>
>
>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 7, 2010 1:40 pm
>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> Tom, In the case being talked about they are going to be
> taking / charging people from the general population, adults and
children
>
> ( note lawyers
>
>
> love wrongful death suites involving children) for
> rides/aerobatics/combat in a hazardous environment. All of the
> activity you refer to involves
>
>
> owners, crew members. At what official Airshow ( wavered
> air space) have you seen passengers during a performance?
>
>
> Tom Elliott
>
> CJ-6A NX63727
>
> 702-595-2680
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> Johnson
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 11:48 AM
>
> Yak-List@matronics.com
>
> Subject: Yak-List: RE: Commercial
> use?
>
>
> Every day of the
> year pilots are conducting Airshows FOR HIRE in experimental
airplanes
>
> (including Yaks and Nanchangs).
>
>
> Several times each
> and every year our friends kill themselves doing this commercial
> activity.
>
>
> Nobody ever bats
> an eye.
>
>
> Nobody ever says:
> Hey, that airshow activity is dangerous and kills people - should we
be
> doing
> that?
>
>
> Why is that?
> I have always wondered.
>
>
> In the last year
> we (Yaks / CJS) have lost several of our friends to formation and
aeroba
> tic
> activity.
>
>
> Flying is
> risky. There were ten (10) fatalities in my business last year (2
> takeoff, 2 formation, 1 acro, 5 weather).
>
>
> 2 more fatalities
> already this year (2 acro)
>
>
> I think it is
> valuable to apply the same passion for friends and aircraft
regardless
> of the
> activity being conducted.
>
>
> TJ
>
>
> ---------------------------
>
> Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance,
> LLC
>
>
> 36 West Ocotillo Road,
> Phoenix, AZ
> 85013-1235
>
>
> Tel:
> 602-628-2701 or Toll Free:
> 866-475-9199
>
> E: tomjohnson@cox.net or
> Fax: 623-321-5843
>
>
> Free Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
>
>
> * Privacy
> Information
>
>
> ** NO insurance can be started or
> changed by email until confirmed in writing.
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
> com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
> ator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
> ========================
> ==========
> ========================
> ==========
> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:31:56 PM PST US
> From: bill wade <bwade154@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
>
> Terry There may be a solution to the fuel problem. I've been following
this
> company for the last year and a halve seems to me if our government
doesnt
> stop them it could work.=0ABill Wade=0A-=0ASwift Renewable
Fuels=0AWelco
> me to the next generation of aviation fuels.=0AAccording to an EPA
press re
> lease, "Lead has been blended with gasoline, primarily to boost octane
leve
> ls, since the early 1920s. EPA began working to reduce lead emissions
soon
> after its inception, issuing the first reduction standards in 1973,
which c
> alled for a gradual phasedown of lead to one tenth of a gram per
gallon by
> 1986. The average lead content in gasoline in 1973 was 2-3 grams per
gallon
> or about 200,000 tons of lead a year. In 1975, passenger cars and
light tr
> ucks were manufactured with a more elaborate emission control system
which
> included a catalytic converter that required lead-free fuel. In 1995
leaded
> fuel accounted for only 0.6 percent of total gasoline sales and less
than
> 2,000 tons of lead per year. Effective January 1, 1996, the Clean Air
Act b
> anned the sale of the small amount of leaded fuel that was still
available
> in some parts of the country for use in on-road vehicles. EPA said
fuel con
> taining lead may continue to be sold for
> off-road uses, including aircraft, racing cars, farm equipment, and
marine
> engines." =0AReference: EPA press release=0ASwift has this
solution.=0AUnl
> ike the current process of refining crude oil to arrive at a final
fuel, we
> synthetically create hydrocarbons from bio-mass. This creation method
is s
> uperior to the existing refining method because we maintain control
over th
> e entire process giving us the flexibility to meet or exceed current
ASTM s
> pecifications. =0A=0AThe advantages of SwiftFuel are: =0A*
Seamless repl
> acement of 100LL (no engine modifications) =0A* 15% increase in
range ov
> er 100LL (no oxygenates) =0A* 20% drop in pollutants over the
current 10
> 0LL fuel =0A* 15% more volumetric energy than 100LL =0A* No need
for
> stabilizers or
additives=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF
> rom: T A LEWIS <talew@bellsouth.net>=0ATo:
yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: T
> ue, March 9, 2010 10:41:40 AM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re:
Nanchangs, Sun N
> Fun and Mogas=0A=0A=0AI disagree with the 100 LL observation . I
am sure y
> ou are correct about the hoses made in the USA . Did you test the- all
of
> the Chinese and Russian rubber parts that are available for the CJ and
the
> YAK ?=0AThe LL in 100 LL is used for lubrication in the older
engines that
> do not have hardened valve stems and seats. The STC's for mogas-are
for u
> se-in these modern engines or engines with this modification .-=0AThe
s
> uppliers of- 100 LL-have not found a suitable replacement for the lead
> that is not harmful , and is cost effective.-=0AI could be
wrong.=0ATerry
> -=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom:
"vectorwarbirds@
> aol.com" <vectorwarbirds@aol.com>=0ATo:
yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue,
> March 9, 2010 9:55:44 AM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun
N Fun
> and Mogas=0A=0AGentlemen,=0A=0AIf you will take some time to
research the
> web concerning running ethanol in aircraft you might find out the same
thin
> g we did.- That almost 100% of aircraft hoses made in the last 15
years a
> re alcohol proof.- Our long term testing on CJ rubber produced zero
effec
> ts.- Thats a year soaking in it by the way.- There are many university
> studies and many US aircraft flying on it. even P&W 985's in AG
service.-
> I believe its a lot easier and safer to research the smartest people
in th
> e USA doing the research and try and understand their findings instead
of j
> ust a bunch of opinions on the List.- Mine included.- You probably
know
> as well as I do that 100LL has been just a way to fleece the aviation
worl
> d for years now, or why would the FAA issue STC's for using mogas in
many U
> S aircraft for so many years?- =0A=0ABut in the final analysis
eariler we
> have been running mogas with and without E10 for years now in three
CJs an
> d one Yak 18T, not one single problem ever.- But as I said do some
resear
> ch for yourself.=0A=0ATGB=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original
Message-----=0AFrom:
> Eric Wobschall <eric@buffaloskyline.com>=0ATo:
yak-list@matronics.com=0ASen
> t: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:04 am=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs,
Sun N F
> uffaloskyline.com>-=0A-=0ANice that it fights the hygroscopic
effect of
> ethanol, but of course that doesn't keep it from eating seals, etc.
Also,
> is spalling also an issue with ethanol? Apparently, the guys who use
MoGas
> never use a version with ethanol, but I think that there can be a
certain a
> mount (<10%?) before they have to tell you about it. Around here (NE),
it s
> eems to always have it.-=0A-=0AMMO seems to at least be harmless.
Not s
> ure about that "vapor blast" thing that supposed to be happening. I
know it
> 's been used forever, but I'm not sanguine about something that has
the wor
> d "mystery" in it's name.-=0A-=0AI worry about improvising things
as lo
> ng as the approved fuels are available. Of course, I appreciate the
researc
> h and anecdotal reports, considering the likely demise of 100LL.-=0A-
> =0AOn Mar 9, 2010, at 7:36 AM, keithmckinley wrote:-=0A-=0A> -->
Yak-Li
> st message posted by: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
>-=0A>
> -=0A> A consideration for Mogas containing ethanol might be to use
Marine
>> Stabil.-=0A>-=0A>
http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.as
> px#marine_formula-=0A>-=0A> Comes out to about 6 cents per gallon
to tr
> eat your fuel. I always > use 2oz of MMO per 5 gal as well-=0A>-=0A>
Th
> oughts?-=0A>-=0A> Keith-=0A>-=0A> ---------=0A> Keith
McKinley-
> =0A> 700HS-=0A> KFIT-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A> Read this
topic o
> nline here:-=0A>-=0A>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289
> 767#289767-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A>-=0A
>
> -=0A>-=0A-=0A==================
> ==================-=0Aget="_blan
k">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List-=0A========
> ===-=0Attp://forums.matronics.com-=0A=========
> ==-=0A"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution-=0A===
> ========-=0A-=0A-=0A=0A =0Aist"
rel=nofollow targ
> et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-
href="http://www.matr
> -========================
> =============0A=0A=0A
>
> ________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:34:05 PM PST US
> From: KingCJ6@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
> I've participated in West coast shows under 3 different FSDO's
> jurisdiction. In all cases, the Fed's made it crystal clear in the
performer's
> brief
> that no GIB's would be tolerated ("we will be watching with
binoculars").
> This was even the case if the a/c was departing the area, during the
> wavered period, after the performance with a passenger.
>
> Could it be that the East is more liberal than the West??
>
> Dave
>
>
> In a message dated 3/9/2010 7:10:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> vectorwarbirds@aol.com writes:
>
> Hey Sam,
>
>> =46rom the two guys I talked to it was just "don't ask - don't
tell".
> Don't say nothing until asked. The jet pilot said he has never been
> questioned but if he was he would pull out the its 'a safety issue'
gun. And
> I can
> tell you why, every time we ask the FAA anything the answer is NO!
>
> Cheers!
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:01 pm
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> (mailto:cd001633@mindspring.com) >
>
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Do you know whether the GIBs asked for and received clearance from the
FAA
> to
> ride in the back (at the Show) or just did it and would have used the
> "needed
> Observer" reasoning if questioned?
>
> Sam Sax
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: _vectorwarbirds@aol.com_ (mailto:vectorwarbirds@aol.com)
>
> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 12:08 PM
>
> To: _yak-list@matronics.com_ (mailto:yak-list@matronics.com)
>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> Dragonman,
>
>
> I did 12 airshows last year, I saw a passenger in the back of a
performing
> aircraft at every single wavered show. I too wondered, but they are
doing
> it
> under the needed observer rational. I asked them. All where flying
with
> other
> aircraft in flybys or formation. The FAA was there as well. I
suppose it
> all
> goes along until something happens.
>
>
> Keep on draggin!
>
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Tom Elliott <_N13472@aol.com_ (mailto:N13472@aol.com) >
>
> To: _yak-list@matronics.com_ (mailto:yak-list@matronics.com)
>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 7, 2010 1:40 pm
>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> Tom, In the case being talked about they are going to be
> taking / charging people from the general population, adults and
children
> ( note lawyers
>
>
> love wrongful death suites involving children) for
> rides/aerobatics/combat in a hazardous environment. All of the
> activity you refer to involves
>
>
> owners, crew members. At what official Airshow ( wavered
> air space) have you seen passengers during a performance?
>
>
> Tom Elliott
>
> CJ-6A NX63727
>
> 702-595-2680
>
>
>
>
>
> From: _owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com_
> (mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com)
> [_mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com_
> (mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com?) ] On Behalf Of Tom
> Johnson
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 11:48 AM
>
> To:
> _Yak-List@matronics.com_ (mailto:Yak-List@matronics.com)
>
> Subject: Yak-List: RE: Commercial
> use?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Every day of the
> year pilots are conducting Airshows FOR HIRE in experimental
airplanes
> (including Yaks and Nanchangs).
>
>
> Several times each
> and every year our friends kill themselves doing this commercial
> activity.
>
>
> Nobody ever bats
> an eye.
>
>
> Nobody ever says:
> Hey, that airshow activity is dangerous and kills people - should we
be
> doing
> that?
>
>
>
>
>
> Why is that?
> I have always wondered.
>
>
>
>
>
> In the last year
> we (Yaks / CJS) have lost several of our friends to formation and
> aerobatic
> activity.
>
>
> Flying is
> risky. There were ten (10) fatalities in my business last year (2
> takeoff, 2 formation, 1 acro, 5 weather).
>
>
> 2 more fatalities
> already this year (2 acro)
>
>
>
>
>
> I think it is
> valuable to apply the same passion for friends and aircraft
regardless
> of the
> activity being conducted.
>
>
>
>
>
> TJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------
>
> Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance,
> LLC
>
>
> 36 West Ocotillo Road,
> Phoenix, AZ
> 85013-1235
>
>
> Tel:
> 602-628-2701 or Toll Free:
> 866-475-9199
>
> E: _tomjohnson@cox.net_ (mailto:tomjohnson@cox.net) or
> Fax: 623-321-5843
>
>
>
> Free Quote: _www.airpowerinsurance.com_
> (http://www.airpowerinsurance.com/)
>
>
>
> * Privacy
> Information
>
>
> ** NO insurance can be started or
> changed by email until confirmed in writing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List_
> (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List_
> (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
>
> href="_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
> ">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
>
> href="_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
> (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/c_
(http://www.matronics.com/c)
>
>
> ========================
>
> ator?Yak-List">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List_
> (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
>
> ========================
>
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>
> ========================
>
> ibution">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
> (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>
> ========================
>
>
> ========================
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
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> (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
> (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:48:21 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
> From: vectorwarbirds@aol.com
>
>
> Well I might add now that I think about it that these shows were all
at
> military bases and multiple aircraft flew at the same time. Who knows?
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: KingCJ6@aol.com
> Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:33 pm
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> I've participated in West coast shows under 3 different FSDO's
jurisdictio
> n. In all cases, the Fed's made it crystal clear in the performer's
brief
> that no GIB's would be tolerated ("we will be watching with
binoculars").
> This was even the case if the a/c was departing the area, during the
wav
> ered period, after the performance with a passenger.
>
> Could it be that the East is more liberal than the West??
>
> Dave
>
>
> In a message dated 3/9/2010 7:10:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
vectorwarb
> irds@aol.com writes:
>
> Hey Sam,
>
>> =46rom the two guys I talked to it was just "don't ask - don't
tell".
> Don't say nothing until asked. The jet pilot said he has never been
qu
> estioned but if he was he would pull out the its 'a safety issue'
gun.
> And I can tell you why, every time we ask the FAA anything the
answer
> is NO!
>
> Cheers!
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:01 pm
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
>
>
> Hi Gary,
>
>
> Do you know whether the GIBs asked for and received clearance from the
FAA
> to
>
> ride in the back (at the Show) or just did it and would have used the
"nee
> ded
>
> Observer" reasoning if questioned?
>
>
> Sam Sax
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: vectorwarbirds@aol.com
>
>
> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 12:08 PM
>
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> Dragonman,
>
>
> I did 12 airshows last year, I saw a passenger in the back of a
performing
>
>
> aircraft at every single wavered show. I too wondered, but they are
doing
> it
>
> under the needed observer rational. I asked them. All where flying
with
> other
>
> aircraft in flybys or formation. The FAA was there as well. I
suppose it
> all
>
> goes along until something happens.
>
>
> Keep on draggin!
>
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Tom Elliott <N13472@aol.com>
>
>
>
>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 7, 2010 1:40 pm
>
>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> Tom, In the case being talked about they are going to be
>
> taking / charging people from the general population, adults and
children
>
>
> ( note lawyers
>
>
> love wrongful death suites involving children) for
>
> rides/aerobatics/combat in a hazardous environment. All of the
>
> activity you refer to involves
>
>
> owners, crew members. At what official Airshow ( wavered
>
> air space) have you seen passengers during a performance?
>
>
> Tom Elliott
>
>
> CJ-6A NX63727
>
>
> 702-595-2680
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
>
> Johnson
>
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 11:48 AM
>
>
>
> Yak-List@matronics.com
>
>
> Subject: Yak-List: RE: Commercial
>
> use?
>
>
> Every day of the
>
> year pilots are conducting Airshows FOR HIRE in experimental
airplanes
>
>
> (including Yaks and Nanchangs).
>
>
> Several times each
>
> and every year our friends kill themselves doing this commercial
>
> activity.
>
>
> Nobody ever bats
>
> an eye.
>
>
> Nobody ever says:
>
> Hey, that airshow activity is dangerous and kills people - should we
be
> doing
>
> that?
>
>
> Why is that?
>
> I have always wondered.
>
>
> In the last year
>
> we (Yaks / CJS) have lost several of our friends to formation and
aeroba
> tic
>
> activity.
>
>
> Flying is
>
> risky. There were ten (10) fatalities in my business last year (2
>
> takeoff, 2 formation, 1 acro, 5 weather).
>
>
> 2 more fatalities
>
> already this year (2 acro)
>
>
> I think it is
>
> valuable to apply the same passion for friends and aircraft
regardless
> of the
>
> activity being conducted.
>
>
> TJ
>
>
> ---------------------------
>
>
> Thomas Johnson, Airpower Insurance,
>
> LLC
>
>
> 36 West Ocotillo Road,
>
> Phoenix, AZ
>
> 85013-1235
>
>
> Tel:
>
> 602-628-2701 or Toll Free:
>
> 866-475-9199
>
>
> E: tomjohnson@cox.net or
>
> Fax: 623-321-5843
>
>
> Free Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
>
>
> * Privacy
>
> Information
>
>
> ** NO insurance can be started or
>
> changed by email until confirmed in writing.
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.
> com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
> "_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?Yak-List
> ========================
> ==========
> ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> ========================
> ==========
>
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
> ========================
> ==========
> ========================
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> ========================
> ==========
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:12:18 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
> From: cjpilot710@AOL.COM
>
>
> At OSH, S&F and TICO (different FSDOs) it is always the same. NO
GIBs- ex
> cept,
>
> First time PIC in a formation, than a FAST rated GIB can sit there to
advi
> se.
> Mass lead can have a GIB who also a lead to help manage the flights
and ex
> tra eyes.
> Mass lead may have a GIB who will be checking out as a mass lead of
course
> he is a rated FAST lead..
> The airboss is very specific about GIBs during the general briefing,
and
> each and every case is cleared with the FAA observer right there.
>
> You can have GIB if you are departing during wavered airspace but can
not
> participate in the show ie you takeoff and leave. Plus you need to
clear
> that with airboss.
>
> Absolutely no girl friends, pastor, photographer, sponsors, other show
pil
> ots, line boys, etc etc.
>
> I have seen the FAA guy OK a active military pilot ride as observer.
>
> The only time GIBs has been allowed in a mass formation, in wavered
airspa
> ce is at OSH. On 'Warbird Arrival Day" all in bound warbirds arrive
at th
> e same time, during wavered airspace, the groups are allowed to have
GIBs
> at that time and no other.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: KingCJ6@aol.com
> Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:33 pm
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> I've participated in West coast shows under 3 different FSDO's
jurisdictio
> n. In all cases, the Fed's made it crystal clear in the performer's
brief
> that no GIB's would be tolerated ("we will be watching with
binoculars").
> This was even the case if the a/c was departing the area, during the
wav
> ered period, after the performance with a passenger.
>
> Could it be that the East is more liberal than the West??
>
> Dave
>
>
> In a message dated 3/9/2010 7:10:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
vectorwarb
> irds@aol.com writes:
>
> Hey Sam,
>
>> =46rom the two guys I talked to it was just "don't ask - don't
tell". Don
> 't say nothing until asked. The jet pilot said he has never been
question
> ed but if he was he would pull out the its 'a safety issue' gun. And
I ca
> n tell you why, every time we ask the FAA anything the answer is NO!
>
> Cheers!
>
> TGB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:01 pm
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
>
>
> i Gary,
>
>
> o you know whether the GIBs asked for and received clearance from the
FAA
> to
>
> ide in the back (at the Show) or just did it and would have used the
"need
> ed
>
> bserver" reasoning if questioned?
>
>
> am Sax
>
>
> ----Original Message-----
>
>
> rom: vectorwarbirds@aol.com
>
>
> ent: Mar 8, 2010 12:08 PM
>
>
> o: yak-list@matronics.com
>
>
> ubject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> Dragonman,
>
>
> did 12 airshows last year, I saw a passenger in the back of a
performing
>
>
> ircraft at every single wavered show. I too wondered, but they are
doing
> it
>
> nder the needed observer rational. I asked them. All where flying
with
> other
>
> ircraft in flybys or formation. The FAA was there as well. I suppose
it
> all
>
> oes along until something happens.
>
>
> eep on draggin!
>
>
> GB
>
>
> ----Original Message-----
>
>
> rom: Tom Elliott <N13472@aol.com>
>
>
> o: yak-list@matronics.com
>
>
> ent: Sun, Mar 7, 2010 1:40 pm
>
>
> ubject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Commercial use?
>
>
> om, In the case being talked about they are going to be
>
> aking / charging people from the general population, adults and
children
>
>
> note lawyers
>
>
> ove wrongful death suites involving children) for
>
> ides/aerobatics/combat in a hazardous environment. All of the
>
> ctivity you refer to involves
>
>
> wners, crew members. At what official Airshow ( wavered
>
> ir space) have you seen passengers during a performance?
>
>
> om Elliott
>
>
> J-6A NX63727
>
>
> 02-595-2680
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
>
> Johnson
>
>
> ent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 11:48 AM
>
>
> o:
>
> Yak-List@matronics.com
>
>
> ubject: Yak-List: RE: Commercial
>
> use?
>
>
> very day of the
>
> year pilots are conducting Airshows FOR HIRE in experimental airplanes
>
> (including Yaks and Nanchangs).
>
>
> everal times each
>
> and every year our friends kill themselves doing this commercial
>
> activity.
>
>
> obody ever bats
>
> an eye.
>
>
> obody ever says:
>
> Hey, that airshow activity is dangerous and kills people - should we
be
> doing
>
> that?
>
>
> hy is that?
>
> I have always wondered.
>
>
> n the last year
>
> we (Yaks / CJS) have lost several of our friends to formation and
aerobat
> ic
>
> activity.
>
>
> lying is
>
> risky. There were ten (10) fatalities in my business last year (2
>
> takeoff, 2 formation, 1 acro, 5 weather).
>
>
> more fatalities
>
> already this year (2 acro)
>
>
> think it is
>
> valuable to apply the same passion for friends and aircraft regardless
of
> the
>
> activity being conducted.
>
>
> J
>
>
> --------------------------
>
>
> homas Johnson, Airpower Insurance,
>
> LLC
>
>
> 6 West Ocotillo Road,
>
> Phoenix, AZ
>
> 85013-1235
>
>
> el:
>
> 602-628-2701 or Toll Free:
>
> 866-475-9199
>
>
> : tomjohnson@cox.net or
>
> Fax: 623-321-5843
>
>
> ree Quote: www.airpowerinsurance.com
>
>
> Privacy
>
> Information
>
>
> * NO insurance can be started or
>
> changed by email until confirmed in writing.
>
>
>
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.c
> om/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
> ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> ========================
>
>
> tor?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
> ========================
>
>
> tp://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ========================
>
>
> bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> ========================
>
>
> ========================
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
> ========================
>
> tp://forums.matronics.com
>
> ========================
>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ========================
>
>
> ========================
> ==========
>
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Nav
> igator?Yak-List
> ========================
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> ========================
>
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ========================
>
>
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>
> ________________________________ Message 19
____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:05:58 PM PST US
> From: "Tom Elliott" <N13472@aol.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Fuel pump parts
>
>
> To ALL! I am looking for the two rubber seals that go on the fuel pump
shaft
> for a stock 285 hp Housi?
> I have already tried Doug Sapp. Any one know where I can get these?
>
> Thank You
> Tom Elliott
> CJ-6A NX63727
> 702-595-2680
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 03/09/10 |
LOL!
[quote="barryhancock"]Guys,
Not to beat a dead horse, but how difficult is it to trim your messages and not
just lazily hit reply and include a ton of extraneous info (like I just did as
an example) that all of us "Digest" guys have to sort through? It's just poor
list etiquette...
Beyond that...it costs storage space on the server (which translates to $$$ for
the host). From the usage guidelines:
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
My guess is that YOU get pretty upset when some Sunday flier keys the mic at a
busy airport and says "Uhhhhhhhh, this is,uhhhh, Three Niner Three Echooooooo....we're,
uhhhh, on the 45.....uhhhh....about three miles from, uh, entering the
downwind......and, uhhhh, we'll be landing....uhhhh...hey Jerry, you there?....."
Well, that's exactly what untrimmed posts are to this list! ;)
Thanks in advance from all of us.
Bdog
On Mar 9, 2010, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:
[quote]*
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
[url=http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-03-09&Archive=Yak]http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-03-09&Archive=Yak[/url]
Text Version:
[url=http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 10-03-09&Archive=Yak]http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 10-03-09&Archive=Yak[/url]
======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
======================
----------------------------------------------------------
Yak-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Tue 03/09/10: 19
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:37 AM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
2. 05:05 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (Eric Wobschall)
3. 06:57 AM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
4. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (vectorwarbirds@aol.com
([email]vectorwarbirds@aol.com[/email]))
5. 07:09 AM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
6. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (Mark Davis)
7. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (T A LEWIS)
8. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (Roger Kemp M.D.)
9. 01:30 PM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
10. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (vectorwarbirds@aol.com
([email]vectorwarbirds@aol.com[/email]))
11. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
Point, MALS-14 64E)
12. 03:21 PM - Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (keithmckinley)
13. 05:02 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (Sam Sax)
14. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (vectorwarbirds@aol.com ([email]vectorwarbirds@aol.com[/email]))
15. 07:31 PM - Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas (bill wade)
16. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (KingCJ6@aol.com ([email]KingCJ6@aol.com[/email]))
17. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (vectorwarbirds@aol.com ([email]vectorwarbirds@aol.com[/email]))
18. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Commercial use? (cjpilot710@AOL.COM ([email]cjpilot710@AOL.COM[/email]))
19. 10:05 PM - Fuel pump parts (Tom Elliott)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 04:37:50 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
From: "keithmckinley"
A consideration for Mogas containing ethanol might be to use Marine Stabil.
[url=http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx#marine_formula]http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx#marine_formula[/url]
Comes out to about 6 cents per gallon to treat your fuel. I always use 2oz of
MMO per 5 gal as well
Thoughts?
Keith
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289767#289767
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 05:05:20 AM PST US
From: Eric Wobschall
Subject: Re: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
Nice that it fights the hygroscopic effect of ethanol, but of course
that doesn't keep it from eating seals, etc. Also, is spalling also
an issue with ethanol? Apparently, the guys who use MoGas never use a
version with ethanol, but I think that there can be a certain amount
(
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289931#289931
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas |
This is an excellent thread! With oil on the rise and aircraft capable of running
on lower octane fuels it is worth well worth the discussion.
My own use of Mo-gas has consisted of running ethanol free fuel from Canada (I'd
do this all day long if I could easily get it) and occasionally buying 10 gallons
or so of E10 from the local pump to mix with 100LL. I've always felt comfortable
with the E10 especially since I never mixed more than 50-50. My concerns
about running straight loads of E10 would involve the "staleness" of the fuel
after a week or so and phase separation. The latter being the most worrisome
to me until I read the attached letter. That said, my biggest concern running
straight E10 Mo-gas would still be that issue. In an earlier post I had thrown
out the possibility of adding the marine formulation of Stabil. I MAY have
read this prevents phase separation but I have yet to see actual data supporting
it. There are, however, other additives that do have supporting data that
suggests they will prevent phase separation.
Additionally, as one poster suggested I am also concerned about the lack of lead
and my valves.
My 100 or so hours a year would translate into 1200-1500 dollars give or take in
saving vs 100LL. For my piece of mind I'd rather get the ethanol free fuel when
I can and continue to do my occasional 5-10 gallons of E10 than go straight
E-10 Mo-gas.
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289937#289937
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/waterphs_155.pdf
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas |
----- Original Message ----
From: keithmckinley <keith.mckinley@townisp.com>
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:41:19 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchangs, Sun N Fun and Mogas
This is an excellent thread! With oil on the rise and aircraft capable of running
on lower octane fuels it is worth well worth the discussion.
My own use of Mo-gas has consisted of running ethanol free fuel from Canada (I'd
do this all day long if I could easily get it) and occasionally buying 10 gallons
or so of E10 from the local pump to mix with 100LL. I've always felt comfortable
with the E10 especially since I never mixed more than 50-50. My concerns
about running straight loads of E10 would involve the "staleness" of the fuel
after a week or so and phase separation. The latter being the most worrisome
to me until I read the attached letter. That said, my biggest concern running
straight E10 Mo-gas would still be that issue. In an earlier post I had thrown
out the possibility of adding the marine formulation of Stabil. I MAY have
read this prevents phase separation but I have yet to see actual data supporting
it. There are, however, other additives that do have supporting data that
suggests they will prevent phase separation.
Additionally, as one poster suggested I am also concerned about the lack of lead
and my valves.
My 100 or so hours a year would translate into 1200-1500 dollars give or take in
saving vs 100LL. For my piece of mind I'd rather get the ethanol free fuel when
I can and continue to do my occasional 5-10 gallons of E10 than go straight
E-10 Mo-gas.
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=289937#289937
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/waterphs_155.pdf
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