Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:18 AM - Problem Solved - Surging (bmiles)
2. 05:22 AM - Re: Problem Solved - Surging (Roger Kemp M.D.)
3. 05:33 AM - Re: Problem Solved - Surging (Eric Wobschall)
4. 05:33 AM - Re: Problem Solved - Surging (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 06:44 AM - Re: Fuel flow (barryhancock)
6. 08:02 AM - EAA Ch. 60 Fly-In Pancake Breakfast (Ken Brooks)
7. 10:23 AM - Re: Experimental Class (cjpilot710@aol.com)
8. 03:32 PM - Fw: Fuel Flow (Chris Wise)
9. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: Fuel flow (Chris Wise)
10. 04:22 PM - Re: fuel feed (Walter Lannon)
11. 04:41 PM - CJ vs Yak flapper valves (Jay McIntyre)
12. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Experimental Class (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
13. 06:11 PM - Re: Experimental Class (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
14. 07:51 PM - fuel feeds (Joe Howse)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Problem Solved - Surging |
Remember Me.....I have been chasing a surging problem on my CJ for months and months
to frustration....Well, I am here to say thanks to Doug Sapp, Marcus Bates
and my credit card, problem solved.
Marcus and I changed the Carburetor and boy my CJ runs faster than rum cake at
an AA meeting......Yippeee.
Thanks guys for helping...I would be lost without this Forum. Matt I haven't met
you but I owe you Jamaican White rum when I see ya.....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298267#298267
Message 2
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| Subject: | Problem Solved - Surging |
The question remains...what in the old carb was causing it? In my case it
was fuel line inner liner that FOD'd the finger fuel screen going into the
carb. CJ's don't have those as I understand. What was causing yours? Glad to
know buying a new carb and installing it helped but the real help in the
answer would be what was wrong with your old carb to cause the surging in
the first place.
Thanks for the update.
doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bmiles
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:18 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Problem Solved - Surging
Remember Me.....I have been chasing a surging problem on my CJ for months
and months to frustration....Well, I am here to say thanks to Doug Sapp,
Marcus Bates and my credit card, problem solved.
Marcus and I changed the Carburetor and boy my CJ runs faster than rum cake
at an AA meeting......Yippeee.
Thanks guys for helping...I would be lost without this Forum. Matt I
haven't met you but I owe you Jamaican White rum when I see ya.....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298267#298267
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Problem Solved - Surging |
In my case, I had a hose flapper on the carburetor fuel hose. Surged
half-way through the ground roll on takeoff. Quite an obstruction, was
surprising it flew pretty well otherwise. Always smart to inspect the
inside of those hoses before installing.
On May 20, 2010, at 8:18 AM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:
> >
>
> The question remains...what in the old carb was causing it? In my
> case it
> was fuel line inner liner that FOD'd the finger fuel screen going
> into the
> carb. CJ's don't have those as I understand. What was causing yours?
> Glad to
> know buying a new carb and installing it helped but the real help in
> the
> answer would be what was wrong with your old carb to cause the
> surging in
> the first place.
> Thanks for the update.
> doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bmiles
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:18 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Problem Solved - Surging
>
>
> Remember Me.....I have been chasing a surging problem on my CJ for
> months
> and months to frustration....Well, I am here to say thanks to Doug
> Sapp,
> Marcus Bates and my credit card, problem solved.
>
> Marcus and I changed the Carburetor and boy my CJ runs faster than
> rum cake
> at an AA meeting......Yippeee.
>
> Thanks guys for helping...I would be lost without this Forum. Matt I
> haven't met you but I owe you Jamaican White rum when I see ya.....
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298267#298267
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Problem Solved - Surging |
Possibly a crack in the diaphragm? It would be interesting to see if
the diaphragm is in good shape. Not too difficult to check either.
Just a whole bunch of 7/8 mm bolts to remove.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Kemp M.D.
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 7:18 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Problem Solved - Surging
<viperdoc@mindspring.com>
The question remains...what in the old carb was causing it? In my case
it
was fuel line inner liner that FOD'd the finger fuel screen going into
the
carb. CJ's don't have those as I understand. What was causing yours?
Glad to
know buying a new carb and installing it helped but the real help in
the
answer would be what was wrong with your old carb to cause the surging
in
the first place.
Thanks for the update.
doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bmiles
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:18 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Problem Solved - Surging
Remember Me.....I have been chasing a surging problem on my CJ for
months
and months to frustration....Well, I am here to say thanks to Doug
Sapp,
Marcus Bates and my credit card, problem solved.
Marcus and I changed the Carburetor and boy my CJ runs faster than rum
cake
at an AA meeting......Yippeee.
Thanks guys for helping...I would be lost without this Forum. Matt I
haven't met you but I owe you Jamaican White rum when I see ya.....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298267#298267
Message 5
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I have 3 axis electric trim on my plane and don't have fuel imbalance issues.
With the M-14P and 74 gallons of fuel in my bird, it's been well worth it to be
able to trim hands off straight and level at any weight and airspeed.
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
(909) 606-4444
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298291#298291
Message 6
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| Subject: | EAA Ch. 60 Fly-In Pancake Breakfast |
If you're in the neighborhood of the Illinois-Wisconsin state line
this Saturday, May 22nd, stop in for EAA Ch. 60's annual Spring Fling
Pancake Breakfast, Fly-In and Auto Show, located at the Beloit, WI
Airport (44C). We'll serve breakfast from 7 -11 and the weather
forecast is great... sunny and a low of 60 in the morning and high of
78! To check the latest conditions, go to
http://web.me.com/chapter60/eaa/Fly-In_Weather.html
PIC of fly-in aircraft eat free, of course!
Otherwise, Adults $6.00
Kids 5 - 11 $4.00
4 and under eat free!
Do Not Archive
Ken Brooks, Ch. 60 Secretary
Slowest RV-8 Quickbuild in the Country (1997)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Class |
Good questions Mark.
My speculations would be:
1. If the engine installed has no modifications what so ever done, than it
s treated like a certified engine.
That would mean a annual inspection by an IA and mainte
nance plus inspections per the manufacture.
2. Any engine that has never been certified OR a certified engine that has
had a modification done, would be considered "Experimental".
However a call to either the EAA or FSDO guys would more likely give you
a better answer than mine.
I know I put a Lyc 360 with no mods in my Pitts S1C, I built. The FAA nev
er said one word about the engine. The whole airplane was "Experimental"
as far as they were concern. As we all know "interpretation" is not an
FAA norm.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlic
h@navy.mil>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2010 7:54 pm
Subject: Yak-List: Experimental Class
ALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
A question for the legal Eagles out there. I have been told that if an
xperimental Aircraft has a "Certified" engine type, then that engine is
equired to undergo all requirements that it normally would have were it
o be installed in a fully certified aircraft.
Ok... Then that brings up the question:
1. Is this true?
. If it is, then what makes an engine itself "Experimental" ??
I really do not quite understand this aspect....
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
rom: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ingCJ6@aol.com
ent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 1:33 AM
o: yak-list@matronics.com
The beauty of our "experimental" class!
Dave
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Message 8
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ivor Paech
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 6:58 PM
Subject: Fw: Fuel Flow
What is Walt's mod...?
Does he make the flapper valves more sensitive to gas level differences
?
Cheers,
Toof A & P ( for whom you started this dialogue and who has joined his
Yak 18T tank vents to a common outlet to no avail).
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Wise
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 8:59 AM
Subject: Fw: Fuel Flow
Chris Wise
GT Propellers Australia
__________________________________________________________
Tel. +61 415 195 095 Fax. +61 8 8326 7268
Email chris@gtpropellersaustralia.com.au
Website www.gtpropellersaustralia.com.au
The information transmitted in and with this email is intended only for
the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain
confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission,
dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon
this information, by persons or entities other than the intended
recipients is prohibited. If you received this transmission in error,
please contact the sender and delete this e-mail and associated material
from all computers and/or systems. The intended recipient of this e-mail
may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information
contained in this e-mail and any attached files, with the permission of
the sender.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Dumoret
Cc: Walt Lannon
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:42 AM
Subject: Fuel Flow
Hi Chris,
I have been reading your issue re uneven fuel flow. I have a CJ (2nd
one) and have had the problem with both CJ's. I ma on the same field as
Walt and had him do his mod on mine. He is dead right. He did a bunch of
coefficient of friction calcs I believe and it does make a lot of sense.
I used to tip my right wing up and feed in opposite rudder to start the
feed in the right tank - which worked - showing that it was not really
the vent. I just came back from an airshow in Cache Creek BC which is a
one hour flight and the fuel flow was even on both legs without any help
from me. His mod works like a damn. He did this mod on another CJ a few
years ago and it solved the problem on that one too.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Paul Dumoret
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
18:26:00
Message 9
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G'Day Barry,
Now that sounds like a go.
Please advise type of auto pilot and where you bought it.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
Chris Wise
GT Propellers Australia
__________________________________________________________
Tel. +61 415 195 095 Fax. +61 8 8326 7268
Email chris@gtpropellersaustralia.com.au
Website www.gtpropellersaustralia.com.au
The information transmitted in and with this email is intended only for the
person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential
and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or
other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information, by
persons or entities other than the intended recipients is prohibited. If you
received this transmission in error, please contact the sender and delete
this e-mail and associated material from all computers and/or systems. The
intended recipient of this e-mail may only use, reproduce, disclose or
distribute the information contained in this e-mail and any attached files,
with the permission of the sender.
----- Original Message -----
From: "barryhancock" <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:13 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Fuel flow
> <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
> I have 3 axis electric trim on my plane and don't have fuel imbalance
> issues. With the M-14P and 74 gallons of fuel in my bird, it's been well
> worth it to be able to trim hands off straight and level at any weight and
> airspeed.
>
> Barry
>
> --------
> Barry Hancock
> Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
> (909) 606-4444
> www.worldwidewarbirds.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298291#298291
>
>
>
Message 10
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Hi Sam;
Sorry for the delay. Got tied up with domestic duties.
Feed tank check valves: Their purpose is to maintain a constant supply of
fuel in the feed tank at all times and flight attitudes including
manouvering, turbulence, yaw, etc.
They should meet two operarational requirements;
First they should close securely enough to prevent return fuel flow to
either main tank. A very small amount of leakage may be acceptable but the
practice of file or hacksaw notching of the brass flapper or the valve body
face seriously degrades that function.
The flapper mating surface is not highly polished, some are fairly rough,
perhaps to eliminate the possibility of surface tension?
Second: They should open readily when fuel is drawn from the header tank.
Possibly both may be open at times with equal fuel in the tanks but I'm sure
one will close with the first yaw induced (ground turn) fuel movement.
Ideally they should alternately open and close with a small variation in
fuel quantity between the main tanks resulting in a close to equal quantity
in each tank throughout the flight. Flight loads on the fuel from
manouvering and turbulence will disrupt this ideal scenario but overall they
should remain fairly equal.
The original CJ valve design does not meet the latter part of this second
requirement. In fact it is the above disruptive fuel loads that keep them
working at all.
The reason for that is quite simple. The pressure on the opening side of
the flapper acts through a 1 cm hole in the valve body on an area of 0.785
cm/sq.(approx.)
The pressure on the closing side of the flapper is acting on
the entire flapper which is about 2 cm in diameter with an area of approx.
3.146 cm/sq.
If the fuel quantity in both tanks is equal the pressure on both sides of
the flapper is equal BUT the actual force applied to each side is no where
near. There is 4 times more closing force than opening due to the
difference in effective area.
If there was no such thing as yaw, turbulence, etc. a fuel imbalance of
approx. 50 liters would be necessary to open the valve. Assuming of course
that the vent system is 100 % serviceable.
My modification reworks the valve body seat (which is a flat surface larger
than the flapper) to a seating surface ring (approx. 0.5mm wide) around the
inlet hole.
This makes no change to the opening force but gives a drastic reduction in
the closing force because the fuel pressure from the opposing tank is now
acting on BOTH sides of the flapper thereby reducing the force differential
to near zero.
Zero would be perfect and would be obtainable with a line contact ring but
it is a hand filing operation and 0.5mm (0.020") is close enough.
Two other potential problems are eliminated by this mod. 1. I have seen (on
project CJ's) flapper valves virtually glued to the valve face. Had to soak
one in lacquer thinner to open. Probably due to residue from Chinese fuel.
2. Now you can polish the flapper and the body seat to zero leakage in the
closed position with no fear of "surface tension" sticking.
Have to add:------------ Somewhere along the way the Chinese have recognized
this problem and corrected it to some extent by replacing the flapper with
one that has a larger cut-out section in the seating side.
On the original flapper that cut-out was "as cast" simply to reduce the
valve weight and was smaller in dia. than the hole in the valve body.
The new flapper has a cut-out larger than the body hole which, by increasing
the effective area, increases the opening force. This is not as effective
as my mod. but will improve the operation.
I have some ideas re. applying my mod to this valve but would need to do a
prototype.
Walt.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Sax" <cd001633@mindspring.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: fuel feed
>
> Hi Walt,
>
> I may have missed something in reading your e-mail regarding the mod you
> did to the check valve - what was the mod? Was it roughing the flapper
> contacting surface? I heard in the past that doing so would preclude a
> "mechanical seal" of the very smooth mating surfaces.
>
> Also, regarding the vent drain on the bottom of center section (CJ6) -
> indeed a mud dubbers (South FL) would fill the vent with grass and ruin
> the day. To make the vent drain less hospitable to these critters, about
> 1/2" above vent bottom I drilled 2 holes, perpendicular to each other and
> inserted 2 cotter pins - creating an "X" cross section. This has worked
> for me thus far...
>
> Sam Sax
> Miami
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Walter Lannon
>
> Sent: May 19, 2010 5:56 PM
>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: feul feed
>
>
> Thanks Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From:
> A. Dennis Savarese
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 8:19
> AM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: feul feed
>
>
> Walt,
> I will see if I can scrounge up some photos of the fuel
> junction and flapper valves and send them to you off-list.
> Dennis
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | CJ vs Yak flapper valves |
Hi all... particularly Walt!
Not sure what the Yak-52 has, but the 1990's built Yak-3 that I am
rebuilding has exactly the same flapper valves in it's collector tank.... I
can't recall offhand, but I think they are larger in diameter to allow for
the vastly greater fuel flow requirements of the Allison!
Jay
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Class |
Ok.... So is the Lycoming GSO-480 engine in my Yugoslavian UTVA-66
CERTIFIED, or experimental? Do I need an IA to do the inspection on it,
or just an A&P? If it is in an experimental airplane, do I have to
comply with AD's issued for certified aircraft? What about the prop?
Phew!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 9:14 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Experimental Class
Depends on the Experimental category the aircraft is licensed in.
Once a engine is installed in a experimental amateur built it would need
to be re-inspected and certified by a approved shop/person/mfg to be
re-installed in a certified aircraft so that in itself tells you it does
not need to be maintained in a approved manner. If so the re-inspection
would not be needed. There are several categories of experimental
aircraft some do not require approved as in amateur built and some do as
in testing and certification category's. The phase 2 can be written in
such a way to indicate that requirement also. Depends on who writes it.
Lots of 10-1 pistons installed in engines that are not approved used in
lots of experimental aircraft with once certified engines. Ad's are not
issued "normally" on a homebuilt either.
And the AC43 is the only inspection guide required. The annual
inspection in not a airworthy endorsement. Only a scope and detail
inspection.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298241#298241
Message 13
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| Subject: | Experimental Class |
Pappy, thanks for taking the time to write back. I am very interested in your
perspective. I know this is off topic and I apologize to all, but I know the
people on this list that I trust and respect, so I come here when I need an expert
in an area that I know NOTHING about, and this is one of them.
My UTVA-66 has a GSO-480 Lycoming. However, as you mentioned with your Pitts,
the aircraft itself is Experimental. Experimental Exhibition of course. The
FAA has not said a word to me either, but I have to wonder!
My experience with the FSDO folks is that in many cases it is easier to just say
"no" than it is to go out on a limb and give a blessing on something they are
not sure of. In fact, my experience has been that you better know more than
they do when you ask them to do ANYTHING. But, I know that is unfair and many
FSDO's have wonderful folks. Let me just pause here and say that the FAA came
up running to me today... At the Cherry Point Airshow, when I took the door
off the UTVA-66 for the Combat Camera guys so they could get good video. Oh
my GOSH! FIVE OF THEM came up. Talk about being ganged up on! But in reality
they were really quite nice... Although they nailed me for my pilots license
not being signed (OMG!) and also.... And they got me dead cold to rights on this
one... I did not have the Pilots Operating Manual in the aircraft. Darn it.
I promised I would have it in there tomorrow and they said they would come
back and check it. Just for grins, I am going to br
ing them the UNTRANSLATED version written in Yugoslavian. Ought to be fun.
In any case, a lot of the CJ-6 guys are here too. -1, -2, -3 and -4 !!! I think
they want to gang up on my 50! Anyway, hope to be able to have the dogfight
so many want to see the result of! :-)
Anyway... Pappy, I still really am confused about this.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Experimental Class
Good questions Mark.
My speculations would be:
1. If the engine installed has no modifications what so ever done, than its treated
like a certified engine.
That would mean a annual inspection by an IA and maintenance
plus inspections per the manufacture.
2. Any engine that has never been certified OR a certified engine that has had
a modification done, would be considered "Experimental".
However a call to either the EAA or FSDO guys would more likely give you a better
answer than mine.
I know I put a Lyc 360 with no mods in my Pitts S1C, I built. The FAA never said
one word about the engine. The whole airplane was "Experimental" as far as
they were concern. As we all know "interpretation" is not an FAA norm.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2010 7:54 pm
Subject: Yak-List: Experimental Class
--> Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
A question for the legal Eagles out there. I have been told that if an Experimental
Aircraft has a "Certified" engine type, then that engine is required to
undergo all requirements that it normally would have were it to be installed in
a fully certified aircraft.
Ok... Then that brings up the question:
1. Is this true?
2. If it is, then what makes an engine itself "Experimental" ??
I really do not quite understand this aspect....
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of KingCJ6@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 1:33 AM
The beauty of our "experimental" class!
Dave
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Message 14
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What worked best for me was an electric trim tab on one aileron to help
me keep the wings level.on climb out.
Joe
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