---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/25/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 2. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Experimental Class (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 3. 10:51 AM - Your E-mail; please phone if you need an immediate response. (Cliff Magee) 4. 10:57 AM - Re: First Certification (racemech11) 5. 11:00 AM - Re: Fuel feed problem in a YAK-55 (racemech11) 6. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra (A. Dennis Savarese) 7. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 8. 12:59 PM - Experimental Class and more (Cpayne) 9. 01:00 PM - UTVA-66 (Jerry Painter) 10. 01:43 PM - Re: Experimental Class and more (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Ray, based on what I have learned, the Operating Limitations must be updated when you purchase the aircraft, because: 1. The new special airworthiness certificate needs to be in your name, which means it now has a new date. 2. The operating limitations must have a date on it that matches your special airworthiness certificate. You should have the previous airworthiness certificate and operating limitations from the previous owner on hand. The FAA does not have to have a record of ANYTHING. YOU HAVE THE RECORD IN YOUR HANDS! You make a copy and send it to them, they type up new ones and CHANGE NOTHING, and you're done. My unsolicited advice... You should NOT start all over again unless you have no copies of anything as well, and then you're toast. Again, if they lose them... That's their problem, not yours. IF YOU HAVE THEM, you just tell them to type them up. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jb92563 Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 5:54 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra I am also going through something similar with My Experimental Exhibition Motor Glider. When I bought the aircraft I moved it to a different FSDO's jurisdiction so i thought I had to update the Operating Limitations. The FAA fellows initial response was that he did not find any direction requiring me to do that. But I did find my special airwothiness cert and Op limitations date did not match and wanted to rectify the situation. I had SA Cert dated 1991 and Op Lim's dated 1993. I was informed that the FAA had no record of any of them in their archives since 1984! Did they conveniently loose all the unlimited special airworthy certs from Scottdale,AZ before archiving. ...jeez what the heck is going on! Called the AZ FSDO and they did not have them either. So now it looks like I will have to apply again. and go through the hassle all over, because nobody in the FAA knows much about self launch gliders (motor gliders) I did find it good to hear that the FAA can not arbitrarily change your Op Lims, but what if they lose them? Frustrated, Ray -------- Ray Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202) Moni MotorGlider Schreder HP-11 Glider Grob 109 Motorglider Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298776#298776 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Experimental Class From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Just went talking to a very good FAA Rep from another FSDO with over 20 years experience, and he agrees with what you just said. More on that conversation later. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of racemech11 Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 8:28 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Experimental Class Let me put my .02 cents worth in and it is just my understanding. I think, as you can see, there are many with an understanding and somewhere in them is the real truth. Be very careful with the way your operating limitations are written. Usually, if it is a certified product, such as an airframe, engine, prop, etc. and is moving into the experimental category, the limitations will state that the product will be maintained in accordance with Part 43. If this statement is included in your operating limitations, you are required to comply with A.D.'s (my understanding of this stuff.) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298795#298795 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:40 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Your E-mail; please phone if you need an immediate response. From: "Cliff Magee" Your e-mail generated this automated response. This auto response does not mean your e-mail arrived in whole or in part. It does mean that your e-mail or anything related, if received, is awaiting reading. We attempt to respond to all e-mails as quickly as possible. Please phone (866) 747-1747, (918) 747-1747 or (918) 629-3685 should you need immediate verification of a status, have immediate action taken or need any other type of immediate response. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:16 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: First Certification From: "racemech11" EAA Warbirds website, http://www.warbirds-eaa.org/forms/, has a three examples of Program Letters that may help. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298834#298834 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:30 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Fuel feed problem in a YAK-55 From: "racemech11" Anyone have a spare gauge? I only have one on the left side and would like to add one on the right. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298835#298835 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:30 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra Mark, FWIW, the Special Airworthiness Certificate or any Airworthiness Certificate for that matter is never in the name of any individual or corporation. The Certificate is issued for the airplane, not an individual. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:59 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra Point, MALS-14 64E" Ray, based on what I have learned, the Operating Limitations must be updated when you purchase the aircraft, because: 1. The new special airworthiness certificate needs to be in your name, which means it now has a new date. 2. The operating limitations must have a date on it that matches your special airworthiness certificate. You should have the previous airworthiness certificate and operating limitations from the previous owner on hand. The FAA does not have to have a record of ANYTHING. YOU HAVE THE RECORD IN YOUR HANDS! You make a copy and send it to them, they type up new ones and CHANGE NOTHING, and you're done. My unsolicited advice... You should NOT start all over again unless you have no copies of anything as well, and then you're toast. Again, if they lose them... That's their problem, not yours. IF YOU HAVE THEM, you just tell them to type them up. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jb92563 Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 5:54 PM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Yak-List: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra I am also going through something similar with My Experimental Exhibition Motor Glider. When I bought the aircraft I moved it to a different FSDO's jurisdiction so i thought I had to update the Operating Limitations. The FAA fellows initial response was that he did not find any direction requiring me to do that. But I did find my special airwothiness cert and Op limitations date did not match and wanted to rectify the situation. I had SA Cert dated 1991 and Op Lim's dated 1993. I was informed that the FAA had no record of any of them in their archives since 1984! Did they conveniently loose all the unlimited special airworthy certs from Scottdale,AZ before archiving. ...jeez what the heck is going on! Called the AZ FSDO and they did not have them either. So now it looks like I will have to apply again. and go through the hassle all over, because nobody in the FAA knows much about self launch gliders (motor gliders) I did find it good to hear that the FAA can not arbitrarily change your Op Lims, but what if they lose them? Frustrated, Ray -------- Ray Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202) Moni MotorGlider Schreder HP-11 Glider Grob 109 Motorglider Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298776#298776 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Rog.. I stand corrected. More info to follow on engine AD's. I am talking to a whole slew of FAA guys right now, that are HELPING. Obviously not in THIS area. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:04 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra Mark, FWIW, the Special Airworthiness Certificate or any Airworthiness Certificate for that matter is never in the name of any individual or corporation. The Certificate is issued for the airplane, not an individual. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:59 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Ray, based on what I have learned, the Operating Limitations must be updated when you purchase the aircraft, because: 1. The new special airworthiness certificate needs to be in your name, which means it now has a new date. 2. The operating limitations must have a date on it that matches your special airworthiness certificate. You should have the previous airworthiness certificate and operating limitations from the previous owner on hand. The FAA does not have to have a record of ANYTHING. YOU HAVE THE RECORD IN YOUR HANDS! You make a copy and send it to them, they type up new ones and CHANGE NOTHING, and you're done. My unsolicited advice... You should NOT start all over again unless you have no copies of anything as well, and then you're toast. Again, if they lose them... That's their problem, not yours. IF YOU HAVE THEM, you just tell them to type them up. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jb92563 Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 5:54 PM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Yak-List: Re: FSDO changing operating limitations on pre-moratorium aircra I am also going through something similar with My Experimental Exhibition Motor Glider. When I bought the aircraft I moved it to a different FSDO's jurisdiction so i thought I had to update the Operating Limitations. The FAA fellows initial response was that he did not find any direction requiring me to do that. But I did find my special airwothiness cert and Op limitations date did not match and wanted to rectify the situation. I had SA Cert dated 1991 and Op Lim's dated 1993. I was informed that the FAA had no record of any of them in their archives since 1984! Did they conveniently loose all the unlimited special airworthy certs from Scottdale,AZ before archiving. ...jeez what the heck is going on! Called the AZ FSDO and they did not have them either. So now it looks like I will have to apply again. and go through the hassle all over, because nobody in the FAA knows much about self launch gliders (motor gliders) I did find it good to hear that the FAA can not arbitrarily change your Op Lims, but what if they lose them? Frustrated, Ray -------- Ray Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202) Moni MotorGlider Schreder HP-11 Glider Grob 109 Motorglider Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298776#298776 http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =============== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:42 PM PST US From: Cpayne Subject: Yak-List: Experimental Class and more Good piece by John Cox but with one picky...using a certified engine/prop combo will shorten Phase I from 40 hours to 25 hours, not a real big deal but helpful. Of course, it can go "experimental" at some point after that. As a Light-Sport repairman, a couple of rules stand out in contrast: Changes are NOT allowed after certification unless so allowed by the Manufacturer (not FAA). However, if any installed equipment was TSO'd when certified, that equipment is subject to AD compliance. For those folks with the ESLA version (an over 50% kit), it must remain the same as the Special version, which means compliance with AD's on that equipment. I'm told that the FAA likes this language, it gets them out of the loop yet places compliance on the Owner and Mechanic, with all paperwork coming from the Manufacturer. This thinking was strained when wings started coming off one kit model and the NSTB called for grounding. Luckily, the EAA and AOPA watch the fine print in all proposed changes. Some day it might be us, again. There was that foreign warbird moratorium back in the 90's. Craig Payne ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:04 PM PST US From: "Jerry Painter" Subject: Yak-List: UTVA-66 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:58 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: Experimental Class and more From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" I do not know if the YAK list server will allow an attachment or not, but this attachment addresses Experimental Aircraft with certified engines and props and addresses if AD's apply. It also addresses removal of engine data plates. If it does not "go" to the list... I'll try another approach. The key words are: If the engine or prop was Type Certificated or "TSO'ed" then all AD's for same MUST be complied with. No exceptions. Data Plate removal, log book entries, whatever. Remember... I don't know anything about this issue personally, other than what I am trying to pass along. Don't shoot the messenger. If anyone wants a personal email copy of this thing if it fails to "post", just let me know. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 3:57 PM Subject: Yak-List: Experimental Class and more Good piece by John Cox but with one picky...using a certified engine/prop combo will shorten Phase I from 40 hours to 25 hours, not a real big deal but helpful. Of course, it can go "experimental" at some point after that. As a Light-Sport repairman, a couple of rules stand out in contrast: Changes are NOT allowed after certification unless so allowed by the Manufacturer (not FAA). However, if any installed equipment was TSO'd when certified, that equipment is subject to AD compliance. For those folks with the ESLA version (an over 50% kit), it must remain the same as the Special version, which means compliance with AD's on that equipment. I'm told that the FAA likes this language, it gets them out of the loop yet places compliance on the Owner and Mechanic, with all paperwork coming from the Manufacturer. This thinking was strained when wings started coming off one kit model and the NSTB called for grounding. Luckily, the EAA and AOPA watch the fine print in all proposed changes. Some day it might be us, again. There was that foreign warbird moratorium back in the 90's. Craig Payne ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.