Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:38 AM - Re: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P (Roger Kemp M.D.)
2. 07:56 AM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
3. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 08:54 AM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (doug sapp)
5. 09:08 AM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (T A LEWIS)
6. 09:09 AM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
7. 09:30 AM - Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P (barryhancock)
8. 09:52 AM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (Gill Gutierrez)
9. 09:55 AM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (bill wade)
10. 12:37 PM - Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P (Dale)
11. 01:52 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (DAVID STROUD)
12. 03:07 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (Greg)
13. 03:08 PM - Test only (DAVID STROUD)
14. 03:12 PM - Electronic Ignition? (DAVID STROUD)
15. 03:52 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
16. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
17. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
18. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
19. 03:58 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (A. Dennis Savarese)
20. 04:40 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition? (Gill Gutierrez)
21. 06:59 PM - Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P (barryhancock)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P |
Guys,
I think we are picking gnats off a dogs ass here. Its' your money. I've been
flying the Taylor wire conversion and NGK motorcycle plugs for almost 4
years now in my 50. I have yet to pull a fouled plug out when I changed
plugs each year. At ~ $35 for 18 I can buy 3.6 sets to one set of NGK
iridium plugs. Even on the lower 3 cylinders that sit and collect oil during
the 1 to 2 weeks between flying, I've yet to have a fouled plug when I
pulled them. Damp maybe yes but definitely not carbon or lead fouled like
the bottom right back plug on my spam can gets. I would change it to NGK
motorcycle plugs in a heartbeat if it were not certificated. Yeah, I know
just make it "experimental". The but is she goes in class B airspace some of
the time though.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 10:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P
iridium plugs have the smallest cross section area from the core to the
electrode wire giving it the least fowling area of all plugs. Less places
to have stuff get stuck. NGK racing information web site talks about all
their plugs. The more electrodes the more chance for fowling. The smaller
the gap the more chance for fowling if it's going to fowl. I found NGK
iridium plugs for $7.oo on line at several places. They work great.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302942#302942
Message 2
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| Subject: | Electronic Ignition? |
Sadly no. The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and
rotating pieces. It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting
so hard to find. I am trying to apply the KISS principle. I also am
not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to
it" projects. However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,
multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the
"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and
replace and cheap.
The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high
voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be
able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying
now. In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a
distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it
with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.
I'm collecting old mags myself. :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Sooo, when all you guys install either Barry's or Mark's electronic
ignition, throw them old magnetos my way so I can "recycle" them...
Craig Payne
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P |
Just out of curiosity, how many people out there that read this list
server are running M-14's with automotive plugs and wires?
Of those that run them, can anyone tell me how often they have had a
plug that failed for any reason other than dropping it on the concrete
floor?
I'd sure like to hear some hard statistics about how many hours they
have been run, and what reason they were pulled and ho.
Dale, I am absolutely sure that every spark plug manufacturer will
endorse their most expensive product as being the one everyone should
buy.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 11:50 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P
iridium plugs have the smallest cross section area from the core to the
electrode wire giving it the least fowling area of all plugs. Less
places to have stuff get stuck. NGK racing information web site talks
about all their plugs. The more electrodes the more chance for fowling.
The smaller the gap the more chance for fowling if it's going to fowl.
I found NGK iridium plugs for $7.oo on line at several places. They
work great.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=302942#302942
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition? |
Mark,
Sounds like you have excluded the coil from the system but just for
conversation sake I have contracted with a US company to produce a run of
350 coils, these coils will fit both the Russian and Chinese mags.
I have dual Light Speed units on on my cub with a back up battery and have
yet to find a down side to the installation, no moving parts, hotter spark,
more power, and much lighter weight. This all begs the question WHY don't
we have something like this for the radial engines?
Doug
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Sadly no. The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and
> rotating pieces. It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting
> so hard to find. I am trying to apply the KISS principle. I also am
> not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to
> it" projects. However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,
> multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the
> "shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and
> replace and cheap.
>
> The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high
> voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be
> able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying
> now. In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a
> distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it
> with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.
>
> I'm collecting old mags myself. :-)
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne
> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29 PM
> To: yak-list
> Subject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
>
>
> Sooo, when all you guys install either Barry's or Mark's electronic
> ignition, throw them old magnetos my way so I can "recycle" them...
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition? |
Doug,=0ALet us know when you get the coils .=0ATerry=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________
________________________=0AFrom: doug sapp <dougsappllc@gmail.com>=0ATo: ya
k-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, June 29, 2010 11:50:15 AM=0ASubject: Re:
Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?=0A=0AMark, =0ASounds like you have excluded
the coil from the system but just for conversation sake I have contracted w
ith a US company to produce a run of 350 coils, these coils will fit both t
he Russian and-Chinese-mags.=0A=0AI have dual Light Speed units on on m
y cub with a back up battery and have yet to find a down side to the instal
lation, no moving parts, hotter spark, more power, and much lighter weight.
- This all begs the question WHY don't we have something like this for t
he radial engines?=0A=0ADoug=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitte
rlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
rry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>=0A>=0A>Sadly no. -The
design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and=0A>rotating pieces. -
It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting=0A>so hard to find.
-I am trying to apply the KISS principle. -I also am=0A>not a design en
gineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to=0A>it" projects.
-However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,=0A>multiple dischar
ge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the=0A>"shower of sparks
// Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and=0A>replace and cheap.=0A
>=0A>The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high
=0A>voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be
=0A>able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying
=0A>now. -In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a=0A>di
stributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it=0A>with
test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.=0A>=0A>I'm collectin
g old mags myself. -:-)=0A>=0A>Mark=0A>=0A>=0A>-----Original Message-----
=0A>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com=0A>[mailto:owner-yak-list-ser
ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne=0A>Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29
PM=0A>To: yak-list=0A>Subject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?=0A>=0A>--> Ya
k-List message posted by: Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com>=0A>=0A>Sooo, when all
you guys install either Barry's or Mark's electronic=0A>ignition, throw th
em old magnetos my way so I can "recycle" them...=0A>=0A>Craig Payne=0A>=0A
>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>============0A>rget="_blank">h
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List=0A>=========
===0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>===========
=0A>le, List Admin.=0A>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A
========
Message 6
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| Subject: | Electronic Ignition? |
I think it is mainly a matter of "volume". If you can convince Light
Speed to make a system for our 9 cylinder arrangement (and that is the
real issue in design) then they would be a much better source than what
I am contemplating!
I did not know that you had contracted to have a run of coils made. NEW
INFO! This might move my project to the FAR back burner as I have no
desire to re-invent the wheel.
No matter what kind of system that is used, you are always going to need
some kind of trigger. Since this is a geared engine, it is going to be
a little bit difficult to get that off any external moving parts, such
as is the case with car engine crank triggers that are usually attached
in some way to the harmonic balancer, etc. I am guessing that even
Light Speed is going to have problems in that regard, unless they custom
design something that goes into the holes where the mags USED to go.
That, by the way, is the exact problem I am having... Because no one
wants to do that level of design, at that kind of expense, for the small
market we appear to represent. That is why my starting design continues
to use the M9 mag case. Actually the CJ-6 mag case would work just as
well. Advance mechanisms can be retained or removed.
Bottom line, I don't think they are making it for us because we do not
appear to be a market they can make money from.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Mark,
Sounds like you have excluded the coil from the system but just for
conversation sake I have contracted with a US company to produce a run
of 350 coils, these coils will fit both the Russian and Chinese mags.
I have dual Light Speed units on on my cub with a back up battery and
have yet to find a down side to the installation, no moving parts,
hotter spark, more power, and much lighter weight. This all begs the
question WHY don't we have something like this for the radial engines?
Doug
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sadly no. The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case
and
rotating pieces. It will not use the existing mag coil that is
getting
so hard to find. I am trying to apply the KISS principle. I
also am
not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get
around to
it" projects. However, it should have a terrifically strong
spark,
multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability
if the
"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service
and
replace and cheap.
The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal
high
voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette)
will be
able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are
carrying
now. In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a
distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then
operate it
with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.
I'm collecting old mags myself. :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29 PM
To: yak-list
Subject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Sooo, when all you guys install either Barry's or Mark's
electronic
ignition, throw them old magnetos my way so I can "recycle"
them...
Craig Payne
==========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P |
Gang,
Good discussion. To answer Mark's questions, one plane has over 1600 hours, then
several others with less. My point here is that it's enough time to see trends
and long term performance benefit. Everything about this is positive. Iridium
plugs are a bit more expensive, but we believe with our set up has advantages
of being more durable (replace less often), better spark, and better combustion.
The fact that you can leave the gap at .032 reduces "maintenance",
which means you can buy them on the road and not have to set the gap, for instance.
We use a 8.5mm wire that has ultra low resistance, as mentioned previously.
Some people believe in "good enough", and that's fine. We believe that sometimes
its better to spend a bit more money up front for better long term results
and reducing the long term costs. This is how we design all of our upgrades...
Unfortunately, the market size is so small it doesn't allow for the real quantitative
analysis that Mark would like (and would surely benefit us all), but
we do the best with what we have.
Happy Flying,
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
(909) 606-4444
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303001#303001
Message 8
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| Subject: | Electronic Ignition? |
Doug,
Light Speed take timing directly off the engine crank, Housia and M14s don't
have a convenient take off point. I worked with the guy in Australia who
makes his own 9 cylinder radial complete with electronic ignition driven off
the auxiliary. The problem was that it was too expensive, as I recall $2000
to replace both mags. The system will fit in place of one mag. It had two
Hall sensors taking off the same point to assure that spark was
synchronized.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Mark,
Sounds like you have excluded the coil from the system but just for
conversation sake I have contracted with a US company to produce a run of
350 coils, these coils will fit both the Russian and Chinese mags.
I have dual Light Speed units on on my cub with a back up battery and have
yet to find a down side to the installation, no moving parts, hotter spark,
more power, and much lighter weight. This all begs the question WHY don't
we have something like this for the radial engines?
Doug
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sadly no. The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and
rotating pieces. It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting
so hard to find. I am trying to apply the KISS principle. I also am
not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to
it" projects. However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,
multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the
"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and
replace and cheap.
The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high
voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be
able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying
now. In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a
distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it
with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.
I'm collecting old mags myself. :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Sooo, when all you guys install either Barry's or Mark's electronic
ignition, throw them old magnetos my way so I can "recycle" them...
Craig Payne
==========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition? |
Mark I've been using Champion plugs in two airplanes for three years no fou
led plugs. The latest cars are using coil over plug technology just supply
12V at the proper time talk about redundancy nine set of points simple, or
computer control with advance timing for RPM & power curve OHH YA. Do have
an extra mag if yo send it back with KISS electronic ignition.=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Che
rry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics
.com=0ASent: Tue, June 29, 2010 10:55:34 AM=0ASubject: RE: Yak-List: Electr
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>=0A=0ASadly no.
- The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and=0Arotating piec
es.- It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting=0Aso hard to f
ind.- I am trying to apply the KISS principle.- I also am=0Anot a desig
n engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to=0Ait" projects
.- However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,=0Amultiple discha
rge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the=0A"shower of sparks
// Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and=0Areplace and cheap.-
=0A=0AThe down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high
=0Avoltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be
=0Aable to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying
=0Anow.- In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a=0Adist
ributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it=0Awith tes
t equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.- =0A=0AI'm collecting
old mags myself.- :-) =0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFr
om: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne=0ASent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29 PM=0ATo:
yak-list=0ASubject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?=0A=0A--> Yak-List messa
ge posted by: Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com>=0A=0ASooo, when all you guys inst
all either Barry's or Mark's electronic=0Aignition, throw them old magnetos
-========================
============0A=0A=0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P |
The only stats I have are this. My 52 would fowl plugs now and then and clean
up 10 min into the flight. When I replaced them with iridium plugs I no longer
have fowling at all. That's after 200 hrs of flying. And I changed the regular
NGK's twice before that thinking it was something else. For me that's a 100%
better feeling.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303010#303010
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition? |
It's just not that tough to do. Been there two times and retrofitted a
four banger (Subaru),
single to dual electronic ignition and a six banger (Corvair ) , single
points to dual electronic back
in my auto conversion days. Take a look here and see the poor boy
method on the Corvair. Scroll down.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/dstroud/ or here to see how a
Compufire unit
feeds dual ignition to a highly modified (short stroke) vw :
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-06_aeromorph75.asp
Here's how my Corvair got done. Yank out the points system and leave in
the mechanical
auto advance pack. Make up a new flat plate to hold two ignition modules
180 degrees apart,
install a six cylinder reluctor (we gaffed one from an electronic Ford
F-150). Each module fires
out to it's own coil, the coil output feeds an MSD coil joiner and that
feeds the distributor, the
rotor in the distributor farts out the sparks to the appropriate
cylinders.
M14's and Huosai's have the benefit of two mags being driven anyway
into 18 plugs so no need for the coil joiner
parts. This system is dependent on having a live battery on board. No
battery = you're now in a glider.
Could you possibly run one mag as usual and put the electronic in the
other or retain a dedicated
emergency backup battery for ignition only if your stock battery went
flat ?
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
----- Original Message -----
From: Gill Gutierrez
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 12:38 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Doug,
Light Speed take timing directly off the engine crank, Housia and M14s
don't have a convenient take off point. I worked with the guy in
Australia who makes his own 9 cylinder radial complete with electronic
ignition driven off the auxiliary. The problem was that it was too
expensive, as I recall $2000 to replace both mags. The system will fit
in place of one mag. It had two Hall sensors taking off the same point
to assure that spark was synchronized.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 8:50 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Mark,
Sounds like you have excluded the coil from the system but just for
conversation sake I have contracted with a US company to produce a run
of 350 coils, these coils will fit both the Russian and Chinese mags.
I have dual Light Speed units on on my cub with a back up battery and
have yet to find a down side to the installation, no moving parts,
hotter spark, more power, and much lighter weight. This all begs the
question WHY don't we have something like this for the radial engines?
Doug
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sadly no. The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and
rotating pieces. It will not use the existing mag coil that is
getting
so hard to find. I am trying to apply the KISS principle. I also am
not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around
to
it" projects. However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,
multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the
"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and
replace and cheap.
The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high
voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be
able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying
now. In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a
distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it
with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.
I'm collecting old mags myself. :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29 PM
To: yak-list
Subject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Sooo, when all you guys install either Barry's or Mark's electronic
ignition, throw them old magnetos my way so I can "recycle" them...
Craig Payne
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06/29/10 06:35:00
Message 12
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| Subject: | Electronic Ignition? |
Light Speed also has a Hall effect sensor that replaces a mag for Lycomings.
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gill Gutierrez
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Doug,
Light Speed take timing directly off the engine crank, Housia and M14s don't
have a convenient take off point. I worked with the guy in Australia who
makes his own 9 cylinder radial complete with electronic ignition driven off
the auxiliary. The problem was that it was too expensive, as I recall $2000
to replace both mags. The system will fit in place of one mag. It had two
Hall sensors taking off the same point to assure that spark was
synchronized.
Gill
Message 13
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Test only
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
Message 14
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| Subject: | Electronic Ignition? |
It shouldn't be that tough to do on the existing mags. Been there done
that two times and retrofitted
a four banger (Subaru), single to dual electronic ignition and a six
(Corvair ) , single points to dual
electronic back in my auto conversion days. Take a look here and see
the poor boy method on the
Corvair. Scroll down. http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/dstroud/
or here to see how a
Compufire unit feeds dual ignition to a highly modified (short stroke)
vw :
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-06_aeromorph75.asp
Here's how my Corvair got done. Yank out the points system and leave in
the mechanical
auto advance pack. Make up a new flat plate to hold two ignition modules
180 degrees apart,
install a six cylinder reluctor (we gaffed one from an electronic Ford
F-150). Each module fires
out to it's own coil, the coil output feeds an MSD coil joiner and that
feeds the distributor, the
rotor in the distributor farts out the sparks to the appropriate
cylinders.
M14's and Huosai's have the benefit of two mags being driven into 18
plugs already so no need for
the coil joiner parts. This system is dependent on having a live battery
on board.
No battery = you're now in a glider.
Could you possibly run one mag as usual and put the electronic in the
other or retain a dedicated
emergency backup battery for ignition only if your stock battery went
flat and run two "electronic"
mags gutted out for the purpose ?
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
----- Original Message -----
From: Gill Gutierrez
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 12:38 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Doug,
Light Speed take timing directly off the engine crank, Housia and M14s
don't have a convenient take off point. I worked with the guy in
Australia who makes his own 9 cylinder radial complete with electronic
ignition driven off the auxiliary. The problem was that it was too
expensive, as I recall $2000 to replace both mags. The system will fit
in place of one mag. It had two Hall sensors taking off the same point
to assure that spark was synchronized.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 8:50 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Mark,
Sounds like you have excluded the coil from the system but just for
conversation sake I have contracted with a US company to produce a run
of 350 coils, these coils will fit both the Russian and Chinese mags.
I have dual Light Speed units on on my cub with a back up battery and
have yet to find a down side to the installation, no moving parts,
hotter spark, more power, and much lighter weight. This all begs the
question WHY don't we have something like this for the radial engines?
Doug
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sadly no. The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and
rotating pieces. It will not use the existing mag coil that is
getting
so hard to find. I am trying to apply the KISS principle. I also am
not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around
to
it" projects. However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,
multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the
"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and
replace and cheap.
The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high
voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be
able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying
now. In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a
distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it
with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.
I'm collecting old mags myself. :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29 PM
To: yak-list
Subject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Sooo, when all you guys install either Barry's or Mark's electronic
ignition, throw them old magnetos my way so I can "recycle" them...
Craig Payne
==========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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06/29/10 06:35:00
Message 15
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| Subject: | Electronic Ignition? |
That is exactly the START of the idea I am working on. A multiple coil
system would indeed be a hot setup! The problem there is in complexity
and in component location. I have not solved those issues. Wish I
could. To keep it simple, I planned on using the original spark
distribution system, using of course new wires and auto plugs (Iridium
or otherwise), because the original spark plug wires won't stand up to
the spark voltage this system will generate. Speaking about plug gaps:
This system would easily support plug gaps up to .045 My research has
so far implied that the actual mechanism of the mags we are using now
are FAIRLY reliable, although I have had two cases of internal gear
failure. These seem to be unusual though, and were probably due to an
actual engine issue! I am looking at putting a Hall Effect sensor into
the mag to replace the points, but .... The points themselves would
indeed work to get things up and running quickly. You see, what I am
looking at here is a simple kit that you can buy yourself (not
necessarily from me by the way.. But totally on your own) and install it
yourself. It's not rocket science. At least, I hope not.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Mark I've been using Champion plugs in two airplanes for three years no
fouled plugs. The latest cars are using coil over plug technology just
supply 12V at the proper time talk about redundancy nine set of points
simple, or computer control with advance timing for RPM & power curve
OHH YA. Do have an extra mag if yo send it back with KISS electronic
ignition.
________________________________
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 10:55:34 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sadly no. The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and
rotating pieces. It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting
so hard to find. I am trying to apply the KISS principle. I also am
not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to
it" projects. However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,
multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the
"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and
replace and cheap.
The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high
voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be
able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying
now. In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a
distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it
with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.
I'm collecting old mags myself. :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Sooo, when all you guys install either Barry's or Mark's electronic
ignition, throw them old magnetos my way so I can "recycle" them...
Craig Payne
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P |
Gents on the YAK list.
I have been giving this discussion some thought and have decided I am
going to bow out as gracefully as possible. Sorry if anyone did not
find it interesting. What I have been thinking is this:
Regardless of who's kit you buy.. Say from either Dennis or Barry ...
What plug you use is really up to you and is a personal choice.
Dennis's kit used to come with NGK's and I believe he was the first
person to come up with the whole idea of using high quality auto racing
wire and standard plugs, and then test it and offer it to the flying
public. Barry now sells a kit very similar to the first one offered,
but uses different components, that includes Iridium plugs, which I
think he has stated makes it a better product, kit, whatever.
What dawns on me here, (and should have a lot sooner than this! SORRY!)
is that just like Dennis does not have a proprietary right to be the
only one to sell the idea of using high quality automobile racing wires
to the M-14 world, just because he came up with it and marketed it
first, ... Barry does not (in my humble opinion) have the right to
claim that using Iridium plugs makes his kit something unique either.
The discussion about which plug gets recommended by the kit maker, is
just that... A recommendation and nothing more. The aircraft owner is
still responsible for making the decision on what wires to buy and what
plugs to use. Either kit can be changed to use whatever plug the owner
wants to use. Before or after it gets installed in the aircraft. I
have NO vested interest in what type of spark plug ANYONE flies in their
aircraft!
That said, getting into discussions like this have a tendency for a
person who SELLS a part or kit to DEFEND that kit as being better.
That's human nature and is to be expected. It's hard not to be
defensive about something you make and sell when someone (like ME for
example) :-) disagrees about some of the basic premises of .... What do
I call it? Maybe "Advertising"? I am not sure.
This is actually where it is easy to get into what is called a "Conflict
of Interest" and leads to why for a long time advertisement of sold
products was prohibited on this list.
I am not bashing Barry or anyone else. What I do think might be a good
suggestion is that people who make kits and sell them to folks on the
YAK list, ought to take any discussion of their product to a one on one
level with the person who is interested. As in: "I sell something that
might be helpful to you, please contact off list". Also making a list
of sold products and what they do and how they do it and posting it to
this list sounds like a good idea to me.
However, getting in a discussion that could be deemed in some ways to be
interpreted as "who sells the better WIZNUT... Me or the other guy" ...
should be avoided. While the discussion of plugs, and ignition system
ideas on the YAK list is what I think the list is meant for, this
particular thread line is crossing into areas that I think should be
avoided, so .... That is what I am going to do.
Best Regards to all,
Mark
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P |
Good discussion (I agree), but I have to add a word of polite caution here Barry.
Please do not equate what I am saying to the premise of "Good Enough". That
term is best left to those running the original wires and plugs that came in
these engines, which some people are still forced to do in other countries.
I am all about using high quality designs and components. The wires you sell meet
that description as do the ones contained in Dennis's kit. This is exactly
why I did indeed "spend a little more money up front for better long term results
and reducing the long term costs". The system I have in there right now
does exactly that. So does yours. The only real difference that I see in actual
performance parameters between the two kits is in the choice of the actual
spark plug. I believe using Iridium Plugs versus more standard designs in our
engines is not a case of meeting the "Good Enough" description, but is rather
more a case of "Gilding the Lily".
For example: How many people who own these aircraft have determined that the wiring
that is in there now is "Good Enough"? I mean the actual complete electrical
wiring harness in the aircraft! The Russian wire that I have looked at
(and I am indeed an expert in THIS area Barry) is less than ideal. It is in fact
UNSAFE if MILSPEC requirements were being followed. That does not mean it
does not work. It does mean that it is not very good. This same premise also
goes to the whole electrical power generation system, vis--vis the HUGE generator
and all the requisite support devices required to run it versus say a good
Alternator system. I understand you believe that your choice of plugs helps
to achieve better spark and better combustion. Putting it simply, I do not
believe it does to any really measurable extent. However, I definitely agree
it is more durable! But as I have already said.... I pull my plugs at LEAST
every year, and when doing so always like to just replace the darn things. I
like new. New is good. And since the plugs I am tossing still have plenty of
life left in them at that point, I see no need to use even longer lasting plugs.
And as Doc said, this comes down to a personal choice and not one really
having anything to do with "Good Enough". I understand we have differences of
views here, but that's ok too.
I also need to again ask a question which you may have already answered, but I
am still not sure of. You said: "One plane has over 1600 hours". Does that
mean that you have run one airplane that has run from Zero to 1600 hours with
ONE SET of iridium plugs installed without changing or cleaning them during that
entire 1600 hour period? I'd also like to know the exact make and model number
of the test engines you are running, so I can determine what types of mags
they are using. Why? Because we are assuming at this point that a plug gap
difference between .020 and .032 equates to better performance in the plug.
This is not necessarily correct. Many engine issues can impact ideal gap settings.
Yes, the type of plug itself impacts this as you have implied, but so do
many other things.
Keep one other thing in mind regarding gap settings on the plugs that I personally
use. The ONLY reason that a plug gap of .020 is called for is due to STARTING
requirements, not ENGINE RUNNING requirements. My plugs were gapped to .035
for a YEAR! THEY RAN PERFECTLY THAT WHOLE TIME. The only problem I had was
in hot STARTING.. .not in engine RUNNING. The "booster coil" in my setup did
not have enough juice to reliably fire the plug at .035 The mag itself ran
perfectly at that plug gap setting. Apples and Oranges.
A comment: Every set of plugs that go into any engine on this planet no matter
where they were purchased or what they are intended to be used on should have
the plug gap at least checked once before installation. They may indeed not
need to be "adjusted" but they should ALWAYS be checked. They also need to be
pulled and examined at every "Annual/Conditional" as any and every aircraft owner
knows. Along those lines comes carbon fouling of the actual plug threads.
This is another reason I like to use NEW plugs every year, along with a reapplication
of an anti-seizing compound on the plug threads, being very careful
to never get any of that crap into the combustion chamber! Just my 2 cents..
Again.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of barryhancock
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 12:31 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P
--> <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
Gang,
Good discussion. To answer Mark's questions, one plane has over 1600 hours, then
several others with less. My point here is that it's enough time to see trends
and long term performance benefit. Everything about this is positive. Iridium
plugs are a bit more expensive, but we believe with our set up has advantages
of being more durable (replace less often), better spark, and better combustion.
The fact that you can leave the gap at .032 reduces "maintenance",
which means you can buy them on the road and not have to set the gap, for instance.
We use a 8.5mm wire that has ultra low resistance, as mentioned previously.
Some people believe in "good enough", and that's fine. We believe that sometimes
its better to spend a bit more money up front for better long term results
and reducing the long term costs. This is how we design all of our upgrades...
Unfortunately, the market size is so small it doesn't allow for the real quantitative
analysis that Mark would like (and would surely benefit us all), but
we do the best with what we have.
Happy Flying,
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
(909) 606-4444
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303001#303001
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P |
Thanks Dale, that is good to know!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 15:37
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P
The only stats I have are this. My 52 would fowl plugs now and then and
clean up 10 min into the flight. When I replaced them with iridium plugs
I no longer have fowling at all. That's after 200 hrs of flying. And I
changed the regular NGK's twice before that thinking it was something
else. For me that's a 100% better feeling.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition? |
Ironically, there IS a solid state ignition system for radial engines.
Just not OUR radial engines. The company in Australia, Rotec, who
builds the two small radials (7 and 9 cylinder) manufactures an
electronic ignition for their engines. They have expressed ZERO
interest in OEM'ing their 9 cylinder units which could be easily adapted
to our engines.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: doug sapp
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Mark,
Sounds like you have excluded the coil from the system but just for
conversation sake I have contracted with a US company to produce a run
of 350 coils, these coils will fit both the Russian and Chinese mags.
I have dual Light Speed units on on my cub with a back up battery and
have yet to find a down side to the installation, no moving parts,
hotter spark, more power, and much lighter weight. This all begs the
question WHY don't we have something like this for the radial engines?
Doug
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sadly no. The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and
rotating pieces. It will not use the existing mag coil that is
getting
so hard to find. I am trying to apply the KISS principle. I also
am
not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around
to
it" projects. However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,
multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if
the
"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and
replace and cheap.
The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high
voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will
be
able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are
carrying
now. In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a
distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it
with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.
I'm collecting old mags myself. :-)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cpayne
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 6:29 PM
To: yak-list
Subject: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Sooo, when all you guys install either Barry's or Mark's electronic
ignition, throw them old magnetos my way so I can "recycle" them...
Craig Payne
==========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 20
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| Subject: | Electronic Ignition? |
Yes the problem with our engines is that they are geared props rather than
direct drive, so you can't mount the sensor on the prop shaft for timing.
M14 has different gearing as compared to the Housia. The Light Speed uses
a wasted spark system and times directly off the crank.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 12:57 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Light Speed also has a Hall effect sensor that replaces a mag for Lycomings.
_____
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gill Gutierrez
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Electronic Ignition?
Doug,
Light Speed take timing directly off the engine crank, Housia and M14s don't
have a convenient take off point. I worked with the guy in Australia who
makes his own 9 cylinder radial complete with electronic ignition driven off
the auxiliary. The problem was that it was too expensive, as I recall $2000
to replace both mags. The system will fit in place of one mag. It had two
Hall sensors taking off the same point to assure that spark was
synchronized.
Gill
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Plugs and Prop Gov Setup For M14P |
Gang,
One of the things I have neglected to mention previously is the concept of total
resistance - one of the biggest concerns of this discussion. Our system, developed
over a couple years by friends of WW working closely with gurus in high
energy electronic ignition systems, provides the lowest total resistance of
any upgraded ignition system for our engines that we are aware of. In addition
to the other benefits previously described, one of the biggest reasons for the
Iridium plugs is it allows us to run a wider gap and, using our ultra low resistance
8.5mm wire, and still have lower resistance than the other systems out
there, which makes the coils last longer.
Now, when an electronic system is developed, that will be the ticket....
Hope this helps,
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
(909) 606-4444
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
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