Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:38 AM - Re: (A. Dennis Savarese)
2. 04:45 AM - Re: Starter sequence M14 (Bill Lang)
3. 04:53 AM - Re: Re: (Eric Wobschall)
4. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Starter sequence M14 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
5. 08:51 AM - Re: Solid State Ignition (MSD) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
Message 1
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Contact me off-list and I should be able to help you regarding the
inspection plan. I have a comprehensive 18 page annual inspection
guide for the 52.
Battery - most people use 2 - 12 volt sealed, gel batteries to replace
the old, heavy Russian battery. Absolutely no need for it whatsoever.
Here's an example of what is commonly used.
http://www.elkproducts.com/products/elk-12180.htm You can purchase
these at a local Batteries Plus store for around $50 each. You'll also
have to fabricate a small try for the batteries to fit in inside the
battery compartment. Most everyone uses 1" aluminum angle sections and
rivets them to the floor of the battery compartment.
Front Turn and Bank - This unit is not identical to the rear unit (even
though they look the same) because it has a capillary tube that was used
when the instructor in the rear cockpit disabled the instrument to
simulate an instrument failure. To my knowledge, there is no company in
the US that repairs these instruments. Although it is connected to the
static system, it is connected thru the disabling solenoids which are
located behind the instrument panel and mounted on the back side of the
firewall. You can bypass the disabling solenoids. If you decide to
install a US VSI in the front cockpit, you will need to bypass the
disabling solenoid. If can find out if it can be repaired by one of the
restoration companies.
Oh, and it would be nice to know your name too. :-)
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: delfin
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 2:45 PM
I have a couple of YAK questions that I hope someone can help out with
The original battery appears to be a 12 SAM23 , Russian design. Is
there an Oddesey or other strong battery that will fit into the area
without major modification?
I am also looking for a english version of the complete Russian
inspection plan for the annual. Can I find this on the web/
I need to have the front turn/bank rate of climb DA-30K repaired . Is
there any US source for this. Its sticking
I have a small leak in the emergency air system and I am looking for
the check valve for the YAK 52 (new) any ideas on this (the CJ one
requires a mod)
thanks
Email: L29delfin@yahoo.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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| Subject: | RE: Starter sequence M14 |
Pleading to anybody with detailed advice on how to get my M14P starter to s
tart my M14P
Below is the correspondence so far that you good folks have provided. We ha
ve tried several settings on the starter spider=2C but to no success. The p
rop turns a few pots=2C quite slowly it seems=2C but then stops or =F6scill
ates=2C or blows air out the exhaust
We have access to plenty of air. We have tried direct air to the spider=2C
eliminating all upstream equipment. We have tried 4=2C 6 8 12 degrees and s
till the prop waffles around. The engine starts first pull manually and is
NEW=2C with only 50 hours on it. The starter has never worked on this engin
e. We are now driven to distraction as a change in setting of the spider is
very time consuming as you may know. Any thoughts?
Once the engine is warm=2C the engine (I am told) started first go WITH the
air starter. Now this may be because=3B
1. engine warm and very easy to start on first rotation or
2. maybe on a cold engine=2C valves are sticking cold=2C and are freed on
ce warmed. but
Mechanic has done cold compression test and all pots exceed required compre
ssion limits
Just a tought but is it possible for valves to stick on a cold engine and s
till show good compression on a compression test? I don't want to throw in
a red herring
We are stumped
Any thoughts suggestions instructions (any from left field) most welcome
Helpppp!!
Bill
...........................................................................
...........................................................................
.........
Bill=2C
Prop degrees for Housai is 9 degrees=2C for M14P 8 degrees=2C both on #4
cylinder after TDC.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang
Sent: Wednesday=2C June 02=2C 2010 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
The mechanic is working on the spider now. He asked me to ask if anyone
knows the number of degrees of prop rotation from TDC to set the spider at
=2C
or any other advice for setting it. The instuctions from the M14 manual are
a bit ambiguous. (no access to Housai Manual)
Bill
_____
From: gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
If you have access to a Housai manual=2C it provides better instructions as
it
has a diagram. The difference relates to prop gearing. I have reset mine
twice after engine disassembly and it's not a big deal.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Thursday=2C April 08=2C 2010 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
GOOD FOR YOU! Good job in finding the proper task cards!
Let me run my mouth one last time. First=2C adjusting this thing is a real
pain in the ass. It is hard to get to the nuts and stuff to remove it=2C i
t
requires you to get the engine set up perfectly=2C and then insert the thin
g
back in and tighten it down. I have been involved in adjusting it twice=2C
and it was a real ass kicker.
Next... make darn sure... let me correct that: MAKE DAMN SURE that you know
this is the problem before you remove it from the engine and start trying t
o
re-adjust it. Once you remove it=2C you have no choice but to finish the j
ob.
I am not kidding when I tell you that a flow restriction in the air system
will cause the exact same problem that you are reporting.
Yes=2C it is most likely that someone messed with this in the past=2C and
just
could never get it right again=2C and this is what you have wrong now. (I.
E.
A misadjusted Air Distributor) The odds are good that this is your problem
=2C
but as a Tech Rep=2C my mind always considers the alternatives and you can
never rule out ANYTHING unless you verify it as a "known good". That said
=2C
if your AIR FLOW to this unit is low=2C it will do the exact same thing you
are now reporting.
That said=2C if I was there=2C I would take my nitrogen bottle with a good
regulator and would connect it DIRECTLY to the line going to the air
distributor and would set it to 730 PSI and would see what happened when I
turned it on. If the engine does the exact same thing=2C then you are sure
that the distributor is the problem. However=2C if the engine spins right
around perfectly=2C then you can STOP RIGHT THERE and say "BOY OH BOY IT IS
NOT THE AIR DISTRIBUTOR" and you have saved yourself one HUGE amount of
work.
Consider this advice carefully.
Best regards=2C
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Thu=2C 4/8/10=2C Bill Lang wrote:
From: Bill Lang
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
Mark
Further to my last.. found the ref on George's web site M14 maint Manual=2C
task card 204. Hope my guy
can do it.
Thanks
Bill
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
> Date: Thu=2C 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400
> From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
MALS-14 64E"
>
>
>
> MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment.
>
> This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING!
>
> There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that
> has to be JUST right.
>
> I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly=2C I believe he has
> the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the
> maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web site.
> His site is also a wealth of knowledge.
>
> It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees=2C SAD
> TO SAY! Without the instructions=2C I have seen people mess with this
> thing for days. DAYS!
>
> Just FYI=2C the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to make
> the piston move. When it is perfectly set up=2C it not only puts air into
> one cylinder to push the piston down=2C it also sends air to the lower
> cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil that is in
> there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed PERFECTLY to the
> engine=2C just like the ignition distributor on your car=2C or the mag on
> your airplane. Please excuse the language on the net=2C but it is a real
> SOB to adjust.
>
> I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you=2C or have the
m
> memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing with it
> until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand them
> perfectly.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang
> Sent: Thursday=2C April 08=2C 2010 6:30 AM
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Technical advice needed ref starter. I have just purchesed a Yak52 that
> has apparently had a starter problem since a new engine was installed.
> It seems that there is a sequencing problem of the air going into the
> cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start=2C and then air appears to blo
w
> straight through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns backwards.
> Would it be possible to install the starter spider 180 out? My mechanic
> and I would appreciate if anyone has faced this problem and found a fix.
> Is there a mark on the spider or foolproof way of installing the spider
> that was overlooked by the original mechanics
>
> Taa
>
> Bill
_________________________________________________________________
Need a new place to live? Find it on Domain.com.au
Message 3
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My previous Yak (1991) had a sort of sled in it allowing secure
installation of batteries that are similar to the ones Dennis is
linking to. My current (1993) Yak-52 came from the factory with two
large batteries similar to what dennis suggests, just in a different
form factor. They are unnecessarily large, but the proportions seem to
replace the older batteries more directly. I'll snap a pic of what the
factory sent out and post that with the battery part number. It's the
kind you could easily order online... looks like a giant alarm system
battery.
On Jul 9, 2010, at 7:37 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> Contact me off-list and I should be able to help you regarding the
> inspection plan. I have a comprehensive 18 page annual inspection
> guide for the 52.
>
> Battery - most people use 2 - 12 volt sealed, gel batteries to
> replace the old, heavy Russian battery. Absolutely no need for it
> whatsoever. Here's an example of what is commonly used. http://www.elkproducts.com/products/elk-12180.htm
> You can purchase these at a local Batteries Plus store for around
> $50 each. You'll also have to fabricate a small try for the
> batteries to fit in inside the battery compartment. Most everyone
> uses 1" aluminum angle sections and rivets them to the floor of the
> battery compartment.
>
> Front Turn and Bank - This unit is not identical to the rear unit
> (even though they look the same) because it has a capillary tube
> that was used when the instructor in the rear cockpit disabled the
> instrument to simulate an instrument failure. To my knowledge,
> there is no company in the US that repairs these instruments.
> Although it is connected to the static system, it is connected thru
> the disabling solenoids which are located behind the instrument
> panel and mounted on the back side of the firewall. You can bypass
> the disabling solenoids. If you decide to install a US VSI in the
> front cockpit, you will need to bypass the disabling solenoid. If
> can find out if it can be repaired by one of the restoration
> companies.
>
> Oh, and it would be nice to know your name too. :-)
> Dennis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: delfin
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 2:45 PM
>
> I have a couple of YAK questions that I hope someone can help out with
>
> The original battery appears to be a 12 SAM23 , Russian design. Is
> there an Oddesey or other strong battery that will fit into the area
> without major modification?
>
> I am also looking for a english version of the complete Russian
> inspection plan for the annual. Can I find this on the web/
>
> I need to have the front turn/bank rate of climb DA-30K repaired .
> Is there any US source for this. Its sticking
>
> I have a small leak in the emergency air system and I am looking for
> the check valve for the YAK 52 (new) any ideas on this (the CJ
> one requires a mod)
>
> thanks
>
>
> Email: L29delfin@yahoo.com
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | RE: Starter sequence M14 |
When the air-distributor is out of alignment or actually bad, the prop will tend
to move a little bit, sometimes actually rotate backwards, and then stop and
oscillate with air coming out the exhaust. This sounds to me like exactly what
is happening to you. It was mentioned that adjusting this thing is "no big
deal". You need to hire that person and have them fix it for you!
I have seen three Russian mechanics flail around with this thing for hours, and
for them, it was indeed quite a BIG deal.
If your mechanic can not do it, I am guessing you are going to have to hire someone
to come out and do it for you. Recommend Vladimir Yastremski, or Dennis.
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. One other really long shot possibility. Has ANYONE messed around with the
Tach Generator timing housing? Have they taken the tach generator off, or messed
around inside of that area? It is remotely possible that if they have, there
is a gear missing from inside that assy, that actually turns the air starting
distributor. In other words, make darn sure the air-distributor is actually
TURNING when you turn the prop by hand.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 7:45 AM
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14
Pleading to anybody with detailed advice on how to get my M14P starter to start
my M14P
Below is the correspondence so far that you good folks have provided. We have tried
several settings on the starter spider, but to no success. The prop turns
a few pots, quite slowly it seems, but then stops or scillates, or blows air
out the exhaust
We have access to plenty of air. We have tried direct air to the spider, eliminating
all upstream equipment. We have tried 4, 6 8 12 degrees and still the prop
waffles around. The engine starts first pull manually and is NEW, with only
50 hours on it. The starter has never worked on this engine. We are now driven
to distraction as a change in setting of the spider is very time consuming as
you may know. Any thoughts?
Once the engine is warm, the engine (I am told) started first go WITH the air starter.
Now this may be because;
1. engine warm and very easy to start on first rotation or
2. maybe on a cold engine, valves are sticking cold, and are freed once warmed.
but
Mechanic has done cold compression test and all pots exceed required compression
limits
Just a tought but is it possible for valves to stick on a cold engine and still
show good compression on a compression test? I don't want to throw in a red herring
We are stumped
Any thoughts suggestions instructions (any from left field) most welcome
Helpppp!!
Bill
...............................................................................................................................................................
Bill,
Prop degrees for Housai is 9 degrees, for M14P 8 degrees, both on #4 cylinder after
TDC.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
The mechanic is working on the spider now. He asked me to ask if anyone knows the
number of degrees of prop rotation from TDC to set the spider at, or any other
advice for setting it. The instuctions from the M14 manual are a bit ambiguous.
(no access to Housai Manual)
Bill
_____
From: gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
If you have access to a Housai manual, it provides better instructions as it has
a diagram. The difference relates to prop gearing. I have reset mine twice
after engine disassembly and it's not a big deal.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
GOOD FOR YOU! Good job in finding the proper task cards!
Let me run my mouth one last time. First, adjusting this thing is a real pain
in the ass. It is hard to get to the nuts and stuff to remove it, it requires
you to get the engine set up perfectly, and then insert the thing back in and
tighten it down. I have been involved in adjusting it twice, and it was a real
ass kicker.
Next... make darn sure... let me correct that: MAKE DAMN SURE that you know this
is the problem before you remove it from the engine and start trying to re-adjust
it. Once you remove it, you have no choice but to finish the job.
I am not kidding when I tell you that a flow restriction in the air system will
cause the exact same problem that you are reporting.
Yes, it is most likely that someone messed with this in the past, and just could
never get it right again, and this is what you have wrong now. (I.E.
A misadjusted Air Distributor) The odds are good that this is your problem, but
as a Tech Rep, my mind always considers the alternatives and you can never rule
out ANYTHING unless you verify it as a "known good". That said, if your AIR
FLOW to this unit is low, it will do the exact same thing you are now reporting.
That said, if I was there, I would take my nitrogen bottle with a good regulator
and would connect it DIRECTLY to the line going to the air distributor and would
set it to 730 PSI and would see what happened when I turned it on. If the
engine does the exact same thing, then you are sure that the distributor is
the problem. However, if the engine spins right around perfectly, then you can
STOP RIGHT THERE and say "BOY OH BOY IT IS NOT THE AIR DISTRIBUTOR" and you
have saved yourself one HUGE amount of work.
Consider this advice carefully.
Best regards,
Mark Bitterlich
--- On Thu, 4/8/10, Bill Lang wrote:
From: Bill Lang
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
Mark
Further to my last.. found the ref on George's web site M14 maint Manual, task
card 204. Hope my guy can do it.
Thanks
Bill
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400
> From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
MALS-14 64E"
>
>
>
> MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment.
>
> This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING!
>
> There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that
> has to be JUST right.
>
> I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly, I believe he has
> the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the
> maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web site.
> His site is also a wealth of knowledge.
>
> It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees,
> SAD TO SAY! Without the instructions, I have seen people mess with
> this thing for days. DAYS!
>
> Just FYI, the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to
> make the piston move. When it is perfectly set up, it not only puts
> air into one cylinder to push the piston down, it also sends air to
> the lower cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil
> that is in there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed
> PERFECTLY to the engine, just like the ignition distributor on your
> car, or the mag on your airplane. Please excuse the language on the
> net, but it is a real SOB to adjust.
>
> I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you, or have
> them memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing
> with it until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand
> them perfectly.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang
> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 6:30 AM
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Technical advice needed ref starter. I have just purchesed a Yak52
> that has apparently had a starter problem since a new engine was installed.
> It seems that there is a sequencing problem of the air going into the
> cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to
> blow straight through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns backwards.
> Would it be possible to install the starter spider 180 out? My
> mechanic and I would appreciate if anyone has faced this problem and found a
fix.
> Is there a mark on the spider or foolproof way of installing the
> spider that was overlooked by the original mechanics
>
> Taa
>
> Bill
/157631292/direct/01/' target='_new'>Need a new place to live?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Solid State Ignition (MSD) |
You are absolutely correct Jan.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 2:34 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Solid State Ignition (MSD)
It's all very correct what you write, Mark. I'm still working on a
system too.
One important thing to mention, obvious to you and me, but easily
overlooked: do not use an advanced electronic system with the original
Russian wiring harness. The much higher energy (and voltage) will
definitely cause problems. You have to change to the racing ignition
cables, and better spark plugs (Champion REL37B, or the much cheaper
automotive plugs).As a matter of fact, I think that the installation of
Dennis' wiring kit already does 70 % of what you can get out of it.
Without it, it's useless thinking of advanced electronic stuff.
Only my 2 cents,
Jan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: donderdag 8 juli 2010 12:47
Subject: Yak-List: Solid State Ignition (MSD)
Gents (and one or two Ladies),
I had an idea some time back to develop and promote a quasi solid state
ignition system for M-14 engines. With my background in car engines and
my limited experience with M-14 engines, I saw an area where possibly
the two technologies could come together.
Couple this with the current lack of mag coils for our engine... this
idea led me to look into designing and operating a prototype, which in
fact I did. I have decided not to pursue this idea because of lack of
time and the fact that I do not have a very good business sense. I have
handed this idea and detailed info on how to accomplish it to Dennis
Savareese, who of course is the original gent who did all the research
and design work on the high performance automobile ignition system that
so many of us have used and value so highly.
I have decided to post this information here for all to use should they
have a desire to, because sooner or later the gist of it will become
public and for nothing else, I would indeed at least like to get the
credit for thinking of it first.
One of the best automobile ignition systems for racing cars today is the
MSD (Multiple Spark Discharge) ignition system. As it turns out, their
MSD-6AL system will run off of 24 volts DC with no modifications. It
has only ONE requirement for 12 volts, and that is the turn on signal
that comes in the white wire and that is very low current. Figuring out
how to do that is pretty easy, so I am not going into it here.
A standard high performance ignition coil from MSD can be used which is
powered directly from the MSD-6AL unit.
The MSD box needs a trigger, which is easily provided by the existing
points that are internal to the existing M-9 mag.
The hookup is pretty simple. Take your right mag out and remove the mag
coil. You now have a spare mag coil. Route the high voltage output
wire of the MSD automotive coil into the mag and connect it to the
cigarette stub where the secondary of the original mag coil hooked to.
It is possible to do this by going through the original P lead input
connection on the M-9 mag. Bring the wire out from the mags internal
points anyway you feel like it and hook it to the trigger input wire on
the MSD-6AL system.
That's pretty much it. You now have a solid state multiple spark
discharge system operating on your right mag, which also happens to be
your lower plugs. The lower plugs tend to foul more often than the
upper plugs, and the MSD system will tend to burn these deposits right
off immediately after starting.
The engine will still use the shower of sparks system on the left mag
for starting, but should that fail, you can turn on just the right mag
and start off the MSD system easily.
The MSD system runs off your aircrafts electrical system. Thus should
your electrical system fail, you will lose ignition on your right side.
It would be possible to use this system on BOTH mags, and install a
backup battery for emergencies, but I applied the KISS principle to this
original design. Once you see all the options available, there is a ton
of additional things that can be done with a little imagination.
I am not recommending that everyone go out and do this. It is an
OPTION. Something to keep in the back of your mind. But it works.
I've tried it.
Mark Bitterlich
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