---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/17/10: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:23 AM - Re: Re: Starter sequence M14 (Bill Lang) 2. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Starter sequence M14 (cjpilot710@aol.com) 3. 05:42 AM - Re: Re: Starter sequence M14 (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Starter sequence M14 (Scott Dierolf) 5. 08:03 AM - Tire Question (skidmk) 6. 09:25 AM - Re: Tire Question (Terry Calloway) 7. 12:41 PM - Re: Tire Question (Roger Kemp M.D.) 8. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: Starter sequence M14 (Yak Pilot) 9. 01:47 PM - Re: Tire Question (A. Dennis Savarese) 10. 02:22 PM - Re: Tire Question (Warren Hill) 11. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Starter sequence M14 (William Scully) 12. 06:00 PM - Re: WhirlWind Propellers New composite blades (Chris Wise) 13. 07:50 PM - Re: YAK starting problems (Chris Wise) 14. 08:10 PM - AIR START FIXTURE (Joe Howse) 15. 08:45 PM - Re: AIR START FIXTURE (Noplugs) 16. 11:10 PM - M14P Magneto (flyayak) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:04 AM PST US From: Bill Lang Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 SITREP 12 Degrees off no 4 pot all set. Zero rotation=2C just a loud POP of air as the starter is pushed. Pull started and ran it for half hour. Expecting so me rotation with starter=2C but still the POP of air not turning anything. Very frustrating!! What is encouraging is that the movement of the spider valve is definitely effecting the prop movement on start. 8 degrees seemed the best=2C so will fiddle around there maybe. The Aussie with the 18T and box of matches might like to come over to Cess nock and do an overnight stocktake for me Any One Bueller? Anyone? Bill > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > Date: Mon=2C 12 Jul 2010 11:13:19 -0400 > From: mark.bitterlich@navy.mil > To: yak-list@matronics.com > t=2C MALS-14 64E" > > That info was pulled from a direct translation of the M-14 manual written the folks who made the engine. > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > Sent: Saturday=2C July 10=2C 2010 7:17 PM > To: Yak List=3B Tim Windsor > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > Mark > > No worries. Thank you for your efforts =2C and we will perservere with th is thing. Nothing cannot be fixed=2C eventually. Your information is indeed different to what we had been told=2C so we will concentrate on around 12 degrees. > > Cheers > > Bill > > > ________________________________ > > Date: Sat=2C 10 Jul 2010 13:39:26 -0700 > From: yakplt@yahoo.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > To: yak-list@matronics.com > > > Again Bill=2C sorry for assuming you were in the United States. Personall y=2C I have to tell you that I enjoyed Australia more than any place I have ever been in my life=2C and that includes a whole lot of places. I was up in Nowra and made friends with a lot of wonderful folks=2C so the last thin g I want to do is be a wise-ass to a person who lives in a place I'd like t o come back and visit! > > The air distributor is set very much like when timing the mags. You want to set the engine to 12 degrees after top dead center referencing the maste r cylinder=2C which is of course cylinder number 4. Again=2C set the engine to 12 degrees AFTER top dead center on cylinder number four! > > Now adjust the the air distributor so that the slide valve will open the supply of air to the number four cylinder by 1 mm. > > That's the best I can do to help you. I hope it is enough. > > Mark > > > > --- On Sat=2C 7/10/10=2C Bill Lang wrote: > > > > From: Bill Lang > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > To: "Yak List" =2C "Tim Windsor" > Date: Saturday=2C July 10=2C 2010=2C 8:09 AM > > > Thanks Mark=2C > > Unfortunately getting Vlad or Dennis to Sydney is a bit beyond my budget. > > I think our next move will be to rig the Scuba air bottle directly to the spider valve and make small adjustments and port air directly into the spi der at each correction. That at least will save reassembly of all component s as we try and turn the engine over=2C and eliminate in all cases any pote ntial problems upstream. > > Bill > > Still in need of ideas > > > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > Date: Fri=2C 9 Jul 2010 11:49:46 -0400 > > From: mark.bitterlich@navy.mil > > To: yak-list@matronics.com > > int=2C MALS-14 64E" > > > > When the air-distributor is out of alignment or actually bad=2C the pro p will tend to move a little bit=2C sometimes actually rotate backwards=2C and then stop and oscillate with air coming out the exhaust. This sounds to me like exactly what is happening to you. It was mentioned that adjusting this thing is "no big deal". You need to hire that person and have them fix it for you! > > > > I have seen three Russian mechanics flail around with this thing for ho urs=2C and for them=2C it was indeed quite a BIG deal. > > > > If your mechanic can not do it=2C I am guessing you are going to have t o hire someone to come out and do it for you. Recommend Vladimir Yastremski =2C or Dennis. > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > P.s. One other really long shot possibility. Has ANYONE messed around w ith the Tach Generator timing housing? Have they taken the tach generator o ff=2C or messed around inside of that area? It is remotely possible that if they have=2C there is a gear missing from inside that assy=2C that actuall y turns the air starting distributor. In other words=2C make darn sure the air-distributor is actually TURNING when you turn the prop by hand. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server @matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > > Sent: Friday=2C July 09=2C 2010 7:45 AM > > To: Yak List=3B Tim Windsor > > Subject: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > > > > > Pleading to anybody with detailed advice on how to get my M14P starter to start my M14P > > > > Below is the correspondence so far that you good folks have provided. W e have tried several settings on the starter spider=2C but to no success. T he prop turns a few pots=2C quite slowly it seems=2C but then stops or =F6s cillates=2C or blows air out the exhaust > > > > We have access to plenty of air. We have tried direct air to the spider =2C eliminating all upstream equipment. We have tried 4=2C 6 8 12 degrees a nd still the prop waffles around. The engine starts first pull manually and is NEW=2C with only 50 hours on it. The starter has never worked on this e ngine. We are now driven to distraction as a change in setting of the spide r is very time consuming as you may know. Any thoughts? > > > > Once the engine is warm=2C the engine (I am told) started first go WITH the air starter. Now this may be because=3B > > > > 1. engine warm and very easy to start on first rotation or > > 2. maybe on a cold engine=2C valves are sticking cold=2C and are freed once warmed. but > > > > Mechanic has done cold compression test and all pots exceed required co mpression limits > > > > Just a tought but is it possible for valves to stick on a cold engine a nd still show good compression on a compression test? I don't want to throw in a red herring > > > > We are stumped > > > > Any thoughts suggestions instructions (any from left field) most welcom e > > > > Helpppp!! > > > > Bill > > ....................................................................... ........................................................................... ............. > > > > Bill=2C > > > > > > Prop degrees for Housai is 9 degrees=2C for M14P 8 degrees=2C both on # 4 cylinder after TDC. > > > > > > Gill > > > > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > > Sent: Wednesday=2C June 02=2C 2010 9:38 PM > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > The mechanic is working on the spider now. He asked me to ask if anyone knows the number of degrees of prop rotation from TDC to set the spider at =2C or any other advice for setting it. The instuctions from the M14 manual are a bit ambiguous. (no access to Housai Manual) > > > > Bill > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: gill.g(at)gpimail.com > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > Date: Fri=2C 9 Apr 2010 09:54:17 -0700 > > > > If you have access to a Housai manual=2C it provides better instruction s as it has a diagram. The difference relates to prop gearing. I have reset mine twice after engine disassembly and it's not a big deal. > > > > > > Gill > > > > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot > > Sent: Thursday=2C April 08=2C 2010 5:50 PM > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > GOOD FOR YOU! Good job in finding the proper task cards! > > > > > > Let me run my mouth one last time. First=2C adjusting this thing is a r eal pain in the ass. It is hard to get to the nuts and stuff to remove it =2C it requires you to get the engine set up perfectly=2C and then insert t he thing back in and tighten it down. I have been involved in adjusting it twice=2C and it was a real ass kicker. > > > > > > Next... make darn sure... let me correct that: MAKE DAMN SURE that you know this is the problem before you remove it from the engine and start try ing to re-adjust it. Once you remove it=2C you have no choice but to finish the job. > > > > > > I am not kidding when I tell you that a flow restriction in the air sys tem will cause the exact same problem that you are reporting. > > > > > > Yes=2C it is most likely that someone messed with this in the past=2C a nd just could never get it right again=2C and this is what you have wrong n ow. (I.E. > > A misadjusted Air Distributor) The odds are good that this is your prob lem=2C but as a Tech Rep=2C my mind always considers the alternatives and y ou can never rule out ANYTHING unless you verify it as a "known good". That said=2C if your AIR FLOW to this unit is low=2C it will do the exact same thing you are now reporting. > > > > > > That said=2C if I was there=2C I would take my nitrogen bottle with a g ood regulator and would connect it DIRECTLY to the line going to the air di stributor and would set it to 730 PSI and would see what happened when I tu rned it on. If the engine does the exact same thing=2C then you are sure th at the distributor is the problem. However=2C if the engine spins right aro und perfectly=2C then you can STOP RIGHT THERE and say "BOY OH BOY IT IS NO T THE AIR DISTRIBUTOR" and you have saved yourself one HUGE amount of work. > > > > > > Consider this advice carefully. > > > > > > Best regards=2C > > > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > > > --- On Thu=2C 4/8/10=2C Bill Lang wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill Lang > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > Date: Thursday=2C April 8=2C 2010=2C 7:12 PM > > > > Mark > > Further to my last.. found the ref on George's web site M14 maint Manua l=2C task card 204. Hope my guy can do it. > > > > Thanks > > Bill > > > > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > Date: Thu=2C 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400 > > > From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > MALS-14 64E" > > > > > > > > > > > > MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment. > > > > > > This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING! > > > > > > There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that > > > has to be JUST right. > > > > > > I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly=2C I believe he has > > > the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the > > > maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web sit e. > > > His site is also a wealth of knowledge. > > > > > > It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees=2C > > > SAD TO SAY! Without the instructions=2C I have seen people mess with > > > this thing for days. DAYS! > > > > > > Just FYI=2C the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to > > > make the piston move. When it is perfectly set up=2C it not only puts > > > air into one cylinder to push the piston down=2C it also sends air to > > > the lower cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil > > > that is in there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed > > > PERFECTLY to the engine=2C just like the ignition distributor on your > > > car=2C or the mag on your airplane. Please excuse the language on the > > > net=2C but it is a real SOB to adjust. > > > > > > I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you=2C or have > > > them memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing > > > with it until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand > > > them perfectly. > > > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lan g > > > Sent: Thursday=2C April 08=2C 2010 6:30 AM > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > > Technical advice needed ref starter. I have just purchesed a Yak52 > > > that has apparently had a starter problem since a new engine was inst alled. > > > It seems that there is a sequencing problem of the air going into the > > > cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start=2C and then air appears to > > > blow straight through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns bac kwards. > > > Would it be possible to install the starter spider 180 out? My > > > mechanic and I would appreciate if anyone has faced this problem and found a fix. > > > Is there a mark on the spider or foolproof way of installing the > > > spider that was overlooked by the original mechanics > > > > > > Taa > > > > > > Bill > > > > /157631292/direct/01/' target='_new'>Need a new place to li=== =================== > &g=============== > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > /direct/01/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>Browse profiles for FREE! > > > =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com > llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > ronics.com > ww.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ________________________________ > > Meet local singles online. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Browse profiles for FREE! Meet local singles online. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 From: cjpilot710@aol.com That loud POP you hear is the air solenoid opening. It might be that valv e is not opening thus no air to the starter valve. Have you checked that the engine is actually rotating the shaft for the st arter valve? As I understand it, Air enters the start valve. The valve directs it to a cylinder that is ju st passed TDC of a compression stock. That piston is pushed down rotating all the gearing in the accessory section. That rotation than moves the start valve to the next position. I would remove the starter and pull the engine though, and double check th at engine is rotating the valve drive. Have you had the starter a part? I am not sure how the starter built, but it might be something internal with the starter itself. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby -----Original Message----- From: Bill Lang .au>; Milton Sent: Sat, Jul 17, 2010 3:18 am Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 SITREP 12 Degrees off no 4 pot all set. Zero rotation, just a loud POP of air as the starter is pushed. Pull started and ran it for half hour. Expecting some rotation with starter, but still the POP of air not turning anything .. Very frustrating!! What is encouraging is that the movement of the spider valve is definitely effecting the prop movement on start. 8 degrees seemed the best, so will fiddle around there maybe. The Aussie with the 18T and box of matches might like to come over to Ces snock and do an overnight stocktake for me Any One Bueller? Anyone? Bill > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:13:19 -0400 > From: mark.bitterlich@navy.mil > To: yak-list@matronics.com > , MALS-14 64E" > > That info was pulled from a direct translation of the M-14 manual writte n the folks who made the engine. > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@ matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 7:17 PM > To: Yak List; Tim Windsor > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > Mark > > No worries. Thank you for your efforts , and we will perservere with thi s thing. Nothing cannot be fixed, eventually. Your information is indeed different to what we had been told, so we will concentrate on around 12 degrees. > > Cheers > > Bill > > > ________________________________ > > Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:39:26 -0700 > From: yakplt@yahoo.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > To: yak-list@matronics.com > > > Again Bill, sorry for assuming you were in the United States. Personally , I have to tell you that I enjoyed Australia more than any place I have ever been in my life, and that includes a whole lot of places. I was up in Nowra and made friends with a lot of wonderful folks, so the last thin g I want to do is be a wise-ass to a person who lives in a place I'd like to come back and visit! > > The air distributor is set very much like when timing the mags. You want to set the engine to 12 degrees after top dead center referencing the mas ter cylinder, which is of course cylinder number 4. Again, set the engine to 12 degrees AFTER top dead center on cylinder number four! > > Now adjust the the air distributor so that the slide valve will open the supply of air to the number four cylinder by 1 mm. > > That's the best I can do to help you. I hope it is enough. > > Mark > > > > --- On Sat, 7/10/10, Bill Lang wrote: > > > > From: Bill Lang > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > To: "Yak List" , "Tim Windsor" > Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 8:09 AM > > > Thanks Mark, > > Unfortunately getting Vlad or Dennis to Sydney is a bit beyond my budget . > > I think our next move will be to rig the Scuba air bottle directly to th e spider valve and make small adjustments and port air directly into the spider at each correction. That at least will save reassembly of all comp onents as we try and turn the engine over, and eliminate in all cases any potential problems upstream. > > Bill > > Still in need of ideas > > > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:49:46 -0400 > > From: mark.bitterlich@navy.mil > > To: yak-list@matronics.com > > nt, MALS-14 64E" > > > > When the air-distributor is out of alignment or actually bad, the prop will tend to move a little bit, sometimes actually rotate backwards, and then stop and oscillate with air coming out the exhaust. This sounds to me like exactly what is happening to you. It was mentioned that adjusting this thing is "no big deal". You need to hire that person and have them fix it for you! > > > > I have seen three Russian mechanics flail around with this thing for hours, and for them, it was indeed quite a BIG deal. > > > > If your mechanic can not do it, I am guessing you are going to have to hire someone to come out and do it for you. Recommend Vladimir Yastremski , or Dennis. > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > P.s. One other really long shot possibility. Has ANYONE messed around with the Tach Generator timing housing? Have they taken the tach generato r off, or messed around inside of that area? It is remotely possible that if they have, there is a gear missing from inside that assy, that actuall y turns the air starting distributor. In other words, make darn sure the air-distributor is actually TURNING when you turn the prop by hand. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-serve r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 7:45 AM > > To: Yak List; Tim Windsor > > Subject: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > > > > > Pleading to anybody with detailed advice on how to get my M14P starter to start my M14P > > > > Below is the correspondence so far that you good folks have provided. We have tried several settings on the starter spider, but to no success. The prop turns a few pots, quite slowly it seems, but then stops or =C3 =B6scillates, or blows air out the exhaust > > > > We have access to plenty of air. We have tried direct air to the spide r, eliminating all upstream equipment. We have tried 4, 6 8 12 degrees and still the prop waffles around. The engine starts first pull manually and is NEW, with only 50 hours on it. The starter has never worked on this en gine. We are now driven to distraction as a change in setting of the spide r is very time consuming as you may know. Any thoughts? > > > > Once the engine is warm, the engine (I am told) started first go WITH the air starter. Now this may be because; > > > > 1. engine warm and very easy to start on first rotation or > > 2. maybe on a cold engine, valves are sticking cold, and are freed onc e warmed. but > > > > Mechanic has done cold compression test and all pots exceed required compression limits > > > > Just a tought but is it possible for valves to stick on a cold engine and still show good compression on a compression test? I don't want to th row in a red herring > > > > We are stumped > > > > Any thoughts suggestions instructions (any from left field) most welco me > > > > Helpppp!! > > > > Bill > > ...................................................................... .......................................................................... ............... > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Prop degrees for Housai is 9 degrees, for M14P 8 degrees, both on #4 cylinder after TDC. > > > > > > Gill > > > > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 9:38 PM > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > The mechanic is working on the spider now. He asked me to ask if anyon e knows the number of degrees of prop rotation from TDC to set the spider at, or any other advice for setting it. The instuctions from the M14 manu al are a bit ambiguous. (no access to Housai Manual) > > > > Bill > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: gill.g(at)gpimail.com > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 09:54:17 -0700 > > > > If you have access to a Housai manual, it provides better instructions as it has a diagram. The difference relates to prop gearing. I have reset mine twice after engine disassembly and it's not a big deal. > > > > > > Gill > > > > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:50 PM > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > GOOD FOR YOU! Good job in finding the proper task cards! > > > > > > Let me run my mouth one last time. First, adjusting this thing is a re al pain in the ass. It is hard to get to the nuts and stuff to remove it, it requires you to get the engine set up perfectly, and then insert the thing back in and tighten it down. I have been involved in adjusting it twice, and it was a real ass kicker. > > > > > > Next... make darn sure... let me correct that: MAKE DAMN SURE that you know this is the problem before you remove it from the engine and start trying to re-adjust it. Once you remove it, you have no choice but to fin ish the job. > > > > > > I am not kidding when I tell you that a flow restriction in the air sy stem will cause the exact same problem that you are reporting. > > > > > > Yes, it is most likely that someone messed with this in the past, and just could never get it right again, and this is what you have wrong now. (I.E. > > A misadjusted Air Distributor) The odds are good that this is your pro blem, but as a Tech Rep, my mind always considers the alternatives and you can never rule out ANYTHING unless you verify it as a "known good". That said, if your AIR FLOW to this unit is low, it will do the exact same thi ng you are now reporting. > > > > > > That said, if I was there, I would take my nitrogen bottle with a good regulator and would connect it DIRECTLY to the line going to the air dist ributor and would set it to 730 PSI and would see what happened when I tur ned it on. If the engine does the exact same thing, then you are sure that the distributor is the problem. However, if the engine spins right around perfectly, then you can STOP RIGHT THERE and say "BOY OH BOY IT IS NOT TH E AIR DISTRIBUTOR" and you have saved yourself one HUGE amount of work. > > > > > > Consider this advice carefully. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Bill Lang wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill Lang > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:12 PM > > > > Mark > > Further to my last.. found the ref on George's web site M14 maint Manu al, task card 204. Hope my guy can do it. > > > > Thanks > > Bill > > > > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400 > > > From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > MALS-14 64E" > > > > > > > > > > > > MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment. > > > > > > This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING! > > > > > > There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth tha t > > > has to be JUST right. > > > > > > I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly, I believe he has > > > the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the > > > maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web si te. > > > His site is also a wealth of knowledge. > > > > > > It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees, > > > SAD TO SAY! Without the instructions, I have seen people mess with > > > this thing for days. DAYS! > > > > > > Just FYI, the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to > > > make the piston move. When it is perfectly set up, it not only puts > > > air into one cylinder to push the piston down, it also sends air to > > > the lower cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oi l > > > that is in there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed > > > PERFECTLY to the engine, just like the ignition distributor on your > > > car, or the mag on your airplane. Please excuse the language on the > > > net, but it is a real SOB to adjust. > > > > > > I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you, or have > > > them memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messin g > > > with it until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand > > > them perfectly. > > > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill La ng > > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 6:30 AM > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > > Technical advice needed ref starter. I have just purchesed a Yak52 > > > that has apparently had a starter problem since a new engine was ins talled. > > > It seems that there is a sequencing problem of the air going into th e > > > cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to > > > blow straight through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns ba ckwards. > > > Would it be possible to install the starter spider 180 out? My > > > mechanic and I would appreciate if anyone has faced this problem and found a fix. > > > Is there a mark on the spider or foolproof way of installing the > > > spider that was overlooked by the original mechanics > > > > > > Taa > > > > > > Bill > > > > /157631292/direct/01/' target='_new'>Need a new place to li=== =================== > &g=============== > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > /direct/01/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>Browse profiles for FREE! > > > =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com > llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > ronics.com > ww.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ________________________________ > > Meet local single================= > > > Meet local singles online. ======================== =========== -= - The Yak-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:36 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 According to the Task Card 204 in the M14 manual, the correct procedure is to first position the engine at 12 degrees after TDC on the #4 cylinder. Then rotate the prop in its normal direction back to 8 degrees after TDC. This is where you set the air distributor. The instructions in task card 204 say at this point to set the slide to where the inner hole opens for 1 mm. There is an inner and an outer hole in the air distributor slider. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Lang To: Yak List ; Tim Windsor ; Milton Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:18 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 SITREP 12 Degrees off no 4 pot all set. Zero rotation, just a loud POP of air as the starter is pushed. Pull started and ran it for half hour. Expecting some rotation with starter, but still the POP of air not turning anything. Very frustrating!! What is encouraging is that the movement of the spider valve is definitely effecting the prop movement on start. 8 degrees seemed the best, so will fiddle around there maybe. The Aussie with the 18T and box of matches might like to come over to Cessnock and do an overnight stocktake for me Any One Bueller? Anyone? Bill > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:13:19 -0400 > From: mark.bitterlich@navy.mil > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Point, MALS-14 64E" > > That info was pulled from a direct translation of the M-14 manual written the folks who made the engine. > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 7:17 PM > To: Yak List; Tim Windsor > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > Mark > > No worries. Thank you for your efforts , and we will perservere with this thing. Nothing cannot be fixed, eventually. Your information is indeed different to what we had been told, so we will concentrate on around 12 degrees. > > Cheers > > Bill > > > ________________________________ > > Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:39:26 -0700 > From: yakplt@yahoo.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > To: yak-list@matronics.com > > > Again Bill, sorry for assuming you were in the United States. Personally, I have to tell you that I enjoyed Australia more than any place I have ever been in my life, and that includes a whole lot of places. I was up in Nowra and made friends with a lot of wonderful folks, so the last thing I want to do is be a wise-ass to a person who lives in a place I'd like to come back and visit! > > The air distributor is set very much like when timing the mags. You want to set the engine to 12 degrees after top dead center referencing the master cylinder, which is of course cylinder number 4. Again, set the engine to 12 degrees AFTER top dead center on cylinder number four! > > Now adjust the the air distributor so that the slide valve will open the supply of air to the number four cylinder by 1 mm. > > That's the best I can do to help you. I hope it is enough. > > Mark > > > > --- On Sat, 7/10/10, Bill Lang wrote: > > > > From: Bill Lang > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > To: "Yak List" , "Tim Windsor" > Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 8:09 AM > > > Thanks Mark, > > Unfortunately getting Vlad or Dennis to Sydney is a bit beyond my budget. > > I think our next move will be to rig the Scuba air bottle directly to the spider valve and make small adjustments and port air directly into the spider at each correction. That at least will save reassembly of all components as we try and turn the engine over, and eliminate in all cases any potential problems upstream. > > Bill > > Still in need of ideas > > > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:49:46 -0400 > > From: mark.bitterlich@navy.mil > > To: yak-list@matronics.com > > Point, MALS-14 64E" > > > > When the air-distributor is out of alignment or actually bad, the prop will tend to move a little bit, sometimes actually rotate backwards, and then stop and oscillate with air coming out the exhaust. This sounds to me like exactly what is happening to you. It was mentioned that adjusting this thing is "no big deal". You need to hire that person and have them fix it for you! > > > > I have seen three Russian mechanics flail around with this thing for hours, and for them, it was indeed quite a BIG deal. > > > > If your mechanic can not do it, I am guessing you are going to have to hire someone to come out and do it for you. Recommend Vladimir Yastremski, or Dennis. > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > P.s. One other really long shot possibility. Has ANYONE messed around with the Tach Generator timing housing? Have they taken the tach generator off, or messed around inside of that area? It is remotely possible that if they have, there is a gear missing from inside that assy, that actually turns the air starting distributor. In other words, make darn sure the air-distributor is actually TURNING when you turn the prop by hand. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 7:45 AM > > To: Yak List; Tim Windsor > > Subject: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > > > > > Pleading to anybody with detailed advice on how to get my M14P starter to start my M14P > > > > Below is the correspondence so far that you good folks have provided. We have tried several settings on the starter spider, but to no success. The prop turns a few pots, quite slowly it seems, but then stops or =F6scillates, or blows air out the exhaust > > > > We have access to plenty of air. We have tried direct air to the spider, eliminating all upstream equipment. We have tried 4, 6 8 12 degrees and still the prop waffles around. The engine starts first pull manually and is NEW, with only 50 hours on it. The starter has never worked on this engine. We are now driven to distraction as a change in setting of the spider is very time consuming as you may know. Any thoughts? > > > > Once the engine is warm, the engine (I am told) started first go WITH the air starter. Now this may be because; > > > > 1. engine warm and very easy to start on first rotation or > > 2. maybe on a cold engine, valves are sticking cold, and are freed once warmed. but > > > > Mechanic has done cold compression test and all pots exceed required compression limits > > > > Just a tought but is it possible for valves to stick on a cold engine and still show good compression on a compression test? I don't want to throw in a red herring > > > > We are stumped > > > > Any thoughts suggestions instructions (any from left field) most welcome > > > > Helpppp!! > > > > Bill > > ......................................................................... ......................................................................... ............. > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Prop degrees for Housai is 9 degrees, for M14P 8 degrees, both on #4 cylinder after TDC. > > > > > > Gill > > > > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 9:38 PM > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > The mechanic is working on the spider now. He asked me to ask if anyone knows the number of degrees of prop rotation from TDC to set the spider at, or any other advice for setting it. The instuctions from the M14 manual are a bit ambiguous. (no access to Housai Manual) > > > > Bill > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: gill.g(at)gpimail.com > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 09:54:17 -0700 > > > > If you have access to a Housai manual, it provides better instructions as it has a diagram. The difference relates to prop gearing. I have reset mine twice after engine disassembly and it's not a big deal. > > > > > > Gill > > > > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:50 PM > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > GOOD FOR YOU! Good job in finding the proper task cards! > > > > > > Let me run my mouth one last time. First, adjusting this thing is a real pain in the ass. It is hard to get to the nuts and stuff to remove it, it requires you to get the engine set up perfectly, and then insert the thing back in and tighten it down. I have been involved in adjusting it twice, and it was a real ass kicker. > > > > > > Next... make darn sure... let me correct that: MAKE DAMN SURE that you know this is the problem before you remove it from the engine and start trying to re-adjust it. Once you remove it, you have no choice but to finish the job. > > > > > > I am not kidding when I tell you that a flow restriction in the air system will cause the exact same problem that you are reporting. > > > > > > Yes, it is most likely that someone messed with this in the past, and just could never get it right again, and this is what you have wrong now. (I.E. > > A misadjusted Air Distributor) The odds are good that this is your problem, but as a Tech Rep, my mind always considers the alternatives and you can never rule out ANYTHING unless you verify it as a "known good". That said, if your AIR FLOW to this unit is low, it will do the exact same thing you are now reporting. > > > > > > That said, if I was there, I would take my nitrogen bottle with a good regulator and would connect it DIRECTLY to the line going to the air distributor and would set it to 730 PSI and would see what happened when I turned it on. If the engine does the exact same thing, then you are sure that the distributor is the problem. However, if the engine spins right around perfectly, then you can STOP RIGHT THERE and say "BOY OH BOY IT IS NOT THE AIR DISTRIBUTOR" and you have saved yourself one HUGE amount of work. > > > > > > Consider this advice carefully. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Bill Lang wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill Lang > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:12 PM > > > > Mark > > Further to my last.. found the ref on George's web site M14 maint Manual, task card 204. Hope my guy can do it. > > > > Thanks > > Bill > > > > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400 > > > From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > MALS-14 64E" > > > > > > > > > > > > MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment. > > > > > > This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING! > > > > > > There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that > > > has to be JUST right. > > > > > > I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly, I believe he has > > > the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the > > > maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web site. > > > His site is also a wealth of knowledge. > > > > > > It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees, > > > SAD TO SAY! Without the instructions, I have seen people mess with > > > this thing for days. DAYS! > > > > > > Just FYI, the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to > > > make the piston move. When it is perfectly set up, it not only puts > > > air into one cylinder to push the piston down, it also sends air to > > > the lower cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil > > > that is in there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed > > > PERFECTLY to the engine, just like the ignition distributor on your > > > car, or the mag on your airplane. Please excuse the language on the > > > net, but it is a real SOB to adjust. > > > > > > I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you, or have > > > them memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing > > > with it until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand > > > them perfectly. > > > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 6:30 AM > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > > Technical advice needed ref starter. I have just purchesed a Yak52 > > > that has apparently had a starter problem since a new engine was installed. > > > It seems that there is a sequencing problem of the air going into the > > > cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to > > > blow straight through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns backwards. > > > Would it be possible to install the starter spider 180 out? My > > > mechanic and I would appreciate if anyone has faced this problem and found a fix. > > > Is there a mark on the spider or foolproof way of installing the > > > spider that was overlooked by the original mechanics > > > > > > Taa > > > > > > Bill > > > > /157631292/direct/01/' target='_new'>Need a new place to li====================== > &g=============== > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > /direct/01/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>Browse profiles for FREE! > > > =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com > llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > ronics.com > ww.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ________________________________ > > Meet local single================= > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Meet local singles online. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:58 AM PST US From: Scott Dierolf Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 Bill, I'm including photo's and the procedure I followed on setting the timing for the distributor. Do not feel that you are the only one that has experienced massive frustration on this task, it took me three times just to get it close enough to start the engine, that is where I left it so I can fly this summer. You are defiantly on the right course. Be sure to know that you are aligning two separate things here. Hope this helps, the photos are of the setting where I had success. Hang in there, and good luck Scott Dierolf Timing Start Distributor- M14-P 1) Turn the propeller shaft until the piston of the cylinder number 4 is at 8 degrees after TDC on power stroke as measured at the propeller shaft. Because the gear ratio of the gearbox (0.658) actually the piston is at 12 degrees after TDC if it is considered the crankshaft angle. Remove the plug and the gasket from the top of the air distributor. 2) Remove the air injection lines, supply hose, and tach generator (if installed) from the distributor body. 3) Remove the air distributor assembly. 4) Adjust the position of slide valve of the air distributor on the air distributor cover according to the sketch above- Looking inside of the distribution cover 9 holes correspond to each air start line. Each fitting it is stamped its cylinder number. The slide valve has to be set with the inner window aligned to cylinder #4 with an opening of 1 millimeter over the hole in the rotation sense of the slide valve. Looking on the inside of the air distributor body the rotation sense of the slide valve is counterclockwise. 5) Re-align the driving splines such that the air distributor can be re-installed without disturbing the alignment of the slide valve. 6) Install the air distributor and connect the lines, hose, and tach generator. DO NOT Overtorque the nuts securing the lines to the distributor fittings. SITREP 12 Degrees off no 4 pot all set. Zero rotation, just a loud POP of air as the starter is pushed. Pull started and ran it for half hour. Expecting some rotation with starter, but still the POP of air not turning anything. Very frustrating!! What is encouraging is that the movement of the spider valve is definitely effecting the prop movement on start. 8 degrees seemed the best, so will fiddle around there maybe. The Aussie with the 18T and box of matches might like to come over to Cessnock and do an overnight stocktake for me Any One Bueller? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:18 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Tire Question From: "skidmk" Hi all,,, just did a search and can't find. size for desser main wheel tires on CJ, as well as cleveland size for nose wheel? Plane at hangar, not due to go there for a week. Need to order tires. thanks skidmk -------- Mike "Skidmk" Bourget Ottawa, Ontario Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305178#305178 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tire Question From: Terry Calloway If you just call Desser they know exactly which tire sizes you need for a CJs and Yaks. No need to tell them the sizes just the plane types and they can send them right out. Pumper On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:02 AM, skidmk wrote: > > Hi all,,, just did a search and can't find. size for desser main wheel tires on CJ, as well as cleveland size for nose wheel? > > Plane at hangar, not due to go there for a week. Need to order tires. > > thanks > > skidmk > > -------- > Mike "Skidmk" Bourget > Ottawa, Ontario > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305178#305178 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:02 PM PST US From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Subject: RE: Yak-List: Tire Question Aero Classic Mains 500 x 150 Nose 400 x 150 That is what the YAK 52 uses. If you go on Desser's website they have a chart that you can click on to verify what aircraft you are ordering tires for. Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of skidmk Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:03 AM Subject: Yak-List: Tire Question Hi all,,, just did a search and can't find. size for desser main wheel tires on CJ, as well as cleveland size for nose wheel? Plane at hangar, not due to go there for a week. Need to order tires. thanks skidmk -------- Mike "Skidmk" Bourget Ottawa, Ontario Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305178#305178 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:02 PM PST US From: Yak Pilot Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 Dennis, it looks like my "translation" version on CD missed a step.- Sorr y about that Bill.- But, seriously, being off 4 degrees should not cause that darn thing not to even spin at all.- - Bill, ... Dennis said:---"There is an inner and an outer hole in the air distributor slider."- - Did you catch that?- - Mark --- On Sat, 7/17/10, A. Dennis Savarese wrote : From: A. Dennis Savarese Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 #yiv1749091937 .hmmessage P { PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-TO P:0px;} #yiv1749091937 .hmmessage { FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;FONT-SIZE:10pt;} According to the Task Card 204 in the M14 manual, the correct procedure-i s to first position the engine at 12 degrees after TDC on the #4 cylinder. - Then rotate the prop in its normal direction back to 8 degrees after TD C.- This is where you set the air distributor.- The instructions in tas k card 204 say at this point-to set the slide to where the inner hole ope ns for 1 mm.- There is an inner and an outer hole in the air distributor slider. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Lang Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:18 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 SITREP - 12 Degrees off no 4-pot all set. Zero rotation, just a loud POP of air as the starter is pushed. Pull started and ran it for half hour. Expecting so me rotation with starter, but still the POP of air not turning anything. - Very frustrating!! - What is encouraging is that the movement of the spider valve is definitely effecting the prop movement on start. - 8 degrees seemed the best, so will fiddle around there maybe. - -The Aussie with the 18T and box of matches might like to come over to Ce ssnock and do an overnight stocktake for me - Any One--- Bueller? - Anyone? - - Bill - > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:13:19 -0400 > From: mark.bitterlich@navy.mil > To: yak-list@matronics.com > MALS-14 64E" > > That info was pulled from a direct translation of the M-14 manual written the folks who made the engine. > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 7:17 PM > To: Yak List; Tim Windsor > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > Mark > > No worries. Thank you for your efforts , and we will perservere with this thing. Nothing cannot be fixed, eventually. Your information is indeed dif ferent to what we had been told, so we will concentrate on around 12 degree s. > > Cheers > > Bill > > > ________________________________ > > Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:39:26 -0700 > From: yakplt@yahoo.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > To: yak-list@matronics.com > > > Again Bill, sorry for assuming you were in the United States. Personally, I have to tell you that I enjoyed Australia more than any place I have eve r been in my life, and that includes a whole lot of places. I was up in Now ra and made friends with a lot of wonderful folks, so the last thing I want to do is be a wise-ass to a person who lives in a place I'd like to come b ack and visit! > > The air distributor is set very much like when timing the mags. You want to set the engine to 12 degrees after top dead center referencing the maste r cylinder, which is of course cylinder number 4. Again, set the engine to 12 degrees AFTER top dead center on cylinder number four! > > Now adjust the the air distributor so that the slide valve will open the supply of air to the number four cylinder by 1 mm. > > That's the best I can do to help you. I hope it is enough. > > Mark > > > > --- On Sat, 7/10/10, Bill Lang wrote: > > > > From: Bill Lang > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > To: "Yak List" , "Tim Windsor" > Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 8:09 AM > > > Thanks Mark, > > Unfortunately getting Vlad or Dennis to Sydney is a bit beyond my budget. > > I think our next move will be to rig the Scuba air bottle directly to the spider valve and make small adjustments and port air directly into the spi der at each correction. That at least will save reassembly of all component s as we try and turn the engine over, and eliminate in all cases any potent ial problems upstream. > > Bill > > Still in need of ideas > > > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:49:46 -0400 > > From: mark.bitterlich@navy.mil > > To: yak-list@matronics.com > > t, MALS-14 64E" > > > > When the air-distributor is out of alignment or actually bad, the prop will tend to move a little bit, sometimes actually rotate backwards, and th en stop and oscillate with air coming out the exhaust. This sounds to me li ke exactly what is happening to you. It was mentioned that adjusting this t hing is "no big deal". You need to hire that person and have them fix it fo r you! > > > > I have seen three Russian mechanics flail around with this thing for ho urs, and for them, it was indeed quite a BIG deal. > > > > If your mechanic can not do it, I am guessing you are going to have to hire someone to come out and do it for you. Recommend Vladimir Yastremski, or Dennis. > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > P.s. One other really long shot possibility. Has ANYONE messed around w ith the Tach Generator timing housing? Have they taken the tach generator o ff, or messed around inside of that area? It is remotely possible that if t hey have, there is a gear missing from inside that assy, that actually turn s the air starting distributor. In other words, make darn sure the air-dist ributor is actually TURNING when you turn the prop by hand. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server @matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 7:45 AM > > To: Yak List; Tim Windsor > > Subject: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 > > > > > > Pleading to anybody with detailed advice on how to get my M14P starter to start my M14P > > > > Below is the correspondence so far that you good folks have provided. W e have tried several settings on the starter spider, but to no success. The prop turns a few pots, quite slowly it seems, but then stops or =F6scillat es, or blows air out the exhaust > > > > We have access to plenty of air. We have tried direct air to the spider , eliminating all upstream equipment. We have tried 4, 6 8 12 degrees and s till the prop waffles around. The engine starts first pull manually and is NEW, with only 50 hours on it. The starter has never worked on this engine. We are now driven to distraction as a change in setting of the spider is v ery time consuming as you may know. Any thoughts? > > > > Once the engine is warm, the engine (I am told) started first go WITH t he air starter. Now this may be because; > > > > 1. engine warm and very easy to start on first rotation or > > 2. maybe on a cold engine, valves are sticking cold, and are freed once warmed. but > > > > Mechanic has done cold compression test and all pots exceed required co mpression limits > > > > Just a tought but is it possible for valves to stick on a cold engine a nd still show good compression on a compression test? I don't want to throw in a red herring > > > > We are stumped > > > > Any thoughts suggestions instructions (any from left field) most welcom e > > > > Helpppp!! > > > > Bill > > ....................................................................... ........................................................................... ............. > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Prop degrees for Housai is 9 degrees, for M14P 8 degrees, both on #4 cy linder after TDC. > > > > > > Gill > > > > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lang > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 9:38 PM > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > The mechanic is working on the spider now. He asked me to ask if anyone knows the number of degrees of prop rotation from TDC to set the spider at , or any other advice for setting it. The instuctions from the M14 manual a re a bit ambiguous. (no access to Housai Manual) > > > > Bill > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: gill.g(at)gpimail.com > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 09:54:17 -0700 > > > > If you have access to a Housai manual, it provides better instructions as it has a diagram. The difference relates to prop gearing. I have reset m ine twice after engine disassembly and it's not a big deal. > > > > > > Gill > > > > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:50 PM > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > GOOD FOR YOU! Good job in finding the proper task cards! > > > > > > Let me run my mouth one last time. First, adjusting this thing is a rea l pain in the ass. It is hard to get to the nuts and stuff to remove it, it requires you to get the engine set up perfectly, and then insert the thing back in and tighten it down. I have been involved in adjusting it twice, a nd it was a real ass kicker. > > > > > > Next... make darn sure... let me correct that: MAKE DAMN SURE that you know this is the problem before you remove it from the engine and start try ing to re-adjust it. Once you remove it, you have no choice but to finish t he job. > > > > > > I am not kidding when I tell you that a flow restriction in the air sys tem will cause the exact same problem that you are reporting. > > > > > > Yes, it is most likely that someone messed with this in the past, and j ust could never get it right again, and this is what you have wrong now. (I .E. > > A misadjusted Air Distributor) The odds are good that this is your prob lem, but as a Tech Rep, my mind always considers the alternatives and you c an never rule out ANYTHING unless you verify it as a "known good". That sai d, if your AIR FLOW to this unit is low, it will do the exact same thing yo u are now reporting. > > > > > > That said, if I was there, I would take my nitrogen bottle with a good regulator and would connect it DIRECTLY to the line going to the air distri butor and would set it to 730 PSI and would see what happened when I turned it on. If the engine does the exact same thing, then you are sure that the distributor is the problem. However, if the engine spins right around perf ectly, then you can STOP RIGHT THERE and say "BOY OH BOY IT IS NOT THE AIR DISTRIBUTOR" and you have saved yourself one HUGE amount of work. > > > > > > Consider this advice carefully. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > > > --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Bill Lang wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill Lang > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:12 PM > > > > Mark > > Further to my last.. found the ref on George's web site M14 maint Manua l, task card 204. Hope my guy can do it. > > > > Thanks > > Bill > > > > > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:38 -0400 > > > From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > MALS-14 64E" > > > > > > > > > > > > MOST LIKELY: Your air distributor is out of alignment. > > > > > > This is a tedious and exacting job. VERY TEDIOUS AND VERY EXACTING! > > > > > > There is a little gear in there with many little itsy tiny teeth that > > > has to be JUST right. > > > > > > I would suggest you contact Dennis Savarese directly, I believe he ha s > > > the procedure written out and ready to send. It is addressed in the > > > maint. Cards for the engine. It might also be at George Coy's web sit e. > > > His site is also a wealth of knowledge. > > > > > > It is much MUCH more complicated than just spinning it 180 degrees, > > > SAD TO SAY! Without the instructions, I have seen people mess with > > > this thing for days. DAYS! > > > > > > Just FYI, the thing does more than just put air into a cylinder to > > > make the piston move. When it is perfectly set up, it not only puts > > > air into one cylinder to push the piston down, it also sends air to > > > the lower cylinders WITH THE EXHAUST VALVES OPEN to help push any oil > > > that is in there right out the exhaust. But it has to be timed > > > PERFECTLY to the engine, just like the ignition distributor on your > > > car, or the mag on your airplane. Please excuse the language on the > > > net, but it is a real SOB to adjust. > > > > > > I am sorry that I do not have the instructions to give you, or have > > > them memorized... But I will tell you to not even think about messing > > > with it until you have the instructions fully in hand and understand > > > them perfectly. > > > > > > Mark Bitterlich > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lan g > > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 6:30 AM > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > Subject: Yak-List: Yak 52 Starter Sequence? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > > Technical advice needed ref starter. I have just purchesed a Yak52 > > > that has apparently had a starter problem since a new engine was inst alled. > > > It seems that there is a sequencing problem of the air going into the > > > cylinders. It turns a few degrees on start, and then air appears to > > > blow straight through the cylinder to exhaust. Sometimes it turns bac kwards. > > > Would it be possible to install the starter spider 180 out? My > > > mechanic and I would appreciate if anyone has faced this problem and found a fix. > > > Is there a mark on the spider or foolproof way of installing the > > > spider that was overlooked by the original mechanics > > > > > > Taa > > > > > > Bill > > > > /157631292/direct/01/' target='_new'>Need a new place to li=== =================== > &g=============== > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > /direct/01/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>Browse profiles for FREE! > > > =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com > llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > ronics.com > ww.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ________________________________ > > Meet local single================= > > > Meet local singles online. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:09 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tire Question Cleveland nose tire is 600 x 6. FWIW, Doug Sapp has the main wheel tires and tubes in stock. 1/2 the price of the new Desser tires. You will have to call Desser for the nose wheel tire and tube though. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Kemp M.D. To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:40 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: Tire Question Aero Classic Mains 500 x 150 Nose 400 x 150 That is what the YAK 52 uses. If you go on Desser's website they have a chart that you can click on to verify what aircraft you are ordering tires for. Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of skidmk Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:03 AM To: yak-list@matronics.com Subject: Yak-List: Tire Question Hi all,,, just did a search and can't find. size for desser main wheel tires on CJ, as well as cleveland size for nose wheel? Plane at hangar, not due to go there for a week. Need to order tires. thanks skidmk -------- Mike "Skidmk" Bourget Ottawa, Ontario Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305178#305178 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:20 PM PST US From: Warren Hill Subject: Re: Yak-List: Tire Question Dennis, Did you mean the 15 / 600 x 6? The regular 600 x 6 is too large, at least for the CJ. The wheel for the Cessna 337 nose wheel works well for this. Warren Hill On Jul 17, 2010, at 1:45 PM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote: > Cleveland nose tire is 600 x 6. FWIW, Doug Sapp has the main wheel tires and tubes in stock. 1/2 the price of the new Desser tires. You will have to call Desser for the nose wheel tire and tube though. > Dennis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Roger Kemp M.D. > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:40 PM > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Tire Question > > > Aero Classic Mains 500 x 150 > Nose 400 x 150 > That is what the YAK 52 uses. If you go on Desser's website they have a > chart that you can click on to verify what aircraft you are ordering tires > for. > Doc > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of skidmk > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:03 AM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Yak-List: Tire Question > > > Hi all,,, just did a search and can't find. size for desser main wheel > tires on CJ, as well as cleveland size for nose wheel? > > Plane at hangar, not due to go there for a week. Need to order tires. > > thanks > > skidmk > > -------- > Mike "Skidmk" Bourget > Ottawa, Ontario > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305178#305178 > > > http://www.matronics================== ======<; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > _p; generous bsp; href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c= =============== > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:00 PM PST US From: William Scully Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequence M14 Hi Scott; sorry , believe you reached the wrong "Bill". Never asked this =0Aquestion. Good Luck.=0A---------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- -----------=0A Regards:=0A--------- ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- ---------------Bill=0A Scully----- ------- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Scott Dierolf =0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent : Sat, July 17, 2010 6:47:15 AM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: RE: Starter sequen ce M14=0A=0A=0ABill,=0A=0AI'm including photo's and the procedure I followe d on setting the timing for the =0Adistributor. Do not feel that you are th e only one that has experienced massive =0Afrustration on this task, it too k me three times just to get it close enough to =0Astart the engine, that i s where I left it so I can fly this summer. You are =0Adefiantly on the rig ht course. Be sure to know that you are aligning two =0Aseparate things her e. =0A=0A=0AHope this helps, the photos are of the setting where I had succ ess. Hang in =0Athere, and good luck=0A=0AScott Dierolf=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ATi ming Start Distributor- M14-P-- =0A=0A1)- Turn the propeller shaft un til the piston of the cylinder number 4 is at 8 =0Adegrees after TDC on pow er stroke as measured at the propeller shaft. Because =0Athe gear ratio of the gearbox (0.658) actually the piston is at 12 degrees after =0ATDC if it is considered the crankshaft angle. Remove the plug and the gasket =0Afrom the top of the air distributor. =0A=0A-=0A2) Remove the air injection li nes, supply hose, and tach generator (if =0Ainstalled) from the distributor body.=0A=0A3) Remove the air distributor assembly.=0A=0A4) Adjust the posi tion of slide valve of the air distributor on the air =0Adistributor cover according to the sketch above-=0A=0ALooking inside of the distribution cove r 9 holes correspond to each air start =0Aline. =0A=0A=0AEach fitting it is stamped its cylinder number.=0A=0AThe slide valve has to be set with the i nner window aligned to cylinder #4 with =0Aan opening of 1 millimeter over the hole in the rotation sense of the slide =0Avalve.- Looking on the ins ide of the air distributor body the rotation sense of =0Athe slide valve is counterclockwise.=0A=0A5) Re-align the driving splines such that the air d istributor can be =0Are-installed without disturbing the alignment of the s lide valve.=0A=0A6) Install the air distributor and connect the lines, hose , and tach generator.=0A=0ADO NOT Overtorque the nuts securing the lines to the distributor fittings.=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0ASITREP=0A-=0A12 Degrees off n o 4-pot all set. Zero rotation, just a loud POP of air as the =0Astarter is pushed. Pull started and ran it for half hour. Expecting some =0Arotatio n with starter, but still the POP of air not turning anything.=0A-=0AVery frustrating!!=0A-=0AWhat is encouraging is that the movement of the spid er valve is definitely =0Aeffecting the prop movement on start.=0A-=0A8 d egrees seemed the best, so will fiddle around there maybe.=0A-=0A-The A ussie with the 18T and box of matches might like to come over to Cessnock =0Aand do an overnight stocktake for me=0A-=0AAny One--- Bueller? =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:27 PM PST US From: "Chris Wise" Subject: Re: Yak-List: WhirlWind Propellers New composite blades Yep, they do look good. I am running a set of GT blades on our Yak 18T. Here in Australia we have had a very wet season up North in country that is designated remote and is normally as dry as hell. This vast area has had the best rainfall for 20 years. We decided to spend 10 days flying around this area and combining this with a fly-in up north before I have to have a shoulder op. Absolutely spectacular with so much water and we have a Lake Eyre that is huge and is fed by 3 rivers which have been in flood. So much so that there are charter operators flying in from all over Australia and 1 guy has established charter operations near the lake operating about 5 X 210's, Stationar and 2 Airvans. I have not done my sums yet, but total flying time was 1458 min, 24.3 hours. The GT prop without any doubt at all performed just great. Better speed and a better takeoff performance with a full load out of remote strips on cattle stations and so on. I am very pleased. I would suggest that the Whirlwind would offer a similar performance and both are worth looking at. It probably is not before time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "flyinlow4u" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:19 AM Subject: Yak-List: WhirlWind Propellers New composite blades > > Just trying to get the word out there, these are very nice blades. I have > a set on my Yak 52. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304821#304821 > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:36 PM PST US From: "Chris Wise" Subject: Re: Yak-List: YAK starting problems I know of the trip that Phil is talking about. We have just spent 10 days from South Australia flying around the same areas and encountered some extremely cold mornings. 17 miles out of an outback town (If one could call it that) we encountered real heavy rain and got down on the deck but decided not worth the risk. Landed on a strip at a outback cattle station and spent the night there only to wake up the next morning to find the 18T down to the axles in mud from all the overnight rain. Point is that in the cold weather, ignition OFF and prime whilst someone turning the prop over and wait for a min or so before starting. I have never had a problem with cold starts. And we did have some real cold mornings and the Old Girl sitting outside all night. Mind you, I am not talking about the freezing temps as in the US, Europe or the UK, but it still gets dammed cold hear in Australia. I have a friend that carries out this proceedure every time he starts his 18T and it fires up instantly. Cheers, Chris. ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Wobschall To: yak-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 9:26 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: YAK starting problems Fun story. Good thing I wore my Australian phraseology guessing hat. Time spent getting one's 18T running is still a lot more fun than real work, especially with the right companion. On Jul 11, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Phil Gower wrote: Hello all, have been keenly following the latest postings re the electronic ignition ideas as well as how easy it it to hand prop the M14P (from Bill Lang). Have just returned from what was to be a long tour around outback Australia and it turned out to be 'if I knew then what I know now' story. If interested read about it by clicking on the following link:- http://rappsystemscomau.melbourneitwebsites.com/auth/main/sb/preview/stag e/page/vh_ykv.html No doubt the 'old stagers' know about these things but it is posted here for 'new chums' Regards, Phil Gower. p.s. as an electrical engineer if I can offer my services to any ideas re electronic ignition then I would be happy to assist. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Yak-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:10 PM PST US From: "Joe Howse" Subject: Yak-List: AIR START FIXTURE 3 pictures for you INTERESTING FIXTURE FOR HOLDING AIRSTART SLIDE VALVE IN POSITION FOR ASSEMBLY IT IS CHINESE, MADE FOR THE HUOSAI ENGINE, BUT WORKS ON THE M14 WITH MY MOD PLATE. JOE 1 of 3: Desktop\2010-05-19\2010-07-17\IM001058.jpg 2 of 3: Desktop\2010-05-19\2010-07-17\IM001059.jpg 3 of 3: Desktop\2010-05-19\2010-07-17\IM001060.jpg These pictures were sent with Picasa, from Google. Try it out here: http://picasa.google.com/ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:07 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: AIR START FIXTURE From: "Noplugs" OK...where do I get one? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305264#305264 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:39 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: M14P Magneto From: "flyayak" Hi YAK-Folks, first of all I want to thank you all for this great forum. It helps me a lot to solve several problems with my YAK 52 in the past. Now I have a question to all of you M14P experts. A few weeks ago, while riding in my YAK with 82% and climbing, after 20 minutes the engine stops two times short one after another only for a heartbeat. I stopped climbing immediately and closed the throttle. After that, I noticed a loss of power, while the engine runs smooth again. After checking the mags, with no noticeable problems I went back to the airfield, landed and while shutting down the prob it turned backwards a few cycles, which it hasnt done for the last 120 hours. I pulled the plugs (Dennis automotive conversion kit was installed two years ago and the plugs were till the last 30 hours) and they have showed a white surface, so it seems that the mixture was too lean. Therefore I changed the diaphragm of the carb, which was already inside since the last 25 years (!). It looks a bit crumpled but without any cracks. While test running the engine after this with the cowling off, it runs great on ground and shows every values in an acceptable range. After putting the cowling back on again I did a test run again and while switching to magneto #2 it stops intermittently for a second or so and shows also on both magnetos an excessive drop of rpm, that means round about 6-7%. It was a very hot day with outside temperatures of about 36C. At the moment it is very hot in Germany.... So, my question is, is it possible, that both coils in the mags went TU (I like this expression ;-)) while the engine get (very) hot? Any other advices? Thanks a lot in advance. Best regards Stefan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305269#305269 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.