Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - Re: Re: Electric Pump : was : M14P Magneto (Didier Blouzard)
2. 02:36 AM - Re: The Hydraulic lock (psb777)
3. 02:50 AM - Re: Electric Pump : was : M14P Magneto (psb777)
4. 03:08 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Jan Mevis)
5. 03:37 AM - Mogas and the M14P (again!) (psb777)
6. 05:11 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Roger Kemp M.D.)
8. 05:53 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 07:01 AM - Re: The Hydraulic lock (psb777)
10. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (bu131@swbell.net)
11. 07:26 AM - Re: The Hydraulic lock (psb777)
12. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Roger Kemp M.D.)
13. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (doug sapp)
14. 09:31 AM - Mogas (Richard Goode)
15. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (A. Dennis Savarese)
16. 11:44 AM - Re: Magneto Maintenance (Paul Lewis)
17. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (John Fischer)
18. 01:43 PM - Re: Magneto Maintenance (dabear)
19. 02:36 PM - Re: Magneto Maintenance (dabear)
20. 02:53 PM - Re: Mogas (psb777)
21. 03:33 PM - Re: Mogas and the M14P (again!) (Didier Blouzard)
22. 03:51 PM - CJ W&B version 5 WAS: Magneto Maintenance (dabear)
23. 03:53 PM - Re: Magneto Maintenance (A. Dennis Savarese)
24. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: The Hydraulic lock (Didier Blouzard)
25. 04:01 PM - Re: Magneto Maintenance (Didier Blouzard)
26. 08:27 PM - Re: Magneto Maintenance (Roger Kemp M.D.)
27. 08:51 PM - Yak 52 Forward Mag Switch Problem ()
28. 11:00 PM - Re: CJ W&B version 5 WAS: Magneto Maintenance (Kurt Howerton)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Pump : was : M14P Magneto |
Hi Vic,
sorry I am in holydays and have a poor connection.
I will be able to see the pics as soon as I arrive in a hotel with a real
internet connection.
Do you think I can install this kind of pump by myself???
Thanks very much for all your infos.
regards
Didier
2010/7/21 Vic <vicmolnar@aol.com>
>
> Hi Didier,
>
> look at the photo at the bottom of my previous posting showing the
> installation in the 18 T. The pumps are Pierburg 24 V and 0,5 bar, ~ 9
0.- .
> The whole set is homemade and sits under the rear floor in front of the
> service tank including an extra one-way valve.
> Vic
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305715#305715
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
Didier BLOUZARD
didier.blouzard@gmail.com
0624243672
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Francois's very unfortunate experience was a consequence, it is acknowledged, of
there being an accumulation of oil in the inlet manifold, and the anti-lock
procedure used now known not to be comprehensively correct. I do not think the
idea to modify this procedure next time to again swing the prop after replacing
the plugs would have helped, necessarily. Cold possibly congealed oil in
the inlet manifold might not have been cleared by the extra swinging (the air
path not being completely blocked, or air bubbling through), and the oil would
still have been sucked in just after the start.
Hydraulic lock is such a worry to us all. Whereas the oil tank tap and the scavenger
pump would be nice things to fit to my 18T there are unintended consequences,
perhaps, to doing such mods. They themselves can, potentially cause things
to break. E.g. The tap could be left switched off and that will ruin your engine
also. And the the starter interlock to prevent this could stop working
- how would you know? It would be another thing to test periodically. Certainly
I would want to put checking that the starter doesn't work with the tap off
into my startup checklist. I think that the addition of extra bits and pieces
can sometimes make the whole assembly more prone to failure.
A case in point - at the time I bought my 18T inlet manifold drains were fitted
so as to help prevent hydraulic lock. But twice now I have got back on the ground
to find they had been open throughout the flight. OK, no big consequence,
but I am an idiot, and there is no compensating for that.
I left my 18T unflown in a hangar five months over the Winter. On returning to
it there was a large pool of oil in the drip tray. The oil dipstick read 5.
The a/c was dragged out into the sun. I added 5 litres of oil, all that I had.
I swung the prop and what looked like another litre of oil emerged from exhaust
pipes and inlet drains. I waited and swung again. More oil, but not as
much. I waited and swung again. A few drops only. I closed the inlet drains,
alternated each primer stroke with a prop blade pull, and depressed the drains
momentarily to let excess liquid fuel escape. After the second unsuccessful
start attempt I started again, opening the drains, swinging the prop, repriming
etc etc. The engine started on the third attempt, just as the air was about
to be exhausted, in an unsually large cloud of smoke. I went flying.
Before the next flight I dipped the oil tank to find it reading more than 12.
5+5=10. So over two litres of oil had been in the sump and/or cupped inside the
lower pistons when I had started the engine the first time.
But had that constituted a risk of hydraulic lock? No, I suggest, not if you follow
the procedure I did. There was no substantial oil in the cylinder heads,
and there was not enough time given for any meaningful quantity to leak past
the rings. And the inlet manifold was clear.
I cannot see how the combination of swinging the prop (and repeating if oil emerges)
and fitting inlet manifold drains (and leaving them open between flights)
should fail to prevent hydraulic lock. Also, no matter how much extra kit I
fit, the swinging of the prop and the inlet drains would remain necessary. So
I think I won't be fitting other stuff that might break.
I worry that I am tempting fate, and that my next posting could be to report a
disaster. [On the other hand we're so worried about hydraulic lock that we think
it possible or even simple to bend a con rod by pulling on the end of the
prop - surely that is a nonsense!?!] Anyway, I'm very willing to listen to all
dissenting opinion.
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305905#305905
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Pump : was : M14P Magneto |
Vic wrote:
> Hi Didier,
>
> look at the photo at the bottom of my previous posting showing the installation
in the 18 T. The pumps are Pierburg 24 V and 0,5 bar, ~ 90.- . The whole set
is homemade and sits under the rear floor in front of the service tank including
an extra one-way valve.
> Vic
Vic, the electric fuel pumps are fitted in series to the mechanical pump, is that
correct? If the mechanical pump fails can the electric pumps push the fuel
through the broken mechanical pump?!?!?
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305906#305906
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Anyway, since I recently hand-started the engine unwillingly (one hot mag,
no P-Lead connected, my stupid error!), I'm very reluctant to stand just in
front and swing the prop by pulling on the blades in the middle. Since this
bad experience, I'm again very suspicious about touching props on an engine.
So I pull the blades at the tip, keeping a good distance, and I do it
slowly! It takes a few minutes more. But I'm mentally prepared for an
unwanted start of the engine.
Second, I want the parking brakes checked, and if I'm alone and there's
nobody in the cockpit, I even prefer to put big blocks in front of the main
wheels. All too often I've seen a Yak move forward as soon as the engine
starts.
And for what it's worth: if you can manage to have someone being in the
neighborhood when starting up (and when shutting down), it's better. Give
them a fire extinguisher, just as the military did and still do. I've also
seen an M14P take fire several times. When you're alone and in the cockpit,
it 'll take a while before you notice that!
Exagerated? Maybe.
Only my 2 cents,
Jan
YK50 RA2005K
YK52 RA1453K
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of psb777
Sent: donderdag 22 juli 2010 11:36
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Francois's very unfortunate experience was a consequence, it is
acknowledged, of there being an accumulation of oil in the inlet manifold,
and the anti-lock procedure used now known not to be comprehensively
correct. I do not think the idea to modify this procedure next time to
again swing the prop after replacing the plugs would have helped,
necessarily. Cold possibly congealed oil in the inlet manifold might not
have been cleared by the extra swinging (the air path not being completely
blocked, or air bubbling through), and the oil would still have been sucked
in just after the start.
Hydraulic lock is such a worry to us all. Whereas the oil tank tap and the
scavenger pump would be nice things to fit to my 18T there are unintended
consequences, perhaps, to doing such mods. They themselves can, potentially
cause things to break. E.g. The tap could be left switched off and that will
ruin your engine also. And the the starter interlock to prevent this could
stop working - how would you know? It would be another thing to test
periodically. Certainly I would want to put checking that the starter
doesn't work with the tap off into my startup checklist. I think that the
addition of extra bits and pieces can sometimes make the whole assembly more
prone to failure.
A case in point - at the time I bought my 18T inlet manifold drains were
fitted so as to help prevent hydraulic lock. But twice now I have got back
on the ground to find they had been open throughout the flight. OK, no big
consequence, but I am an idiot, and there is no compensating for that.
I left my 18T unflown in a hangar five months over the Winter. On returning
to it there was a large pool of oil in the drip tray. The oil dipstick read
5. The a/c was dragged out into the sun. I added 5 litres of oil, all that
I had. I swung the prop and what looked like another litre of oil emerged
from exhaust pipes and inlet drains. I waited and swung again. More oil,
but not as much. I waited and swung again. A few drops only. I closed the
inlet drains, alternated each primer stroke with a prop blade pull, and
depressed the drains momentarily to let excess liquid fuel escape. After
the second unsuccessful start attempt I started again, opening the drains,
swinging the prop, repriming etc etc. The engine started on the third
attempt, just as the air was about to be exhausted, in an unsually large
cloud of smoke. I went flying.
Before the next flight I dipped the oil tank to find it reading more than
12. 5+5=10. So over two litres of oil had been in the sump and/or cupped
inside the lower pistons when I had started the engine the first time.
But had that constituted a risk of hydraulic lock? No, I suggest, not if
you follow the procedure I did. There was no substantial oil in the
cylinder heads, and there was not enough time given for any meaningful
quantity to leak past the rings. And the inlet manifold was clear.
I cannot see how the combination of swinging the prop (and repeating if oil
emerges) and fitting inlet manifold drains (and leaving them open between
flights) should fail to prevent hydraulic lock. Also, no matter how much
extra kit I fit, the swinging of the prop and the inlet drains would remain
necessary. So I think I won't be fitting other stuff that might break.
I worry that I am tempting fate, and that my next posting could be to report
a disaster. [On the other hand we're so worried about hydraulic lock that
we think it possible or even simple to bend a con rod by pulling on the end
of the prop - surely that is a nonsense!?!] Anyway, I'm very willing to
listen to all dissenting opinion.
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305905#305905
Message 5
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| Subject: | Mogas and the M14P (again!) |
This subject has been done to death, so it seems, and I think I have read much
(maybe all) posted here about mogas in recent months. Sorry to open it up again.
I am currently tempted to put mogas into my 18T. I am currently in France and,
as Didier reported in another thread, avgas is in short supply. Certainly, here
in the SE, no one is admitting to having any, and I have the last (so they
said) from Cannes Mandelieu in my tanks. Near me, at Gap-Tallard aerodrome,
there is a mogas [MON/RON=88/97] pump and I am told there is no alcohol in that
mogas. Can I use it? I think not. [But please persuade me otherwise!]
The M14P Maintenance Manual says that the fuel must meet "B91/115 GOST 1012-72
octane rating at least 91".
There are different definitions of octane rating. According to my perhaps flawed
reading in the West a 88/97 octane rating is MON=88, RON=97. If a single figure
is quoted this can be either but is usually the lower, the MON, or sometimes
the AKI [the average(?) of the MON and RON].
Whatever, it does seem there is good reason to think 88/97 mogas is NOT good enough.
In the appendix of the manual B91/115 is explicitly stated to be MON-.5
and RON=126. There is also a much lower spec of fuel in the manual but UPON
CAREFUL READING this is the spec of gasoline good enough merely to CLEAN the M14P!
On this forum I have read that our engines were designed for 70 octane. But I have
read that only here. Was that possibly for the very original non-supercharged
designs?
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305908#305908
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Intake manifold drains do not "prevent" hydraulic lock from occurring.
They are there to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock occurring by
draining any oil that accumulates in the intake tubes. Draining the
intake tubes reduces the possibility of oil being sucked into the lower
cylinders when the engine is started.
Take a lesson from the T6 guys. Have you ever noticed at various air
shows or fly ins that some T-6's have a tube/small hose with a milk jug
or something similar under the cowl? It is to drain the sump after
shutdown. On an M14, if you connect a hose on the sump drain where the
chip detector screen is located and allow the oil to drain into a CLEAN
container, the oil that typically causes hydraulic lock by spilling over
into the lower cylinders, will be drained into the container. Then
during pre-flight, pour the oil back into the oil tank and close the
sump drain.
A friend of mine came up with a really neat sump drain and we have
installed this very simple sump drain on other M14's. It really works!
Using a 90 degree AN fitting on the sump drain (1/8 NPT to 1/4" hose
barb), tap the sump drain and install the AN fitting with the barb end
pointing to the right (when looking at the front of the engine). Then
attach 1/4" blue silicone hose (secure with a small hose clamp) from the
barb end of the AN fitting and run it back to the firewall through the
opening between the cowl pads on the engine baffling. Next,
install/mount a fuel quick disconnect available from Aircraft Spruce on
the mount of the coarse (yellow) fuel screen using two Adel clamps.
Connect the blue, 1/4" hose to the fuel quick disconnect and secure with
hose clamps. On the open end of the fuel quick disconnect, attach
another piece of hose and place the open end into a clean 2 gallon/8-10
liter plastic gas container available at your local auto supply store.
The quick disconnect is the neat part. Press the button on the quick
disconnect, and the end with the long hose into the drain container is
removed. When you land, simply press it back into the other end of the
quick disconnect and it snaps (literally) in place. You can reach
through the cooling louvers on the cowl to open and close the sump drain
and reinstall the safety clip.
This sump drain only fits on the straight sump drains. Not the 90
degree sump drains which are attached below the chip detector. The AN
fitting won't clear the cowl.
The root of the problem is of course the oil leaking down after engine
shut down through the oil pump. It can be stopped by installing the Jim
Kimball oil shut off kit OR by having the oil pump repaired, which is
why the oil is leaking down in the first place. There is an internal
valve in the oil pump which Jill so nicely described in the RPA magazine
last year that may not fully close. When it does not close, it allows
the oil from the tank to flow through the oil pump and into the engine
which then ends up in the sump. When the sump fills, the oil spills
over into the lower cylinders. And everyone knows what that means.
If anyone wants pictures of this simple sump drain installation, email
me off list and I will be happy to send some pictures of the
installation.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: psb777
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:36 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Francois's very unfortunate experience was a consequence, it is
acknowledged, of there being an accumulation of oil in the inlet
manifold, and the anti-lock procedure used now known not to be
comprehensively correct. I do not think the idea to modify this
procedure next time to again swing the prop after replacing the plugs
would have helped, necessarily. Cold possibly congealed oil in the
inlet manifold might not have been cleared by the extra swinging (the
air path not being completely blocked, or air bubbling through), and the
oil would still have been sucked in just after the start.
Hydraulic lock is such a worry to us all. Whereas the oil tank tap and
the scavenger pump would be nice things to fit to my 18T there are
unintended consequences, perhaps, to doing such mods. They themselves
can, potentially cause things to break. E.g. The tap could be left
switched off and that will ruin your engine also. And the the starter
interlock to prevent this could stop working - how would you know? It
would be another thing to test periodically. Certainly I would want to
put checking that the starter doesn't work with the tap off into my
startup checklist. I think that the addition of extra bits and pieces
can sometimes make the whole assembly more prone to failure.
A case in point - at the time I bought my 18T inlet manifold drains
were fitted so as to help prevent hydraulic lock. But twice now I have
got back on the ground to find they had been open throughout the flight.
OK, no big consequence, but I am an idiot, and there is no compensating
for that.
I left my 18T unflown in a hangar five months over the Winter. On
returning to it there was a large pool of oil in the drip tray. The oil
dipstick read 5. The a/c was dragged out into the sun. I added 5
litres of oil, all that I had. I swung the prop and what looked like
another litre of oil emerged from exhaust pipes and inlet drains. I
waited and swung again. More oil, but not as much. I waited and swung
again. A few drops only. I closed the inlet drains, alternated each
primer stroke with a prop blade pull, and depressed the drains
momentarily to let excess liquid fuel escape. After the second
unsuccessful start attempt I started again, opening the drains, swinging
the prop, repriming etc etc. The engine started on the third attempt,
just as the air was about to be exhausted, in an unsually large cloud of
smoke. I went flying.
Before the next flight I dipped the oil tank to find it reading more
than 12. 5+5=10. So over two litres of oil had been in the sump
and/or cupped inside the lower pistons when I had started the engine the
first time.
But had that constituted a risk of hydraulic lock? No, I suggest, not
if you follow the procedure I did. There was no substantial oil in the
cylinder heads, and there was not enough time given for any meaningful
quantity to leak past the rings. And the inlet manifold was clear.
I cannot see how the combination of swinging the prop (and repeating
if oil emerges) and fitting inlet manifold drains (and leaving them open
between flights) should fail to prevent hydraulic lock. Also, no matter
how much extra kit I fit, the swinging of the prop and the inlet drains
would remain necessary. So I think I won't be fitting other stuff that
might break.
I worry that I am tempting fate, and that my next posting could be to
report a disaster. [On the other hand we're so worried about hydraulic
lock that we think it possible or even simple to bend a con rod by
pulling on the end of the prop - surely that is a nonsense!?!] Anyway,
I'm very willing to listen to all dissenting opinion.
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305905#305905
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
If you do not want to go to all the trouble of tapping, fitting and
mounting
this system described by Dennis (which is pretty slick) you can do what
another friend did with his 50.
He simply drilled a =BC in hole in the chin of his cowling under the
sump
drain. He slides a =BC in hose through that hole at the end of each
flight,
pops the retaining clip on the sump drain lever, and opens it to run
into a
5 gallon =93clean=94 gas can. Whatever drains out before the next flight
is then
put back into the oil tank. He of course has the intake drains
installed
also to keep any excess from accumulating there. As Dave says, it is
kind of
hard to push the plane out of the hanger with all that crap hanging off
the
chin and it really makes a big mess that you have to clean up when you
knock
the oil can over with the tail of the 50 if you got stupid and forgot to
disconnect the system.
Of course nothing is fool proof. This method introduces the least number
of
=93gotcha=92s=94 into the equation though. Not real fond of drilling
holes in my
skin but after watching Dave=92s system work over the years now it has
definitely conformed to the KISS principle.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Intake manifold drains do not "prevent" hydraulic lock from occurring.
They
are there to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock occurring by
draining
any oil that accumulates in the intake tubes. Draining the intake tubes
reduces the possibility of oil being sucked into the lower cylinders
when
the engine is started.
Take a lesson from the T6 guys. Have you ever noticed at various air
shows
or fly ins that some T-6's have a tube/small hose with a milk jug or
something similar under the cowl? It is to drain the sump after
shutdown.
On an M14, if you connect a hose on the sump drain where the chip
detector
screen is located and allow the oil to drain into a CLEAN container, the
oil
that typically causes hydraulic lock by spilling over into the lower
cylinders, will be drained into the container. Then during pre-flight,
pour
the oil back into the oil tank and close the sump drain.
A friend of mine came up with a really neat sump drain and we have
installed
this very simple sump drain on other M14's. It really works! Using a
90
degree AN fitting on the sump drain (1/8 NPT to 1/4" hose barb), tap the
sump drain and install the AN fitting with the barb end pointing to the
right (when looking at the front of the engine). Then attach 1/4" blue
silicone hose (secure with a small hose clamp) from the barb end of the
AN
fitting and run it back to the firewall through the opening between the
cowl
pads on the engine baffling. Next, install/mount a fuel quick
disconnect
available from Aircraft Spruce on the mount of the coarse (yellow) fuel
screen using two Adel clamps. Connect the blue, 1/4" hose to the fuel
quick
disconnect and secure with hose clamps. On the open end of the fuel
quick
disconnect, attach another piece of hose and place the open end into a
clean
2 gallon/8-10 liter plastic gas container available at your local auto
supply store. The quick disconnect is the neat part. Press the button
on
the quick disconnect, and the end with the long hose into the drain
container is removed. When you land, simply press it back into the
other
end of the quick disconnect and it snaps (literally) in place. You can
reach through the cooling louvers on the cowl to open and close the sump
drain and reinstall the safety clip.
This sump drain only fits on the straight sump drains. Not the 90
degree
sump drains which are attached below the chip detector. The AN fitting
won't clear the cowl.
The root of the problem is of course the oil leaking down after engine
shut
down through the oil pump. It can be stopped by installing the Jim
Kimball
oil shut off kit OR by having the oil pump repaired, which is why the
oil is
leaking down in the first place. There is an internal valve in the oil
pump
which Jill so nicely described in the RPA magazine last year that may
not
fully close. When it does not close, it allows the oil from the tank to
flow through the oil pump and into the engine which then ends up in the
sump. When the sump fills, the oil spills over into the lower
cylinders.
And everyone knows what that means.
If anyone wants pictures of this simple sump drain installation, email
me
off list and I will be happy to send some pictures of the installation.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: psb777 <mailto:matronics.com@beardsell.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:36 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Francois's very unfortunate experience was a consequence, it is
acknowledged, of there being an accumulation of oil in the inlet
manifold,
and the anti-lock procedure used now known not to be comprehensively
correct. I do not think the idea to modify this procedure next time to
again swing the prop after replacing the plugs would have helped,
necessarily. Cold possibly congealed oil in the inlet manifold might
not
have been cleared by the extra swinging (the air path not being
completely
blocked, or air bubbling through), and the oil would still have been
sucked
in just after the start.
Hydraulic lock is such a worry to us all. Whereas the oil tank tap and
the
scavenger pump would be nice things to fit to my 18T there are
unintended
consequences, perhaps, to doing such mods. They themselves can,
potentially
cause things to break. E.g. The tap could be left switched off and that
will
ruin your engine also. And the the starter interlock to prevent this
could
stop working - how would you know? It would be another thing to test
periodically. Certainly I would want to put checking that the starter
doesn't work with the tap off into my startup checklist. I think that
the
addition of extra bits and pieces can sometimes make the whole assembly
more
prone to failure.
A case in point - at the time I bought my 18T inlet manifold drains were
fitted so as to help prevent hydraulic lock. But twice now I have got
back
on the ground to find they had been open throughout the flight. OK, no
big
consequence, but I am an idiot, and there is no compensating for that.
I left my 18T unflown in a hangar five months over the Winter. On
returning
to it there was a large pool of oil in the drip tray. The oil dipstick
read
5. The a/c was dragged out into the sun. I added 5 litres of oil, all
that
I had. I swung the prop and what looked like another litre of oil
emerged
from exhaust pipes and inlet drains. I waited and swung again. More
oil,
but not as much. I waited and swung again. A few drops only. I closed
the
inlet drains, alternated each primer stroke with a prop blade pull, and
depressed the drains momentarily to let excess liquid fuel escape.
After
the second unsuccessful start attempt I started again, opening the
drains,
swinging the prop, repriming etc etc. The engine started on the third
attempt, just as the air was about to be exhausted, in an unsually large
cloud of smoke. I went flying.
Before the next flight I dipped the oil tank to find it reading more
than
12. 5+5=10. So over two litres of oil had been in the sump and/or
cupped
inside the lower pistons when I had started the engine the first time.
But had that constituted a risk of hydraulic lock? No, I suggest, not
if
you follow the procedure I did. There was no substantial oil in the
cylinder heads, and there was not enough time given for any meaningful
quantity to leak past the rings. And the inlet manifold was clear.
I cannot see how the combination of swinging the prop (and repeating if
oil
emerges) and fitting inlet manifold drains (and leaving them open
between
flights) should fail to prevent hydraulic lock. Also, no matter how
much
extra kit I fit, the swinging of the prop and the inlet drains would
remain
necessary. So I think I won't be fitting other stuff that might break.
I worry that I am tempting fate, and that my next posting could be to
report
a disaster. [On the other hand we're so worried about hydraulic lock
that
we think it possible or even simple to bend a con rod by pulling on the
end
of the prop - surely that is a nonsense!?!] Anyway, I'm very willing to
listen to all dissenting opinion.
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305905#305905
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
What Doc describes is definitely the KISS method and certainly works
very well. It's also the same thing the T6 guys do which, according to
Dave, is where his idea came from.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Kemp M.D.
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 7:46 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
If you do not want to go to all the trouble of tapping, fitting and
mounting this system described by Dennis (which is pretty slick) you can
do what another friend did with his 50.
He simply drilled a =BC in hole in the chin of his cowling under the
sump drain. He slides a =BC in hose through that hole at the end of each
flight, pops the retaining clip on the sump drain lever, and opens it to
run into a 5 gallon =93clean=94 gas can. Whatever drains out before the
next flight is then put back into the oil tank. He of course has the
intake drains installed also to keep any excess from accumulating there.
As Dave says, it is kind of hard to push the plane out of the hanger
with all that crap hanging off the chin and it really makes a big mess
that you have to clean up when you knock the oil can over with the tail
of the 50 if you got stupid and forgot to disconnect the system.
Of course nothing is fool proof. This method introduces the least
number of =93gotcha=92s=94 into the equation though. Not real fond of
drilling holes in my skin but after watching Dave=92s system work over
the years now it has definitely conformed to the KISS principle.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 7:11 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Intake manifold drains do not "prevent" hydraulic lock from occurring.
They are there to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock occurring by
draining any oil that accumulates in the intake tubes. Draining the
intake tubes reduces the possibility of oil being sucked into the lower
cylinders when the engine is started.
Take a lesson from the T6 guys. Have you ever noticed at various air
shows or fly ins that some T-6's have a tube/small hose with a milk jug
or something similar under the cowl? It is to drain the sump after
shutdown. On an M14, if you connect a hose on the sump drain where the
chip detector screen is located and allow the oil to drain into a CLEAN
container, the oil that typically causes hydraulic lock by spilling over
into the lower cylinders, will be drained into the container. Then
during pre-flight, pour the oil back into the oil tank and close the
sump drain.
A friend of mine came up with a really neat sump drain and we have
installed this very simple sump drain on other M14's. It really works!
Using a 90 degree AN fitting on the sump drain (1/8 NPT to 1/4" hose
barb), tap the sump drain and install the AN fitting with the barb end
pointing to the right (when looking at the front of the engine). Then
attach 1/4" blue silicone hose (secure with a small hose clamp) from the
barb end of the AN fitting and run it back to the firewall through the
opening between the cowl pads on the engine baffling. Next,
install/mount a fuel quick disconnect available from Aircraft Spruce on
the mount of the coarse (yellow) fuel screen using two Adel clamps.
Connect the blue, 1/4" hose to the fuel quick disconnect and secure with
hose clamps. On the open end of the fuel quick disconnect, attach
another piece of hose and place the open end into a clean 2 gallon/8-10
liter plastic gas container available at your local auto supply store.
The quick disconnect is the neat part. Press the button on the quick
disconnect, and the end with the long hose into the drain container is
removed. When you land, simply press it back into the other end of the
quick disconnect and it snaps (literally) in place. You can reach
through the cooling louvers on the cowl to open and close the sump drain
and reinstall the safety clip.
This sump drain only fits on the straight sump drains. Not the 90
degree sump drains which are attached below the chip detector. The AN
fitting won't clear the cowl.
The root of the problem is of course the oil leaking down after engine
shut down through the oil pump. It can be stopped by installing the Jim
Kimball oil shut off kit OR by having the oil pump repaired, which is
why the oil is leaking down in the first place. There is an internal
valve in the oil pump which Jill so nicely described in the RPA magazine
last year that may not fully close. When it does not close, it allows
the oil from the tank to flow through the oil pump and into the engine
which then ends up in the sump. When the sump fills, the oil spills
over into the lower cylinders. And everyone knows what that means.
If anyone wants pictures of this simple sump drain installation, email
me off list and I will be happy to send some pictures of the
installation.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: psb777
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:36 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
<matronics.com@beardsell.com>
Francois's very unfortunate experience was a consequence, it is
acknowledged, of there being an accumulation of oil in the inlet
manifold, and the anti-lock procedure used now known not to be
comprehensively correct. I do not think the idea to modify this
procedure next time to again swing the prop after replacing the plugs
would have helped, necessarily. Cold possibly congealed oil in the
inlet manifold might not have been cleared by the extra swinging (the
air path not being completely blocked, or air bubbling through), and the
oil would still have been sucked in just after the start.
Hydraulic lock is such a worry to us all. Whereas the oil tank tap
and the scavenger pump would be nice things to fit to my 18T there are
unintended consequences, perhaps, to doing such mods. They themselves
can, potentially cause things to break. E.g. The tap could be left
switched off and that will ruin your engine also. And the the starter
interlock to prevent this could stop working - how would you know? It
would be another thing to test periodically. Certainly I would want to
put checking that the starter doesn't work with the tap off into my
startup checklist. I think that the addition of extra bits and pieces
can sometimes make the whole assembly more prone to failure.
A case in point - at the time I bought my 18T inlet manifold drains
were fitted so as to help prevent hydraulic lock. But twice now I have
got back on the ground to find they had been open throughout the flight.
OK, no big consequence, but I am an idiot, and there is no compensating
for that.
I left my 18T unflown in a hangar five months over the Winter. On
returning to it there was a large pool of oil in the drip tray. The oil
dipstick read 5. The a/c was dragged out into the sun. I added 5
litres of oil, all that I had. I swung the prop and what looked like
another litre of oil emerged from exhaust pipes and inlet drains. I
waited and swung again. More oil, but not as much. I waited and swung
again. A few drops only. I closed the inlet drains, alternated each
primer stroke with a prop blade pull, and depressed the drains
momentarily to let excess liquid fuel escape. After the second
unsuccessful start attempt I started again, opening the drains, swinging
the prop, repriming etc etc. The engine started on the third attempt,
just as the air was about to be exhausted, in an unsually large cloud of
smoke. I went flying.
Before the next flight I dipped the oil tank to find it reading more
than 12. 5+5=10. So over two litres of oil had been in the sump
and/or cupped inside the lower pistons when I had started the engine the
first time.
But had that constituted a risk of hydraulic lock? No, I suggest,
not if you follow the procedure I did. There was no substantial oil in
the cylinder heads, and there was not enough time given for any
meaningful quantity to leak past the rings. And the inlet manifold was
clear.
I cannot see how the combination of swinging the prop (and repeating
if oil emerges) and fitting inlet manifold drains (and leaving them open
between flights) should fail to prevent hydraulic lock. Also, no matter
how much extra kit I fit, the swinging of the prop and the inlet drains
would remain necessary. So I think I won't be fitting other stuff that
might break.
I worry that I am tempting fate, and that my next posting could be
to report a disaster. [On the other hand we're so worried about
hydraulic lock that we think it possible or even simple to bend a con
rod by pulling on the end of the prop - surely that is a nonsense!?!]
Anyway, I'm very willing to listen to all dissenting opinion.
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305905#305905
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========================<
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================
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p://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
I haven't seen the T6 guys. do they still swing their props before starting?
[quote="dsavarese0812(at)bellsout"]What Doc describes is definitely the KISS method
and certainly works very well. It's also the same thing the T6 guys do
which, according to Dave, is where his idea came from.
Dennis
> ---
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305932#305932
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Always 9 turns
Snj5 777hl
------Original Message------
From: psb777
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
Sent: Jul 22, 2010 10:01 AM
I haven't seen the T6 guys. do they still swing their props before starting?
[quote="dsavarese0812(at)bellsout"]What Doc describes is definitely the KISS method
and certainly works very well. It's also the same thing the T6 guys do
which, according to Dave, is where his idea came from.
Dennis
> ---
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305932#305932
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
So the sump drain device is not enough, in the T6, by itself, to prevent hydraulic
lock?
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305938#305938
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
No, you still have to get your exercise pulling the blades.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of psb777
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:26 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
So the sump drain device is not enough, in the T6, by itself, to prevent
hydraulic lock?
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305938#305938
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Guys,
I'm amazed (or maybe I missed the post) that no one has bothered to mention
that either pre heating or elec heat pads will help the situation and
GREATLY lessen the chances of having cold thick oil clinging to the ID of
the intake pipes. This small amount of cold stiff oil is easily capable of
causing a hyd lock as it will be sucked off the walls and into the cyls as
soon as the engine fires. Cold weather operations without some form of heat
is very, very risky business, even if you fly every day the odds of a hyd
lock are great without some form of heat. IMHO if you let your engine set
for a period of time in the cold and then (without some form of heat),
expect to do the standard "pull the plugs and rotate" routine you are
flirting with disaster. You may think you are getting away with it, but it
is very possible that you will suffer some degree of lock, micro or major,
but the odds are that it will happen. Your just playing Russian roulette
---don't do it! We all need to realize that just because your engine did
not suddenly go THUNK and stop during start up that it does not mean that
you did not bend a rod. There are all degrees of bends from the very slight
to the extreme where in the rod contacts the skirt an stops the engine.
Best from Omak
Doug
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:36 AM, psb777 <matronics.com@beardsell.com> wrote:
>
> Francois's very unfortunate experience was a consequence, it is
> acknowledged, of there being an accumulation of oil in the inlet manifold,
> and the anti-lock procedure used now known not to be comprehensively
> correct. I do not think the idea to modify this procedure next time to
> again swing the prop after replacing the plugs would have helped,
> necessarily. Cold possibly congealed oil in the inlet manifold might not
> have been cleared by the extra swinging (the air path not being completely
> blocked, or air bubbling through), and the oil would still have been sucked
> in just after the start.
>
> Hydraulic lock is such a worry to us all. Whereas the oil tank tap and the
> scavenger pump would be nice things to fit to my 18T there are unintended
> consequences, perhaps, to doing such mods. They themselves can, potentially
> cause things to break. E.g. The tap could be left switched off and that will
> ruin your engine also. And the the starter interlock to prevent this could
> stop working - how would you know? It would be another thing to test
> periodically. Certainly I would want to put checking that the starter
> doesn't work with the tap off into my startup checklist. I think that the
> addition of extra bits and pieces can sometimes make the whole assembly more
> prone to failure.
>
> A case in point - at the time I bought my 18T inlet manifold drains were
> fitted so as to help prevent hydraulic lock. But twice now I have got back
> on the ground to find they had been open throughout the flight. OK, no big
> consequence, but I am an idiot, and there is no compensating for that.
>
> I left my 18T unflown in a hangar five months over the Winter. On
> returning to it there was a large pool of oil in the drip tray. The oil
> dipstick read 5. The a/c was dragged out into the sun. I added 5 litres of
> oil, all that I had. I swung the prop and what looked like another litre of
> oil emerged from exhaust pipes and inlet drains. I waited and swung again.
> More oil, but not as much. I waited and swung again. A few drops only. I
> closed the inlet drains, alternated each primer stroke with a prop blade
> pull, and depressed the drains momentarily to let excess liquid fuel escape.
> After the second unsuccessful start attempt I started again, opening the
> drains, swinging the prop, repriming etc etc. The engine started on the
> third attempt, just as the air was about to be exhausted, in an unsually
> large cloud of smoke. I went flying.
>
> Before the next flight I dipped the oil tank to find it reading more than
> 12. 5+5=10. So over two litres of oil had been in the sump and/or cupped
> inside the lower pistons when I had started the engine the first time.
>
> But had that constituted a risk of hydraulic lock? No, I suggest, not if
> you follow the procedure I did. There was no substantial oil in the
> cylinder heads, and there was not enough time given for any meaningful
> quantity to leak past the rings. And the inlet manifold was clear.
>
> I cannot see how the combination of swinging the prop (and repeating if oil
> emerges) and fitting inlet manifold drains (and leaving them open between
> flights) should fail to prevent hydraulic lock. Also, no matter how much
> extra kit I fit, the swinging of the prop and the inlet drains would remain
> necessary. So I think I won't be fitting other stuff that might break.
>
> I worry that I am tempting fate, and that my next posting could be to
> report a disaster. [On the other hand we're so worried about hydraulic lock
> that we think it possible or even simple to bend a con rod by pulling on the
> end of the prop - surely that is a nonsense!?!] Anyway, I'm very willing to
> listen to all dissenting opinion.
>
> --------
> Paul Beardsell
> HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
> Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305905#305905
>
>
Message 14
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There are a number of issues:
. The octane of aviation fuel is measured differently than that of
motor fuel. Extremely roughly, if you add on 10 to the aviation octane you
will get the automotive octane for that fuel.
. M14P officially uses the fuel B91, which is 91 octane, but it is
absolutely fine with 95 octane automotive fuel.
. BUT the real potential problem is that of vaporisation,
particularly on a hot day if the plane has been left out; aggravated if you
have "winter" Mogas being used in the summer.
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
<http://www.russianaeros.com> www.russianaeros.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Some do and some don't. Many have a scavenge pump installed to pump the
oil from the sump back into the oil tank. I've seen one installation
with an attempt to do the same thing on an M14 and it was a disaster.
You had to remove part of the additional tubing, 2 rocker covers, an
adapter plate and hoses BEFORE you could remove and inspect the chip
detector screen.
----- Original Message -----
From: psb777
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:01 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
I haven't seen the T6 guys. do they still swing their props before
starting?
[quote="dsavarese0812(at)bellsout"]What Doc describes is definitely
the KISS method and certainly works very well. It's also the same
thing the T6 guys do which, according to Dave, is where his idea came
from.
Dennis
> ---
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305932#305932
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto Maintenance |
Hi Guys, does anybody out there have weight & balance info for the CJ6.
Mine does not have any. I do have the gross & empty weight, but need the
forward cg, aft cg & moment. I have the Yakkity Yaks manual, but it list
the cg in percentage. thanks.
Paul Lewis
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 4:32 AM, Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
>
> For those who are new to maintaining their M-14 or Huosai mags, I authored
> a How-to document, with pictures. You can find it on the RPA/Store/Manuals
> page.
>
> Magneto coils do age and degrade, but NOT as often as other
> magneto/ignition maladies. Now that Doug Sapp is getting a supply of
> replacement coils made, I expect to keep these beasties firing for a long
> time to come..
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Sir,
Yes the T-6's still swing the prop before start up.
We have the fitting on some of the T-6's (Condor Squadron), for the sump drain.
The clean kit, keeps excess oil from getting down the side of the aircraft.
But all props still get swung by hand before start up.
Laterrrrrr
Avn-Tech
Member, Condor Squadron
Crew, T-6, #42 Honest Entry, Reno Air Races
At 07:01 AM 7/22/2010, you wrote:
>
>I haven't seen the T6 guys. do they still swing their props before starting?
>
>[quote="dsavarese0812(at)bellsout"]What Doc describes is definitely
>the KISS method and certainly works very well. It's also the same
>thing the T6 guys do which, according to Dave, is where his idea came from.
> Dennis
>
> > ---
>
>
>--------
>Paul Beardsell
>HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
>Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305932#305932
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto Maintenance |
The W&B spreadsheet on the RPA site is version 3. I have version 5
Attached here.
This is a W&B spreadsheet I've developed for the CJ. You'll have to put
in your own weights and confirm you are using the datum recommended in
the sheet. The rest is relatively straight forward. The tool allows
you to input stations and weights for:
Aux Fuel Tank
Smoke Oil Tank
3 Different baggage sections/compartments.
Note: Print at 96% to get it to fit on page correctly.
Let me know if you have questions.
Also if anyone else has requests for features, please let me know. It
cost's no more than a beer, next time we fly together. :-)
Bear
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Lewis
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
Hi Guys, does anybody out there have weight & balance info for the
CJ6. Mine does not have any. I do have the gross & empty weight, but
need the forward cg, aft cg & moment. I have the Yakkity Yaks manual,
but it list the cg in percentage. thanks.
Paul Lewis
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 4:32 AM, Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
For those who are new to maintaining their M-14 or Huosai mags, I
authored a How-to document, with pictures. You can find it on the
RPA/Store/Manuals page.
Magneto coils do age and degrade, but NOT as often as other
magneto/ignition maladies. Now that Doug Sapp is getting a supply of
replacement coils made, I expect to keep these beasties firing for a
long time to come..
Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto Maintenance |
Did anyone see this email and attachment below? I got an error message,
but it came through on my end.
Bear
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
The W&B spreadsheet on the RPA site is version 3. I have version 5
Attached here.
This is a W&B spreadsheet I've developed for the CJ. You'll have to
put in your own weights and confirm you are using the datum recommended
in the sheet. The rest is relatively straight forward. The tool allows
you to input stations and weights for:
Aux Fuel Tank
Smoke Oil Tank
3 Different baggage sections/compartments.
Note: Print at 96% to get it to fit on page correctly.
Let me know if you have questions.
Also if anyone else has requests for features, please let me know. It
cost's no more than a beer, next time we fly together. :-)
Bear
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Lewis
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
Hi Guys, does anybody out there have weight & balance info for the
CJ6. Mine does not have any. I do have the gross & empty weight, but
need the forward cg, aft cg & moment. I have the Yakkity Yaks manual,
but it list the cg in percentage. thanks.
Paul Lewis
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 4:32 AM, Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
For those who are new to maintaining their M-14 or Huosai mags, I
authored a How-to document, with pictures. You can find it on the
RPA/Store/Manuals page.
Magneto coils do age and degrade, but NOT as often as other
magneto/ignition maladies. Now that Doug Sapp is getting a supply of
replacement coils made, I expect to keep these beasties firing for a
long time to come..
Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 20
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But is the 88/97 Mogas pump at Gap-Tallard aerodrome better than the 95 octane
cutoff you quote. 88/97 is MON=88 RON=97 octane. I think also that when the
M14P manual says "B91/115 at least 91 octane" they refer to 91 as the MON. In
which case, according to the M14P Maintenance Manual, 88/97 mogas is not good
enough because its MON=88.
The ten point difference between avgas and mogas octane ratings is unsupported
by anything I have read. In the USA roadside gas is sold with an AKI octane rating.
AKI is the average of MON and RON. Usually there is a 8 to 10 point difference
between MON and RON. So, in the USA the same fuel has an avgas MON
4 to 5 points lower than its mogas rating. Not so in Europe where AKI is not
used. MON and RON mean the same for both avgas and mogas.
--------
Paul Beardsell
HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306006#306006
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Mogas and the M14P (again!) |
Paul,
just to reassure you, I spoke with Jan Mevis. He says that in Belgium they
fly since long time with regular SP95 with ethanol. If you use it for a long
time you will have some seal to change if ever but it will work fine. SP98
is better even if it is guaranteed max 5% ethanol, itseems that you can use
it for the motors lifetime without noticing a difference only in your bank
account. And on the lifetime of your motor the economy done will pay you a
new motor.
I spoke also about that with Ricardas and Andrey. Both of them laugh at my
question. They say that everybody in Spain, Italy, and the eastern countries
run with MOGAS or sp95 or whatever they can pour in the tank without any
problem.
Then Bela also is running on MOGAS, ask him.
So I think you may fill your tank with MOGAS if you find some.
I am trying to provide MOGAS on my field but the petrol companies do not
like that....t seems to be difficult.
If you have a contact at GAP/TALLARD I will be glad to phone him and ask who
is his provider.
That said you are of coursethe only responsible of your flight.
I will run my plane with SP98 or better with MOGAS if I can.
If you are still in France tell me when you are near Paris and we will have
a drink for sure this time.
PS : I am in holydays in Grece until 1st of august
kind regards
Didier
2010/7/22 psb777 <matronics.com@beardsell.com>
>
> This subject has been done to death, so it seems, and I think I have read
> much (maybe all) posted here about mogas in recent months. Sorry to open it
> up again.
>
> I am currently tempted to put mogas into my 18T. I am currently in France
> and, as Didier reported in another thread, avgas is in short supply.
> Certainly, here in the SE, no one is admitting to having any, and I have
> the last (so they said) from Cannes Mandelieu in my tanks. Near me, at
> Gap-Tallard aerodrome, there is a mogas [MON/RON=88/97] pump and I am told
> there is no alcohol in that mogas. Can I use it? I think not. [But please
> persuade me otherwise!]
>
> The M14P Maintenance Manual says that the fuel must meet "B91/115 GOST
> 1012-72 octane rating at least 91".
>
> There are different definitions of octane rating. According to my perhaps
> flawed reading in the West a 88/97 octane rating is MON=88, RON=97. If a
> single figure is quoted this can be either but is usually the lower, the
> MON, or sometimes the AKI [the average(?) of the MON and RON].
>
> Whatever, it does seem there is good reason to think 88/97 mogas is NOT
> good enough. In the appendix of the manual B91/115 is explicitly stated to
> be MON-.5 and RON=126. There is also a much lower spec of fuel in the
> manual but UPON CAREFUL READING this is the spec of gasoline good enough
> merely to CLEAN the M14P!
>
> On this forum I have read that our engines were designed for 70 octane. But
> I have read that only here. Was that possibly for the very original
> non-supercharged designs?
>
> --------
> Paul Beardsell
> HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
> Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305908#305908
>
>
--
Didier BLOUZARD
didier.blouzard@gmail.com
0624243672
Message 22
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| Subject: | Magneto Maintenance |
The W&B spreadsheet on the RPA site is version 3. I have version 5 now,
but the yak-list server doesn't allow me to send xlxs files to the list.
I have sent the file to the admin for the RPA website and hopefully it
should be on the site soon.
This is a W&B spreadsheet I've developed for the CJ. You'll have to put
in your own weights and confirm you are using the datum recommended in
the sheet. The rest is relatively straight forward. The tool allows
you to input stations and weights for:
Aux Fuel Tank
Smoke Oil Tank
3 Different baggage sections/compartments.
Note: Print at 96% to get it to fit on page correctly.
Let me know if you have questions.
Also if anyone else has requests for features, please let me know. It
cost's no more than a beer, next time we fly together. :-)
If you want me to send it to you directly, please email me OFF the list.
Bear
Randy DeVere
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto Maintenance |
Yes, I did.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
Did anyone see this email and attachment below? I got an error
message, but it came through on my end.
Bear
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
The W&B spreadsheet on the RPA site is version 3. I have version 5
Attached here.
This is a W&B spreadsheet I've developed for the CJ. You'll have to
put in your own weights and confirm you are using the datum recommended
in the sheet. The rest is relatively straight forward. The tool allows
you to input stations and weights for:
Aux Fuel Tank
Smoke Oil Tank
3 Different baggage sections/compartments.
Note: Print at 96% to get it to fit on page correctly.
Let me know if you have questions.
Also if anyone else has requests for features, please let me know.
It cost's no more than a beer, next time we fly together. :-)
Bear
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Lewis
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
Hi Guys, does anybody out there have weight & balance info for the
CJ6. Mine does not have any. I do have the gross & empty weight, but
need the forward cg, aft cg & moment. I have the Yakkity Yaks manual,
but it list the cg in percentage. thanks.
Paul Lewis
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 4:32 AM, Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com>
wrote:
For those who are new to maintaining their M-14 or Huosai mags,
I authored a How-to document, with pictures. You can find it on the
RPA/Store/Manuals page.
Magneto coils do age and degrade, but NOT as often as other
magneto/ignition maladies. Now that Doug Sapp is getting a supply of
replacement coils made, I expect to keep these beasties firing for a
long time to come..
Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhre
f="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: The Hydraulic lock |
Hello Dennis,
I never heard about this system for draining the oil. I have intalled a
draining system with the plugs you sent me. If I can add this draining
system I will be most pleased to have a look on your installation.
Thanks a lot Dennis
best regards from Paris
Didier
2010/7/22 A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
> Intake manifold drains do not "prevent" hydraulic lock from occurring.
> They are there to reduce the possibility of hydraulic lock occurring by
> draining any oil that accumulates in the intake tubes. Draining the intake
> tubes reduces the possibility of oil being sucked into the lower cylinders
> when the engine is started.
>
> Take a lesson from the T6 guys. Have you ever noticed at various air shows
> or fly ins that some T-6's have a tube/small hose with a milk jug or
> something similar under the cowl? It is to drain the sump after shutdown.
> On an M14, if you connect a hose on the sump drain where the chip detector
> screen is located and allow the oil to drain into a CLEAN container, the oil
> that typically causes hydraulic lock by spilling over into the lower
> cylinders, will be drained into the container. Then during pre-flight, pour
> the oil back into the oil tank and close the sump drain.
>
> A friend of mine came up with a really neat sump drain and we have
> installed this very simple sump drain on other M14's. It really works!
> Using a 90 degree AN fitting on the sump drain (1/8 NPT to 1/4" hose barb),
> tap the sump drain and install the AN fitting with the barb end pointing to
> the right (when looking at the front of the engine). Then attach 1/4" blue
> silicone hose (secure with a small hose clamp) from the barb end of the AN
> fitting and run it back to the firewall through the opening between the cowl
> pads on the engine baffling. Next, install/mount a fuel quick disconnect
> available from Aircraft Spruce on the mount of the coarse (yellow) fuel
> screen using two Adel clamps. Connect the blue, 1/4" hose to the fuel quick
> disconnect and secure with hose clamps. On the open end of the fuel quick
> disconnect, attach another piece of hose and place the open end into a clean
> 2 gallon/8-10 liter plastic gas container available at your local auto
> supply store. The quick disconnect is the neat part. Press the button on
> the quick disconnect, and the end with the long hose into the drain
> container is removed. When you land, simply press it back into the other
> end of the quick disconnect and it snaps (literally) in place. You can
> reach through the cooling louvers on the cowl to open and close the sump
> drain and reinstall the safety clip.
>
> This sump drain only fits on the straight sump drains. Not the 90 degree
> sump drains which are attached below the chip detector. The AN fitting
> won't clear the cowl.
>
> The root of the problem is of course the oil leaking down after engine shut
> down through the oil pump. It can be stopped by installing the Jim Kimball
> oil shut off kit OR by having the oil pump repaired, which is why the oil is
> leaking down in the first place. There is an internal valve in the oil pump
> which Jill so nicely described in the RPA magazine last year that may not
> fully close. When it does not close, it allows the oil from the tank to
> flow through the oil pump and into the engine which then ends up in the
> sump. When the sump fills, the oil spills over into the lower cylinders.
> And everyone knows what that means.
>
> If anyone wants pictures of this simple sump drain installation, email me
> off list and I will be happy to send some pictures of the installation.
> Dennis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* psb777 <matronics.com@beardsell.com>
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:36 AM
> *Subject:* Yak-List: Re: The Hydraulic lock
>
>
> Francois's very unfortunate experience was a consequence, it is
> acknowledged, of there being an accumulation of oil in the inlet manifold,
> and the anti-lock procedure used now known not to be comprehensively
> correct. I do not think the idea to modify this procedure next time to
> again swing the prop after replacing the plugs would have helped,
> necessarily. Cold possibly congealed oil in the inlet manifold might not
> have been cleared by the extra swinging (the air path not being completely
> blocked, or air bubbling through), and the oil would still have been sucked
> in just after the start.
>
> Hydraulic lock is such a worry to us all. Whereas the oil tank tap and the
> scavenger pump would be nice things to fit to my 18T there are unintended
> consequences, perhaps, to doing such mods. They themselves can, potentially
> cause things to break. E.g. The tap could be left switched off and that will
> ruin your engine also. And the the starter interlock to prevent this could
> stop working - how would you know? It would be another thing to test
> periodically. Certainly I would want to put checking that the starter
> doesn't work with the tap off into my startup checklist. I think that the
> addition of extra bits and pieces can sometimes make the whole assembly more
> prone to failure.
>
> A case in point - at the time I bought my 18T inlet manifold drains were
> fitted so as to help prevent hydraulic lock. But twice now I have got back
> on the ground to find they had been open throughout the flight. OK, no big
> consequence, but I am an idiot, and there is no compensating for that.
>
> I left my 18T unflown in a hangar five months over the Winter. On
> returning to it there was a large pool of oil in the drip tray. The oil
> dipstick read 5. The a/c was dragged out into the sun. I added 5 litres of
> oil, all that I had. I swung the prop and what looked like another litre of
> oil emerged from exhaust pipes and inlet drains. I waited and swung again.
> More oil, but not as much. I waited and swung again. A few drops only. I
> closed the inlet drains, alternated each primer stroke with a prop blade
> pull, and depressed the drains momentarily to let excess liquid fuel
> escape. After the second unsuccessful start attempt I started again,
> opening the drains, swinging the prop, repriming etc etc. The engine
> started on the third attempt, just as the air was about to be exhausted, in
> an unsually large cloud of smoke. I went flying.
>
> Before the next flight I dipped the oil tank to find it reading more than
> 12. 5+5=10. So over two litres of oil had been in the sump and/or cupped
> inside the lower pistons when I had started the engine the first time.
>
> But had that constituted a risk of hydraulic lock? No, I suggest, not if
> you follow the procedure I did. There was no substantial oil in the
> cylinder heads, and there was not enough time given for any meaningful
> quantity to leak past the rings. And the inlet manifold was clear.
>
> I cannot see how the combination of swinging the prop (and repeating if oil
> emerges) and fitting inlet manifold drains (and leaving them open between
> flights) should fail to prevent hydraulic lock. Also, no matter how much
> extra kit I fit, the swinging of the prop and the inlet drains would remain
> necessary. So I think I won't be fitting other stuff that might break.
>
> I worry that I am tempting fate, and that my next posting could be to
> report a disaster. [On the other hand we're so worried about hydraulic lock
> that we think it possible or even simple to bend a con rod by pulling on the
> end of the prop - surely that is a nonsense!?!] Anyway, I'm very willing to
> listen to all dissenting opinion.
>
>
> --------
> Paul Beardsell
> HA-YAB http://beardsell.com/flying/ha-yab
> Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=305905#305905
>
>
> http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web href="
> http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> _p; generous bsp; href="
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution">
> http://www.matronics.com/c================
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Didier BLOUZARD
didier.blouzard@gmail.com
0624243672
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto Maintenance |
Same for me. I can read the attachment.
It is a xlsx doc, so not everybody has the last version of office.
Didier
2010/7/23 A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
> Yes, I did.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* dabear <Dabear@damned.org>
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:36 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
>
> Did anyone see this email and attachment below? I got an error message,
> but it came through on my end.
>
> Bear
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* dabear <Dabear@damned.org>
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:43 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
>
> The W&B spreadsheet on the RPA site is version 3. I have version 5 Attached
> here.
>
> This is a W&B spreadsheet I've developed for the CJ. You'll have to put in
> your own weights and confirm you are using the datum recommended in the
> sheet. The rest is relatively straight forward. The tool allows you to
> input stations and weights for:
> Aux Fuel Tank
> Smoke Oil Tank
> 3 Different baggage sections/compartments.
>
>
> Note: Print at 96% to get it to fit on page correctly.
>
> Let me know if you have questions.
>
> Also if anyone else has requests for features, please let me know. It
> cost's no more than a beer, next time we fly together. :-)
>
> Bear
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Paul Lewis <okanoganlew@gmail.com>
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 22, 2010 2:42 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
>
> Hi Guys, does anybody out there have weight & balance info for the CJ6.
> Mine does not have any. I do have the gross & empty weight, but need the
> forward cg, aft cg & moment. I have the Yakkity Yaks manual, but it list
> the cg in percentage. thanks.
>
> Paul Lewis
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 4:32 AM, Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> For those who are new to maintaining their M-14 or Huosai mags, I authored
>> a How-to document, with pictures. You can find it on the RPA/Store/Manuals
>> page.
>>
>> Magneto coils do age and degrade, but NOT as often as other
>> magneto/ignition maladies. Now that Doug Sapp is getting a supply of
>> replacement coils made, I expect to keep these beasties firing for a long
>> time to come..
>> Subscription,
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ====
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Didier BLOUZARD
didier.blouzard@gmail.com
0624243672
Message 26
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| Subject: | Magneto Maintenance |
It came through in my email.
doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dabear
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
Did anyone see this email and attachment below? I got an error message, but
it came through on my end.
Bear
----- Original Message -----
From: dabear <mailto:Dabear@damned.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
The W&B spreadsheet on the RPA site is version 3. I have version 5 Attached
here.
This is a W&B spreadsheet I've developed for the CJ. You'll have to put in
your own weights and confirm you are using the datum recommended in the
sheet. The rest is relatively straight forward. The tool allows you to
input stations and weights for:
Aux Fuel Tank
Smoke Oil Tank
3 Different baggage sections/compartments.
Note: Print at 96% to get it to fit on page correctly.
Let me know if you have questions.
Also if anyone else has requests for features, please let me know. It
cost's no more than a beer, next time we fly together. :-)
Bear
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Lewis <mailto:okanoganlew@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Magneto Maintenance
Hi Guys, does anybody out there have weight & balance info for the CJ6.
Mine does not have any. I do have the gross & empty weight, but need the
forward cg, aft cg & moment. I have the Yakkity Yaks manual, but it list
the cg in percentage. thanks.
Paul Lewis
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 4:32 AM, Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com> wrote:
For those who are new to maintaining their M-14 or Huosai mags, I authored a
How-to document, with pictures. You can find it on the RPA/Store/Manuals
page.
Magneto coils do age and degrade, but NOT as often as other magneto/ignition
maladies. Now that Doug Sapp is getting a supply of replacement coils made,
I expect to keep these beasties firing for a long time to come..
Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 27
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| Subject: | Yak 52 Forward Mag Switch Problem |
After being down for repairs for more than 18 months, the forward
magneto switch no longer grounds the magneto P-Leads. The aft unit
works find and it had to be used to test the mag drop and shutdown the
engine during its initial test run. The forward would do neither. Has
anyone experienced this problem or have a schematic?
Thanks,
Steve Prejean
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto Maintenance |
If you send the file to me, I'll post it to the RPA site.
--
Kurt "I.T." Howerton
N923YK
530.312.1299
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 22, 2010, at 15:51, "dabear" <Dabear@damned.org> wrote:
> The W&B spreadsheet on the RPA site is version 3. I have version 5 now, bu
t the yak-list server doesn't allow me to send xlxs files to the list. I ha
ve sent the file to the admin for the RPA website and hopefully it should be
on the site soon.
>
> This is a W&B spreadsheet I've developed for the CJ. You'll have to put i
n your own weights and confirm you are using the datum recommended in the sh
eet. The rest is relatively straight forward. The tool allows you to input
stations and weights for:
> Aux Fuel Tank
> Smoke Oil Tank
> 3 Different baggage sections/compartments.
>
>
> Note: Print at 96% to get it to fit on page correctly.
>
> Let me know if you have questions.
>
> Also if anyone else has requests for features, please let me know. It cos
t's no more than a beer, next time we fly together. :-)
>
> If you want me to send it to you directly, please email me OFF the list.
>
> Bear
>
> Randy DeVere
>
>
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