Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:22 AM - Re: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow (RICHARD VOLKER)
2. 01:37 PM - MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
3. 02:04 PM - Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (rick@rvairshows.com)
4. 02:20 PM - Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (keithmckinley)
5. 03:24 PM - Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (Eric Wobschall)
6. 03:31 PM - Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (RICHARD VOLKER)
7. 04:08 PM - Re: G Meter (keithmckinley)
8. 07:03 PM - Re: Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 07:06 PM - Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
10. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (William Halverson)
11. 08:01 PM - Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (rick@rvairshows.com)
12. 08:27 PM - Re: Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
13. 08:27 PM - Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
14. 08:34 PM - Microlon (Frank Stelwagon)
15. 08:44 PM - Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow |
I need information about MMO. Is there any aviation engine testing
available with this additive? Are aircraft owners that are using this
oil actually trusting anecdotal evidence or it's performance in
non-aviation engines? How does this additive compare to CamGuard? The
engine teardown testing by Monte Barrett and others completely
reinforces CamGuard claims, as has many independent, scientifically
performed studies. A sample size of one is statistically useless in
proving anything. Wait a minute, I kiss my Sukhoi after every flight
and it is running better than ever. Anybody else care to try that?
Rick Volker
On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
> Hello Javier,
>
> Glad to hear you are happy with the ignition upgrade kit from Dennis.
I have been involved with that mod on several aircraft and in each
case, the improvement has been very noticable, especially at idle.
>
> Yes, I do use MMO... but clearly I am no expert in it's use. I am one
of these stupid people that think: "if a little bit is good, then a lot
is even better!". That is not an especially "informed or wise" point of
view, but you asked, so I am admitting it! :-)
>
> My YAK-50 holds about 32 gallons. I put about 1/2 quart or more in
for a full tank. In some cases, I've put as much as a full quart in,
but that is not common and I usually have done that just because I did
not want to carry an open container around in the aircraft so I just
poured it all in. Probably not too smart. CLEARLY this is over the
recommended amount... but I really don't think it has hurt anything
since I have been doing it for almost 10 years now. So, I suppose the
answer to your question is to simply run the recommended amount but if
you go a little over ... it doesn't seem to hurt anything. This is
subject to change by someone who knows more than me about the issue!
>
> As for oil.... I use MMO as a kind of "cleaner". When I get ready to
change the oil in my engine, I pour in TWO QUARTS of MMO and then go for
a short flight and run the engine hard. I then come back and
immediately drain it all out. Again, this might not be a great
recommendation, but it is what I do.
>
> In short, the subject of MMO, how much to use, when to use it, and
whether it is even any good in the first place.... is something that has
been a hot topic on this list server for quite a number of years. In
no way would I dare to recommend a certain amount, or even claim that
the stuff really works! I use it because it does not seem to hurt
anything, and APPEARS to have helped me regarding valve leading issues.
>
> Mark
>
>
> From: Javier Carrasco
> Sent: Wed 10/6/2010 8:57 PM
> To: Mark Sorenson; yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
>
> Hi Mark!
>
> Hope you are doing great!
>
> Hey I got the Spakplug kit from Dennis Savarece and the difference is
just unbelievable!
>
> Hey are you using the Marvel Mystery Oil?
>
> If so in what proportion?
>
> And do you add it everytime you put gas? or how often?
>
> Regards, Javier
> --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> From: Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
> To: "Mark Sorenson" <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 7:43 AM
>
> Sorry about the previous misfire with no photo attached.
>
> This was captured yesterday at the TICO Airshow, in Titusville, FL.
Other than having to deal with winds up to 30 mph it was a
grrrrrrrrrreat day among grrrrrrrrrrreat people.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Mark Sorenson
> 678-GO-FLY-HI
> www.tigerairshows.com
>
>
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM
protGBL/go/210850553/direct/01/">Sign up now.
>
>
>
> et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> p://forums.matronics.com/
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
Well, since you were replying to a message that I wrote when you posted this Richard,
I will assume that you were directing your reply and tongue in cheek comments
to what I wrote.
Let me say again for the record. I do not recommend MMO to anyone for any purpose
in any engine. Many others actually do, and there are numerous articles supporting
it's use for lead reduction, but since this topic has been discussed
"Ad Nauseum" on this list, and since many readers are sick and tired of hearing
the same old song and verse, I am not about to start up that whole tired argument
yet again.
That said, I have seen numerous engines with lead fouling on the valves, and it
has happened to my engine twice. Since I have run MMO, I have not had any problems
with leading on the valves. That is far from a good analysis, nor is
it scientific, and it is not something I am going stand up on a soap box and argue
about.
If you need information about MMO, this is not the forum to get it from (IMHO).
However, to address your question about how CamGuard compares to MMO, the answer
is that they are two totally different products intended for two totally
different purposes at least for the use I was discussing. CamGuard is an additive
supplement formulated to address the complex and interrelated problems of
corrosion, wear, deposits and seal degradation in piston engines. Quote Unquote.
It goes in the oil. I am putting MMO into the FUEL. Kind of different applications,
don't you think?
If you want a sample size of more than "one", maybe you ought to look around on the Internet for more comments on the matter. You can start with this one: http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm
In the end, regardless of what you feel like kissing Richard, I fully intend to
continue using this product in the engines I operate.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of RICHARD VOLKER
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
I need information about MMO. Is there any aviation engine testing available with
this additive? Are aircraft owners that are using this oil actually trusting
anecdotal evidence or it's performance in non-aviation engines? How does this
additive compare to CamGuard? The engine teardown testing by Monte Barrett
and others completely reinforces CamGuard claims, as has many independent, scientifically
performed studies. A sample size of one is statistically useless in
proving anything. Wait a minute, I kiss my Sukhoi after every flight and it
is running better than ever. Anybody else care to try that?
Rick Volker
On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
wrote:
Hello Javier,
Glad to hear you are happy with the ignition upgrade kit from Dennis. I have
been involved with that mod on several aircraft and in each case, the improvement
has been very noticable, especially at idle.
Yes, I do use MMO... but clearly I am no expert in it's use. I am one of these
stupid people that think: "if a little bit is good, then a lot is even better!".
That is not an especially "informed or wise" point of view, but you asked,
so I am admitting it! :-)
My YAK-50 holds about 32 gallons. I put about 1/2 quart or more in for a full
tank. In some cases, I've put as much as a full quart in, but that is not common
and I usually have done that just because I did not want to carry an open
container around in the aircraft so I just poured it all in. Probably not too
smart. CLEARLY this is over the recommended amount... but I really don't think
it has hurt anything since I have been doing it for almost 10 years now.
So, I suppose the answer to your question is to simply run the recommended amount
but if you go a little over ... it doesn't seem to hurt anything. This
is subject to change by someone who knows more than me about the issue!
As for oil.... I use MMO as a kind of "cleaner". When I get ready to change the
oil in my engine, I pour in TWO QUARTS of MMO and then go for a short flight
and run the engine hard. I then come back and immediately drain it all out.
Again, this might not be a great recommendation, but it is what I do.
In short, the subject of MMO, how much to use, when to use it, and whether it
is even any good in the first place.... is something that has been a hot topic
on this list server for quite a number of years. In no way would I dare to
recommend a certain amount, or even claim that the stuff really works! I use
it because it does not seem to hurt anything, and APPEARS to have helped me regarding
valve leading issues.
Mark
________________________________
From: Javier Carrasco
Sent: Wed 10/6/2010 8:57 PM
To: Mark Sorenson; yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
Hi Mark!
Hope you are doing great!
Hey I got the Spakplug kit from Dennis Savarece and the difference is just unbelievable!
Hey are you using the Marvel Mystery Oil?
If so in what proportion?
And do you add it everytime you put gas? or how often?
Regards, Javier
--- On Sun, 3/14/10, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
To: "Mark Sorenson" <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 7:43 AM
Sorry about the previous misfire with no photo attached.
This was captured yesterday at the TICO Airshow, in Titusville, FL. Other than
having to deal with winds up to 30 mph it was a grrrrrrrrrreat day among grrrrrrrrrrreat
people.
Best regards,
Mark Sorenson
678-GO-FLY-HI
www.tigerairshows.com
________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protGBL/go/210850553/direct/01/">Sign
up now.
et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
p://forums.matronics.com/
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
Would you use CamGuard?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
Well, since you were replying to a message that I wrote when you posted this Richard,
I will assume that you were directing your reply and tongue in cheek comments
to what I wrote.
Let me say again for the record. I do not recommend MMO to anyone for any purpose
in any engine. Many others actually do, and there are numerous articles supporting
it's use for lead reduction, but since this topic has been discussed
"Ad Nauseum" on this list, and since many readers are sick and tired of hearing
the same old song and verse, I am not about to start up that whole tired argument
yet again.
That said, I have seen numerous engines with lead fouling on the valves, and it
has happened to my engine twice. Since I have run MMO, I have not had any problems
with leading on the valves. That is far from a good analysis, nor is
it scientific, and it is not something I am going stand up on a soap box and argue
about.
If you need information about MMO, this is not the forum to get it from (IMHO).
However, to address your question about how CamGuard compares to MMO, the answer
is that they are two totally different products intended for two totally
different purposes at least for the use I was discussing. CamGuard is an additive
supplement formulated to address the complex and interrelated problems of
corrosion, wear, deposits and seal degradation in piston engines. Quote Unquote.
It goes in the oil. I am putting MMO into the FUEL. Kind of different applications,
don't you think?
If you want a sample size of more than "one", maybe you ought to look around on the Internet for more comments on the matter. You can start with this one: http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm
In the end, regardless of what you feel like kissing Richard, I fully intend to
continue using this product in the engines I operate.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of RICHARD VOLKER
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
I need information about MMO. Is there any aviation engine testing available with
this additive? Are aircraft owners that are using this oil actually trusting
anecdotal evidence or it's performance in non-aviation engines? How does this
additive compare to CamGuard? The engine teardown testing by Monte Barrett
and others completely reinforces CamGuard claims, as has many independent, scientifically
performed studies. A sample size of one is statistically useless in
proving anything. Wait a minute, I kiss my Sukhoi after every flight and it
is running better than ever. Anybody else care to try that?
Rick Volker
On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
wrote:
Hello Javier,
Glad to hear you are happy with the ignition upgrade kit from Dennis. I have
been involved with that mod on several aircraft and in each case, the improvement
has been very noticable, especially at idle.
Yes, I do use MMO... but clearly I am no expert in it's use. I am one of these
stupid people that think: "if a little bit is good, then a lot is even better!".
That is not an especially "informed or wise" point of view, but you asked,
so I am admitting it! :-)
My YAK-50 holds about 32 gallons. I put about 1/2 quart or more in for a full
tank. In some cases, I've put as much as a full quart in, but that is not common
and I usually have done that just because I did not want to carry an open
container around in the aircraft so I just poured it all in. Probably not too
smart. CLEARLY this is over the recommended amount... but I really don't think
it has hurt anything since I have been doing it for almost 10 years now.
So, I suppose the answer to your question is to simply run the recommended amount
but if you go a little over ... it doesn't seem to hurt anything. This
is subject to change by someone who knows more than me about the issue!
As for oil.... I use MMO as a kind of "cleaner". When I get ready to change the
oil in my engine, I pour in TWO QUARTS of MMO and then go for a short flight
and run the engine hard. I then come back and immediately drain it all out.
Again, this might not be a great recommendation, but it is what I do.
In short, the subject of MMO, how much to use, when to use it, and whether it
is even any good in the first place.... is something that has been a hot topic
on this list server for quite a number of years. In no way would I dare to
recommend a certain amount, or even claim that the stuff really works! I use
it because it does not seem to hurt anything, and APPEARS to have helped me regarding
valve leading issues.
Mark
________________________________
From: Javier Carrasco
Sent: Wed 10/6/2010 8:57 PM
To: Mark Sorenson; yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
Hi Mark!
Hope you are doing great!
Hey I got the Spakplug kit from Dennis Savarece and the difference is just unbelievable!
Hey are you using the Marvel Mystery Oil?
If so in what proportion?
And do you add it everytime you put gas? or how often?
Regards, Javier
--- On Sun, 3/14/10, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
To: "Mark Sorenson" <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 7:43 AM
Sorry about the previous misfire with no photo attached.
This was captured yesterday at the TICO Airshow, in Titusville, FL. Other than
having to deal with winds up to 30 mph it was a grrrrrrrrrreat day among grrrrrrrrrrreat
people.
Best regards,
Mark Sorenson
678-GO-FLY-HI
www.tigerairshows.com
________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protGBL/go/210850553/direct/01/">Sign
up now.
et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
p://forums.matronics.com/
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
Mark,
I disagree with your HO. This IS the place to get information about a products
such as MMO.
I don't care about the methods of it's delicious smelling madness or it's chemical
formula. I do care that it works or not, and as you mention, it does. I know
numerous M-14 owners that have eliminated sticking valves since using this
stuff. I use it in my Housai and I can tell you that I run my engine very hard
and have not had a problem in my 250 hrs of ownership using MMO. I can absolutely
feel the difference in the smoothness of my engine after going without for
a couple tankfuls. There are a lot of folks here (you included) that have so
much experience with trial and error regarding these machine and I appreciate
the shared knowledge.
Semper Fi,
Keith
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315150#315150
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
I didn't take Rick's remarks as comparing the functions of the
products, but rather a comparison of the evidence of their efficacy.
Probably, we have all tried things that we swear worked without much
scientific confirmation. MMO is a weird case, because it has a lot of
fans and apparently was even a Mil Spec product during the war.
Theories for why it works (if you believe it does) vary quite a bit.
Chemists seem to think that the "vapor blast" explanation is whack.
Appropriately, this stuff has "Mystery" in its name.
I haven't had one particular M-14P for a thousand hours as is the case
with some folks, so I don't have the tear down evidence to examine.
However, you'd think that an engine that has to be run up before you
shut it down wouldn't have the valve lead salt deposit problem.
I'm guessing MMO doesn't hurt. That TCP stuff seems pretty nasty to
touch or transport.
Imagine how fun it will be when we get the new fuel.
On Oct 8, 2010, at 4:33 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Well, since you were replying to a message that I wrote when you
> posted this Richard, I will assume that you were directing your
> reply and tongue in cheek comments to what I wrote.
>
> Let me say again for the record. I do not recommend MMO to anyone
> for any purpose in any engine. Many others actually do, and there
> are numerous articles supporting it's use for lead reduction, but
> since this topic has been discussed "Ad Nauseum" on this list, and
> since many readers are sick and tired of hearing the same old song
> and verse, I am not about to start up that whole tired argument yet
> again.
>
> That said, I have seen numerous engines with lead fouling on the
> valves, and it has happened to my engine twice. Since I have run
> MMO, I have not had any problems with leading on the valves. That
> is far from a good analysis, nor is it scientific, and it is not
> something I am going stand up on a soap box and argue about.
>
> If you need information about MMO, this is not the forum to get it
> from (IMHO). However, to address your question about how CamGuard
> compares to MMO, the answer is that they are two totally different
> products intended for two totally different purposes at least for
> the use I was discussing. CamGuard is an additive supplement
> formulated to address the complex and interrelated problems of
> corrosion, wear, deposits and seal degradation in piston engines.
> Quote Unquote.
>
> It goes in the oil. I am putting MMO into the FUEL. Kind of
> different applications, don't you think?
>
> If you want a sample size of more than "one", maybe you ought to
> look around on the Internet for more comments on the matter. You
> can start with this one: http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm
>
> In the end, regardless of what you feel like kissing Richard, I
> fully intend to continue using this product in the engines I operate.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of RICHARD VOLKER
> Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:15 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
>
>
> I need information about MMO. Is there any aviation engine testing
> available with this additive? Are aircraft owners that are using
> this oil actually trusting anecdotal evidence or it's performance in
> non-aviation engines? How does this additive compare to CamGuard?
> The engine teardown testing by Monte Barrett and others completely
> reinforces CamGuard claims, as has many independent, scientifically
> performed studies. A sample size of one is statistically useless in
> proving anything. Wait a minute, I kiss my Sukhoi after every
> flight and it is running better than ever. Anybody else care to try
> that?
> Rick Volker
>
> On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
> MALS-14 64E wrote:
>
>
> Hello Javier,
>
> Glad to hear you are happy with the ignition upgrade kit from
> Dennis. I have been involved with that mod on several aircraft
> and in each case, the improvement has been very noticable,
> especially at idle.
>
> Yes, I do use MMO... but clearly I am no expert in it's use. I am
> one of these stupid people that think: "if a little bit is good,
> then a lot is even better!". That is not an especially "informed or
> wise" point of view, but you asked, so I am admitting it! :-)
>
> My YAK-50 holds about 32 gallons. I put about 1/2 quart or more in
> for a full tank. In some cases, I've put as much as a full quart
> in, but that is not common and I usually have done that just because
> I did not want to carry an open container around in the aircraft so
> I just poured it all in. Probably not too smart. CLEARLY this is
> over the recommended amount... but I really don't think it has hurt
> anything since I have been doing it for almost 10 years now. So, I
> suppose the answer to your question is to simply run the recommended
> amount but if you go a little over ... it doesn't seem to hurt
> anything. This is subject to change by someone who knows more
> than me about the issue!
>
> As for oil.... I use MMO as a kind of "cleaner". When I get ready
> to change the oil in my engine, I pour in TWO QUARTS of MMO and then
> go for a short flight and run the engine hard. I then come back and
> immediately drain it all out. Again, this might not be a great
> recommendation, but it is what I do.
>
> In short, the subject of MMO, how much to use, when to use it, and
> whether it is even any good in the first place.... is something that
> has been a hot topic on this list server for quite a number of
> years. In no way would I dare to recommend a certain amount, or
> even claim that the stuff really works! I use it because it does
> not seem to hurt anything, and APPEARS to have helped me regarding
> valve leading issues.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Javier Carrasco
> Sent: Wed 10/6/2010 8:57 PM
> To: Mark Sorenson; yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
>
>
> Hi Mark!
>
> Hope you are doing great!
>
> Hey I got the Spakplug kit from Dennis Savarece and the difference
> is just unbelievable!
>
> Hey are you using the Marvel Mystery Oil?
>
> If so in what proportion?
>
> And do you add it everytime you put gas? or how often?
>
> Regards, Javier
> --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
> To: "Mark Sorenson" <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 7:43 AM
>
>
> Sorry about the previous misfire with no photo attached.
>
> This was captured yesterday at the TICO Airshow, in Titusville,
> FL. Other than having to deal with winds up to 30 mph it was a
> grrrrrrrrrreat day among grrrrrrrrrrreat people.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Mark Sorenson
> 678-GO-FLY-HI
> www.tigerairshows.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protGBL/go/210850553/
> direct/01/">Sign up now.
>
>
>
>
> et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> p://forums.matronics.com/
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
OK,
seriously then....
It looks as though there are countless testimonials supporting the helpful properties
of MMO. I respect your opinion regarding its use. It is difficult to
find scientifically supportive documentation of this product on line, piper site
and all. I would be interested in MMO, particularly after reading how Swift
fuel may be coming our way. After the FAA test run of an IO540 engine for 150
hours, some mention was made of slight fuel pump wear or leaking as the only
problem. MMO might be a way to counter this effect. A product like MMO might
be the best thing since sliced bread, but no one stands to make extra money
from the product certification for the tiny aviation market. I realize that CamGuard
is different, but the testing related to its certified use is what I was
referring to.
I have not heard anything bad about its use. I will review the Yak List archives
to read more. Up until now, I have treated my M14P's as though they were
certified engines, thinking resale might be better from the buyer's increased
confidence level in my care. Now, maybe thats not the best course. I have
never had lead deposits in the engines I've used. Piston scuffing and cracked
rings were seen in a past engine. I am counting on rigorous control of CHT's
and CamGuard to improve this behavior in my new engine. Monty Barrett has claimed
that these two things were the bane of the original design.
Thanks for the info
Rick Volker
On Oct 8, 2010, at 4:33 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
wrote:
>
> Well, since you were replying to a message that I wrote when you posted this
Richard, I will assume that you were directing your reply and tongue in cheek
comments to what I wrote.
>
> Let me say again for the record. I do not recommend MMO to anyone for any purpose
in any engine. Many others actually do, and there are numerous articles
supporting it's use for lead reduction, but since this topic has been discussed
"Ad Nauseum" on this list, and since many readers are sick and tired of hearing
the same old song and verse, I am not about to start up that whole tired
argument yet again.
>
> That said, I have seen numerous engines with lead fouling on the valves, and
it has happened to my engine twice. Since I have run MMO, I have not had any
problems with leading on the valves. That is far from a good analysis, nor is
it scientific, and it is not something I am going stand up on a soap box and
argue about.
>
> If you need information about MMO, this is not the forum to get it from (IMHO).
However, to address your question about how CamGuard compares to MMO, the
answer is that they are two totally different products intended for two totally
different purposes at least for the use I was discussing. CamGuard is an additive
supplement formulated to address the complex and interrelated problems
of corrosion, wear, deposits and seal degradation in piston engines. Quote Unquote.
>
> It goes in the oil. I am putting MMO into the FUEL. Kind of different applications,
don't you think?
>
> If you want a sample size of more than "one", maybe you ought to look around on the Internet for more comments on the matter. You can start with this one: http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm
>
> In the end, regardless of what you feel like kissing Richard, I fully intend
to continue using this product in the engines I operate.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of RICHARD VOLKER
> Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:15 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
>
>
> I need information about MMO. Is there any aviation engine testing available
with this additive? Are aircraft owners that are using this oil actually trusting
anecdotal evidence or it's performance in non-aviation engines? How does
this additive compare to CamGuard? The engine teardown testing by Monte Barrett
and others completely reinforces CamGuard claims, as has many independent, scientifically
performed studies. A sample size of one is statistically useless
in proving anything. Wait a minute, I kiss my Sukhoi after every flight and
it is running better than ever. Anybody else care to try that?
> Rick Volker
>
> On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E wrote:
>
>
> Hello Javier,
>
> Glad to hear you are happy with the ignition upgrade kit from Dennis. I have
been involved with that mod on several aircraft and in each case, the improvement
has been very noticable, especially at idle.
>
> Yes, I do use MMO... but clearly I am no expert in it's use. I am one of these
stupid people that think: "if a little bit is good, then a lot is even better!".
That is not an especially "informed or wise" point of view, but you asked,
so I am admitting it! :-)
>
> My YAK-50 holds about 32 gallons. I put about 1/2 quart or more in for a full
tank. In some cases, I've put as much as a full quart in, but that is not
common and I usually have done that just because I did not want to carry an open
container around in the aircraft so I just poured it all in. Probably not
too smart. CLEARLY this is over the recommended amount... but I really don't
think it has hurt anything since I have been doing it for almost 10 years now.
So, I suppose the answer to your question is to simply run the recommended
amount but if you go a little over ... it doesn't seem to hurt anything. This
is subject to change by someone who knows more than me about the issue!
>
> As for oil.... I use MMO as a kind of "cleaner". When I get ready to change
the oil in my engine, I pour in TWO QUARTS of MMO and then go for a short flight
and run the engine hard. I then come back and immediately drain it all out.
Again, this might not be a great recommendation, but it is what I do.
>
> In short, the subject of MMO, how much to use, when to use it, and whether it
is even any good in the first place.... is something that has been a hot topic
on this list server for quite a number of years. In no way would I dare to
recommend a certain amount, or even claim that the stuff really works! I use
it because it does not seem to hurt anything, and APPEARS to have helped me
regarding valve leading issues.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Javier Carrasco
> Sent: Wed 10/6/2010 8:57 PM
> To: Mark Sorenson; yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
>
>
> Hi Mark!
>
> Hope you are doing great!
>
> Hey I got the Spakplug kit from Dennis Savarece and the difference is just unbelievable!
>
> Hey are you using the Marvel Mystery Oil?
>
> If so in what proportion?
>
> And do you add it everytime you put gas? or how often?
>
> Regards, Javier
> --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> From: Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
> To: "Mark Sorenson" <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 7:43 AM
>
>
> Sorry about the previous misfire with no photo attached.
>
> This was captured yesterday at the TICO Airshow, in Titusville, FL. Other than
having to deal with winds up to 30 mph it was a grrrrrrrrrreat day among grrrrrrrrrrreat
people.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Mark Sorenson
> 678-GO-FLY-HI
> www.tigerairshows.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protGBL/go/210850553/direct/01/">Sign
up now.
>
>
>
>
> et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> p://forums.matronics.com/
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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I have a large G-meter that I don't need (fits the large hole!) . Works fine.
keith@mckinley.us
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315161#315161
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
I stand corrected.
Aragota Nai.
S/F,
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of keithmckinley
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 5:17 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
Mark,
I disagree with your HO. This IS the place to get information about a products
such as MMO.
I don't care about the methods of it's delicious smelling madness or it's chemical
formula. I do care that it works or not, and as you mention, it does. I know
numerous M-14 owners that have eliminated sticking valves since using this
stuff. I use it in my Housai and I can tell you that I run my engine very hard
and have not had a problem in my 250 hrs of ownership using MMO. I can absolutely
feel the difference in the smoothness of my engine after going without for
a couple tankfuls. There are a lot of folks here (you included) that have so
much experience with trial and error regarding these machine and I appreciate
the shared knowledge.
Semper Fi,
Keith
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315150#315150
Message 9
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| Subject: | MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
Short answer: Yes I would.
Long answer: I have not used CamGuard personally, but am considering it. From
what I can read it is a good product. In the past, I have run my engine every
weekend or more. I have changed the oil every 50 hours or less. I had not
really considered CamGuard necessary. However.... my YAK-50 does not fly as
much as it used to and CamGuard might be a wise investment.
To be perfectly candid, I was kind of hoping someone else would run it for awhile
first and let me gain from their experience.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of rick@rvairshows.com
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
Would you use CamGuard?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
Well, since you were replying to a message that I wrote when you posted this Richard,
I will assume that you were directing your reply and tongue in cheek comments
to what I wrote.
Let me say again for the record. I do not recommend MMO to anyone for any purpose
in any engine. Many others actually do, and there are numerous articles supporting
it's use for lead reduction, but since this topic has been discussed
"Ad Nauseum" on this list, and since many readers are sick and tired of hearing
the same old song and verse, I am not about to start up that whole tired argument
yet again.
That said, I have seen numerous engines with lead fouling on the valves, and it
has happened to my engine twice. Since I have run MMO, I have not had any problems
with leading on the valves. That is far from a good analysis, nor is
it scientific, and it is not something I am going stand up on a soap box and argue
about.
If you need information about MMO, this is not the forum to get it from (IMHO).
However, to address your question about how CamGuard compares to MMO, the answer
is that they are two totally different products intended for two totally
different purposes at least for the use I was discussing. CamGuard is an additive
supplement formulated to address the complex and interrelated problems of
corrosion, wear, deposits and seal degradation in piston engines. Quote Unquote.
It goes in the oil. I am putting MMO into the FUEL. Kind of different applications,
don't you think?
If you want a sample size of more than "one", maybe you ought to look around on the Internet for more comments on the matter. You can start with this one: http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm
In the end, regardless of what you feel like kissing Richard, I fully intend to
continue using this product in the engines I operate.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of RICHARD VOLKER
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
I need information about MMO. Is there any aviation engine testing available with
this additive? Are aircraft owners that are using this oil actually trusting
anecdotal evidence or it's performance in non-aviation engines? How does this
additive compare to CamGuard? The engine teardown testing by Monte Barrett
and others completely reinforces CamGuard claims, as has many independent, scientifically
performed studies. A sample size of one is statistically useless in
proving anything. Wait a minute, I kiss my Sukhoi after every flight and it
is running better than ever. Anybody else care to try that?
Rick Volker
On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
wrote:
Hello Javier,
Glad to hear you are happy with the ignition upgrade kit from Dennis.
I have been involved with that mod on several aircraft and in each case, the
improvement has been very noticable, especially at idle.
Yes, I do use MMO... but clearly I am no expert in it's use. I am one
of these stupid people that think: "if a little bit is good, then a lot is even
better!". That is not an especially "informed or wise" point of view, but you
asked, so I am admitting it! :-)
My YAK-50 holds about 32 gallons. I put about 1/2 quart or more in for
a full tank. In some cases, I've put as much as a full quart in, but that is
not common and I usually have done that just because I did not want to carry
an open container around in the aircraft so I just poured it all in. Probably
not too smart. CLEARLY this is over the recommended amount... but I really
don't think it has hurt anything since I have been doing it for almost 10 years
now. So, I suppose the answer to your question is to simply run the recommended
amount but if you go a little over ... it doesn't seem to hurt anything.
This is subject to change by someone who knows more than me about the issue!
As for oil.... I use MMO as a kind of "cleaner". When I get ready to change
the oil in my engine, I pour in TWO QUARTS of MMO and then go for a short
flight and run the engine hard. I then come back and immediately drain it all
out. Again, this might not be a great recommendation, but it is what I do.
In short, the subject of MMO, how much to use, when to use it, and whether
it is even any good in the first place.... is something that has been a hot
topic on this list server for quite a number of years. In no way would I dare
to recommend a certain amount, or even claim that the stuff really works!
I use it because it does not seem to hurt anything, and APPEARS to have helped
me regarding valve leading issues.
Mark
________________________________
From: Javier Carrasco
Sent: Wed 10/6/2010 8:57 PM
To: Mark Sorenson; yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
Hi Mark!
Hope you are doing great!
Hey I got the Spakplug kit from Dennis Savarece and the difference is just unbelievable!
Hey are you using the Marvel Mystery Oil?
If so in what proportion?
And do you add it everytime you put gas? or how often?
Regards, Javier
--- On Sun, 3/14/10, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
To: "Mark Sorenson" <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 7:43 AM
Sorry about the previous misfire with no photo attached.
This was captured yesterday at the TICO Airshow, in Titusville, FL. Other
than having to deal with winds up to 30 mph it was a grrrrrrrrrreat day among
grrrrrrrrrrreat people.
Best regards,
Mark Sorenson
678-GO-FLY-HI
www.tigerairshows.com
________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protGBL/go/210850553/direct/01/">Sign
up now.
et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
p://forums.matronics.com/
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
What about Microlon? Anybody have experience with it?
+-----Original Message-----
+From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E [mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil]
+Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 06:55 PM
+To: yak-list@matronics.com
+Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
+
+
+I stand corrected.
+
+Aragota Nai.
+
+S/F,
+
+Mark
+
+
+________________________________
+
+From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of keithmckinley
+Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 5:17 PM
+To: yak-list@matronics.com
+Subject: Yak-List: Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
+
+
+
+
+Mark,
+
+I disagree with your HO. This IS the place to get information about a products
such as MMO.
+
+I don't care about the methods of it's delicious smelling madness or it's chemical
formula. I do care that it works or not, and as you mention, it does. I know
numerous M-14 owners that have eliminated sticking valves since using this
stuff. I use it in my Housai and I can tell you that I run my engine very hard
and have not had a problem in my 250 hrs of ownership using MMO. I can absolutely
feel the difference in the smoothness of my engine after going without
for a couple tankfuls. There are a lot of folks here (you included) that have
so much experience with trial and error regarding these machine and I appreciate
the shared knowledge.
+
+Semper Fi,
+
+Keith
+
+--------
+Keith McKinley
+700HS
+KFIT
+
+
+
+
+Read this topic online here:
+
+http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315150#315150
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
I have been running CamGuard during daily flights at 100 % power for half of each
flight. Max cruise for the other half. Will let you know how it turns out
compared to past M14P engines with same service history. CHT's never get over
380 degrees F. And oil temperatures in the green. I am looking for wear protection,
obviously.
Rick Volker.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
Short answer: Yes I would.
Long answer: I have not used CamGuard personally, but am considering it. From
what I can read it is a good product. In the past, I have run my engine every
weekend or more. I have changed the oil every 50 hours or less. I had not
really considered CamGuard necessary. However.... my YAK-50 does not fly as
much as it used to and CamGuard might be a wise investment.
To be perfectly candid, I was kind of hoping someone else would run it for awhile
first and let me gain from their experience.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of rick@rvairshows.com
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
Would you use CamGuard?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
Well, since you were replying to a message that I wrote when you posted this Richard,
I will assume that you were directing your reply and tongue in cheek comments
to what I wrote.
Let me say again for the record. I do not recommend MMO to anyone for any purpose
in any engine. Many others actually do, and there are numerous articles supporting
it's use for lead reduction, but since this topic has been discussed
"Ad Nauseum" on this list, and since many readers are sick and tired of hearing
the same old song and verse, I am not about to start up that whole tired argument
yet again.
That said, I have seen numerous engines with lead fouling on the valves, and it
has happened to my engine twice. Since I have run MMO, I have not had any problems
with leading on the valves. That is far from a good analysis, nor is
it scientific, and it is not something I am going stand up on a soap box and argue
about.
If you need information about MMO, this is not the forum to get it from (IMHO).
However, to address your question about how CamGuard compares to MMO, the answer
is that they are two totally different products intended for two totally
different purposes at least for the use I was discussing. CamGuard is an additive
supplement formulated to address the complex and interrelated problems of
corrosion, wear, deposits and seal degradation in piston engines. Quote Unquote.
It goes in the oil. I am putting MMO into the FUEL. Kind of different applications,
don't you think?
If you want a sample size of more than "one", maybe you ought to look around on the Internet for more comments on the matter. You can start with this one: http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm
In the end, regardless of what you feel like kissing Richard, I fully intend to
continue using this product in the engines I operate.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of RICHARD VOLKER
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
I need information about MMO. Is there any aviation engine testing available with
this additive? Are aircraft owners that are using this oil actually trusting
anecdotal evidence or it's performance in non-aviation engines? How does this
additive compare to CamGuard? The engine teardown testing by Monte Barrett
and others completely reinforces CamGuard claims, as has many independent, scientifically
performed studies. A sample size of one is statistically useless in
proving anything. Wait a minute, I kiss my Sukhoi after every flight and it
is running better than ever. Anybody else care to try that?
Rick Volker
On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
wrote:
Hello Javier,
Glad to hear you are happy with the ignition upgrade kit from Dennis.
I have been involved with that mod on several aircraft and in each case, the
improvement has been very noticable, especially at idle.
Yes, I do use MMO... but clearly I am no expert in it's use. I am one
of these stupid people that think: "if a little bit is good, then a lot is even
better!". That is not an especially "informed or wise" point of view, but you
asked, so I am admitting it! :-)
My YAK-50 holds about 32 gallons. I put about 1/2 quart or more in for
a full tank. In some cases, I've put as much as a full quart in, but that is
not common and I usually have done that just because I did not want to carry
an open container around in the aircraft so I just poured it all in. Probably
not too smart. CLEARLY this is over the recommended amount... but I really
don't think it has hurt anything since I have been doing it for almost 10 years
now. So, I suppose the answer to your question is to simply run the recommended
amount but if you go a little over ... it doesn't seem to hurt anything.
This is subject to change by someone who knows more than me about the issue!
As for oil.... I use MMO as a kind of "cleaner". When I get ready to change
the oil in my engine, I pour in TWO QUARTS of MMO and then go for a short
flight and run the engine hard. I then come back and immediately drain it all
out. Again, this might not be a great recommendation, but it is what I do.
In short, the subject of MMO, how much to use, when to use it, and whether
it is even any good in the first place.... is something that has been a hot
topic on this list server for quite a number of years. In no way would I dare
to recommend a certain amount, or even claim that the stuff really works!
I use it because it does not seem to hurt anything, and APPEARS to have helped
me regarding valve leading issues.
Mark
________________________________
From: Javier Carrasco
Sent: Wed 10/6/2010 8:57 PM
To: Mark Sorenson; yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
Hi Mark!
Hope you are doing great!
Hey I got the Spakplug kit from Dennis Savarece and the difference is just unbelievable!
Hey are you using the Marvel Mystery Oil?
If so in what proportion?
And do you add it everytime you put gas? or how often?
Regards, Javier
--- On Sun, 3/14/10, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
To: "Mark Sorenson" <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 7:43 AM
Sorry about the previous misfire with no photo attached.
This was captured yesterday at the TICO Airshow, in Titusville, FL. Other
than having to deal with winds up to 30 mph it was a grrrrrrrrrreat day among
grrrrrrrrrrreat people.
Best regards,
Mark Sorenson
678-GO-FLY-HI
www.tigerairshows.com
________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protGBL/go/210850553/direct/01/">Sign
up now.
et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
p://forums.matronics.com/
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
I put it into my M-14 10 years ago and did not see any impact.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of William Halverson
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
What about Microlon? Anybody have experience with it?
+-----Original Message-----
+From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E [mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil]
+Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 06:55 PM
+To: yak-list@matronics.com
+Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
+
+
+I stand corrected.
+
+Aragota Nai.
+
+S/F,
+
+Mark
+
+
+________________________________
+
+From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of keithmckinley
+Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 5:17 PM
+To: yak-list@matronics.com
+Subject: Yak-List: Re: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
+
+
+
+
+Mark,
+
+I disagree with your HO. This IS the place to get information about a products
such as MMO.
+
+I don't care about the methods of it's delicious smelling madness or it's chemical
formula. I do care that it works or not, and as you mention, it does. I know
numerous M-14 owners that have eliminated sticking valves since using this
stuff. I use it in my Housai and I can tell you that I run my engine very hard
and have not had a problem in my 250 hrs of ownership using MMO. I can absolutely
feel the difference in the smoothness of my engine after going without
for a couple tankfuls. There are a lot of folks here (you included) that have
so much experience with trial and error regarding these machine and I appreciate
the shared knowledge.
+
+Semper Fi,
+
+Keith
+
+--------
+Keith McKinley
+700HS
+KFIT
+
+
+
+
+Read this topic online here:
+
+http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315150#315150
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
Message 13
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| Subject: | MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
Are you saying that you feel that CamGuard impacts cylinder head temperatures and
oil temperatures?
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of rick@rvairshows.com
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
I have been running CamGuard during daily flights at 100 % power for half of each
flight. Max cruise for the other half. Will let you know how it turns out
compared to past M14P engines with same service history. CHT's never get over
380 degrees F. And oil temperatures in the green. I am looking for wear protection,
obviously.
Rick Volker.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
Short answer: Yes I would.
Long answer: I have not used CamGuard personally, but am considering it. From
what I can read it is a good product. In the past, I have run my engine every
weekend or more. I have changed the oil every 50 hours or less. I had not
really considered CamGuard necessary. However.... my YAK-50 does not fly as
much as it used to and CamGuard might be a wise investment.
To be perfectly candid, I was kind of hoping someone else would run it for awhile
first and let me gain from their experience.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of rick@rvairshows.com
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
Would you use CamGuard?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sender: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
Well, since you were replying to a message that I wrote when you posted this Richard,
I will assume that you were directing your reply and tongue in cheek comments
to what I wrote.
Let me say again for the record. I do not recommend MMO to anyone for any purpose
in any engine. Many others actually do, and there are numerous articles supporting
it's use for lead reduction, but since this topic has been discussed
"Ad Nauseum" on this list, and since many readers are sick and tired of hearing
the same old song and verse, I am not about to start up that whole tired argument
yet again.
That said, I have seen numerous engines with lead fouling on the valves, and it
has happened to my engine twice. Since I have run MMO, I have not had any problems
with leading on the valves. That is far from a good analysis, nor is
it scientific, and it is not something I am going stand up on a soap box and argue
about.
If you need information about MMO, this is not the forum to get it from (IMHO).
However, to address your question about how CamGuard compares to MMO, the answer
is that they are two totally different products intended for two totally
different purposes at least for the use I was discussing. CamGuard is an additive
supplement formulated to address the complex and interrelated problems of
corrosion, wear, deposits and seal degradation in piston engines. Quote Unquote.
It goes in the oil. I am putting MMO into the FUEL. Kind of different applications,
don't you think?
If you want a sample size of more than "one", maybe you ought to look around on the Internet for more comments on the matter. You can start with this one: http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm
In the end, regardless of what you feel like kissing Richard, I fully intend to
continue using this product in the engines I operate.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of RICHARD VOLKER
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
I need information about MMO. Is there any aviation engine testing available with
this additive? Are aircraft owners that are using this oil actually trusting
anecdotal evidence or it's performance in non-aviation engines? How does this
additive compare to CamGuard? The engine teardown testing by Monte Barrett
and others completely reinforces CamGuard claims, as has many independent, scientifically
performed studies. A sample size of one is statistically useless in
proving anything. Wait a minute, I kiss my Sukhoi after every flight and it
is running better than ever. Anybody else care to try that?
Rick Volker
On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
wrote:
Hello Javier,
Glad to hear you are happy with the ignition upgrade kit from Dennis.
I have been involved with that mod on several aircraft and in each case, the
improvement has been very noticable, especially at idle.
Yes, I do use MMO... but clearly I am no expert in it's use. I am one
of these stupid people that think: "if a little bit is good, then a lot is even
better!". That is not an especially "informed or wise" point of view, but you
asked, so I am admitting it! :-)
My YAK-50 holds about 32 gallons. I put about 1/2 quart or more in for
a full tank. In some cases, I've put as much as a full quart in, but that is
not common and I usually have done that just because I did not want to carry
an open container around in the aircraft so I just poured it all in. Probably
not too smart. CLEARLY this is over the recommended amount... but I really
don't think it has hurt anything since I have been doing it for almost 10 years
now. So, I suppose the answer to your question is to simply run the recommended
amount but if you go a little over ... it doesn't seem to hurt anything.
This is subject to change by someone who knows more than me about the issue!
As for oil.... I use MMO as a kind of "cleaner". When I get ready to change
the oil in my engine, I pour in TWO QUARTS of MMO and then go for a short
flight and run the engine hard. I then come back and immediately drain it all
out. Again, this might not be a great recommendation, but it is what I do.
In short, the subject of MMO, how much to use, when to use it, and whether
it is even any good in the first place.... is something that has been a hot
topic on this list server for quite a number of years. In no way would I dare
to recommend a certain amount, or even claim that the stuff really works!
I use it because it does not seem to hurt anything, and APPEARS to have helped
me regarding valve leading issues.
Mark
________________________________
From: Javier Carrasco
Sent: Wed 10/6/2010 8:57 PM
To: Mark Sorenson; yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
Hi Mark!
Hope you are doing great!
Hey I got the Spakplug kit from Dennis Savarece and the difference is just unbelievable!
Hey are you using the Marvel Mystery Oil?
If so in what proportion?
And do you add it everytime you put gas? or how often?
Regards, Javier
--- On Sun, 3/14/10, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
To: "Mark Sorenson" <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 7:43 AM
Sorry about the previous misfire with no photo attached.
This was captured yesterday at the TICO Airshow, in Titusville, FL. Other
than having to deal with winds up to 30 mph it was a grrrrrrrrrreat day among
grrrrrrrrrrreat people.
Best regards,
Mark Sorenson
678-GO-FLY-HI
www.tigerairshows.com
________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protGBL/go/210850553/direct/01/">Sign
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Message 14
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Everything I have read says stay away from it. Apparently it can clump
the Teflon =not good,
Frank
Message 15
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| Subject: | MMO vs. Camguard (subject change) |
I fully concur with Monty Barrett that cylinder head temp. is a SERIOUSLY important
factor in the life of these engines.
I have no idea how MMO will react with Swift fuel. Swift fuel does not contain
TEL.
One of the reasons you have avoided valve leading is because you run your engine
so hard, and I have pointed out that fact in the past. Running the engine at
low RPM impacts exhaust gas temperature. It increases your chances of valve
leading issues. The lower the temperature of your cylinder head, the more chance
you have of the TEL coming out of a gaseous state back into a precipitate.
Swift fuel may have the octane, but it will likely not have the lubrication properties
of fuel containing TEL. The Russians have said that their hardened valve
seats combined with their sodium filled valve bodies will be able to handle
this.
I hope they are correct.
If not, it's only money.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of RICHARD VOLKER
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: MMO vs. Camguard (subject change)
OK,
seriously then....
It looks as though there are countless testimonials supporting the helpful properties
of MMO. I respect your opinion regarding its use. It is difficult to
find scientifically supportive documentation of this product on line, piper site
and all. I would be interested in MMO, particularly after reading how Swift
fuel may be coming our way. After the FAA test run of an IO540 engine for 150
hours, some mention was made of slight fuel pump wear or leaking as the only
problem. MMO might be a way to counter this effect. A product like MMO might
be the best thing since sliced bread, but no one stands to make extra money
from the product certification for the tiny aviation market. I realize that CamGuard
is different, but the testing related to its certified use is what I was
referring to.
I have not heard anything bad about its use. I will review the Yak List archives
to read more. Up until now, I have treated my M14P's as though they were
certified engines, thinking resale might be better from the buyer's increased
confidence level in my care. Now, maybe thats not the best course. I have
never had lead deposits in the engines I've used. Piston scuffing and cracked
rings were seen in a past engine. I am counting on rigorous control of CHT's
and CamGuard to improve this behavior in my new engine. Monty Barrett has claimed
that these two things were the bane of the original design.
Thanks for the info
Rick Volker
On Oct 8, 2010, at 4:33 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
wrote:
>
> Well, since you were replying to a message that I wrote when you posted this
Richard, I will assume that you were directing your reply and tongue in cheek
comments to what I wrote.
>
> Let me say again for the record. I do not recommend MMO to anyone for any purpose
in any engine. Many others actually do, and there are numerous articles
supporting it's use for lead reduction, but since this topic has been discussed
"Ad Nauseum" on this list, and since many readers are sick and tired of hearing
the same old song and verse, I am not about to start up that whole tired
argument yet again.
>
> That said, I have seen numerous engines with lead fouling on the valves, and
it has happened to my engine twice. Since I have run MMO, I have not had any
problems with leading on the valves. That is far from a good analysis, nor is
it scientific, and it is not something I am going stand up on a soap box and
argue about.
>
> If you need information about MMO, this is not the forum to get it from (IMHO).
However, to address your question about how CamGuard compares to MMO, the
answer is that they are two totally different products intended for two totally
different purposes at least for the use I was discussing. CamGuard is an additive
supplement formulated to address the complex and interrelated problems
of corrosion, wear, deposits and seal degradation in piston engines. Quote Unquote.
>
> It goes in the oil. I am putting MMO into the FUEL. Kind of different applications,
don't you think?
>
> If you want a sample size of more than "one", maybe you ought to look around on the Internet for more comments on the matter. You can start with this one: http://www.pipercubforum.com/marvel.htm
>
> In the end, regardless of what you feel like kissing Richard, I fully intend
to continue using this product in the engines I operate.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of RICHARD VOLKER
> Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:15 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
>
>
> I need information about MMO. Is there any aviation engine testing available
with this additive? Are aircraft owners that are using this oil actually trusting
anecdotal evidence or it's performance in non-aviation engines? How does
this additive compare to CamGuard? The engine teardown testing by Monte Barrett
and others completely reinforces CamGuard claims, as has many independent, scientifically
performed studies. A sample size of one is statistically useless
in proving anything. Wait a minute, I kiss my Sukhoi after every flight and
it is running better than ever. Anybody else care to try that?
> Rick Volker
>
> On Oct 7, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E wrote:
>
>
> Hello Javier,
>
> Glad to hear you are happy with the ignition upgrade kit from Dennis.
I have been involved with that mod on several aircraft and in each case, the
improvement has been very noticable, especially at idle.
>
> Yes, I do use MMO... but clearly I am no expert in it's use. I am one
of these stupid people that think: "if a little bit is good, then a lot is even
better!". That is not an especially "informed or wise" point of view, but you
asked, so I am admitting it! :-)
>
> My YAK-50 holds about 32 gallons. I put about 1/2 quart or more in for
a full tank. In some cases, I've put as much as a full quart in, but that is
not common and I usually have done that just because I did not want to carry
an open container around in the aircraft so I just poured it all in. Probably
not too smart. CLEARLY this is over the recommended amount... but I really
don't think it has hurt anything since I have been doing it for almost 10 years
now. So, I suppose the answer to your question is to simply run the recommended
amount but if you go a little over ... it doesn't seem to hurt anything.
This is subject to change by someone who knows more than me about the issue!
>
> As for oil.... I use MMO as a kind of "cleaner". When I get ready to change
the oil in my engine, I pour in TWO QUARTS of MMO and then go for a short
flight and run the engine hard. I then come back and immediately drain it all
out. Again, this might not be a great recommendation, but it is what I do.
>
> In short, the subject of MMO, how much to use, when to use it, and whether
it is even any good in the first place.... is something that has been a hot
topic on this list server for quite a number of years. In no way would I dare
to recommend a certain amount, or even claim that the stuff really works!
I use it because it does not seem to hurt anything, and APPEARS to have helped
me regarding valve leading issues.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Javier Carrasco
> Sent: Wed 10/6/2010 8:57 PM
> To: Mark Sorenson; yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
>
>
> Hi Mark!
>
> Hope you are doing great!
>
> Hey I got the Spakplug kit from Dennis Savarece and the difference is just unbelievable!
>
> Hey are you using the Marvel Mystery Oil?
>
> If so in what proportion?
>
> And do you add it everytime you put gas? or how often?
>
> Regards, Javier
> --- On Sun, 3/14/10, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: TITUS at Titusville, FL TICO Airshow
> To: "Mark Sorenson" <captainsorenson@hotmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010, 7:43 AM
>
>
> Sorry about the previous misfire with no photo attached.
>
> This was captured yesterday at the TICO Airshow, in Titusville, FL. Other
than having to deal with winds up to 30 mph it was a grrrrrrrrrreat day among
grrrrrrrrrrreat people.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Mark Sorenson
> 678-GO-FLY-HI
> www.tigerairshows.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protGBL/go/210850553/direct/01/">Sign
up now.
>
>
>
>
> et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> p://forums.matronics.com/
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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