Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:09 AM - Just Three Days Left & Some Very Nice Comments... (Matt Dralle)
1. 01:47 AM - Re: Romania (Richard Goode)
2. 04:06 AM - Re: Romania (Cpayne)
3. 04:40 AM - Re: Re: Romania (cjpilot710@aol.com)
4. 07:25 AM - Re: Romania (Roger Kemp M.D.)
5. 08:01 AM - Re: Romania (George Coy)
6. 12:24 PM - Re: Re: Romania (John Cox)
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| Subject: | Just Three Days Left & Some Very Nice Comments... |
Dear Listers,
There are just three days left in this year's List Fund Raiser. Won't you take
a monment and make a quick Contribution today to support the continued upgrade
and operation of these Forum services.
I've received some more really nice comments from Listers along with their List
Support Contributions, and I've share a few below.
There are some sweet gifts available this year, so browse the selections and pickup
a nice item along with your qualifying Contribution.
Contribution Web Site:
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Or drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
USA
Thank you in advance for your generous support! It is very much appreciated!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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Message 1
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What would it cost to build a NEW 52 by a major US manufacturer-I'm sure
a great deal more than $400k.!!!
It is a complex plane to make;Romania joined Europe,so their wages have
risen dramaticly;quantities are much smaller than in the past,so less
economy of scale etc.
Finally governments will never hunt around to buy cheap planes from the
civilian market,however little money they might have.
The real point is that we have been very forntunate to live in a window
of time in which fine aircraft were able to be bought at incredibly low
prices-we should be VERY grateful!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Baker
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Gee, fellows....what are we not understanding about the meaning of the
word "new"? Do you have any idea what a "new" Cirrus SR-22 costs? Are
we forgetting that virtually all of the Yak 52's and 50's of which we
all are so fond were bought at scrap prices out of a system that was
essentially in collapse? There is no rational ground for a comparison
of the cost of those airplanes and new examples of the same kind of
airplane.
Roger________________________________________________________
On Nov 27, 2010, at 9:05 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Gee I agree. Maybe they have the same kind of politicians as us.
Somebody must be getting a kick back.
Hell at those prices, a CJ-6a would go for 1 million? I just might
give up mine for that. (Oh dear, I might have started something - - -
- - again) ;-)
Pappy
-----Original Message-----
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 27, 2010 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Richard.
I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52,
when used ones in this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount.
What makes a new YAK-52 worth 10 times more than a used one?
I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price.
I love YAKS, and respect the name and product just as much as the next
person, but this is over the top.
Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once
by the way), then present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the
asking price for their aircraft. RIGHT?
I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Richard Goode
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Romania
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who
have manufactured all Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul
the M14P engine. Some issues that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but
they have just delivered ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam ' price justover US
$400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their
estimates are as follows:
=D8 USA 322.
=D8 UK 105.
=D8 Germany 55.
=D8 Spain 20.
=D8 Italy 15.
=D8 France 15.
=D8 Sweden 5.
=D8 Holland / Begium 6.
=D8 Australia / New Zealand 25.
=D8 South Africa 15.
=D8 Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
=D8 Romania 18.
=D8 Hungary 11.
=D8 Vietnam 31.
=D8 In addition there are other military operators in
Ukraine; Georgia; Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
=D8 They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in
Russia, and a similar number existing but not flyable.
=D8 Total production is 1,815 to date.
=D8 Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style
TOTAL overhaul ' that is a strip down to every last component and then
built to a new aircraft. Current price for this is a bit over US
$200,000. (I saw two Romanian Air Force Yak-52s undergoing this
process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening
Bulletins (59/60/107) on Yak-52 were issued because of cracks being seen
in aircraft, rather than actual failures, but it is worth noting that
there were actually two fatal accidents of Yak-52 involving total
airframe failure (actually the centre section between the wings), which
led to the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your 52 does not
have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to
put into their new version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have
gone to Romania for these engines ' I had assumed that the Chinese had
all the production that they needed. Also I have seen in these
listings, people referring to a 400hp version of the Chinese engine '
does such a thing exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as
overhaul old ones. It would seem that they have good supplies of most
components but it is feared that there are likely to be shortages in the
long-term ' for example exhaust valves. My personal feeling is that
no new parts are being made in Russia and current stocks are simply
being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
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Roger E. Baker, Managing Director
Panadero Energy Components, LLC
dba PEC AirAssist
760/809-5506
760/730-9244
760/454-4595 fax
f4ffm2@roadrunner.com
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Some current prices:
New Cessna Skylane - $390,300, that includes Garmin GFC 700 suite which is standard
on all Cessna singles except for the Skycatcher.
Piper Archer III - $299,500 with standard Avidyne suite
New Yak-52 - $400,000 Fleet sale price, with spares I assume.
Hal Morely's CJ-6 - "Comparable" to the above.
Craig Payne
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Richard, Roger, and Payne make a good point. And when you realize a Ext
ra goes for more than $300k, perhaps that $400k for a Y-52 looks a little
more "reasonable" although that does seem a little high. And just a few
days ago, I talked with a guy who sold his award winning Aerocoup for $45
,000 ( a pre war model). Of course I am a guy who remembers when Cubs, Lu
scombe, and Aerocoups, sold for $2,500 and that guys seem like only yester
day. I guess time (and prices) march on.
BTW I flew a SeaRay yesterday. 10 T/L on Lake Crescent. It handle really
nice, good control harmony and plenty of power. I don't think I'd loop
it though. New ones with every thing is around $125K.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: Cpayne <cpayne@joimail.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:04 am
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Romania
Some current prices:
New Cessna Skylane - $390,300, that includes Garmin GFC 700 suite which is
tandard on all Cessna singles except for the Skycatcher.
Piper Archer III - $299,500 with standard Avidyne suite
New Yak-52 - $400,000 Fleet sale price, with spares I assume.
Hal Morely's CJ-6 - "Comparable" to the above.
Craig Payne
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Message 4
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Agreed.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
What would it cost to build a NEW 52 by a major US manufacturer-I'm sure
a
great deal more than $400k.!!!
It is a complex plane to make;Romania joined Europe,so their wages have
risen dramaticly;quantities are much smaller than in the past,so less
economy of scale etc.
Finally governments will never hunt around to buy cheap planes from the
civilian market,however little money they might have.
The real point is that we have been very forntunate to live in a window
of
time in which fine aircraft were able to be bought at incredibly low
prices-we should be VERY grateful!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Baker <mailto:f4ffm2@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Gee, fellows....what are we not understanding about the meaning of the
word
"new"? Do you have any idea what a "new" Cirrus SR-22 costs? Are we
forgetting that virtually all of the Yak 52's and 50's of which we all
are
so fond were bought at scrap prices out of a system that was essentially
in
collapse? There is no rational ground for a comparison of the cost of
those
airplanes and new examples of the same kind of airplane.
Roger________________________________________________________
On Nov 27, 2010, at 9:05 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Gee I agree. Maybe they have the same kind of politicians as us.
Somebody
must be getting a kick back.
Hell at those prices, a CJ-6a would go for 1 million? I just might give
up
mine for that. (Oh dear, I might have started something - - - - -
again)
;-)
Pappy
-----Original Message-----
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 27, 2010 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Richard.
I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52, when used
ones
in this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount. What makes a new
YAK-52 worth 10 times more than a used one?
I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price. I love
YAKS,
and respect the name and product just as much as the next person, but
this
is over the top.
Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once by the
way),
then present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the asking price
for
their aircraft. RIGHT?
I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Romania
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have
manufactured
all Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine.
Some
issues that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just
delivered ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam ' price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as
follows:
=D8 USA 322.
=D8 UK 105.
=D8 Germany 55.
=D8 Spain 20.
=D8 Italy 15.
=D8 France 15.
=D8 Sweden 5.
=D8 Holland / Begium 6.
=D8 Australia / New Zealand 25.
=D8 South Africa 15.
=D8 Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
=D8 Romania 18.
=D8 Hungary 11.
=D8 Vietnam 31.
=D8 In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia;
Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
=D8 They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a
similar
number existing but not flyable.
=D8 Total production is 1,815 to date.
=D8 Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL
overhaul '
that is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new
aircraft. Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw
two
Romanian Air Force Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins
(59/60/107) on
Yak-52 were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than
actual failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two
fatal
accidents of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the
centre
section between the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60
Bulletins. So if your 52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into
their
new version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to
Romania
for these engines ' I had assumed that the Chinese had all the
production
that they needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people referring
to a
400hp version of the Chinese engine ' does such a thing exist? Have
many
been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old
ones.
It would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is
feared that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term ' for
example
exhaust valves. My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made
in
Russia and current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
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Roger E. Baker, Managing Director
Panadero Energy Components, LLC
dba PEC AirAssist
760/809-5506
760/730-9244
760/454-4595 fax
f4ffm2@roadrunner.com
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I notice all the chatter about the $400,000 price of the new Yak-52. The
main point is that they are still in production, although very limited
production. That is the good news here.
I would point out that the Vietnam Yak-52 is the original Russian airplane
with all the original Russian equipment including mechanical data recorders,
Russian ADF, all Russian gages and systems. I am actually amazed that they
can make the airplane for that low a price.
I bought 10 new stock Russian Yak-52 back in 1996 and imported
them to the U.S. When I went to buy more in 1998, the price had tripled
mainly due to the cost of the Russian equipment. This was the deciding
factor in developing the Yak-52W. The "W" version used western radios,
instruments and electrical components. This knocked almost $40,000 off the
cost in1998. We carried this concept through when we developed the 52TW.
I have met with the "Generals" in Vietnam in 2009 about the
Yak-52. They want the original Yaks without any modifications. They
understand that there are much better and more modern ways to build the
airplane at considerable less cost, but their political system does not
permit much innovation. The younger aids were excited to see some
modernization to the aircraft, but the older high ranking people were afraid
of any changes. There are also a lot of pockets that get filled along the
way when they buy airplanes.
George Coy
CAS Ltd.
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
http://coyafct.com/
SKYPE george.coy
Message 6
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Hal's exceeds all three in capability and class. Besides its not a
certificated production unit but more like a one of a kind work of art.
John Cox
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Cpayne
Sent: Sun 11/28/2010 4:04 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Romania
Some current prices:
New Cessna Skylane - $390,300, that includes Garmin GFC 700 suite which
is standard on all Cessna singles except for the Skycatcher.
Piper Archer III - $299,500 with standard Avidyne suite
New Yak-52 - $400,000 Fleet sale price, with spares I assume.
Hal Morely's CJ-6 - "Comparable" to the above.
Craig Payne
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