Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:25 AM - Make Sure You're Listed! (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:51 AM - Romania (George Coy)
2. 06:55 AM - Re: Romania (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
3. 06:55 AM - Re: Romania (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 06:56 AM - Re: Romania (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
5. 07:04 AM - Re: Romania (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
6. 07:54 AM - Re: Romania (Richard Goode)
7. 08:45 AM - Re: Romania (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
8. 08:45 AM - Re: Romania (Roger Kemp M.D.)
9. 01:08 PM - Annual RPA Formation Proficiency Report (Byron Fox)
10. 09:28 PM - Aircraf Containerization & Shipping - Australia (andrew richards)
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| Subject: | Make Sure You're Listed! |
Dear Listers,
The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner with just two more days
in this year's Fund Raiser! Later in December I will post a list of everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists this year. Its
my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others
that you appreciate the Lists.
Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard,
or Paypal account:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that
keeps these Lists running and improving!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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I notice all the chatter about the $400,000 price of the new Yak-52. The
main point is that they are still in production, although very limited
production. That is the good news here.
I would point out that the Vietnam Yak-52 is the original Russian airplane
with all the original Russian equipment including mechanical data recorders,
Russian ADF, all Russian gages and systems. I am actually amazed that they
can make the airplane for that low a price.
I bought 10 new stock Russian Yak-52 back in 1996 and imported
them to the U.S. When I went to buy more in 1998, the price had tripled
mainly due to the cost of the Russian equipment. This was the deciding
factor in developing the Yak-52W. The "W" version used western radios,
instruments and electrical components. This knocked almost $40,000 off the
cost in1998. We carried this concept through when we developed the 52TW.
I have met with the "Generals" in Vietnam in 2009 about the
Yak-52. They want the original Yaks without any modifications. They
understand that there are much better and more modern ways to build the
airplane at considerable less cost, but their political system does not
permit much innovation. The younger aids were excited to see some
modernization to the aircraft, but the older high ranking people were afraid
of any changes. There are also a lot of pockets that get filled along the
way when they buy airplanes.
George Coy
CAS Ltd.
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
http://coyafct.com/
SKYPE george.coy
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Good answer.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Halverson
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Communist solidarity?
+-----Original Message-----
+From: Yak Pilot [mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com]
+Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 05:01 PM
+To: yak-list@matronics.com
+Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
+
+Richard.
+
+I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52, when used ones in
this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount. What makes a new YAK-52
worth 10 times more than a used one?
+
+I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price. I love YAKS, and
respect the name and product just as much as the next person, but this is over
the top.
+
+Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once by the way), then
present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the asking price for their aircraft.
RIGHT?
+
+I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
+
+Mark Bitterlich
+
+p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
+
+
Message 3
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Are we talking "Yen", "Dong", or "Pesos" here?
:-)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Gee I agree. Maybe they have the same kind of politicians as us. Somebody must
be getting a kick back.
Hell at those prices, a CJ-6a would go for 1 million? I just might give up mine
for that. (Oh dear, I might have started something - - - - - again) ;-)
Pappy
-----Original Message-----
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 27, 2010 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Richard.
I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52, when used ones in
this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount. What makes a new YAK-52
worth 10 times more than a used one?
I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price. I love YAKS, and
respect the name and product just as much as the next person, but this is over
the top.
Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once by the way), then
present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the asking price for their aircraft.
RIGHT?
I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Romania
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have manufactured all
Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine. Some issues
that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just delivered
ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as follows:
USA 322.
UK 105.
Germany 55.
Spain 20.
Italy 15.
France 15.
Sweden 5.
Holland / Begium 6.
Australia / New Zealand 25.
South Africa 15.
Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
Romania 18.
Hungary 11.
Vietnam 31.
In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia; Uzbekistan
and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a similar number
existing but not flyable.
Total production is 1,815 to date.
Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL overhaul that
is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new aircraft.
Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw two Romanian Air Force
Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins (59/60/107) on Yak-52
were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than actual
failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two fatal accidents
of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the centre section between
the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your
52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into their new
version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to Romania for these
engines I had assumed that the Chinese had all the production that they needed.
Also I have seen in these listings, people referring to a 400hp version
of the Chinese engine does such a thing exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old ones. It
would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is feared
that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term for example exhaust valves.
My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made in Russia and current
stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
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Message 4
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Ok, well then ask Richard Goode what some of the last BRAND NEW Sukhoi's were going
for. Ask anyone in the world which they would prefer... a YAK-52 or a Sukhoi-29?
But it's a really moot point. (Suke's still command a very high price
by the way... and one of them BRAND NEW today might indeed be worth $400,000)
The value of anything on the planet is based on what people are willing to pay
for it. If Vietnam is willing to $400,000 for a brand new YAK-52, more power
to them. A that price, I am sure they would be willing to pay $100,000 for used
YAK-52's just for the spare parts. I wonder if that might actually happen?
Roger, not bashing your point... because your point is very valid. A totally new
airplane costs more than a used one purchased at "Fire Sale" prices. However,
it's just the amount.... 400 grand. 400-500 grand will buy the very best
of the very new, of the most modern aerobatic places out there using space age
technology, with engines that are still being made and supported 100% by the
factory. The YAK-52 ... great airplane that it is, falls far short of that description.
Mark
p.s. Not debating. Really does not matter to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Baker
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Gee, fellows....what are we not understanding about the meaning of the word "new"?
Do you have any idea what a "new" Cirrus SR-22 costs? Are we forgetting
that virtually all of the Yak 52's and 50's of which we all are so fond were bought
at scrap prices out of a system that was essentially in collapse? There
is no rational ground for a comparison of the cost of those airplanes and new
examples of the same kind of airplane.
Roger________________________________________________________
On Nov 27, 2010, at 9:05 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Gee I agree. Maybe they have the same kind of politicians as us. Somebody must
be getting a kick back.
Hell at those prices, a CJ-6a would go for 1 million? I just might give up mine
for that. (Oh dear, I might have started something - - - - - again) ;-)
Pappy
-----Original Message-----
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 27, 2010 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Richard.
I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52, when used ones in
this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount. What makes a new YAK-52
worth 10 times more than a used one?
I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price. I love YAKS, and
respect the name and product just as much as the next person, but this is over
the top.
Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once by the way), then
present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the asking price for their aircraft.
RIGHT?
I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Romania
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have manufactured all
Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine. Some issues
that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just delivered
ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam - price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as follows:
USA 322.
UK 105.
Germany 55.
Spain 20.
Italy 15.
France 15.
Sweden 5.
Holland / Begium 6.
Australia / New Zealand 25.
South Africa 15.
Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
Romania 18.
Hungary 11.
Vietnam 31.
In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia; Uzbekistan
and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a similar number
existing but not flyable.
Total production is 1,815 to date.
Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL overhaul - that
is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new aircraft.
Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw two Romanian Air Force
Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins (59/60/107) on Yak-52
were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than actual
failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two fatal accidents
of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the centre section between
the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your
52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into their new
version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to Romania for these
engines - I had assumed that the Chinese had all the production that they
needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people referring to a 400hp version
of the Chinese engine - does such a thing exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old ones. It
would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is feared
that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term - for example exhaust valves.
My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made in Russia and
current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
m/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
Roger E. Baker, Managing Director
Panadero Energy Components, LLC
dba PEC AirAssist
760/809-5506
760/730-9244
760/454-4595 fax
f4ffm2@roadrunner.com
Message 5
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I am very grateful to have what I do :-)
I am also very grateful that an SNJ-5, or T-6G with a 600 HP Pratt can be had for
about $180,000.
It would be very interesting to see what the U.S. could build YAK-52's for, but
the real question would be, who would want them after they were built... for
400 grand each? What were those YAK-52TW's going for? $150,00 or so?
If these aircraft were destined for the Vietnamese military, then that is a whole
different can of worms. If it was a Government military purchase, then that's
chump change.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 4:44 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
What would it cost to build a NEW 52 by a major US manufacturer-I'm sure a great
deal more than $400k.!!!
It is a complex plane to make;Romania joined Europe,so their wages have risen dramaticly;quantities
are much smaller than in the past,so less economy of scale
etc.
Finally governments will never hunt around to buy cheap planes from the civilian
market,however little money they might have.
The real point is that we have been very forntunate to live in a window of time
in which fine aircraft were able to be bought at incredibly low prices-we should
be VERY grateful!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Baker <mailto:f4ffm2@roadrunner.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Gee, fellows....what are we not understanding about the meaning of the word "new"?
Do you have any idea what a "new" Cirrus SR-22 costs? Are we forgetting
that virtually all of the Yak 52's and 50's of which we all are so fond were
bought at scrap prices out of a system that was essentially in collapse? There
is no rational ground for a comparison of the cost of those airplanes and new
examples of the same kind of airplane.
Roger________________________________________________________
On Nov 27, 2010, at 9:05 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Gee I agree. Maybe they have the same kind of politicians as us. Somebody must
be getting a kick back.
Hell at those prices, a CJ-6a would go for 1 million? I just might give up mine
for that. (Oh dear, I might have started something - - - - - again) ;-)
Pappy
-----Original Message-----
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 27, 2010 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Richard.
I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52, when used ones in
this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount. What makes a new YAK-52
worth 10 times more than a used one?
I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price. I love YAKS, and
respect the name and product just as much as the next person, but this is over
the top.
Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once by the way), then
present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the asking price for their aircraft.
RIGHT?
I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Romania
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have manufactured all
Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine. Some issues
that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just delivered
ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam - price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as follows:
USA 322.
UK 105.
Germany 55.
Spain 20.
Italy 15.
France 15.
Sweden 5.
Holland / Begium 6.
Australia / New Zealand 25.
South Africa 15.
Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
Romania 18.
Hungary 11.
Vietnam 31.
In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia; Uzbekistan
and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a similar number
existing but not flyable.
Total production is 1,815 to date.
Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL overhaul - that
is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new aircraft.
Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw two Romanian Air Force
Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins (59/60/107) on Yak-52
were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than actual
failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two fatal accidents
of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the centre section between
the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your
52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into their new
version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to Romania for these
engines - I had assumed that the Chinese had all the production that they
needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people referring to a 400hp version
of the Chinese engine - does such a thing exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old ones. It
would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is feared
that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term - for example exhaust valves.
My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made in Russia and
current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
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et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
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Roger E. Baker, Managing Director
Panadero Energy Components, LLC
dba PEC AirAssist
760/809-5506
760/730-9244
760/454-4595 fax
f4ffm2@roadrunner.com
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The last 3 new Sukhoi Su-29 were sold at over $500,000 each.
One was to a rich,but low-time pilot, "New Russian" businessman,who said
he did not need any converting to type.
On his first flight he went off the end of the runway at high
speed;demolished the plane [of course no insurance], but he walked
away!!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Romania
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Ok, well then ask Richard Goode what some of the last BRAND NEW
Sukhoi's were going for. Ask anyone in the world which they would
prefer... a YAK-52 or a Sukhoi-29? But it's a really moot point.
(Suke's still command a very high price by the way... and one of them
BRAND NEW today might indeed be worth $400,000)
The value of anything on the planet is based on what people are
willing to pay for it. If Vietnam is willing to $400,000 for a brand
new YAK-52, more power to them. A that price, I am sure they would be
willing to pay $100,000 for used YAK-52's just for the spare parts. I
wonder if that might actually happen?
Roger, not bashing your point... because your point is very valid. A
totally new airplane costs more than a used one purchased at "Fire Sale"
prices. However, it's just the amount.... 400 grand. 400-500 grand
will buy the very best of the very new, of the most modern aerobatic
places out there using space age technology, with engines that are still
being made and supported 100% by the factory. The YAK-52 ... great
airplane that it is, falls far short of that description.
Mark
p.s. Not debating. Really does not matter to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Baker
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 12:32 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Gee, fellows....what are we not understanding about the meaning of the
word "new"? Do you have any idea what a "new" Cirrus SR-22 costs? Are
we forgetting that virtually all of the Yak 52's and 50's of which we
all are so fond were bought at scrap prices out of a system that was
essentially in collapse? There is no rational ground for a comparison
of the cost of those airplanes and new examples of the same kind of
airplane.
Roger________________________________________________________
On Nov 27, 2010, at 9:05 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Gee I agree. Maybe they have the same kind of politicians as us.
Somebody must be getting a kick back.
Hell at those prices, a CJ-6a would go for 1 million? I just might
give up mine for that. (Oh dear, I might have started something - - -
- - again) ;-)
Pappy
-----Original Message-----
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 27, 2010 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Richard.
I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52, when
used ones in this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount. What
makes a new YAK-52 worth 10 times more than a used one?
I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price. I love
YAKS, and respect the name and product just as much as the next person,
but this is over the top.
Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once by the
way), then present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the asking
price for their aircraft. RIGHT?
I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Romania
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have
manufactured all Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the
M14P engine. Some issues that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have
just delivered ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam - price justover US $400,000
each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are
as follows:
=D8 USA 322.
=D8 UK 105.
=D8 Germany 55.
=D8 Spain 20.
=D8 Italy 15.
=D8 France 15.
=D8 Sweden 5.
=D8 Holland / Begium 6.
=D8 Australia / New Zealand 25.
=D8 South Africa 15.
=D8 Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
=D8 Romania 18.
=D8 Hungary 11.
=D8 Vietnam 31.
=D8 In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine;
Georgia; Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
=D8 They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a
similar number existing but not flyable.
=D8 Total production is 1,815 to date.
=D8 Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL
overhaul - that is a strip down to every last component and then built
to a new aircraft. Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000.
(I saw two Romanian Air Force Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins
(59/60/107) on Yak-52 were issued because of cracks being seen in
aircraft, rather than actual failures, but it is worth noting that there
were actually two fatal accidents of Yak-52 involving total airframe
failure (actually the centre section between the wings), which led to
the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your 52 does not have 59
and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into
their new version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to
Romania for these engines - I had assumed that the Chinese had all the
production that they needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people
referring to a 400hp version of the Chinese engine - does such a thing
exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old
ones. It would seem that they have good supplies of most components but
it is feared that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term -
for example exhaust valves. My personal feeling is that no new parts
are being made in Russia and current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=nofollow
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tp://forums.matronics.com
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ontribution
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Roger E. Baker, Managing Director
Panadero Energy Components, LLC
dba PEC AirAssist
760/809-5506
760/730-9244
760/454-4595 fax
f4ffm2@roadrunner.com
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Sad story.
To those that might not know it, some of those Suke's had TITANIUM landing gear
legs. The gear legs alone on a Suke are worth a ton of money. I believe 1/2
mil for one of the best two seat aerobatic aircraft in the world is within the
bounds of reality. Anyway.... the question was answered when you mentioned
it was a military buy for the 52's. Enough said..... That explains everything.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
The last 3 new Sukhoi Su-29 were sold at over $500,000 each.
One was to a rich,but low-time pilot, "New Russian" businessman,who said he did
not need any converting to type.
On his first flight he went off the end of the runway at high speed;demolished
the plane [of course no insurance], but he walked away!!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Romania
Ok, well then ask Richard Goode what some of the last BRAND NEW Sukhoi's were
going for. Ask anyone in the world which they would prefer... a YAK-52 or a Sukhoi-29?
But it's a really moot point. (Suke's still command a very high price
by the way... and one of them BRAND NEW today might indeed be worth $400,000)
The value of anything on the planet is based on what people are willing to pay
for it. If Vietnam is willing to $400,000 for a brand new YAK-52, more power
to them. A that price, I am sure they would be willing to pay $100,000 for used
YAK-52's just for the spare parts. I wonder if that might actually happen?
Roger, not bashing your point... because your point is very valid. A totally
new airplane costs more than a used one purchased at "Fire Sale" prices. However,
it's just the amount.... 400 grand. 400-500 grand will buy the very best
of the very new, of the most modern aerobatic places out there using space age
technology, with engines that are still being made and supported 100% by the
factory. The YAK-52 ... great airplane that it is, falls far short of that description.
Mark
p.s. Not debating. Really does not matter to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Baker
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 12:32 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Gee, fellows....what are we not understanding about the meaning of the word "new"?
Do you have any idea what a "new" Cirrus SR-22 costs? Are we forgetting
that virtually all of the Yak 52's and 50's of which we all are so fond were
bought at scrap prices out of a system that was essentially in collapse? There
is no rational ground for a comparison of the cost of those airplanes and new
examples of the same kind of airplane.
Roger________________________________________________________
On Nov 27, 2010, at 9:05 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Gee I agree. Maybe they have the same kind of politicians as us. Somebody must
be getting a kick back.
Hell at those prices, a CJ-6a would go for 1 million? I just might give up mine
for that. (Oh dear, I might have started something - - - - - again) ;-)
Pappy
-----Original Message-----
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 27, 2010 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Richard.
I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52, when used ones in
this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount. What makes a new YAK-52
worth 10 times more than a used one?
I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price. I love YAKS, and
respect the name and product just as much as the next person, but this is over
the top.
Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once by the way), then
present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the asking price for their aircraft.
RIGHT?
I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Romania
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 10:33 AM
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have manufactured all
Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine. Some issues
that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just delivered
ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam - price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as follows:
USA 322.
UK 105.
Germany 55.
Spain 20.
Italy 15.
France 15.
Sweden 5.
Holland / Begium 6.
Australia / New Zealand 25.
South Africa 15.
Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
Romania 18.
Hungary 11.
Vietnam 31.
In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia; Uzbekistan
and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a similar number
existing but not flyable.
Total production is 1,815 to date.
Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL overhaul - that
is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new aircraft.
Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw two Romanian Air Force
Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins (59/60/107) on Yak-52
were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than actual
failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two fatal accidents
of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the centre section between
the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60 Bulletins. So if your
52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into their new
version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to Romania for these
engines - I had assumed that the Chinese had all the production that they
needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people referring to a 400hp version
of the Chinese engine - does such a thing exist? Have many been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old ones. It
would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is feared
that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term - for example exhaust valves.
My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made in Russia and
current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
m/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
Roger E. Baker, Managing Director
Panadero Energy Components, LLC
dba PEC AirAssist
760/809-5506
760/730-9244
760/454-4595 fax
f4ffm2@roadrunner.com
Message 8
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=93A fool and his money shall soon be separated=94.
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
The last 3 new Sukhoi Su-29 were sold at over $500,000 each.
One was to a rich,but low-time pilot, "New Russian" businessman,who said
he
did not need any converting to type.
On his first flight he went off the end of the runway at high
speed;demolished the plane [of course no insurance], but he walked
away!!
Richard
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mailto:mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Romania
Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Ok, well then ask Richard Goode what some of the last BRAND NEW Sukhoi's
were going for. Ask anyone in the world which they would prefer... a
YAK-52
or a Sukhoi-29? But it's a really moot point. (Suke's still command a
very
high price by the way... and one of them BRAND NEW today might indeed be
worth $400,000)
The value of anything on the planet is based on what people are willing
to
pay for it. If Vietnam is willing to $400,000 for a brand new YAK-52,
more
power to them. A that price, I am sure they would be willing to pay
$100,000 for used YAK-52's just for the spare parts. I wonder if that
might
actually happen?
Roger, not bashing your point... because your point is very valid. A
totally new airplane costs more than a used one purchased at "Fire Sale"
prices. However, it's just the amount.... 400 grand. 400-500 grand
will
buy the very best of the very new, of the most modern aerobatic places
out
there using space age technology, with engines that are still being made
and
supported 100% by the factory. The YAK-52 ... great airplane that it
is,
falls far short of that description.
Mark
p.s. Not debating. Really does not matter to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Baker
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Gee, fellows....what are we not understanding about the meaning of the
word
"new"? Do you have any idea what a "new" Cirrus SR-22 costs? Are we
forgetting that virtually all of the Yak 52's and 50's of which we all
are
so fond were bought at scrap prices out of a system that was essentially
in
collapse? There is no rational ground for a comparison of the cost of
those
airplanes and new examples of the same kind of airplane.
Roger________________________________________________________
On Nov 27, 2010, at 9:05 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Gee I agree. Maybe they have the same kind of politicians as us.
Somebody
must be getting a kick back.
Hell at those prices, a CJ-6a would go for 1 million? I just might give
up
mine for that. (Oh dear, I might have started something - - - - -
again)
;-)
Pappy
-----Original Message-----
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 27, 2010 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Romania
Richard.
I am curious why Vietnam would pay $400,000 for a new YAK-52, when used
ones
in this country are selling for 1/10th of that amount. What makes a new
YAK-52 worth 10 times more than a used one?
I'm sorry, but 400 grand for a YAK-52 is a ridiculous price. I love
YAKS,
and respect the name and product just as much as the next person, but
this
is over the top.
Or ... .if I am wrong .... (which I have been more than once by the
way),
then present YAK-52 owners REALLY need to re-consider the asking price
for
their aircraft. RIGHT?
I mean, WTF over? I just don't follow the numbers here.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yes, this message brought me out of the weeds.
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
wrote:
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode@russianaeros.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Romania
I have just returned from Romania, visiting Aerostar, who have
manufactured
all Yak-52, and Motorstar, who manufacture /overhaul the M14P engine.
Some
issues that could be of interest:
Obviously production of Yak-52 has slowed right down, but they have just
delivered ten new Yak-52 to Vietnam - price justover US $400,000 each.
In terms of total numbers of Yak-52 in the world their estimates are as
follows:
=D8 USA 322.
=D8 UK 105.
=D8 Germany 55.
=D8 Spain 20.
=D8 Italy 15.
=D8 France 15.
=D8 Sweden 5.
=D8 Holland / Begium 6.
=D8 Australia / New Zealand 25.
=D8 South Africa 15.
=D8 Others circa 25.
Total 608
In addition military operators are as follows:
=D8 Romania 18.
=D8 Hungary 11.
=D8 Vietnam 31.
=D8 In addition there are other military operators in Ukraine; Georgia;
Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan etc.
Russia:
=D8 They estimate that there are about 350 flyable in Russia, and a
similar
number existing but not flyable.
=D8 Total production is 1,815 to date.
=D8 Of these the first 60 were flush-riveted.
For military users, Aerostar still offers a military style TOTAL
overhaul -
that is a strip down to every last component and then built to a new
aircraft. Current price for this is a bit over US $200,000. (I saw
two
Romanian Air Force Yak-52s undergoing this process).
I had thought that the major airframe strengthening Bulletins
(59/60/107) on
Yak-52 were issued because of cracks being seen in aircraft, rather than
actual failures, but it is worth noting that there were actually two
fatal
accidents of Yak-52 involving total airframe failure (actually the
centre
section between the wings), which led to the introduction of 59 and 60
Bulletins. So if your 52 does not have 59 and 60 - fly gently!
Motorstar has just delivered five engines to the Chinese, to put into
their
new version of the CJ6. It is interesting that they have gone to
Romania
for these engines - I had assumed that the Chinese had all the
production
that they needed. Also I have seen in these listings, people referring
to a
400hp version of the Chinese engine - does such a thing exist? Have
many
been made?
Motorstar continue to make a few new engines, as well as overhaul old
ones.
It would seem that they have good supplies of most components but it is
feared that there are likely to be shortages in the long-term - for
example
exhaust valves. My personal feeling is that no new parts are being made
in
Russia and current stocks are simply being eroded.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Herefordshire
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com/>
ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
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Roger E. Baker, Managing Director
Panadero Energy Components, LLC
dba PEC AirAssist
760/809-5506
760/730-9244
760/454-4595 fax
f4ffm2@roadrunner.com
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Dralle,
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Annual RPA Formation Proficiency Report |
If you have not already done so, now is the time to send your FPR to Mark
Weidhaas so that your FAST rating will be current for 2011. New cards will
go out in January. The report form and Mark's fax number can be found on the
RPA's web site under the Formation tab. Also, it's a good time to renew your
RPA membership.
...Blitz
Byron M. Fox
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941
415-307-2405
Message 10
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| Subject: | Aircraf Containerization & Shipping - Australia |
Afternoon
I am looking to export a Yak 55M and Skybolt to Australia, both aircraft
will be ready next week. Looking for someone to pack both into a 40'
container and arrange shipping to the port of Sydney, Australia. Kind of
need them packed and shipped quickly. One aircraft in in Monroe City, the
other near NY so looking for somewhere on the east coast.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Andrew
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