---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/19/11: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:05 AM - Re: GT blades for V-530 (Chris Wise) 2. 01:40 AM - GT Propellors (Richard.Goode) 3. 02:45 AM - Re: GT Propellors (Olivier Vigneron) 4. 02:57 AM - Re: GT Propellors (Eric Wobschall) 5. 02:58 AM - Re: GT Propellors (Eric Wobschall) 6. 05:05 AM - Re: M-14P engine Heating (A. Dennis Savarese) 7. 06:04 AM - V-530C, W530 and V530 prop blades (Jill Gernetzke) 8. 06:29 AM - Re: V-530C, W530 and V530 prop blades (Roger Kemp M.D.) 9. 07:09 AM - Re: GT Propellors (Roger Kemp M.D.) 10. 07:14 AM - Re: Cold weather oil woes (William Halverson) 11. 07:38 AM - Re: GT Propellors (A. Dennis Savarese) 12. 08:21 AM - Percent RPM to Rpm help (N642K) 13. 08:35 AM - Re: GT Propellors (Eric Wobschall) 14. 08:55 AM - Re: Percent RPM to Rpm help (A. Dennis Savarese) 15. 09:04 AM - Re: Percent RPM to Rpm help (N642K) 16. 09:27 AM - Re: Re: Percent RPM to Rpm help (A. Dennis Savarese) 17. 12:09 PM - Re: GT Propellors (Chris Wise) 18. 12:48 PM - Re: GT Propellors (rick@rvairshows.com) 19. 04:00 PM - Re: Cold weather oil woes (keithmckinley) 20. 05:05 PM - Re:Re: GT Propellors (Cpayne) 21. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: Cold weather oil woes (Walter Lannon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:01 AM PST US From: "Chris Wise" Subject: RE: Yak-List: GT blades for V-530 G'Day All, I have been following the blog re the Whirlwind blades and note the email from Eric re the GT Blades. Please find the attached photo of my 18T at a Air Show performance. Since fitting the GT blades, we have a shorter take off distance, a better climb and cruise performance and as per Chris Sperou states, who is a Air Display pilot of note in Australia and is cleared for aerobatics to 0 feet, and has flown this aircraft with the old V-530 at Air Displays and states that without a doubt, the performance with the GT blades Is a huge improvement. Chris is of the opinion that it "hangs in" during the manoeuvres far better than the V-530 Blades. I have recently done a 2300nm round trip up north and I had absolutely no bother getting in and out of short strips with full tanks, 3 people and baggage. I know of a Culp Special in Perth, Australia, that the owner has recently fitted GT blades to the M14P and he clearly states that he has a better performance and far less propeller turbulence from the propeller vortex around the cockpit area. So for my 2 bob I would have to say that what we are talking about with regard to both props, is that they are both of a superior design and both would offer a higher performance. Here in Australia, the GT blades have proved to be superior in performance on Yak 52, 18 and Yak 55 than the old V-530 blades. All round. In fact, the GT blades fitted to the Australian manufactured Jabiru gives a all round better performance than the original Jab blades. This also applies to the rotax engine powered aircfat. Cheers from Downsouth. Chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Wobschall Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2011 11:26 AM Subject: Yak-List: GT blades for V-530 As long as we're talking about propeller options, I think we're overlooking the GT blades for the V-530, which have been in use for several years on dozens of airplanes. The Aerostar factory furnishes them on new Yak-52s as an option (I think they said there was a recent order of 20). We have tested them on the Sukhoi SU-26M and Yak-52 with great results. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:59 AM PST US From: "Richard.Goode" Subject: Yak-List: GT Propellors >From everything I have heard I suspect that the GT blades do give a good advantage over the V-530 blades.But then the V-530 is a 50+ year old design,so a new blade really SHOULD perform a lot better! But when is someone going to produce proper scientific performance figures comparing these different props,including MT,rather than saying that"acceleration is much better",or similar subjective assesments?? Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Hereford HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 www.russianaeros.com I=92m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: GT Propellors From: Olivier Vigneron I found something not so good about the GT Prop: http://gtpropellers.com/ Of course a problem is always a possibility but the AAIB's conclusions are very bad: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/september_2009/speedtwin_st2_ _g_stdl.cfm Olivier 2011/1/19 Richard.Goode > From everything I have heard I suspect that the GT blades do give a good > advantage over the V-530 blades.But then the V-530 is a 50+ year old > design,so a new blade really SHOULD perform a lot better! > But when is someone going to produce proper scientific performance figure s > comparing these different props,including MT,rather than saying > that"acceleration is much better",or similar subjective assesments?? > Richard Goode Aerobatics > Rhodds Farm > Lyonshall > Hereford > HR5 3LW > United Kingdom > > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 > Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 > www.russianaeros.com > I=92m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is > +94 779 132 160. > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:04 AM PST US From: Eric Wobschall Subject: Re: Yak-List: GT Propellors That isn't this model of GT propeller, and I have never known GT to be anything less than responsive. This is not some company that just popped up overnight, and they make propellers for a pretty large range of aircraft including historic warbirds like Spitfires. As you know, anything can be put on the internet. On Jan 19, 2011, at 5:42 AM, Olivier Vigneron wrote: > I found something not so good about the GT Prop: http://gtpropellers.com/ > > Of course a problem is always a possibility but the AAIB's conclusions are very bad: > http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/september_2009/speedtwin_st2 __g_stdl.cfm > > Olivier > > 2011/1/19 Richard.Goode > =46rom everything I have heard I suspect that the GT blades do give a good advantage over the V-530 blades.But then the V-530 is a 50+ year old design,so a new blade really SHOULD perform a lot better! > But when is someone going to produce proper scientific performance figures comparing these different props,including MT,rather than saying that"acceleration is much better",or similar subjective assesments?? > Richard Goode Aerobatics > Rhodds Farm > Lyonshall > Hereford > HR5 3LW > United Kingdom > > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 > Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 > www.russianaeros.com > I=92m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160. > > > > > et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:50 AM PST US From: Eric Wobschall Subject: Re: Yak-List: GT Propellors Richard: I did find this data from Rick Volker, which I realize is anecdotal, but I think still useful and coming from someone who knows what he's doing: > Max level speed: mtv3=gt= v530=330kph > Mtv9 slower by 10 kph > Max cruise: mtv3=gt=v530=305kph > Mtv9 slower by 8 kph > Full power stall speed: V530=65 mph,mtv3=60 kph > Gt=50kph , MTV 9= < 50 kph(hovering possible)-below measurable airspeed > Vertical penetration from 6G pull,330kph: > V530=1600', mtv3=1700', GT=1700',Mtv9 00' > Time on vertical line: v530=17 second. Mtv3 second. GT seconds.MTV 9= >30 second (hovering). > Time to climb 1000' to 2000': v530 second. > GT= 20 second., mtv3=17 second, mtv9=17 seconds. > Level acceleration full power, 200kph to 300kph: > V530= 17sec. GT= 17sec. Mtv3=15 sec.mtv9=16 second. > Descent rate at idle with prop at 100%rpm: > Mtv9 =15 sec/1000',GT=32sec/1000',v530=35sec/1000',mtv3= 40sec/1000' > Note: the MTV 9 has longer blades and was optimized for static thrust. It stays much flatter power off, is significantly slower in speed, but will hover this weight aircraft. > The GT has more static thrust than the MTV3 and more thrust from 0 to 120kph. It loses to the mtv3 at 170kph Vy climb and at 200-300kph acceleration, but has same top speed and cruise speed. The GT power off descent rate is high, suggesting the blades stay very flat at power off . > The GT was only static balanced and was much lower vibration than the v530 which had been dynamic balanced. The MTV3 and MTV9 had been dynamic balanced and were by far the smoothest props. It would be conceivable that the GT would be smoother if dynamic balanced. The GT may need a spinner with backing plate to allow dynamic balancing to the same level as a three blade prop. GT is developing a carbon fiber spinner that is 46 cm wide for the V530 hub. > Vertical penetration and time on vertical line upwards were equal with mtv3 vs GT. > =46rom these tests, the GT is as good as the mtv3-250 three blade prop during aerobatics and may be as good an all around prop for aerobatics, travel, and short field take offs. The mtv9-260-29 has been optimized for aerobatics and air shows at the expense of slower cruise, max speed, and poor glide characteristics. It would be advisable to test the GT against the MTV9-250 with both the-27 and -29 blades. > The GT is superior to the v530 in static thrust, vertical penetration, power on stall, and vibration. It is equal in climb, midspeed acceration,cruise,and top speed. The GT has a slightly worse power off glide than the v530. There is also more propeller braking with the GT than with the V530 on roll out after landing. On Jan 19, 2011, at 4:43 AM, Richard.Goode wrote: > =46rom everything I have heard I suspect that the GT blades do give a good advantage over the V-530 blades.But then the V-530 is a 50+ year old design,so a new blade really SHOULD perform a lot better! > But when is someone going to produce proper scientific performance figures comparing these different props,including MT,rather than saying that"acceleration is much better",or similar subjective assesments?? > Richard Goode Aerobatics > Rhodds Farm > Lyonshall > Hereford > HR5 3LW > United Kingdom > > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 > Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 > www.russianaeros.com > I=92m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:06 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: M-14P engine Heating Yes, that's 100% correct Doc. On the Yak's the oil temperature probes are fitted to the canister on the side of the main oil screen. Thus the temperature of the oil coming from the oil tank to the main oil screen is where the oil temperature is read on the instrument. There are 2 temperature probes on the canister. One for each cockpit. On the CJ, it has both an inlet and outlet oil temperature probes with a toggle switch in the cockpit. Flip the toggle one way and you read inlet temperature. Flip the toggle the other way and you read engine outlet oil temperature. Good way to know how well your oil cooler is working. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (cell) Skype: Yakguy1 www.yak-52.com On 1/18/2011 7:28 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp M.D." > >> From the translated IAK-52 Flight Manual P. 24 3.4.3. Engine Heating > 3.4.3.1 The engine is heated at 41-44% engine speed until the oil temperature at engine intake begins to increase. When the oil temperature begins to increase, the speed is accelerated up to 41-48% ( in winter time up to 51%) and maintaining this value of engine speed, the engine is heated until the cylinders heads temperature is 120 deg.C minimum and the oil temperature at the engine intake is 40 deg C minimum. > In wintertime, to hasten the engine heating, the cowl flaps and the oil radiator choke must be closed. > 3.4.3.2 The engine is considered heated when the cylinders heads temperature is 120 deg C minimum and the oil temperature at engine intake is 40 deg C minimum. > So the oil temp is measured at the intake according to the manual. > Doc > Sent from my iPad > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:18 AM PST US From: "Jill Gernetzke" Subject: Yak-List: V-530C, W530 and V530 prop blades Guys, Back in 2004, we became concerned about the future availability of the original V-530 prop blades. Carl and I had been to Vpered in 2000 and placed an order for 10 sets of new blades which never came to fruition. . You can go to their website and it looks like they are still being manufactured, but I wish you all of the luck in the world trying to get anywhere with them. We began to talking to Jim Rust at Whirl Wind in El Cajon, CA about designing and building a replacement carbon fiber blade for us. Passing thoughts were given to recreating the same paddle blade as original. Carl and Jim worked together on the design of our V-530C blades (pictured on our website www.m-14p.com ). In 2006, I wrote the check and signed an exclusive contract for the design and tooling costs of these blades: M-14P, Inc. V-530C hollow carbon fiber blades. Our guiding philosophy at M-14P, Inc. is maintain the M-14P and Yak as close to its intended purpose. The American psyche is one that wants to innovate, change, improve, economize and make better. I love that. However, we are keen to take a step back and question "Why did they do that?". The V-530 propeller hub is virtually bulletproof and field serviceable. The failures I have seen are owner induced: Severe over-tightening of the blade nuts and leaving the hub unprotected and in a position that allows the ingress of water into the hub over a lengthy period of time. For those 2 reasons, I unequivocally recommend the V-530 to a 52 guy. Model 12, Sukhoi and Yak 55 guys competing at the higher levels of acro will want/"need" an MT prop. Repair costs are markedly different when you ding an MT versus a V-530C or W-530 set of blades. We wanted a blade that was: 1. A direct replacement of the V-530. It is. New ferrules are machined for the blades. In years past, people have tied to reuse the Russian blade ferrules. 2. A blade design that would match the V-530 performance, and if it was any better that would be a bonus. The V-530C blades have done that. I have 2 great Yak 52 owners that have done several series of test flights on our V-530C blades and are meticulous in the data collection and recording. We have achieved our objective, but are still playing with the optimal blade angle setting on the V-530Cs. Our next round of test flights are comparison flights for the original blades vs. M-14P V-530C blades versus WhirlWind W-530 blades. I will post the results to the list when we are finished. 3. Economical. Both the V-530C and W-530 blades sell for $6,000 USD per pair. I talked to a customer this past week, who received a quote of $18K+ on an MT prop. I believe the Italian blades are $10K + a pair. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. I also believe they are a wood composite, not carbon fiber. The also manufacture spinners and I requested a quote for 10 units and never received a reply. Rick Volker was flying the blades at one time, perhaps Eric will want to comment on Rick's experience with the Italian blades. The prop diameter on the V-530C blades is 98". The blades weigh almost the same as original but the polar moment has moved closer to the center of the hub. (Whirl Wind W530 diameter is 100" and original is 94.5") The problem that Warren Hill has experienced with his new W530 blades was discovered in our shop, as we were attempting to assemble a hub with our V-530C blades. Whirl Wind does not do any hub work or carry any parts for the V530 hub. We do. We are able to perform the work also and we statically balance a prop assembly before it goes out the door. As a business courtesy, if you are going to use M-14P, Inc. as your source for technical support on the prop and are going to buy W530 blades , I would appreciate the order . You will pay the same price for the blades whether you buy from me or from Whirl Wind, but I receive a commission for the sale if they are purchased through M-14P, Inc. The time and money spent developing this blade program has been a large investment by M-14P, Inc. with an eye on the continued ability to keep your aircraft flying economically and well. Jim also has a carbon fiber spinner on the burner. Jill M-14P, Inc. www.m-14p.com ====== Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16720) http://www.pctools.com/ ====== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: V-530C, W530 and V530 prop blades From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Thanks Jill for your update. Doc Sent from my iPad On Jan 19, 2011, at 7:58 AM, "Jill Gernetzke" wrote: > > Guys, > > Back in 2004, we became concerned about the future availability of the > original V-530 prop blades. Carl and I had been to Vpered in 2000 and > placed an order for 10 sets of new blades which never came to fruition. . > You can go to their website and it looks like they are still being > manufactured, but I wish you all of the luck in the world trying to get > anywhere with them. We began to talking to Jim Rust at Whirl Wind in El > Cajon, CA about designing and building a replacement carbon fiber blade for > us. Passing thoughts were given to recreating the same paddle blade as > original. Carl and Jim worked together on the design of our V-530C blades > (pictured on our website www.m-14p.com ). In 2006, I wrote the check and > signed an exclusive contract for the design and tooling costs of these > blades: M-14P, Inc. V-530C hollow carbon fiber blades. > > Our guiding philosophy at M-14P, Inc. is maintain the M-14P and Yak as close > to its intended purpose. The American psyche is one that wants to > innovate, change, improve, economize and make better. I love that. > However, we are keen to take a step back and question "Why did they do > that?". The V-530 propeller hub is virtually bulletproof and field > serviceable. The failures I have seen are owner induced: Severe > over-tightening of the blade nuts and leaving the hub unprotected and in a > position that allows the ingress of water into the hub over a lengthy period > of time. For those 2 reasons, I unequivocally recommend the V-530 to a 52 > guy. Model 12, Sukhoi and Yak 55 guys competing at the higher levels of > acro will want/"need" an MT prop. Repair costs are markedly different when > you ding an MT versus a V-530C or W-530 set of blades. > > We wanted a blade that was: > 1. A direct replacement of the V-530. It is. New ferrules are > machined for the blades. In years past, people have tied to reuse the > Russian blade ferrules. > 2. A blade design that would match the V-530 performance, and if it was > any better that would be a bonus. The V-530C blades have done that. I have > 2 great Yak 52 owners that have done several series of test flights on our > V-530C blades and are meticulous in the data collection and recording. We > have achieved our objective, but are still playing with the optimal blade > angle setting on the V-530Cs. Our next round of test flights are comparison > flights for the original blades vs. M-14P V-530C blades versus WhirlWind > W-530 blades. I will post the results to the list when we are finished. > 3. Economical. Both the V-530C and W-530 blades sell for $6,000 USD > per pair. I talked to a customer this past week, who received a quote of > $18K+ on an MT prop. I believe the Italian blades are $10K + a pair. > Someone can correct me if I am wrong. I also believe they are a wood > composite, not carbon fiber. The also manufacture spinners and I requested > a quote for 10 units and never received a reply. Rick Volker was flying the > blades at one time, perhaps Eric will want to comment on Rick's experience > with the Italian blades. > > The prop diameter on the V-530C blades is 98". The blades weigh almost the > same as original but the polar moment has moved closer to the center of the > hub. (Whirl Wind W530 diameter is 100" and original is 94.5") > > The problem that Warren Hill has experienced with his new W530 blades was > discovered in our shop, as we were attempting to assemble a hub with our > V-530C blades. Whirl Wind does not do any hub work or carry any parts for > the V530 hub. We do. We are able to perform the work also and we > statically balance a prop assembly before it goes out the door. As a > business courtesy, if you are going to use M-14P, Inc. as your source for > technical support on the prop and are going to buy W530 blades , I would > appreciate the order . You will pay the same price for the blades whether > you buy from me or from Whirl Wind, but I receive a commission for the sale > if they are purchased through M-14P, Inc. The time and money spent > developing this blade program has been a large investment by M-14P, Inc. > with an eye on the continued ability to keep your aircraft flying > economically and well. > > Jim also has a carbon fiber spinner on the burner. > > Jill > M-14P, Inc. > www.m-14p.com > > > > > > ====== > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16720) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ====== > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: GT Propellors From: "Roger Kemp M.D." You know for the majority of us that are using our YAKs and CJs for weekend a ttitude adjustment the superiority Of which blade beats the other by 3 seconds is academic. Blades separating a t the hub, serviceability,static vs Dynamic balance out of the box and overall safety of the blades are of great interest. Expense of replacement In this down turned economy is of greater interest. For those that need to r eplace blades, cost,reliability, and serviceability are big issues. How much damage to the M-14 do these new composite carbon fiber blades do to the M-1 4 when landed gear up at idle throttle? The reliable v530 turns to saw dust w ithout generally destroying the engine necessitating an expensive engine rep lacement. Any data out there on that? We YAK and CJ'ers are a cheap bunch you know? ?^)) doc Sent from my iPad On Jan 19, 2011, at 4:56 AM, Eric Wobschall wrote: > Richard: > > I did find this data from Rick Volker, which I realize is anecdotal, but I think still useful and coming from someone who knows what he's doing: > >> Max level speed: mtv3=gt= v530=330kph >> Mtv9 slower by 10 kph >> Max cruise: mtv3=gt=v530=305kph >> Mtv9 slower by 8 kph lia >> Full power stall speed: V530=65 mph,mtv3=60 kph >> Gt=50kph , MTV 9= < 50 kph(hovering possible)-below measurable airspe ed >> Vertical penetration from 6G pull,330kph: >> V530=1600', mtv3=1700', GT=1700',Mtv9 00' >> Time on vertical line: v530=17 second. Mtv3 second. GT second s.MTV 9= >30 second (hovering). >> Time to climb 1000' to 2000': v530 second. >> GT= 20 second., mtv3=17 second, mtv9=17 seconds. >> Level acceleration full power, 200kph to 300kph: >> V530= 17sec. GT= 17sec. Mtv3=15 sec.mtv9=16 second. >> Descent rate at idle with prop at 100%rpm: >> Mtv9 =15 sec/1000',GT=32sec/1000',v530=35sec/1000',mtv3= 40sec/10 00' >> Note: the MTV 9 has longer blades and was optimized for static thrust. It stays much flatter power off, is significantly slower in speed, but will ho ver this weight aircraft. >> The GT has more static thrust than the MTV3 and more thrust from 0 to 120 kph. It loses to the mtv3 at 170kph Vy climb and at 200-300kph acceleration, but has same top speed and cruise speed. The GT power off descent rate is h igh, suggesting the blades stay very flat at power off . >> The GT was only static balanced and was much lower vibration than the v53 0 which had been dynamic balanced. The MTV3 and MTV9 had been dynamic balanc ed and were by far the smoothest props. It would be conceivable that the GT w ould be smoother if dynamic balanced. The GT may need a spinner with backing plate to allow dynamic balancing to the same level as a three blade prop. G T is developing a carbon fiber spinner that is 46 cm wide for the V530 hub. >> Vertical penetration and time on vertical line upwards were equal with mt v3 vs GT. >> =46rom these tests, the GT is as good as the mtv3-250 three blade prop du ring aerobatics and may be as good an all around prop for aerobatics, travel , and short field take offs. The mtv9-260-29 has been optimized for aerobati cs and air shows at the expense of slower cruise, max speed, and poor glide c haracteristics. It would be advisable to test the GT against the MTV9-250 wi th both the-27 and -29 blades. >> The GT is superior to the v530 in static thrust, vertical penetration, po wer on stall, and vibration. It is equal in climb, midspeed acceration,cruis e,and top speed. The GT has a slightly worse power off glide than the v530. There is also more propeller braking with the GT than with the V530 on roll out after landing. > > On Jan 19, 2011, at 4:43 AM, Richard.Goode wrote: > >> =46rom everything I have heard I suspect that the GT blades do give a goo d advantage over the V-530 blades.But then the V-530 is a 50+ year old desig n,so a new blade really SHOULD perform a lot better! >> But when is someone going to produce proper scientific performance figure s comparing these different props,including MT,rather than saying that"accel eration is much better",or similar subjective assesments?? >> Richard Goode Aerobatics >> Rhodds Farm >> Lyonshall >> Hereford >> HR5 3LW >> United Kingdom >> >> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 >> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 >> www.russianaeros.com >> I=99m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local p hone is +94 779 132 160. >> >> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Yak-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution >> >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:45 AM PST US From: "William Halverson" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cold weather oil woes Ah ... so that is more like 'output' side then ... OK thanks! Now I know why I have been told you really do not want to run the engine with the oil temp in the red .... boy on hot days in central California it doesn't take long to get it to the red on climb outs ... +-----Original Message----- +From: Rick Basiliere [mailto:discrab@earthlink.net] +Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 07:54 PM +To: yak-list@matronics.com +Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cold weather oil woes + + +I'm working on putting a Wolf Filter on as we speak, in my 55M. The temp sensor is downstream of the oil tank and upstream of the "filter" (Russian for the large screen on the firewall) and way upstream of the oil pump. +Respectfully +Rick b +. + +-----Original Message----- +>From: William Halverson +>Sent: Jan 18, 2011 8:19 PM +>To: yak-list@matronics.com +>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cold weather oil woes +> +> +> +>As I recall in my stock yak-55, the gauge reads oil inlet temp ... +> +>+-----Original Message----- +>+From: Larry Pine [mailto:threein60@yahoo.com] +>+Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 03:32 PM +>+To: yak-list@matronics.com +>+Subject: Re: Yak-List: Cold weather oil woes +>+ +>+You must be referring to the Yak MM. I have a CJ, procedures would most likely be identical but I don't have a Yak MM... So do share. Does the manual call out inlet temps to be monitored or outlet? +>+ +>+Larry Pine ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:28 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: GT Propellors Now THAT's clearly one of the most intelligent comments on the subject of prop blades I've heard. Thanks Doc for bringing me and probably some other folks on the list back down to earth. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (cell) Skype: Yakguy1 www.yak-52.com On 1/19/2011 9:06 AM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote: > You know for the majority of us that are using our YAKs and CJs for > weekend attitude adjustment the superiority > Of which blade beats the other by 3 seconds is academic. Blades > separating at the hub, serviceability,static vs > Dynamic balance out of the box and overall safety of the blades are of > great interest. Expense of replacement > In this down turned economy is of greater interest. For those that need > to replace blades, cost,reliability, and serviceability are big issues. > How much damage to the M-14 do these new composite carbon fiber blades > do to the M-14 when landed gear up at idle throttle? The reliable v530 > turns to saw dust without generally destroying the engine necessitating > an expensive engine replacement. Any data out there on that? > We YAK and CJ'ers are a cheap bunch you know? > ?^)) > doc > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 19, 2011, at 4:56 AM, Eric Wobschall > wrote: > >> Richard: >> >> I did find this data from Rick Volker, which I realize is anecdotal, >> but I think still useful and coming from someone who knows what he's >> doing: >> >>> Max level speed: mtv3=gt= v530=330kph >>> Mtv9 slower by 10 kph >>> Max cruise: mtv3=gt=v530=305kph >>> Mtv9 slower by 8 kph lia >>> Full power stall speed: V530=65 mph,mtv3=60 kph >>> Gt=50kph , MTV 9= < 50 kph(hovering possible)-below measurable airspeed >>> Vertical penetration from 6G pull,330kph: >>> V530=1600', mtv3=1700', GT=1700',Mtv9 00' >>> Time on vertical line: v530=17 second. Mtv3 second. GT >>> seconds.MTV 9= >30 second (hovering). >>> Time to climb 1000' to 2000': v530 second. >>> GT= 20 second., mtv3=17 second, mtv9=17 seconds. >>> Level acceleration full power, 200kph to 300kph: >>> V530= 17sec. GT= 17sec. Mtv3=15 sec.mtv9=16 second. >>> Descent rate at idle with prop at 100%rpm: >>> Mtv9 =15 sec/1000',GT=32sec/1000',v530=35sec/1000',mtv3= 40sec/1000' >>> Note: the MTV 9 has longer blades and was optimized for static >>> thrust. It stays much flatter power off, is significantly slower in >>> speed, but will hover this weight aircraft. >>> The GT has more static thrust than the MTV3 and more thrust from 0 to >>> 120kph. It loses to the mtv3 at 170kph Vy climb and at 200-300kph >>> acceleration, but has same top speed and cruise speed. The GT power >>> off descent rate is high, suggesting the blades stay very flat at >>> power off . >>> The GT was only static balanced and was much lower vibration than the >>> v530 which had been dynamic balanced. The MTV3 and MTV9 had been >>> dynamic balanced and were by far the smoothest props. It would be >>> conceivable that the GT would be smoother if dynamic balanced. The GT >>> may need a spinner with backing plate to allow dynamic balancing to >>> the same level as a three blade prop. GT is developing a carbon fiber >>> spinner that is 46 cm wide for the V530 hub. >>> Vertical penetration and time on vertical line upwards were equal >>> with mtv3 vs GT. >>> From these tests, the GT is as good as the mtv3-250 three blade prop >>> during aerobatics and may be as good an all around prop for >>> aerobatics, travel, and short field take offs. The mtv9-260-29 has >>> been optimized for aerobatics and air shows at the expense of slower >>> cruise, max speed, and poor glide characteristics. It would be >>> advisable to test the GT against the MTV9-250 with both the-27 and >>> -29 blades. >>> The GT is superior to the v530 in static thrust, vertical >>> penetration, power on stall, and vibration. It is equal in climb, >>> midspeed acceration,cruise,and top speed. The GT has a slightly worse >>> power off glide than the v530. There is also more propeller braking >>> with the GT than with the V530 on roll out after landing. >> >> On Jan 19, 2011, at 4:43 AM, Richard.Goode wrote: >> >>> From everything I have heard I suspect that the GT blades do give a >>> good advantage over the V-530 blades.But then the V-530 is a 50+ year >>> old design,so a new blade really SHOULD perform a lot better! >>> But when is someone going to produce proper scientific performance >>> figures comparing these different props,including MT,rather than >>> saying that"acceleration is much better",or similar subjective >>> assesments?? >>> Richard Goode Aerobatics >>> Rhodds Farm >>> Lyonshall >>> Hereford >>> HR5 3LW >>> United Kingdom >>> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 >>> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 >>> www.russianaeros.com >>> >>> Im currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local >>> phone is +94 779 132 160. >>> * >>> >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List >>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> * >>> >> >> * >> >> ================================== >> ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List >> ================================== >> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> ================================== >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ================================== >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:20 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Percent RPM to Rpm help From: "N642K" My CJ has always had a digital tach, a manifold pressure gauge in inches and airspeed in MPH. (Makes for an interesting brief for formation flying) Now I'm installing an M-14. What are your recommendations for takeoff/climb/cruise power settings in Inches and (actual)RPM? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327575#327575 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: GT Propellors From: Eric Wobschall No doubt of it. As Jill stated this need arose primarily due to a dearth of replacement blades, and not so much responding to a need for better performance. Having said this, the new offerings seem to be a step up in terms of balance and finish quality. I would also point out that performance of the props (including the three-blade MT) are surprisingly similar. On Jan 19, 2011, at 10:36 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote: > > Now THAT's clearly one of the most intelligent comments on the subject of prop blades I've heard. Thanks Doc for bringing me and probably some other folks on the list back down to earth. > Dennis > > A. Dennis Savarese > 334-285-6263 > 334-546-8182 (cell) > Skype: Yakguy1 > www.yak-52.com > > On 1/19/2011 9:06 AM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote: >> You know for the majority of us that are using our YAKs and CJs for >> weekend attitude adjustment the superiority >> Of which blade beats the other by 3 seconds is academic. Blades >> separating at the hub, serviceability,static vs >> Dynamic balance out of the box and overall safety of the blades are of >> great interest. Expense of replacement >> In this down turned economy is of greater interest. For those that need >> to replace blades, cost,reliability, and serviceability are big issues. >> How much damage to the M-14 do these new composite carbon fiber blades >> do to the M-14 when landed gear up at idle throttle? The reliable v530 >> turns to saw dust without generally destroying the engine necessitating >> an expensive engine replacement. Any data out there on that? >> We YAK and CJ'ers are a cheap bunch you know? >> ?^)) >> doc >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jan 19, 2011, at 4:56 AM, Eric Wobschall > > wrote: >> >>> Richard: >>> >>> I did find this data from Rick Volker, which I realize is anecdotal, >>> but I think still useful and coming from someone who knows what he's >>> doing: >>> >>>> Max level speed: mtv3=gt= v530=330kph >>>> Mtv9 slower by 10 kph >>>> Max cruise: mtv3=gt=v530=305kph >>>> Mtv9 slower by 8 kph lia >>>> Full power stall speed: V530=65 mph,mtv3=60 kph >>>> Gt=50kph , MTV 9= < 50 kph(hovering possible)-below measurable airspeed >>>> Vertical penetration from 6G pull,330kph: >>>> V530=1600', mtv3=1700', GT=1700',Mtv9 00' >>>> Time on vertical line: v530=17 second. Mtv3 second. GT >>>> seconds.MTV 9= >30 second (hovering). >>>> Time to climb 1000' to 2000': v530 second. >>>> GT= 20 second., mtv3=17 second, mtv9=17 seconds. >>>> Level acceleration full power, 200kph to 300kph: >>>> V530= 17sec. GT= 17sec. Mtv3=15 sec.mtv9=16 second. >>>> Descent rate at idle with prop at 100%rpm: >>>> Mtv9 =15 sec/1000',GT=32sec/1000',v530=35sec/1000',mtv3= 40sec/1000' >>>> Note: the MTV 9 has longer blades and was optimized for static >>>> thrust. It stays much flatter power off, is significantly slower in >>>> speed, but will hover this weight aircraft. >>>> The GT has more static thrust than the MTV3 and more thrust from 0 to >>>> 120kph. It loses to the mtv3 at 170kph Vy climb and at 200-300kph >>>> acceleration, but has same top speed and cruise speed. The GT power >>>> off descent rate is high, suggesting the blades stay very flat at >>>> power off . >>>> The GT was only static balanced and was much lower vibration than the >>>> v530 which had been dynamic balanced. The MTV3 and MTV9 had been >>>> dynamic balanced and were by far the smoothest props. It would be >>>> conceivable that the GT would be smoother if dynamic balanced. The GT >>>> may need a spinner with backing plate to allow dynamic balancing to >>>> the same level as a three blade prop. GT is developing a carbon fiber >>>> spinner that is 46 cm wide for the V530 hub. >>>> Vertical penetration and time on vertical line upwards were equal >>>> with mtv3 vs GT. >>>> From these tests, the GT is as good as the mtv3-250 three blade prop >>>> during aerobatics and may be as good an all around prop for >>>> aerobatics, travel, and short field take offs. The mtv9-260-29 has >>>> been optimized for aerobatics and air shows at the expense of slower >>>> cruise, max speed, and poor glide characteristics. It would be >>>> advisable to test the GT against the MTV9-250 with both the-27 and >>>> -29 blades. >>>> The GT is superior to the v530 in static thrust, vertical >>>> penetration, power on stall, and vibration. It is equal in climb, >>>> midspeed acceration,cruise,and top speed. The GT has a slightly worse >>>> power off glide than the v530. There is also more propeller braking >>>> with the GT than with the V530 on roll out after landing. >>> >>> On Jan 19, 2011, at 4:43 AM, Richard.Goode wrote: >>> >>>> From everything I have heard I suspect that the GT blades do give a >>>> good advantage over the V-530 blades.But then the V-530 is a 50+ year >>>> old design,so a new blade really SHOULD perform a lot better! >>>> But when is someone going to produce proper scientific performance >>>> figures comparing these different props,including MT,rather than >>>> saying that"acceleration is much better",or similar subjective >>>> assesments?? >>>> Richard Goode Aerobatics >>>> Rhodds Farm >>>> Lyonshall >>>> Hereford >>>> HR5 3LW >>>> United Kingdom >>>> Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 >>>> Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 >>>> www.russianaeros.com >>>> >>>> Im currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local >>>> phone is +94 779 132 160. >>>> * >>>> >>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List >>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>> >>> * >>> >>> ================================== >>> ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List >>> ================================== >>> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >>> ================================== >>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> ================================== >>> >>> * >> * >> >> >> * > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:03 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Percent RPM to Rpm help I think this link will answer your questions. http://www.yak-52.com/Power%20Settings.htm It's on my web site. To convert the manifold pressure shown in chart in millimeters, multiply by .0394. Basically, at WOT, an M14P at sea level on a standard day will develop just about 35" of manifold pressure. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (cell) Skype: Yakguy1 www.yak-52.com On 1/19/2011 10:18 AM, N642K wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "N642K" > > My CJ has always had a digital tach, a manifold pressure gauge in inches and airspeed in MPH. (Makes for an interesting brief for formation flying) > > Now I'm installing an M-14. > > What are your recommendations for takeoff/climb/cruise power settings in Inches and (actual)RPM? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327575#327575 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:54 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Percent RPM to Rpm help From: "N642K" That's it! FANTASTIC INFORMATION!. Thanks for your time Dennis! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327582#327582 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:22 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Percent RPM to Rpm help My pleasure. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (cell) Skype: Yakguy1 www.yak-52.com On 1/19/2011 11:02 AM, N642K wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "N642K" > > That's it! FANTASTIC INFORMATION!. Thanks for your time Dennis! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327582#327582 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:54 PM PST US From: "Chris Wise" Subject: RE: Yak-List: GT Propellors Strong rumour suggests that this was the result of a birdstrike??? Chris. From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Olivier Vigneron Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2011 9:13 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: GT Propellors I found something not so good about the GT Prop: http://gtpropellers.com/ Of course a problem is always a possibility but the AAIB's conclusions are very bad: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/september_2009/speedtwin_st2__ g_stdl.cfm Olivier 2011/1/19 Richard.Goode >From everything I have heard I suspect that the GT blades do give a good advantage over the V-530 blades.But then the V-530 is a 50+ year old design,so a new blade really SHOULD perform a lot better! But when is someone going to produce proper scientific performance figures comparing these different props,including MT,rather than saying that"acceleration is much better",or similar subjective assesments?? Richard Goode Aerobatics Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Hereford HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 www.russianaeros.com I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160. et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: GT Propellors From: rick@rvairshows.com SG93IGFib3V0IHVzaW5nIGxlc3MgZnVlbCBhdCBhIGdpdmVuIGFpcnNwZWVkLCBiZXR0ZXIgcmVz aXN0YW5jZSB0byBzdG9uZXMgYW5kIHJhaW4sIHNtb290aGVyIGJhbGFuY2Ugb3V0IG9mIHRoZSBi b3gsIHV0aWxpdHkgb2YgdXNpbmcgdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsIGh1Yiwgb3Igc2F2aW5nIGJyYWtlcyBk dWUgdG8gYmV0dGVyIHByb3AgYnJha2luZywgaW5jcmVhc2VkIHNhZmV0eSBpbiBzaG9ydGVyIHRh a2Ugb2ZmIHJvbGw/IFRocm93IGluIGVhc2Ugb2YgcmVwYWlyLiBUaGUgR1QgcHJvcCBkb2VzIGFs bCB0aGVzZSB0aGluZ3MgYmV0dGVyIHRvIGFwcGVhbCB0byB0aG9zZSBsaWdodCBpbiB0aGUgd2Fs bGV0LiBCZXR0ZXIgQ2xpbWIgYW5kIGNydWlzZSBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSB5aWVsZHMgZWNvbm9teS4g IEkgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgTVQgcHJvcCBpcyBvdmVya2lsbCBmb3IgbW9zdCBZYWsvQ0ogb3du ZXJzLg0KUmljayBWT0xLRVINClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBWZXJpem9uIFdpcmVsZXNzIEJsYWNrQmVy cnkNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206ICJSb2dlciBLZW1wIE0uRC4i IDx2aXBlcmRvY0BtaW5kc3ByaW5nLmNvbT4NClNlbmRlcjogb3duZXIteWFrLWxpc3Qtc2VydmVy QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20NCkRhdGU6IFdlZCwgMTkgSmFuIDIwMTEgMDk6MDY6MTcgDQpUbzogeWFr LWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbTx5YWstbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tPg0KUmVwbHktVG86IHlh ay1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb21TdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogWWFrLUxpc3Q6IEdUIFByb3BlbGxvcnMN Cg0KDQo ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:47 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Cold weather oil woes From: "keithmckinley" For what's it worth: My system, which may or may not have been Craig's (on the aircraft when I bought it) but looked identical, failed in cold weather as well. My oil tank and sump was heated, the oil cooler was not. When the cold oil came out of the cooler and hit the filter housing it blew shearing the shaft the filter threads on to. The problem with using systems like this, especially in cold wx, is that they are not designed for aircraft and the oils we use. They are meant to be used as hydraulic oil filters. The filter housing bypass is too small for the volume and viscosity of the oil trying to pass through (if needed) and I suspect the filter construction and size is not up to the task either. I am thankful this happened on the ground. I've since installed a ADC spin on system designed for radial engine aircraft (very large bypass) and have placed a strip heater on my oil cooler. Additionally, I will not move the throttle past 1200 rpm in cold weather until I have 20C. Even better...I now have a heated hangar.... -------- Keith McKinley 700HS KFIT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327625#327625 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:44 PM PST US From: Cpayne Subject: Yak-List: Re:RE: GT Propellors Remarkable! Same sorta experience I had with email to GT propellers rep named "Humberto". Me no speakee english I guess. Craig Payne ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:29 PM PST US From: Walter Lannon Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Cold weather oil woes Keith, et al: You bring up a number of points that I have commented on previously, apparently to little avail. First let me say I agree with your choice of filter systems. I install only approved radial engine oil filter systems. My preference is the original ADC screen type but the spin-on is fine. Have also installed the Air Tractor spin-on which is also approved for the R985/R1340, etc. The use of the term "radial" is not the defining description of these aircraft approved systems. A better one may be a DRY SUMP engine of high oil flow with an oil scavange pump system. Of course all radials fit this description but so do certain inline types. There is no point in installing an external oil filter unless it is located to filter oil immediately on leaving the engine. Scavange pump pressure is NOT regulated by a relief valve. Initial running with very cold oil could produce pressures in excess of 300 psi. Many cold weather radial installations utilize a "surge" valve to dump oil directly to the tank. On the R1340/Harvard installation this opens at 85psi. This is in addition to the normal oil cooler by-pass valve. The hydraulic system, super micron, filters that some are using on their engines have a miniscule capacity by-pass that opens at 15 psi. That basically means that the by-pass probably spends as much time open as closed. Even with an open by-pass and cold oil there could be enough pressure to collapse the filter. IMHO they are a total waste of time and money and do not belong on an aircraft engine. FWIW Walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "keithmckinley" Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:58 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Cold weather oil woes > > > For what's it worth: > > My system, which may or may not have been Craig's (on the aircraft when I > bought it) but looked identical, failed in cold weather as well. My oil > tank and sump was heated, the oil cooler was not. When the cold oil came > out of the cooler and hit the filter housing it blew shearing the shaft > the filter threads on to. > > The problem with using systems like this, especially in cold wx, is that > they are not designed for aircraft and the oils we use. They are meant to > be used as hydraulic oil filters. > > The filter housing bypass is too small for the volume and viscosity of > the oil trying to pass through (if needed) and I suspect the filter > construction and size is not up to the task either. > > I am thankful this happened on the ground. > > I've since installed a ADC spin on system designed for radial engine > aircraft (very large bypass) and have placed a strip heater on my oil > cooler. Additionally, I will not move the throttle past 1200 rpm in cold > weather until I have 20C. > > Even better...I now have a heated hangar.... > > -------- > Keith McKinley > 700HS > KFIT > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327625#327625 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.