---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/29/11: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:36 AM - Re: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example (Jan Mevis) 2. 04:42 AM - Re: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example (A. Dennis Savarese) 3. 04:46 AM - More Customer service (Cpayne) 4. 04:49 AM - Re: Aerobatic Training (GreasySideUp) 5. 04:52 AM - Re: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example (James Partington) 6. 05:05 AM - Re: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example (A. Dennis Savarese) 7. 06:04 AM - Re:canopy replacement (Cpayne) 8. 10:07 AM - Re: More Customer service (Walter Lannon) 9. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example (Didier Blouzard) 10. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example (Chris Wise) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:35 AM PST US From: "Jan Mevis" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example Without taking any position at all in this dispute, I want to make it clear and state that it's not a good idea to fight out any misunderstandings on this forum. Many of the participants on this list make a contribution so that it can continue living. Most of us need this list because it's a very valuable add-on to whatever information on Yaks or CJ's is available. Very often problems have been sold after asking a question on this list. So PLEASE stick to the rules of conduct as published regularly by Matt. Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gtnorth Sent: zaterdag 29 januari 2011 3:27 Subject: Yak-List: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example Dear Mr. Craig Payne, since it looks like I'm the bad guy, and you like to go public, I will put public all the email you sent me with my answer and let the other friends on the forum make their own conclusion. Let's start: from Cpayne reply-to Cpayne to hdramisino@gmail.com date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 5:57 AM subject Yak prop mailed-by joimail.com hide details 5/25/08 Sir; Is that new propeller for the Yak a complete unit? I'm really only interested in new blades that fit the old hub. Craig Payne Humberto's answer: Humberto Dramisino to Cpayne cc GT PROPELLERS date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:32 AM subject Re: Yak prop mailed-by gmail.com hide details 5/25/08 Dear Craig, No they fit the original hub, you only have to do after installation a dynamic balancing. Please contact me for any other information this is some information for you: New GT2-V-25 blades versus V-530 Vperod Type: Type : GT2-V-25 V-530 Tractor Tractor Two blade Two blade Hub application : V530 V530 Installation :Screwed in to hub Same Diameter : 2.50/98,4" 2.40/94.5" Maximal blade width :245 mm/96" 240 mm/94.4 Weight:About 9 kgs/18 Po. a blade Same Construction:Wood/carbon all wood Leading protection :Composite metal Blade design: Scimitar Oar Shape Airfoils : GT design Unknown Inertia moment : 05 KG-MP SP.S 05 KG-MP SP.S Application: 2.50/98", 360 hp 360 HP Looking : Modern sleek styled Old style Availability : New production Only used Maintenance : Spare blades /Oh Recon.old PERFORMANCE AND ADVANTAGES . Thanks to greater diameter and modern airfoils adopted on GT blades, tested in various flying conditions for years, many Yak 52 achieved outstanding performance compared to standard original blades : - Greater static thrust. - Shorter take off distance,both grass or hard surfaces. - Higher cruise speed @ any power setting. - @ 70% of power setting an average of 15 / 18 KMH / 8 /10 KTS faster. - Shorter landings thanks to greater propeller disc. - More energic feeling during all aerobatic manoeuvres. - Very good cooling in hot places. - Reduced noise level both in the cockpit that out side. - Smoother engine running. - Lower fuel burning. - Reduced engine damage when prop ground impact compared to blade made of aluminium or all composite. FEATURES : Blades diameter can be arraged from 2.50/98", up to 2.65/104". Standard configuration scimitar tips shaped. Square shaped blasdes on request. Metal leading edge in progress. For unlimited aerobatic operatos using 400/420 HP a greater metal blade retention is adopted. Standard finishing is high gloss White,Black,Grey. Custom paint on request. Carbon finishing is now available on request . Worldwide delivery . Standard YAK 52 360 HP 2.50/98", diameter. Other aircrafts using GT2-V-25 blades : Yak 52 TW. Yak 50. Yak 55. Yak 18. Other tests are in progress . Comparation GT2-V-25 price versus V530 and three blade. A reconditioned V-530 blades cost about 1.600,00 Euros with better looking. No performance increase. New GT blades with higher performance cost 5.500,00 Euros. Alternative : Three blade with modern looking and high performance cost about : 13.000 Euros Wich of these three options is your best solution ? IMPORTANT : GT-PROPELLERS supply only M-14 blades own designed and produced, statically balanced. GT-Propellers strongly advice to make new prop balance after installing the GT new blades. For every kind of M-14 application GT Propellers can advice you the best individual solution. Best regards, Humberto After this email I wrote another email to many YAK pilots and this was the email: (please everybody notice the the date) From: Humberto Dramisino Cc: GT PROPELLERS Sent: 2/4/2009 6:42:26 AM Subject: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller Dear Sir, My name is Humberto Dramisino and I'm a business partner with GT propeller in Italy. GT is an old manufacture of propeller for aircraft and they do propeller for warbird like your CJ and many other. I will receive by the end of February one set of blade for your aircraft and I'm looking for somebody interested to buy them, all the test they were already made in Italy and Romania, and the result were outstanding compared to the original one. The price for both propeller delivered to you is 8989.00, attached to this email you have the manual please have a look. Our propeller are made in high densified wood, and are capable to use all the power of your engine not limited like some of our competitors. If you have any other question, please don't hesitate to contact me. Best regards, Humberto Mr. Craig answer was: rom yakman@joimail.com reply-to yakman@joimail.com to Humberto Dramisino date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:06 PM subject RE: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller hide details 2/4/09 Humberto, Thank you for the offer. Have not I seen this propeller blade replacement offerring for over 3 years now? At $8989 USD for blades only, I am afraid that the MTV 3-blade, with hub, becomes a viable option. At a price point of $4000 - $5000 USD, the blades could get some initial market share, leading to later price increases. Perhaps if your company could visit the major events like Sun 'n Fun and Oshkosh with a flying demo version, you could start getting orders in the U.S. I could try your prop blades and show them off as I am located at Lakeland Florida at the Sun 'N Fun location and also fly at Oshkosh AirVenure each year. Could I also suggest that your Yak Manual could use some editing of the English translation? This is something I could do. I spent my career in the technical world and have authored many of the manuals available on the RedStar Pilots Association website. Craig Payne This is my answer: rom Humberto Dramisino to yakman@joimail.com cc GT PROPELLERS date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:27 PM subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller mailed-by gmail.com hide details 2/4/09 Dear Craig, Thank you for your quick response, just to clarify, the price is for the two blade delivered (shipping included), you have to only remove the original and put the new one on it, same hub. The two blade perform way better than the 3 blade from MT you can not even compare them, test were done in Italy. 3 blades look only nicer if you want, no more than that. with GT-Propeller we guarantee better climb, better cruise at same rpm, shorter landing, low noise comparable to 3 blades, , not to mention better fuel economy. The foil design by GT Italy only for the Yak's type airplane is not a generic prop like MT. If you interested please let me know, we are looking for serious people to do serious business, we are not looking for somebody to test because as I mentioned test were already done for the past 5 years, the product is final and outperform anything that today is on the market. I will have soon the first set in north America please let me know if there is any interest on your side. We are so sure about our quality that in our policy is if you are not satisfy we will take the propeller back and you will be refund in full, this is how we now that our product is the best, try to ask MT to do the same. Best regards, Humberto This is Mr. Craig answer: from yakman@joimail.com reply-to yakman@joimail.com to Humberto Dramisino date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 6:45 AM subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller hide details 2/5/09 Humberto, It's not about testing, it's about marketing. Many owners tend to discount claims made by manufacturers and trust what they hear from a fellow owner and see flying. Even if your blades could perform as you state, no one is going to believe it without visible proof. The 3-blade "looks" better also, this is important to many owners. Regardless, you will find few sales at those prices. As for the existing 2-blade V530, Whirlwind Propeller will refurbish an existing set of blades with a composite cover and nickel edge for around $2500 per pair, delivered. They look great and last a long time. My aircraft is a Nanchang CJ-6 with M-14P engine and large spinner, my speeds are much higher than the Yaks. Could your propeller perform as well on this kind of airframe? Engineering claims will not matter as much as real comparisons by private owners. Craig Payne This is my last email before he stated "something got lost in the translation: from Humberto Dramisino to yakman@joimail.com cc GT PROPELLERS date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:45 AM subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller mailed-by gmail.com hide details 2/5/09 Dear Craig, Like I mentioned to you I'm only looking somebody serious to sell my first set of blade, and it amazed me how in this field owners of airplane are only looking for the cheapest thing in the market to mounted on one of the most important part of the airplane, and they don't look for more tangible improvement, not to mention safety. I see people repair cracked wood propeller on these airplanes by adding a piece of wood in the crack with glue, sand it and flying it, when in Italy we not even use them to hang it on the wall. I also notice that often some pilot spend many thousand of dollar in useless instrument when the only important thing that hold them in the air they want it as cheap as possible, well I don't want to generalize and that's way I know i will find somebody that understand all this. About the speed of your airplane yes the propeller will do the perfect job on yours as well, if your airplane is more sleek in the air it will use more pitch and the blade is design for that. I will keep you posted, Best regards, Humberto Dramisino Since than I never heard from you, until you wrote to GT the following: Buongiorno Alex, So does all this text you wrote on the Yak-list mean that we will see a set of those prop blades on a Yak-52 or a CJ-6 at either Sun-n-Fun or Oshkosh? I have tried to communicate with "Humberto" via email numerous times but something got lost in translation. It's not the Talk I'm interested in, It's your prop blades on one of our airplanes Walking the Talk, that will sell me on this prop. Quotes from your Engineering department, filtered through Marketing may prove difficult to translate into sales. Craig Payne After this email... sorry guys I blew out, why? because after all the tests done by Rick Volker in USA, and many other pilots worldwide, you are still wondering if these blades are good or not, and trying to convince us to send you a free set for you to test. Sorry you came too late, no test no more, if want them you will have to pay. About the manufacturers that are doing good looking replacement propellers I tell you: sorry, GT is focused on making hi performance propellers not only good looking design, and safety is our first target on our product. That's why GT takes the time to develop products - behind those blades there are years of testing, test after test. The material GT use is one of the best available in world from the wood to the composite, no compromise, no cheap off corners. GT doesn't make cheap propellers. If you are looking to save money and buy a less expensive propeller and, you like to be a Guinea pig for others then do what you please. If you'd like to discuss business, I can be available any time, just call me. Best regards, Humberto Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328871#328871 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:28 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example Take this dispute off the Yak list. I for one am not interested in reading or seeing your personal emails. If you have a disagreement with someone, email or speak to that person directly. Dennis On 1/28/2011 8:27 PM, gtnorth wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "gtnorth" > > Dear Mr. Craig Payne, since it looks like I'm the bad guy, and you like to go public, I will put public all the email you sent me with my answer and let the other friends on the forum make their own conclusion. > > Let's start: > > from Cpayne > reply-to Cpayne > to hdramisino@gmail.com > date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 5:57 AM > subject Yak prop > mailed-by joimail.com > hide details 5/25/08 > Sir; > > Is that new propeller for the Yak a complete unit? I'm really only interested in new blades that fit the old hub. > > Craig Payne > > Humberto's answer: > > Humberto Dramisino > to Cpayne > cc GT PROPELLERS > date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:32 AM > subject Re: Yak prop > mailed-by gmail.com > hide details 5/25/08 > Dear Craig, > No they fit the original hub, you only have to do after installation a > dynamic balancing. > Please contact me for any other information > this is some information for you: > > New GT2-V-25 blades versus V-530 Vperod > > > Type: Type : > GT2-V-25 V-530 > Tractor Tractor > Two blade Two blade > Hub application : V530 V530 > Installation :Screwed in to hub Same > Diameter : 2.50/98,4" 2.40/94.5" > Maximal blade width :245 mm/96" 240 mm/94.4 > Weight:About 9 kgs/18 Po. a blade Same > Construction:Wood/carbon all wood > Leading protection :Composite metal > Blade design: Scimitar Oar Shape > Airfoils : GT design Unknown > Inertia moment : 05 KG-MP SP.S 05 KG-MP SP.S > Application: 2.50/98", 360 hp 360 HP > Looking : Modern sleek styled Old style > Availability : New production Only used > Maintenance : Spare blades /Oh Recon.old > > PERFORMANCE AND ADVANTAGES . > > Thanks to greater diameter and modern airfoils adopted on GT blades, > tested in various flying conditions for years, many Yak 52 achieved > outstanding performance compared to standard original blades : > > - Greater static thrust. > - Shorter take off distance,both grass or hard surfaces. > - Higher cruise speed @ any power setting. > - @ 70% of power setting an average of 15 / 18 KMH / 8 /10 KTS faster. > - Shorter landings thanks to greater propeller disc. > - More energic feeling during all aerobatic manoeuvres. > - Very good cooling in hot places. > - Reduced noise level both in the cockpit that out side. > - Smoother engine running. > - Lower fuel burning. > - Reduced engine damage when prop ground impact compared to blade made > of aluminium or all composite. > > > FEATURES : > > Blades diameter can be arraged from 2.50/98", up to 2.65/104". > Standard configuration scimitar tips shaped. > Square shaped blasdes on request. > Metal leading edge in progress. > For unlimited aerobatic operatos using 400/420 HP a greater metal > blade retention is adopted. > Standard finishing is high gloss White,Black,Grey. > Custom paint on request. > Carbon finishing is now available on request . > Worldwide delivery . > Standard YAK 52 360 HP 2.50/98", diameter. > Other aircrafts using GT2-V-25 blades : > Yak 52 TW. > Yak 50. > Yak 55. > Yak 18. > Other tests are in progress . > > Comparation > > GT2-V-25 price versus V530 and three blade. > A reconditioned V-530 blades cost about 1.600,00 Euros with better > looking. No performance increase. > New GT blades with higher performance cost > 5.500,00 Euros. > > Alternative : > Three blade with modern looking and high performance cost about : 13.000 Euros > Wich of these three options is your best solution ? > IMPORTANT : > GT-PROPELLERS supply only M-14 blades own designed and produced, > statically balanced. > GT-Propellers strongly advice to make new prop balance after > installing the GT new blades. > For every kind of M-14 application GT Propellers can advice you the > best individual solution. > > Best regards, > Humberto > > After this email I wrote another email to many YAK pilots and this was the email: (please everybody notice the the date) > > > From: Humberto Dramisino > To: yakman@joimail.com > Cc: GT PROPELLERS > Sent: 2/4/2009 6:42:26 AM > Subject: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > > Dear Sir, > My name is Humberto Dramisino and I'm a business partner with GT propeller in Italy. > > GT is an old manufacture of propeller for aircraft and they do propeller for warbird like your CJ and many other. > > I will receive by the end of February one set of blade for your aircraft and I'm looking for somebody interested to buy them, all the test they were already made in Italy and Romania, and the result were outstanding compared to the original one. > The price for both propeller delivered to you is 8989.00, attached to this email you have the manual please have a look. > > Our propeller are made in high densified wood, and are capable to use all the power of your engine not limited like some of our competitors. > > If you have any other question, please don't hesitate to contact me. > Best regards, > Humberto > > Mr. Craig answer was: > > rom yakman@joimail.com > reply-to yakman@joimail.com > to Humberto Dramisino > date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:06 PM > subject RE: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > hide details 2/4/09 > Humberto, > > Thank you for the offer. Have not I seen this propeller blade replacement offerring for over 3 years now? At $8989 USD for blades only, I am afraid that the MTV 3-blade, with hub, becomes a viable option. At a price point of $4000 - $5000 USD, the blades could get some initial market share, leading to later price increases. Perhaps if your company could visit the major events like Sun 'n Fun and Oshkosh with a flying demo version, you could start getting orders in the U.S. > > I could try your prop blades and show them off as I am located at Lakeland Florida at the Sun 'N Fun location and also fly at Oshkosh AirVenure each year. > > Could I also suggest that your Yak Manual could use some editing of the English translation? This is something I could do. I spent my career in the technical world and have authored many of the manuals available on the RedStar Pilots Association website. > > Craig Payne > > This is my answer: > > rom Humberto Dramisino > to yakman@joimail.com > cc GT PROPELLERS > date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:27 PM > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > mailed-by gmail.com > hide details 2/4/09 > Dear Craig, > Thank you for your quick response, just to clarify, the price is for the two blade delivered (shipping included), you have to only remove the original and put the new one on it, same hub. > The two blade perform way better than the 3 blade from MT you can not even compare them, test were done in Italy. > 3 blades look only nicer if you want, no more than that. > with GT-Propeller we guarantee better climb, better cruise at same rpm, shorter landing, low noise comparable to 3 blades, , not to mention better fuel economy. > The foil design by GT Italy only for the Yak's type airplane is not a generic prop like MT. > If you interested please let me know, we are looking for serious people to do serious business, we are not looking for somebody to test because as I mentioned test were already done for the past 5 years, the product is final and outperform anything that today is on the market. > I will have soon the first set in north America please let me know if there is any interest on your side. > We are so sure about our quality that in our policy is if you are not satisfy we will take the propeller back and you will be refund in full, this is how we now that our product is the best, try to ask MT to do the same. > Best regards, > Humberto > > This is Mr. Craig answer: > > from yakman@joimail.com > reply-to yakman@joimail.com > to Humberto Dramisino > date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 6:45 AM > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > hide details 2/5/09 > Humberto, > > It's not about testing, it's about marketing. Many owners tend to discount claims made by manufacturers and trust what they hear from a fellow owner and see flying. Even if your blades could perform as you state, no one is going to believe it without visible proof. > > The 3-blade "looks" better also, this is important to many owners. Regardless, you will find few sales at those prices. As for the existing 2-blade V530, Whirlwind Propeller will refurbish an existing set of blades with a composite cover and nickel edge for around $2500 per pair, delivered. They look great and last a long time. > > My aircraft is a Nanchang CJ-6 with M-14P engine and large spinner, my speeds are much higher than the Yaks. Could your propeller perform as well on this kind of airframe? Engineering claims will not matter as much as real comparisons by private owners. > > Craig Payne > > This is my last email before he stated "something got lost in the translation: > > from Humberto Dramisino > to yakman@joimail.com > cc GT PROPELLERS > date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:45 AM > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > mailed-by gmail.com > hide details 2/5/09 > Dear Craig, > Like I mentioned to you I'm only looking somebody serious to sell my first set of blade, and it amazed me how in this field owners of airplane are only looking for the cheapest thing in the market to mounted on one of the most important part of the airplane, and they don't look for more tangible improvement, not to mention safety. > I see people repair cracked wood propeller on these airplanes by adding a piece of wood in the crack with glue, sand it and flying it, when in Italy we not even use them to hang it on the wall. > > I also notice that often some pilot spend many thousand of dollar in useless instrument when the only important thing that hold them in the air they want it as cheap as possible, well I don't want to generalize and that's way I know i will find somebody that understand all this. > About the speed of your airplane yes the propeller will do the perfect job on yours as well, if your airplane is more sleek in the air it will use more pitch and the blade is design for that. > > I will keep you posted, > Best regards, > Humberto Dramisino > > Since than I never heard from you, until you wrote to GT the following: > Buongiorno Alex, > > So does all this text you wrote on the Yak-list mean that we will see a set of those prop blades on a Yak-52 or a CJ-6 at either Sun-n-Fun or Oshkosh? I have tried to communicate with "Humberto" via email numerous times but something got lost in translation. > > It's not the Talk I'm interested in, It's your prop blades on one of our airplanes Walking the Talk, that will sell me on this prop. Quotes from your Engineering department, filtered through Marketing may prove difficult to translate into sales. > > Craig Payne > > After this email... sorry guys I blew out, why? because after all the tests done by Rick Volker in USA, and many other pilots worldwide, you are still wondering if these blades are good or not, and trying to convince us to send you a free set for you to test. Sorry you came too late, no test no more, if want them you will have to pay. > About the manufacturers that are doing good looking replacement propellers I tell you: sorry, GT is focused on making hi performance propellers not only good looking design, and safety is our first target on our product. > That's why GT takes the time to develop products - behind those blades there are years of testing, test after test. > The material GT use is one of the best available in world from the wood to the composite, no compromise, no cheap off corners. > GT doesn't make cheap propellers. If you are looking to save money and buy a less expensive propeller and, you like to be a Guinea pig for others then do what you please. > If you'd like to discuss business, I can be available any time, just call me. > Best regards, > Humberto > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328871#328871 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:47 AM PST US From: Cpayne Subject: Yak-List: More Customer service Well now, Humberto has set it all straight about the GT propeller blades. It seems my communication skills come up short. I never asked for a FREE set of blades to keep, merely to try while at one of the events where GT Propeller had a vendor presence. Sorry about all of this. Silly me, I thought I could help them. I also should have believed every word Humberto wrote to be about the blades; after all, he "guaranteed" improved performance. My apologies...now where did I put that spare $9000?? Small price for all the Customer Service I have received. Craig Payne ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:10 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Aerobatic Training From: "GreasySideUp" Dan, I just sent you a private message. I have a 50 out at Hampton Roads and would be happy to do a little flying with you. -josh greasysideup (at) hotmail dot com greasysideup.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328896#328896 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:29 AM PST US From: James Partington Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example I agree but it seems like you are yelling at the wrong guy, notice the repl y =0Ato..............=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom : A. Dennis Savarese =0ATo: yak-list@matronics .com=0ASent: Sat, January 29, 2011 6:36:58 AM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Dennis Savarese" =0A=0A=0ATake this dispute of f the Yak list.- I for one am not interested in =0Areading or seeing your personal emails.- If you have a disagreement with =0Asomeone, email or s peak to that person directly.=0ADennis=0A=0AOn 1/28/2011 8:27 PM, gtnorth w rote:=0A> -->- Yak-List message posted by: "gtnorth"=0A>=0A> Dear Mr. Craig Payne, since it looks like I'm the bad guy, and yo u like to go =0A>public, I will put public all the email you sent me with m y answer and let the =0A>other friends on the forum make their own conclusi on.=0A>=0A> Let's start:=0A>=0A> from--- Cpayne=0A> reply-to--- Cpayne=0A> to--- hdramisino@gmail.com=0A> date--- Sun, May 25, 2008 at 5:57 AM=0A> subject--- Yak prop=0A> mailed-by--- joima il.com=0A> hide details 5/25/08=0A> Sir;=0A>=0A> Is that new propeller for the Yak a complete unit? I'm really only interested =0A>in new blades that fit the old hub.=0A>=0A> Craig Payne=0A>=0A> Humberto's answer:=0A>=0A> Hum berto Dramisino=0A> to--- Cpayne=0A> cc--- GT PROPELLERS=0A> da te--- Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:32 AM=0A> subject--- Re: Yak prop =0A> mailed-by--- gmail.com=0A> hide details 5/25/08=0A> Dear Craig, =0A> No they fit the original hub, you only have to do after installation a =0A> dynamic balancing.=0A> Please contact me for any other information=0A> this is some information for you:=0A>=0A>- - - New GT2-V-25- blade s versus V-530 Vperod=0A>=0A>=0A> Type:- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Type : =0A> GT2-V-25- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - V-530=0A> Tractor- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tractor=0A> Two blade- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Two blade=0A> Hub applicati on : V530- - - - - - - - - - - - - - V530=0A> I nstallation :Screwed in to hub- - - - - - - - - Same=0A> Diameter : 2.50/98,4"- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2.40/94.5"=0A> Maximal blade width :245 mm/96"- - - - - - 240 mm/94.4=0A> Weight:About 9 kgs/18 Po. a blade- - - - - - - - - Same=0A> Construction:Wood/carbon- - - - - - - - - - - - - - all wood=0A> Leading- protection :Com posite- - - - - - - - - - - metal=0A> Blade design: S cimitar- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oar Shape=0A> Airfoils : GT design- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Unknown=0A> Inertia moment : 05 KG- MP SP.S- - - - - - - - - 05 KG-MP SP.S=0A> Application: 2 .50/98", 360 hp- - - - - - - - - - - - - 360 HP =0A> Looking : Modern sleek styled- - - - - - - - - - - Old style=0A> Availability : New production- - - - - - - - - - - - - Only used=0A> Maintenance : Spare blades /Oh- - - - - - - - - - Recon.old=0A>=0A>- - - - PERFORMAN CE AND ADVANTAGES .=0A>=0A> Thanks to greater diameter and modern airfoils adopted on GT blades,=0A> tested in various flying conditions for years, ma ny Yak 52 achieved=0A> outstanding performance compared to standard origina l- blades :=0A>=0A> - Greater static thrust.=0A> - Shorter take off dista nce,both grass or hard surfaces.=0A> - Higher cruise speed @ any power sett ing.=0A> - @ 70% of power setting an average of 15 / 18 KMH / 8 /10 KTS- faster.=0A> - Shorter landings thanks to greater propeller disc.=0A> - More energic feeling during all aerobatic manoeuvres.=0A> - Very good cooling i n hot places.=0A> - Reduced noise level both in the cockpit that out side. =0A> - Smoother engine running.=0A> - Lower fuel burning.=0A> - Reduced eng ine damage when prop ground impact compared to blade made=0A> of aluminium or all composite.=0A>=0A>=0A>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - FEATURES :=0A>=0A> Blades diameter can be arraged from 2.50/98",- up to 2.65/104".=0A> Standard configuration sc imitar tips shaped.=0A> Square shaped blasdes on request.=0A> Metal leading edge in progress.=0A> For unlimited aerobatic operatos using- 400/420 HP a greater metal=0A> blade retention is adopted.=0A> Standard finishing is high gloss White,Black,Grey.=0A> Custom paint on request.=0A> Carbon finish ing is now available on request .=0A> Worldwide delivery .=0A> Standard YAK 52 360 HP 2.50/98", diameter.=0A> Other aircrafts using GT2-V-25- blades :=0A> Yak 52 TW.=0A> Yak 50.=0A> Yak 55.=0A> Yak 18.=0A> Other tests are i n progress .=0A>=0A>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Comparation=0A>=0A>- - - - - GT2-V-25- price versus V5 30 and three blade.=0A> A reconditioned V-530 blades cost about 1.600,00 Eu ros with better=0A> looking. No performance increase.=0A> New GT blades wit h higher performance cost=0A> 5.500,00 Euros.=0A>=0A>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alternative :=0A> Three blade with modern looking and- high performance cost about : 13.000 =0AE uros=0A> Wich of these three options is your best solution ?=0A>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - IMPORTANT :=0A> GT-PRO PELLERS supply only M-14 blades own designed and produced,=0A> statically b alanced.=0A> GT-Propellers strongly advice to make new prop balance after =0A> installing the GT new blades.=0A> For every kind of M-14 application G T Propellers can advice you the=0A> best individual solution.=0A>=0A> Best regards,=0A> Humberto=0A>=0A> After this email I wrote another email to man y YAK pilots and this was the =0A>email: (please everybody notice the the d ate)=0A>=0A>=0A> From: Humberto Dramisino=0A> To: yakman@joimail.com=0A> Cc : GT PROPELLERS=0A> Sent: 2/4/2009 6:42:26 AM=0A> Subject: Humberto Dramisi no from GT Propeller=0A>=0A> Dear Sir,=0A> My name is Humberto Dramisino an d I'm a business partner with GT propeller in =0A>Italy.=0A>=0A> GT is an o ld manufacture of propeller for aircraft and they do propeller for =0A>warb ird like your CJ and many other.=0A>=0A> I will receive by the end of Febru ary one set of blade for your aircraft and =0A>I'm looking for somebody int erested to buy them, all the test they were already =0A>made in Italy and R omania, and the result were outstanding compared to the =0A>original one. =0A> The price for both propeller delivered to you is 8989.00, attached to this =0A>email you have the manual please have a look.=0A>=0A> Our propelle r are made in high densified wood, and are capable to use all the =0A>power of your engine not limited like some of our competitors.=0A>=0A> If you ha ve any other question, please don't hesitate to contact me.=0A> Best regard s,=0A> Humberto=0A>=0A> Mr. Craig answer was:=0A>=0A> rom--- yakman@j oimail.com=0A> reply-to--- yakman@joimail.com=0A> to--- Humbert o Dramisino=0A> date--- Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:06 PM=0A> subject-- - RE: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller=0A> hide details 2/4/09=0A> Hu mberto,=0A>=0A> Thank you for the offer. Have not I seen this propeller bla de replacement =0A>offerring for over 3 years now? At $8989 USD for blades only, I am afraid that =0A>the MTV 3-blade, with hub, becomes a viable opti on. At a price point of $4000 - =0A>$5000 USD, the blades could get some in itial market share, leading to later =0A>price increases. Perhaps if your c ompany could visit the major events like Sun =0A>'n Fun and Oshkosh with a flying demo version, you could start getting orders in =0A>the U.S.=0A>=0A> I could try your prop blades and show them off as I am located at Lakeland =0A>Florida at the Sun 'N Fun location and also fly at Oshkosh AirVenure e ach year.=0A>=0A> Could I also suggest that your Yak Manual could use some editing of the English =0A>translation? This is something I could do. I spe nt my career in the technical =0A>world and have authored many of the manua ls available on the RedStar Pilots =0A>Association website.=0A>=0A> Craig P ayne=0A>=0A> This is my answer:=0A>=0A> rom--- Humberto Dramisino=0A> to--- yakman@joimail.com=0A> cc--- GT PROPELLERS=0A> date- -- Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:27 PM=0A> subject--- Re: Humberto Dramis ino from GT Propeller=0A> mailed-by--- gmail.com=0A> hide details 2/4 /09=0A> Dear Craig,=0A> Thank you for your quick response, just to clarify, the price is for the two =0A>blade delivered (shipping included), you have to only remove the original and =0A>put the new one on it, same hub.=0A> T he two blade perform way better than the 3 blade from MT you can not even =0A>compare them, test were done in Italy.=0A> 3 blades look only nicer if you want, no more than that.=0A> with GT-Propeller we guarantee better clim b, better cruise at same rpm, shorter =0A>landing, low noise comparable to 3 blades, , not to mention better fuel economy.=0A> The foil design by GT I taly only for the Yak's type airplane is not a generic =0A>prop like MT.=0A > If you interested please let me know, we are looking for serious people t o do =0A>serious business, we are not looking for somebody to test because as I mentioned =0A>test were already done for the past 5 years, the product is final and outperform =0A>anything that today is on the market.=0A> I wi ll have soon the first set in north America please let me know if there is =0A>any interest on your side.=0A> We are so sure about our quality that in our policy is if you are not satisfy =0A>we will take the propeller back a nd you will be refund in full, this is how we =0A>now that our product is t he best, try to ask MT to do the same.=0A> Best regards,=0A> Humberto=0A> =0A> This is Mr. Craig answer:=0A>=0A> from--- yakman@joimail.com=0A> reply-to--- yakman@joimail.com=0A> to--- Humberto Dramisino=0A > date--- Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 6:45 AM=0A> subject--- Re: Humber to Dramisino from GT Propeller=0A> hide details 2/5/09=0A> Humberto,=0A>=0A > It's not about testing, it's about marketing. Many owners tend to discoun t =0A>claims made by manufacturers and trust what they hear from a fellow o wner and =0A>see flying. Even if your blades could perform as you state, no one is going to =0A>believe it without visible proof.=0A>=0A> The 3-blade "looks" better also, this is important to many owners. Regardless, =0A>you will find few sales at those prices. As for the existing 2-blade V530, =0A> Whirlwind Propeller will refurbish an existing set of blades with a composi te =0A>cover and nickel edge for around $2500 per pair, delivered. They loo k great and =0A>last a long time.=0A>=0A> My aircraft is a Nanchang CJ-6 wi th M-14P engine and large spinner, my speeds =0A>are much higher than the Y aks. Could your propeller perform as well on this kind =0A>of airframe? Eng ineering claims will not matter as much as real comparisons by =0A>private owners.=0A>=0A> Craig Payne=0A>=0A> This is my last email before he stated "something got lost in the translation:=0A>=0A> from--- Humberto Dram isino=0A> to--- yakman@joimail.com=0A> cc--- GT PROPELLERS=0A> date--- Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:45 AM=0A> subject--- Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller=0A> mailed-by--- gmail.com=0A> hide deta ils 2/5/09=0A> Dear Craig,=0A> Like I mentioned to you I'm only looking som ebody serious to sell my first set =0A>of blade, and it amazed me how in th is field owners of airplane are only =0A>looking- for the cheapest thing in the market to mounted on one of the most =0A>important part of the airpl ane, and they don't look for more tangible =0A>improvement, not to mention safety.=0A> I see people repair cracked wood propeller on these airplanes b y adding a piece =0A>of wood in the crack with glue, sand it and flying it, when in Italy we not even =0A>use them to hang it on the wall.=0A>=0A> I a lso notice that often some pilot spend many thousand of dollar in useless =0A>instrument when the only important thing that hold them in the air they want it =0A>as cheap as possible, well I don't want to generalize and that 's way I know i =0A>will find somebody that understand all this.=0A> About the speed of your airplane yes the propeller will do the perfect job on =0A >yours as well, if your airplane is more sleek in the air it will use more pitch =0A>and the blade is design for that.=0A>=0A> I will keep you posted, =0A> Best regards,=0A> Humberto Dramisino=0A>=0A> Since than I never heard from you, until you wrote to GT the following:=0A> Buongiorno Alex,=0A>=0A> So does all this text you wrote on the Yak-list mean that we will see a se t of =0A>those prop blades on a Yak-52 or a CJ-6 at either Sun-n-Fun or Osh kosh? I have =0A>tried to communicate with "Humberto" via email numerous ti mes but something got =0A>lost in translation.=0A>=0A> It's not the Talk I' m interested in, It's your prop blades on one of our =0A>airplanes Walking the Talk, that will sell me on this prop. Quotes from your =0A>Engineering department, filtered through Marketing may prove difficult to =0A>translate into sales.=0A>=0A> Craig Payne=0A>=0A> After this email... sorry guys I b lew out, why? because after all the tests =0A>done by Rick Volker in USA, a nd many other pilots worldwide, you are still =0A>wondering if these blades are good or not, and trying to convince us to send you =0A>a free set for you to test. Sorry you came too late, no test no more, if want =0A>them you will have to pay.=0A> About the manufacturers that are doing good looking replacement propellers I =0A>tell you: sorry, GT is focused on making hi pe rformance propellers not only good =0A>looking design, and safety is our fi rst target on our product.=0A> That's why GT takes the time to develop prod ucts - behind those blades there =0A>are years of testing, test after test. =0A> The material GT use is one of the best available in world from the woo d to the =0A>composite, no compromise, no cheap off corners.=0A> GT doesn't make cheap propellers. If you are looking to save money and buy a =0A>less expensive propeller and, you like to be a Guinea pig for others then do =0A>what you please.=0A> If you'd like to discuss business, I can be availa ble any time, just call me.=0A> Best regards,=0A> Humberto=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A> Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A> http://forums.matronics.com/viewt opic.php?p=328871#328871=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A ============ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:21 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example PLEASE - BOTH of you take this off the Yak list. Dennis On 1/29/2011 6:48 AM, James Partington wrote: > I agree but it seems like you are yelling at the wrong guy, notice the > reply to.............. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* A. Dennis Savarese > *To:* yak-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sat, January 29, 2011 6:36:58 AM > *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example > > > > > Take this dispute off the Yak list. I for one am not interested in > reading or seeing your personal emails. If you have a disagreement with > someone, email or speak to that person directly. > Dennis > > On 1/28/2011 8:27 PM, gtnorth wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mr. Craig Payne, since it looks like I'm the bad guy, and you > like to go public, I will put public all the email you sent me with my > answer and let the other friends on the forum make their own conclusion. > > > > Let's start: > > > > from Cpayne > > reply-to Cpayne > > to hdramisino@gmail.com > > date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 5:57 AM > > subject Yak prop > > mailed-by joimail.com > > hide details 5/25/08 > > Sir; > > > > Is that new propeller for the Yak a complete unit? I'm really only > interested in new blades that fit the old hub. > > > > Craig Payne > > > > Humberto's answer: > > > > Humberto Dramisino > > to Cpayne > > cc GT PROPELLERS > > date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:32 AM > > subject Re: Yak prop > > mailed-by gmail.com > > hide details 5/25/08 > > Dear Craig, > > No they fit the original hub, you only have to do after installation a > > dynamic balancing. > > Please contact me for any other information > > this is some information for you: > > > > New GT2-V-25 blades versus V-530 Vperod > > > > > > Type: Type : > > GT2-V-25 V-530 > > Tractor Tractor > > Two blade Two blade > > Hub application : V530 V530 > > Installation :Screwed in to hub Same > > Diameter : 2.50/98,4" 2.40/94.5" > > Maximal blade width :245 mm/96" 240 mm/94.4 > > Weight:About 9 kgs/18 Po. a blade Same > > Construction:Wood/carbon all wood > > Leading protection :Composite metal > > Blade design: Scimitar Oar Shape > > Airfoils : GT design Unknown > > Inertia moment : 05 KG-MP SP.S 05 KG-MP SP.S > > Application: 2.50/98", 360 hp 360 HP > > Looking : Modern sleek styled Old style > > Availability : New production Only used > > Maintenance : Spare blades /Oh Recon.old > > > > PERFORMANCE AND ADVANTAGES . > > > > Thanks to greater diameter and modern airfoils adopted on GT blades, > > tested in various flying conditions for years, many Yak 52 achieved > > outstanding performance compared to standard original blades : > > > > - Greater static thrust. > > - Shorter take off distance,both grass or hard surfaces. > > - Higher cruise speed @ any power setting. > > - @ 70% of power setting an average of 15 / 18 KMH / 8 /10 KTS faster. > > - Shorter landings thanks to greater propeller disc. > > - More energic feeling during all aerobatic manoeuvres. > > - Very good cooling in hot places. > > - Reduced noise level both in the cockpit that out side. > > - Smoother engine running. > > - Lower fuel burning. > > - Reduced engine damage when prop ground impact compared to blade made > > of aluminium or all composite. > > > > > > FEATURES : > > > > Blades diameter can be arraged from 2.50/98", up to 2.65/104". > > Standard configuration scimitar tips shaped. > > Square shaped blasdes on request. > > Metal leading edge in progress. > > For unlimited aerobatic operatos using 400/420 HP a greater metal > > blade retention is adopted. > > Standard finishing is high gloss White,Black,Grey. > > Custom paint on request. > > Carbon finishing is now available on request . > > Worldwide delivery . > > Standard YAK 52 360 HP 2.50/98", diameter. > > Other aircrafts using GT2-V-25 blades : > > Yak 52 TW. > > Yak 50. > > Yak 55. > > Yak 18. > > Other tests are in progress . > > > > Comparation > > > > GT2-V-25 price versus V530 and three blade. > > A reconditioned V-530 blades cost about 1.600,00 Euros with better > > looking. No performance increase. > > New GT blades with higher performance cost > > 5.500,00 Euros. > > > > Alternative : > > Three blade with modern looking and high performance cost about : > 13.000 Euros > > Wich of these three options is your best solution ? > > IMPORTANT : > > GT-PROPELLERS supply only M-14 blades own designed and produced, > > statically balanced. > > GT-Propellers strongly advice to make new prop balance after > > installing the GT new blades. > > For every kind of M-14 application GT Propellers can advice you the > > best individual solution. > > > > Best regards, > > Humberto > > > > After this email I wrote another email to many YAK pilots and this > was the email: (please everybody notice the the date) > > > > > > From: Humberto Dramisino > > To: yakman@joimail.com > > Cc: GT PROPELLERS > > Sent: 2/4/2009 6:42:26 AM > > Subject: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > > > > Dear Sir, > > My name is Humberto Dramisino and I'm a business partner with GT > propeller in Italy. > > > > GT is an old manufacture of propeller for aircraft and they do > propeller for warbird like your CJ and many other. > > > > I will receive by the end of February one set of blade for your > aircraft and I'm looking for somebody interested to buy them, all the > test they were already made in Italy and Romania, and the result were > outstanding compared to the original one. > > The price for both propeller delivered to you is 8989.00, attached to > this email you have the manual please have a look. > > > > Our propeller are made in high densified wood, and are capable to use > all the power of your engine not limited like some of our competitors. > > > > If you have any other question, please don't hesitate to contact me. > > Best regards, > > Humberto > > > > Mr. Craig answer was: > > > > rom yakman@joimail.com > > reply-to yakman@joimail.com > > to Humberto Dramisino > > date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:06 PM > > subject RE: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > > hide details 2/4/09 > > Humberto, > > > > Thank you for the offer. Have not I seen this propeller blade > replacement offerring for over 3 years now? At $8989 USD for blades > only, I am afraid that the MTV 3-blade, with hub, becomes a viable > option. At a price point of $4000 - $5000 USD, the blades could get some > initial market share, leading to later price increases. Perhaps if your > company could visit the major events like Sun 'n Fun and Oshkosh with a > flying demo version, you could start getting orders in the U.S. > > > > I could try your prop blades and show them off as I am located at > Lakeland Florida at the Sun 'N Fun location and also fly at Oshkosh > AirVenure each year. > > > > Could I also suggest that your Yak Manual could use some editing of > the English translation? This is something I could do. I spent my career > in the technical world and have authored many of the manuals available > on the RedStar Pilots Association website. > > > > Craig Payne > > > > This is my answer: > > > > rom Humberto Dramisino > > to yakman@joimail.com > > cc GT PROPELLERS > > date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:27 PM > > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > > mailed-by gmail.com > > hide details 2/4/09 > > Dear Craig, > > Thank you for your quick response, just to clarify, the price is for > the two blade delivered (shipping included), you have to only remove the > original and put the new one on it, same hub. > > The two blade perform way better than the 3 blade from MT you can not > even compare them, test were done in Italy. > > 3 blades look only nicer if you want, no more than that. > > with GT-Propeller we guarantee better climb, better cruise at same > rpm, shorter landing, low noise comparable to 3 blades, , not to mention > better fuel economy. > > The foil design by GT Italy only for the Yak's type airplane is not a > generic prop like MT. > > If you interested please let me know, we are looking for serious > people to do serious business, we are not looking for somebody to test > because as I mentioned test were already done for the past 5 years, the > product is final and outperform anything that today is on the market. > > I will have soon the first set in north America please let me know if > there is any interest on your side. > > We are so sure about our quality that in our policy is if you are not > satisfy we will take the propeller back and you will be refund in full, > this is how we now that our product is the best, try to ask MT to do the > same. > > Best regards, > > Humberto > > > > This is Mr. Craig answer: > > > > from yakman@joimail.com > > reply-to yakman@joimail.com > > to Humberto Dramisino > > date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 6:45 AM > > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > > hide details 2/5/09 > > Humberto, > > > > It's not about testing, it's about marketing. Many owners tend to > discount claims made by manufacturers and trust what they hear from a > fellow owner and see flying. Even if your blades could perform as you > state, no one is going to believe it without visible proof. > > > > The 3-blade "looks" better also, this is important to many owners. > Regardless, you will find few sales at those prices. As for the existing > 2-blade V530, Whirlwind Propeller will refurbish an existing set of > blades with a composite cover and nickel edge for around $2500 per pair, > delivered. They look great and last a long time. > > > > My aircraft is a Nanchang CJ-6 with M-14P engine and large spinner, > my speeds are much higher than the Yaks. Could your propeller perform as > well on this kind of airframe? Engineering claims will not matter as > much as real comparisons by private owners. > > > > Craig Payne > > > > This is my last email before he stated "something got lost in the > translation: > > > > from Humberto Dramisino > > to yakman@joimail.com > > cc GT PROPELLERS > > date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:45 AM > > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > > mailed-by gmail.com > > hide details 2/5/09 > > Dear Craig, > > Like I mentioned to you I'm only looking somebody serious to sell my > first set of blade, and it amazed me how in this field owners of > airplane are only looking for the cheapest thing in the market to > mounted on one of the most important part of the airplane, and they > don't look for more tangible improvement, not to mention safety. > > I see people repair cracked wood propeller on these airplanes by > adding a piece of wood in the crack with glue, sand it and flying it, > when in Italy we not even use them to hang it on the wall. > > > > I also notice that often some pilot spend many thousand of dollar in > useless instrument when the only important thing that hold them in the > air they want it as cheap as possible, well I don't want to generalize > and that's way I know i will find somebody that understand all this. > > About the speed of your airplane yes the propeller will do the > perfect job on yours as well, if your airplane is more sleek in the air > it will use more pitch and the blade is design for that. > > > > I will keep you posted, > > Best regards, > > Humberto Dramisino > > > > Since than I never heard from you, until you wrote to GT the following: > > Buongiorno Alex, > > > > So does all this text you wrote on the Yak-list mean that we will see > a set of those prop blades on a Yak-52 or a CJ-6 at either Sun-n-Fun or > Oshkosh? I have tried to communicate with "Humberto" via email numerous > times but something got lost in translation. > > > > It's not the Talk I'm interested in, It's your prop blades on one of > our airplanes Walking the Talk, that will sell me on this prop. Quotes > from your Engineering department, filtered through Marketing may prove > difficult to translate into sales. > > > > Craig Payne > > > > After this email... sorry guys I blew out, why? because after all the > tests done by Rick Volker in USA, and many other pilots worldwide, you > are still wondering if these blades are good or not, and trying to > convince us to send you a free set for you to test. Sorry you came too > late, no test no more, if want them you will have to pay. > > About the manufacturers that are doing good looking replacement > propellers I tell you: sorry, GT is focused on making hi performance > propellers not only good looking design, and safety is our first target > on our product. > > That's why GT takes the time to develop products - behind those > blades there are years of testing, test after test. > > The material GT use is one of the best available in world from the > wood to the composite, no compromise, no cheap off corners. > > GT doesn't make cheap propellers. If you are looking to save money > and buy a less expensive propeller and, you like to be a Guinea pig for > others then do what you please. > > If you'd like to discuss business, I can be available any time, just > call me. > > Best regards, > > Humberto > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328871#328871 > > > > > > > > > > > > > ><======================= > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:09 AM PST US From: Cpayne Subject: Yak-List: Re:canopy replacement I used a heavy vinyl tape to line the canopy glass where it touches the frame, along with some felt at the sides aft where it touches the fuselage. Craig Payne ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:58 AM PST US From: Walter Lannon Subject: Re: Yak-List: More Customer service Enough already: I whoeheartedly agree with Jan and Dennis. Get this stuff off the list!!! Walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cpayne" Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 4:42 AM Subject: Yak-List: More Customer service > > Well now, Humberto has set it all straight about the GT propeller blades. > It seems my communication skills come up short. I never asked for a FREE > set of blades to keep, merely to try while at one of the events where GT > Propeller had a vendor presence. > > Sorry about all of this. Silly me, I thought I could help them. I also > should have believed every word Humberto wrote to be about the blades; > after all, he "guaranteed" improved performance. My apologies...now where > did I put that spare $9000?? Small price for all the Customer Service I > have received. > > Craig Payne > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:38 PM PST US From: Didier Blouzard Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example Please ..... out of the list !!! Didier 2011/1/29 gtnorth > > Dear Mr. Craig Payne, since it looks like I'm the bad guy, and you like to > go public, I will put public all the email you sent me with my answer and > let the other friends on the forum make their own conclusion. > > Let's start: > > from Cpayne > reply-to Cpayne > to hdramisino@gmail.com > date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 5:57 AM > subject Yak prop > mailed-by joimail.com > hide details 5/25/08 > Sir; > > Is that new propeller for the Yak a complete unit? I'm really only > interested in new blades that fit the old hub. > > Craig Payne > > Humberto's answer: > > Humberto Dramisino > to Cpayne > cc GT PROPELLERS > date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:32 AM > subject Re: Yak prop > mailed-by gmail.com > hide details 5/25/08 > Dear Craig, > No they fit the original hub, you only have to do after installation a > dynamic balancing. > Please contact me for any other information > this is some information for you: > > New GT2-V-25 blades versus V-530 Vperod > > > Type: Type : > GT2-V-25 V-530 > Tractor Tractor > Two blade Two blade > Hub application : V530 V530 > Installation :Screwed in to hub Same > Diameter : 2.50/98,4" 2.40/94.5" > Maximal blade width :245 mm/96" 240 mm/94.4 > Weight:About 9 kgs/18 Po. a blade Same > Construction:Wood/carbon all wood > Leading protection :Composite metal > Blade design: Scimitar Oar Shape > Airfoils : GT design Unknown > Inertia moment : 05 KG-MP SP.S 05 KG-MP SP.S > Application: 2.50/98", 360 hp 360 HP > Looking : Modern sleek styled Old style > Availability : New production Only used > Maintenance : Spare blades /Oh Recon.old > > PERFORMANCE AND ADVANTAGES . > > Thanks to greater diameter and modern airfoils adopted on GT blades, > tested in various flying conditions for years, many Yak 52 achieved > outstanding performance compared to standard original blades : > > - Greater static thrust. > - Shorter take off distance,both grass or hard surfaces. > - Higher cruise speed @ any power setting. > - @ 70% of power setting an average of 15 / 18 KMH / 8 /10 KTS faster. > - Shorter landings thanks to greater propeller disc. > - More energic feeling during all aerobatic manoeuvres. > - Very good cooling in hot places. > - Reduced noise level both in the cockpit that out side. > - Smoother engine running. > - Lower fuel burning. > - Reduced engine damage when prop ground impact compared to blade made > of aluminium or all composite. > > > FEATURES : > > Blades diameter can be arraged from 2.50/98", up to 2.65/104". > Standard configuration scimitar tips shaped. > Square shaped blasdes on request. > Metal leading edge in progress. > For unlimited aerobatic operatos using 400/420 HP a greater metal > blade retention is adopted. > Standard finishing is high gloss White,Black,Grey. > Custom paint on request. > Carbon finishing is now available on request . > Worldwide delivery . > Standard YAK 52 360 HP 2.50/98", diameter. > Other aircrafts using GT2-V-25 blades : > Yak 52 TW. > Yak 50. > Yak 55. > Yak 18. > Other tests are in progress . > > Comparation > > GT2-V-25 price versus V530 and three blade. > A reconditioned V-530 blades cost about 1.600,00 Euros with better > looking. No performance increase. > New GT blades with higher performance cost > 5.500,00 Euros. > > Alternative : > Three blade with modern looking and high performance cost about : 13.000 > Euros > Wich of these three options is your best solution ? > IMPORTANT : > GT-PROPELLERS supply only M-14 blades own designed and produced, > statically balanced. > GT-Propellers strongly advice to make new prop balance after > installing the GT new blades. > For every kind of M-14 application GT Propellers can advice you the > best individual solution. > > Best regards, > Humberto > > After this email I wrote another email to many YAK pilots and this was the > email: (please everybody notice the the date) > > > From: Humberto Dramisino > To: yakman@joimail.com > Cc: GT PROPELLERS > Sent: 2/4/2009 6:42:26 AM > Subject: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > > Dear Sir, > My name is Humberto Dramisino and I'm a business partner with GT propeller > in Italy. > > GT is an old manufacture of propeller for aircraft and they do propeller > for warbird like your CJ and many other. > > I will receive by the end of February one set of blade for your aircraft > and I'm looking for somebody interested to buy them, all the test they were > already made in Italy and Romania, and the result were outstanding compared > to the original one. > The price for both propeller delivered to you is 8989.00, attached to this > email you have the manual please have a look. > > Our propeller are made in high densified wood, and are capable to use all > the power of your engine not limited like some of our competitors. > > If you have any other question, please don't hesitate to contact me. > Best regards, > Humberto > > Mr. Craig answer was: > > rom yakman@joimail.com > reply-to yakman@joimail.com > to Humberto Dramisino > date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:06 PM > subject RE: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > hide details 2/4/09 > Humberto, > > Thank you for the offer. Have not I seen this propeller blade replacement > offerring for over 3 years now? At $8989 USD for blades only, I am afraid > that the MTV 3-blade, with hub, becomes a viable option. At a price point of > $4000 - $5000 USD, the blades could get some initial market share, leading > to later price increases. Perhaps if your company could visit the major > events like Sun 'n Fun and Oshkosh with a flying demo version, you could > start getting orders in the U.S. > > I could try your prop blades and show them off as I am located at Lakeland > Florida at the Sun 'N Fun location and also fly at Oshkosh AirVenure each > year. > > Could I also suggest that your Yak Manual could use some editing of the > English translation? This is something I could do. I spent my career in the > technical world and have authored many of the manuals available on the > RedStar Pilots Association website. > > Craig Payne > > This is my answer: > > rom Humberto Dramisino > to yakman@joimail.com > cc GT PROPELLERS > date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:27 PM > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > mailed-by gmail.com > hide details 2/4/09 > Dear Craig, > Thank you for your quick response, just to clarify, the price is for the > two blade delivered (shipping included), you have to only remove the > original and put the new one on it, same hub. > The two blade perform way better than the 3 blade from MT you can not even > compare them, test were done in Italy. > 3 blades look only nicer if you want, no more than that. > with GT-Propeller we guarantee better climb, better cruise at same rpm, > shorter landing, low noise comparable to 3 blades, , not to mention better > fuel economy. > The foil design by GT Italy only for the Yak's type airplane is not a > generic prop like MT. > If you interested please let me know, we are looking for serious people to > do serious business, we are not looking for somebody to test because as I > mentioned test were already done for the past 5 years, the product is final > and outperform anything that today is on the market. > I will have soon the first set in north America please let me know if there > is any interest on your side. > We are so sure about our quality that in our policy is if you are not > satisfy we will take the propeller back and you will be refund in full, this > is how we now that our product is the best, try to ask MT to do the same. > Best regards, > Humberto > > This is Mr. Craig answer: > > from yakman@joimail.com > reply-to yakman@joimail.com > to Humberto Dramisino > date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 6:45 AM > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > hide details 2/5/09 > Humberto, > > It's not about testing, it's about marketing. Many owners tend to discount > claims made by manufacturers and trust what they hear from a fellow owner > and see flying. Even if your blades could perform as you state, no one is > going to believe it without visible proof. > > The 3-blade "looks" better also, this is important to many owners. > Regardless, you will find few sales at those prices. As for the existing > 2-blade V530, Whirlwind Propeller will refurbish an existing set of blades > with a composite cover and nickel edge for around $2500 per pair, delivered. > They look great and last a long time. > > My aircraft is a Nanchang CJ-6 with M-14P engine and large spinner, my > speeds are much higher than the Yaks. Could your propeller perform as well > on this kind of airframe? Engineering claims will not matter as much as real > comparisons by private owners. > > Craig Payne > > This is my last email before he stated "something got lost in the > translation: > > from Humberto Dramisino > to yakman@joimail.com > cc GT PROPELLERS > date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:45 AM > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > mailed-by gmail.com > hide details 2/5/09 > Dear Craig, > Like I mentioned to you I'm only looking somebody serious to sell my first > set of blade, and it amazed me how in this field owners of airplane are only > looking for the cheapest thing in the market to mounted on one of the most > important part of the airplane, and they don't look for more tangible > improvement, not to mention safety. > I see people repair cracked wood propeller on these airplanes by adding a > piece of wood in the crack with glue, sand it and flying it, when in Italy > we not even use them to hang it on the wall. > > I also notice that often some pilot spend many thousand of dollar in > useless instrument when the only important thing that hold them in the air > they want it as cheap as possible, well I don't want to generalize and > that's way I know i will find somebody that understand all this. > About the speed of your airplane yes the propeller will do the perfect job > on yours as well, if your airplane is more sleek in the air it will use more > pitch and the blade is design for that. > > I will keep you posted, > Best regards, > Humberto Dramisino > > Since than I never heard from you, until you wrote to GT the following: > Buongiorno Alex, > > So does all this text you wrote on the Yak-list mean that we will see a set > of those prop blades on a Yak-52 or a CJ-6 at either Sun-n-Fun or Oshkosh? I > have tried to communicate with "Humberto" via email numerous times but > something got lost in translation. > > It's not the Talk I'm interested in, It's your prop blades on one of our > airplanes Walking the Talk, that will sell me on this prop. Quotes from your > Engineering department, filtered through Marketing may prove difficult to > translate into sales. > > Craig Payne > > After this email... sorry guys I blew out, why? because after all the tests > done by Rick Volker in USA, and many other pilots worldwide, you are still > wondering if these blades are good or not, and trying to convince us to send > you a free set for you to test. Sorry you came too late, no test no more, if > want them you will have to pay. > About the manufacturers that are doing good looking replacement propellers > I tell you: sorry, GT is focused on making hi performance propellers not > only good looking design, and safety is our first target on our product. > That's why GT takes the time to develop products - behind those blades > there are years of testing, test after test. > The material GT use is one of the best available in world from the wood to > the composite, no compromise, no cheap off corners. > GT doesn't make cheap propellers. If you are looking to save money and buy > a less expensive propeller and, you like to be a Guinea pig for others then > do what you please. > If you'd like to discuss business, I can be available any time, just call > me. > Best regards, > Humberto > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328871#328871 > > -- Didier BLOUZARD didier.blouzard@gmail.com 0624243672 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:15 PM PST US From: "Chris Wise" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example G'Day All, I have to agree with Dennis. I enjoy reading the articles posted but this is now just becoming a drag and it should be now left alone. Enough has been said and if some of you wish to continue and turn this in mud slinging match, then please do so off list. The points have been made. At the same time, it is probably justified for someone to defend themselves after a member has posted derogatory remarks, albeit that member possibly trying to do the right thing by all of us in alerting us to what he perceives to be a problem. Now in essence, that's good, as it is good that the members alert us to what they believe to be a problem that could impact on all of our wellbeing and interest's. Thanks Craig and thanks Humberto. Cheers, Chris. -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese Sent: Saturday, 29 January 2011 11:07 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Subject: Customer Service Example Take this dispute off the Yak list. I for one am not interested in reading or seeing your personal emails. If you have a disagreement with someone, email or speak to that person directly. Dennis On 1/28/2011 8:27 PM, gtnorth wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "gtnorth" > > Dear Mr. Craig Payne, since it looks like I'm the bad guy, and you like to go public, I will put public all the email you sent me with my answer and let the other friends on the forum make their own conclusion. > > Let's start: > > from Cpayne > reply-to Cpayne > to hdramisino@gmail.com > date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 5:57 AM > subject Yak prop > mailed-by joimail.com > hide details 5/25/08 > Sir; > > Is that new propeller for the Yak a complete unit? I'm really only interested in new blades that fit the old hub. > > Craig Payne > > Humberto's answer: > > Humberto Dramisino > to Cpayne > cc GT PROPELLERS > date Sun, May 25, 2008 at 9:32 AM > subject Re: Yak prop > mailed-by gmail.com > hide details 5/25/08 > Dear Craig, > No they fit the original hub, you only have to do after installation a > dynamic balancing. > Please contact me for any other information > this is some information for you: > > New GT2-V-25 blades versus V-530 Vperod > > > Type: Type : > GT2-V-25 V-530 > Tractor Tractor > Two blade Two blade > Hub application : V530 V530 > Installation :Screwed in to hub Same > Diameter : 2.50/98,4" 2.40/94.5" > Maximal blade width :245 mm/96" 240 mm/94.4 > Weight:About 9 kgs/18 Po. a blade Same > Construction:Wood/carbon all wood > Leading protection :Composite metal > Blade design: Scimitar Oar Shape > Airfoils : GT design Unknown > Inertia moment : 05 KG-MP SP.S 05 KG-MP SP.S > Application: 2.50/98", 360 hp 360 HP > Looking : Modern sleek styled Old style > Availability : New production Only used > Maintenance : Spare blades /Oh Recon.old > > PERFORMANCE AND ADVANTAGES . > > Thanks to greater diameter and modern airfoils adopted on GT blades, > tested in various flying conditions for years, many Yak 52 achieved > outstanding performance compared to standard original blades : > > - Greater static thrust. > - Shorter take off distance,both grass or hard surfaces. > - Higher cruise speed @ any power setting. > - @ 70% of power setting an average of 15 / 18 KMH / 8 /10 KTS faster. > - Shorter landings thanks to greater propeller disc. > - More energic feeling during all aerobatic manoeuvres. > - Very good cooling in hot places. > - Reduced noise level both in the cockpit that out side. > - Smoother engine running. > - Lower fuel burning. > - Reduced engine damage when prop ground impact compared to blade made > of aluminium or all composite. > > > FEATURES : > > Blades diameter can be arraged from 2.50/98", up to 2.65/104". > Standard configuration scimitar tips shaped. > Square shaped blasdes on request. > Metal leading edge in progress. > For unlimited aerobatic operatos using 400/420 HP a greater metal > blade retention is adopted. > Standard finishing is high gloss White,Black,Grey. > Custom paint on request. > Carbon finishing is now available on request . > Worldwide delivery . > Standard YAK 52 360 HP 2.50/98", diameter. > Other aircrafts using GT2-V-25 blades : > Yak 52 TW. > Yak 50. > Yak 55. > Yak 18. > Other tests are in progress . > > Comparation > > GT2-V-25 price versus V530 and three blade. > A reconditioned V-530 blades cost about 1.600,00 Euros with better > looking. No performance increase. > New GT blades with higher performance cost > 5.500,00 Euros. > > Alternative : > Three blade with modern looking and high performance cost about : 13.000 Euros > Wich of these three options is your best solution ? > IMPORTANT : > GT-PROPELLERS supply only M-14 blades own designed and produced, > statically balanced. > GT-Propellers strongly advice to make new prop balance after > installing the GT new blades. > For every kind of M-14 application GT Propellers can advice you the > best individual solution. > > Best regards, > Humberto > > After this email I wrote another email to many YAK pilots and this was the email: (please everybody notice the the date) > > > From: Humberto Dramisino > To: yakman@joimail.com > Cc: GT PROPELLERS > Sent: 2/4/2009 6:42:26 AM > Subject: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > > Dear Sir, > My name is Humberto Dramisino and I'm a business partner with GT propeller in Italy. > > GT is an old manufacture of propeller for aircraft and they do propeller for warbird like your CJ and many other. > > I will receive by the end of February one set of blade for your aircraft and I'm looking for somebody interested to buy them, all the test they were already made in Italy and Romania, and the result were outstanding compared to the original one. > The price for both propeller delivered to you is 8989.00, attached to this email you have the manual please have a look. > > Our propeller are made in high densified wood, and are capable to use all the power of your engine not limited like some of our competitors. > > If you have any other question, please don't hesitate to contact me. > Best regards, > Humberto > > Mr. Craig answer was: > > rom yakman@joimail.com > reply-to yakman@joimail.com > to Humberto Dramisino > date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:06 PM > subject RE: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > hide details 2/4/09 > Humberto, > > Thank you for the offer. Have not I seen this propeller blade replacement offerring for over 3 years now? At $8989 USD for blades only, I am afraid that the MTV 3-blade, with hub, becomes a viable option. At a price point of $4000 - $5000 USD, the blades could get some initial market share, leading to later price increases. Perhaps if your company could visit the major events like Sun 'n Fun and Oshkosh with a flying demo version, you could start getting orders in the U.S. > > I could try your prop blades and show them off as I am located at Lakeland Florida at the Sun 'N Fun location and also fly at Oshkosh AirVenure each year. > > Could I also suggest that your Yak Manual could use some editing of the English translation? This is something I could do. I spent my career in the technical world and have authored many of the manuals available on the RedStar Pilots Association website. > > Craig Payne > > This is my answer: > > rom Humberto Dramisino > to yakman@joimail.com > cc GT PROPELLERS > date Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 8:27 PM > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > mailed-by gmail.com > hide details 2/4/09 > Dear Craig, > Thank you for your quick response, just to clarify, the price is for the two blade delivered (shipping included), you have to only remove the original and put the new one on it, same hub. > The two blade perform way better than the 3 blade from MT you can not even compare them, test were done in Italy. > 3 blades look only nicer if you want, no more than that. > with GT-Propeller we guarantee better climb, better cruise at same rpm, shorter landing, low noise comparable to 3 blades, , not to mention better fuel economy. > The foil design by GT Italy only for the Yak's type airplane is not a generic prop like MT. > If you interested please let me know, we are looking for serious people to do serious business, we are not looking for somebody to test because as I mentioned test were already done for the past 5 years, the product is final and outperform anything that today is on the market. > I will have soon the first set in north America please let me know if there is any interest on your side. > We are so sure about our quality that in our policy is if you are not satisfy we will take the propeller back and you will be refund in full, this is how we now that our product is the best, try to ask MT to do the same. > Best regards, > Humberto > > This is Mr. Craig answer: > > from yakman@joimail.com > reply-to yakman@joimail.com > to Humberto Dramisino > date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 6:45 AM > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > hide details 2/5/09 > Humberto, > > It's not about testing, it's about marketing. Many owners tend to discount claims made by manufacturers and trust what they hear from a fellow owner and see flying. Even if your blades could perform as you state, no one is going to believe it without visible proof. > > The 3-blade "looks" better also, this is important to many owners. Regardless, you will find few sales at those prices. As for the existing 2-blade V530, Whirlwind Propeller will refurbish an existing set of blades with a composite cover and nickel edge for around $2500 per pair, delivered. They look great and last a long time. > > My aircraft is a Nanchang CJ-6 with M-14P engine and large spinner, my speeds are much higher than the Yaks. Could your propeller perform as well on this kind of airframe? Engineering claims will not matter as much as real comparisons by private owners. > > Craig Payne > > This is my last email before he stated "something got lost in the translation: > > from Humberto Dramisino > to yakman@joimail.com > cc GT PROPELLERS > date Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 7:45 AM > subject Re: Humberto Dramisino from GT Propeller > mailed-by gmail.com > hide details 2/5/09 > Dear Craig, > Like I mentioned to you I'm only looking somebody serious to sell my first set of blade, and it amazed me how in this field owners of airplane are only looking for the cheapest thing in the market to mounted on one of the most important part of the airplane, and they don't look for more tangible improvement, not to mention safety. > I see people repair cracked wood propeller on these airplanes by adding a piece of wood in the crack with glue, sand it and flying it, when in Italy we not even use them to hang it on the wall. > > I also notice that often some pilot spend many thousand of dollar in useless instrument when the only important thing that hold them in the air they want it as cheap as possible, well I don't want to generalize and that's way I know i will find somebody that understand all this. > About the speed of your airplane yes the propeller will do the perfect job on yours as well, if your airplane is more sleek in the air it will use more pitch and the blade is design for that. > > I will keep you posted, > Best regards, > Humberto Dramisino > > Since than I never heard from you, until you wrote to GT the following: > Buongiorno Alex, > > So does all this text you wrote on the Yak-list mean that we will see a set of those prop blades on a Yak-52 or a CJ-6 at either Sun-n-Fun or Oshkosh? I have tried to communicate with "Humberto" via email numerous times but something got lost in translation. > > It's not the Talk I'm interested in, It's your prop blades on one of our airplanes Walking the Talk, that will sell me on this prop. Quotes from your Engineering department, filtered through Marketing may prove difficult to translate into sales. > > Craig Payne > > After this email... sorry guys I blew out, why? because after all the tests done by Rick Volker in USA, and many other pilots worldwide, you are still wondering if these blades are good or not, and trying to convince us to send you a free set for you to test. Sorry you came too late, no test no more, if want them you will have to pay. > About the manufacturers that are doing good looking replacement propellers I tell you: sorry, GT is focused on making hi performance propellers not only good looking design, and safety is our first target on our product. > That's why GT takes the time to develop products - behind those blades there are years of testing, test after test. > The material GT use is one of the best available in world from the wood to the composite, no compromise, no cheap off corners. > GT doesn't make cheap propellers. If you are looking to save money and buy a less expensive propeller and, you like to be a Guinea pig for others then do what you please. > If you'd like to discuss business, I can be available any time, just call me. > Best regards, > Humberto > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=328871#328871 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.