Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:31 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
2. 10:42 AM - Re: B&C Alternator (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
3. 12:13 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Eric Wobschall)
4. 12:38 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Jan Mevis)
5. 01:40 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
6. 01:43 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
7. 02:35 PM - Re: B&C Alternator (Eric Wobschall)
Message 1
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Adrian,
Short answer:
Yes it will work fine.
Long answer:
I totally concur with Dennis's recommendation here and would advise the
B&C SK35 or SK50 versus the SK10. The main difference is the voltage
regulation and safeguards. The regulator for the SK35 and SK50 is the
LS-1A, with built in over-voltage protection and quiet linear
regulation. It is a true alternator with a field voltage input, etc.
Really good stuff.
If every ounce you put in your aircraft is important (as in you are
competing in the Worlds next year), then the SK10 is the E-Ticket ride.
It will power everything you have listed, as long as your batteries are
in Fair to Perfect condition. If you do not take good care of your
batteries, and you allow them to degrade, you can run into some issues.
These issues can end up causing damage to your nice electronics. The
SK-10 uses an external module regulator and it can fail if your
batteries go to crap and you overload the instantaneous operating
current of the regulator (transponders can do that). The SK-10 has no
field winding. It is really a permanent magnet alternator. The faster
you spin it, the higher the voltage it produces. There is NO control
over the output voltage FROM the Alternator itself (which is the case
with more typical alternators with a field winding instead of permanent
magnets). This thus necessitates the use of some sort of external
over-voltage protection device. B&C sells this too, and it is basically
a crow-bar circuit. When the voltage goes over a pre-set limit, an SCR
type device fires, and puts a direct short on a line hooked to a circuit
breaker. The circuit breaker then blows, which opens a relay, which
then disconnects the output of the voltage regulator from the aircraft.
Since circuit breakers are not instantaneous operating devices,
depending on the magnitude of the voltage surge, damage to external
components is possible.
The SK35 and SK50 are more expensive, weigh a little more, but they
allow for expansion in the electronics as necessary down the road.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of adrian hale
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 3:47 PM
Subject: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
Has anyone experience with the 10 amp alt? Our A/C has the russian
radio but all other avionics and instruments are US. It has the small
Dynon Efis, and electronic tach and a transponder. will 10 amps keep
the bat up?
Message 2
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It is a tad on the low side Eric, but with 10 amps you get 280 watts,
which is enough to power what he has listed.
The thing to keep in mind is the instant current demand versus the
average current demand. The transponder is the biggest issue here since
output on it can be as much as +53 dbm, or about 250 watts. Figure
about 50% efficiency and you are now up to 500 watts of peak demand.
However, the time the transmitter is on is very low (duty cycle in the
single digit range). The radio is also a big current consumer when you
are transmitting anyway.
Further, it is not really a wise choice to run the SK10 wide open with a
10 amp draw. I don't think it will last very long that way!
Thus.... as long as you have a decent set of batteries in there, (as you
mentioned) this system will work. The batteries will provide the short
term current draws needed by the transponders and the radio, and all
will be good. I have personally seen this system work on pretty much
exactly what he has described. I have also seen a lot of bad things
happen if the owner does not stay on top of the battery condition.
The same thing can happen with standard systems as well (battery failure
causing insidious problems), but not quite so quickly as it does with a
system running the SK10 and small batteries.
Thus personally, I recommend the SK35 or SK50.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Wobschall
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
That sounds skimpy to me, depending on battery capacity.
On Mar 28, 2011, at 3:46 PM, adrian hale wrote:
>
> Has anyone experience with the 10 amp alt? Our A/C has the russian
radio but all other avionics and instruments are US. It has the small
Dynon Efis, and electronic tach and a transponder. will 10 amps keep
the bat up?
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
Makes sense, Mark...
Without having done the calculations you did, I was thinking that it would have
to be close, plus it it were charging a depleted battery, etc, and yes you're
right, things running at 100% tend to not last. My later 52 came stock from Romania
with gigantic VRLAs... never had a problem, even with the inverters and
what have you.... but it also had the stock generator. Rick's SU-26M has one
of the B&Cs and I converted that little green battery's lead-acid guts with a
couple alarm batteries. Cheap, and worked for a couple of seasons before needing
replacement. During start, it only needs the batteries for shower of sparks,
but he does have the Dynon, comm radio and xpdr., and it seems to keep up with
those. Daytime VFR only, so you're not taking that much risk if things went
flat, of course.
On Mar 29, 2011, at 12:13 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E wrote:
>
> It is a tad on the low side Eric, but with 10 amps you get 280 watts,
> which is enough to power what he has listed.
>
> The thing to keep in mind is the instant current demand versus the
> average current demand. The transponder is the biggest issue here since
> output on it can be as much as +53 dbm, or about 250 watts. Figure
> about 50% efficiency and you are now up to 500 watts of peak demand.
> However, the time the transmitter is on is very low (duty cycle in the
> single digit range). The radio is also a big current consumer when you
> are transmitting anyway.
>
> Further, it is not really a wise choice to run the SK10 wide open with a
> 10 amp draw. I don't think it will last very long that way!
>
> Thus.... as long as you have a decent set of batteries in there, (as you
> mentioned) this system will work. The batteries will provide the short
> term current draws needed by the transponders and the radio, and all
> will be good. I have personally seen this system work on pretty much
> exactly what he has described. I have also seen a lot of bad things
> happen if the owner does not stay on top of the battery condition.
>
> The same thing can happen with standard systems as well (battery failure
> causing insidious problems), but not quite so quickly as it does with a
> system running the SK10 and small batteries.
>
> Thus personally, I recommend the SK35 or SK50.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Wobschall
> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:26 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>
>
> That sounds skimpy to me, depending on battery capacity.
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2011, at 3:46 PM, adrian hale wrote:
>
>>
>> Has anyone experience with the 10 amp alt? Our A/C has the russian
> radio but all other avionics and instruments are US. It has the small
> Dynon Efis, and electronic tach and a transponder. will 10 amps keep
> the bat up?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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You're absolutely right, Mark! I have the 10 amp B&C on my Yak 50 and
although it works well, I'm going to replace it asap because the electronic
ignition is consuming more power and I'm on the edge.
Anyway, the 10 amp lightweight is only good enough for Sukhoi's that
participate in aerobatics contests.
Jan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
> Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: dinsdag 29 maart 2011 6:13
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> It is a tad on the low side Eric, but with 10 amps you get 280 watts,
> which is enough to power what he has listed.
>
> The thing to keep in mind is the instant current demand versus the
> average current demand. The transponder is the biggest issue here
> since
> output on it can be as much as +53 dbm, or about 250 watts. Figure
> about 50% efficiency and you are now up to 500 watts of peak demand.
> However, the time the transmitter is on is very low (duty cycle in the
> single digit range). The radio is also a big current consumer when you
> are transmitting anyway.
>
> Further, it is not really a wise choice to run the SK10 wide open with
> a
> 10 amp draw. I don't think it will last very long that way!
>
> Thus.... as long as you have a decent set of batteries in there, (as
> you
> mentioned) this system will work. The batteries will provide the short
> term current draws needed by the transponders and the radio, and all
> will be good. I have personally seen this system work on pretty much
> exactly what he has described. I have also seen a lot of bad things
> happen if the owner does not stay on top of the battery condition.
>
> The same thing can happen with standard systems as well (battery
> failure
> causing insidious problems), but not quite so quickly as it does with a
> system running the SK10 and small batteries.
>
> Thus personally, I recommend the SK35 or SK50.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
> Wobschall
> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:26 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>
> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>
> That sounds skimpy to me, depending on battery capacity.
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2011, at 3:46 PM, adrian hale wrote:
>
> >
> > Has anyone experience with the 10 amp alt? Our A/C has the russian
> radio but all other avionics and instruments are US. It has the small
> Dynon Efis, and electronic tach and a transponder. will 10 amps keep
> the bat up?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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|
I happen to really like B&C products, not only from their quality
standpoint, but also the owner is just a super guy who is always willing
to help anyone with a problem. So, I tend to promote his products to
some degree. I wanted to make clear that my experience prejudices me
towards this company.
Your message is correct in every way.
The thing about the SK10 is that it must be used by someone who realizes
that they are sacrificing one thing to get another. The goal of the
SK10 is to get a changing system with the lightest weight possible. The
sacrifice is that it can't be expected to replace a 100 amp DC generator
when it comes to current draw.
The "good battery" issue is amazingly important. If you allow the
batteries to degrade, it is very insidious and most people won't even
notice it is happening, because as you said ... all the battery does is
really power the shower of sparks coil (booster coil) and then it is
"not really used anymore".
Well not so fast. :-)
A depleted battery means... AGAIN as you said ... the SK10 will try to
charge them. And this means that the amount of current generating
capability to power OTHER THINGS is diminished. Pretty darn soon, the
battery can no longer satisfy peak demands, and the SK10 will try to.
It can't. What usually lets go in that situation is the voltage
regulator pass transistor, and sometimes it shorts.
When it shorts, you now have unregulated voltage coming out of the SK10
to the main electrical bus. At high RPM, your voltage will go WAY up,
and the battery will now charge very hard until it boils every bit of
electrolyte right out it (or them).
Now your batteries are toast.
WAIT, it gets better! Now you are hitting the avionics with unregulated
voltage higher than what is "good". Hopefully, the over-voltage
protection will kick in and blow the circuit breaker. When it goes, you
lose ALL power in the aircraft... because remember, your batteries are
now bad.
So you reset the circuit breaker. Most people would. BAM, you now have
another over-voltage incursion. Keep doing that, and your avionics are
not going to like that at all.
And.. most people will suspect they have an ALTERNATOR problem and not
realize bad batteries caused ALL of this.
The SK10 is meant for one thing... weight saving for competitive
aerobatic use. At least that's my opinion. Other than that, the SK35
or SK50 is the right choice.
Just sayin.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Wobschall
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
Makes sense, Mark...
Without having done the calculations you did, I was thinking that it
would have to be close, plus it it were charging a depleted battery,
etc, and yes you're right, things running at 100% tend to not last. My
later 52 came stock from Romania with gigantic VRLAs... never had a
problem, even with the inverters and what have you.... but it also had
the stock generator. Rick's SU-26M has one of the B&Cs and I converted
that little green battery's lead-acid guts with a couple alarm
batteries. Cheap, and worked for a couple of seasons before needing
replacement. During start, it only needs the batteries for shower of
sparks, but he does have the Dynon, comm radio and xpdr., and it seems
to keep up with those. Daytime VFR only, so you're not taking that much
risk if things went flat, of course.
On Mar 29, 2011, at 12:13 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E wrote:
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> It is a tad on the low side Eric, but with 10 amps you get 280 watts,
> which is enough to power what he has listed.
>
> The thing to keep in mind is the instant current demand versus the
> average current demand. The transponder is the biggest issue here
since
> output on it can be as much as +53 dbm, or about 250 watts. Figure
> about 50% efficiency and you are now up to 500 watts of peak demand.
> However, the time the transmitter is on is very low (duty cycle in the
> single digit range). The radio is also a big current consumer when
you
> are transmitting anyway.
>
> Further, it is not really a wise choice to run the SK10 wide open with
a
> 10 amp draw. I don't think it will last very long that way!
>
> Thus.... as long as you have a decent set of batteries in there, (as
you
> mentioned) this system will work. The batteries will provide the
short
> term current draws needed by the transponders and the radio, and all
> will be good. I have personally seen this system work on pretty much
> exactly what he has described. I have also seen a lot of bad things
> happen if the owner does not stay on top of the battery condition.
>
> The same thing can happen with standard systems as well (battery
failure
> causing insidious problems), but not quite so quickly as it does with
a
> system running the SK10 and small batteries.
>
> Thus personally, I recommend the SK35 or SK50.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Wobschall
> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:26 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>
<eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>
> That sounds skimpy to me, depending on battery capacity.
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2011, at 3:46 PM, adrian hale wrote:
>
>>
>> Has anyone experience with the 10 amp alt? Our A/C has the russian
> radio but all other avionics and instruments are US. It has the small
> Dynon Efis, and electronic tach and a transponder. will 10 amps keep
> the bat up?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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Thanks for the reply Jan.
Always nice to hear from you, also always happy to hear that your
ignition system is performing well!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:59 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
You're absolutely right, Mark! I have the 10 amp B&C on my Yak 50 and
although it works well, I'm going to replace it asap because the
electronic
ignition is consuming more power and I'm on the edge.
Anyway, the 10 amp lightweight is only good enough for Sukhoi's that
participate in aerobatics contests.
Jan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
> Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: dinsdag 29 maart 2011 6:13
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> It is a tad on the low side Eric, but with 10 amps you get 280 watts,
> which is enough to power what he has listed.
>
> The thing to keep in mind is the instant current demand versus the
> average current demand. The transponder is the biggest issue here
> since
> output on it can be as much as +53 dbm, or about 250 watts. Figure
> about 50% efficiency and you are now up to 500 watts of peak demand.
> However, the time the transmitter is on is very low (duty cycle in the
> single digit range). The radio is also a big current consumer when
you
> are transmitting anyway.
>
> Further, it is not really a wise choice to run the SK10 wide open with
> a
> 10 amp draw. I don't think it will last very long that way!
>
> Thus.... as long as you have a decent set of batteries in there, (as
> you
> mentioned) this system will work. The batteries will provide the
short
> term current draws needed by the transponders and the radio, and all
> will be good. I have personally seen this system work on pretty much
> exactly what he has described. I have also seen a lot of bad things
> happen if the owner does not stay on top of the battery condition.
>
> The same thing can happen with standard systems as well (battery
> failure
> causing insidious problems), but not quite so quickly as it does with
a
> system running the SK10 and small batteries.
>
> Thus personally, I recommend the SK35 or SK50.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
> Wobschall
> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:26 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>
> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>
> That sounds skimpy to me, depending on battery capacity.
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2011, at 3:46 PM, adrian hale wrote:
>
> >
> > Has anyone experience with the 10 amp alt? Our A/C has the russian
> radio but all other avionics and instruments are US. It has the small
> Dynon Efis, and electronic tach and a transponder. will 10 amps keep
> the bat up?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator |
Cheap insurance, new batteries.
On Mar 29, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
wrote:
>
> I happen to really like B&C products, not only from their quality
> standpoint, but also the owner is just a super guy who is always willing
> to help anyone with a problem. So, I tend to promote his products to
> some degree. I wanted to make clear that my experience prejudices me
> towards this company.
>
> Your message is correct in every way.
>
> The thing about the SK10 is that it must be used by someone who realizes
> that they are sacrificing one thing to get another. The goal of the
> SK10 is to get a changing system with the lightest weight possible. The
> sacrifice is that it can't be expected to replace a 100 amp DC generator
> when it comes to current draw.
>
> The "good battery" issue is amazingly important. If you allow the
> batteries to degrade, it is very insidious and most people won't even
> notice it is happening, because as you said ... all the battery does is
> really power the shower of sparks coil (booster coil) and then it is
> "not really used anymore".
>
> Well not so fast. :-)
>
> A depleted battery means... AGAIN as you said ... the SK10 will try to
> charge them. And this means that the amount of current generating
> capability to power OTHER THINGS is diminished. Pretty darn soon, the
> battery can no longer satisfy peak demands, and the SK10 will try to.
> It can't. What usually lets go in that situation is the voltage
> regulator pass transistor, and sometimes it shorts.
>
> When it shorts, you now have unregulated voltage coming out of the SK10
> to the main electrical bus. At high RPM, your voltage will go WAY up,
> and the battery will now charge very hard until it boils every bit of
> electrolyte right out it (or them).
>
> Now your batteries are toast.
>
> WAIT, it gets better! Now you are hitting the avionics with unregulated
> voltage higher than what is "good". Hopefully, the over-voltage
> protection will kick in and blow the circuit breaker. When it goes, you
> lose ALL power in the aircraft... because remember, your batteries are
> now bad.
>
> So you reset the circuit breaker. Most people would. BAM, you now have
> another over-voltage incursion. Keep doing that, and your avionics are
> not going to like that at all.
>
> And.. most people will suspect they have an ALTERNATOR problem and not
> realize bad batteries caused ALL of this.
>
> The SK10 is meant for one thing... weight saving for competitive
> aerobatic use. At least that's my opinion. Other than that, the SK35
> or SK50 is the right choice.
>
> Just sayin.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Wobschall
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:43 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>
>
> Makes sense, Mark...
>
> Without having done the calculations you did, I was thinking that it
> would have to be close, plus it it were charging a depleted battery,
> etc, and yes you're right, things running at 100% tend to not last. My
> later 52 came stock from Romania with gigantic VRLAs... never had a
> problem, even with the inverters and what have you.... but it also had
> the stock generator. Rick's SU-26M has one of the B&Cs and I converted
> that little green battery's lead-acid guts with a couple alarm
> batteries. Cheap, and worked for a couple of seasons before needing
> replacement. During start, it only needs the batteries for shower of
> sparks, but he does have the Dynon, comm radio and xpdr., and it seems
> to keep up with those. Daytime VFR only, so you're not taking that much
> risk if things went flat, of course.
>
>
> On Mar 29, 2011, at 12:13 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
> MALS-14 64E wrote:
>
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> It is a tad on the low side Eric, but with 10 amps you get 280 watts,
>> which is enough to power what he has listed.
>>
>> The thing to keep in mind is the instant current demand versus the
>> average current demand. The transponder is the biggest issue here
> since
>> output on it can be as much as +53 dbm, or about 250 watts. Figure
>> about 50% efficiency and you are now up to 500 watts of peak demand.
>> However, the time the transmitter is on is very low (duty cycle in the
>> single digit range). The radio is also a big current consumer when
> you
>> are transmitting anyway.
>>
>> Further, it is not really a wise choice to run the SK10 wide open with
> a
>> 10 amp draw. I don't think it will last very long that way!
>>
>> Thus.... as long as you have a decent set of batteries in there, (as
> you
>> mentioned) this system will work. The batteries will provide the
> short
>> term current draws needed by the transponders and the radio, and all
>> will be good. I have personally seen this system work on pretty much
>> exactly what he has described. I have also seen a lot of bad things
>> happen if the owner does not stay on top of the battery condition.
>>
>> The same thing can happen with standard systems as well (battery
> failure
>> causing insidious problems), but not quite so quickly as it does with
> a
>> system running the SK10 and small batteries.
>>
>> Thus personally, I recommend the SK35 or SK50.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
> Wobschall
>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:26 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: B&C Alternator
>>
> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>
>> That sounds skimpy to me, depending on battery capacity.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2011, at 3:46 PM, adrian hale wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Has anyone experience with the 10 amp alt? Our A/C has the russian
>> radio but all other avionics and instruments are US. It has the small
>> Dynon Efis, and electronic tach and a transponder. will 10 amps keep
>> the bat up?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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