Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:36 AM - 55m Sighting Device (andrew richards)
2. 08:41 AM - Tailslides (Grayson)
3. 09:09 AM - Re: Tailslides (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 09:39 AM - Re: Tailslides (Roger Kemp M.D.)
5. 10:09 AM - Re: Tailslides (Grayson)
6. 12:12 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Eric Wobschall)
7. 12:29 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Mark Davis)
8. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (A. Dennis Savarese)
9. 12:54 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
10. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
11. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Eric Wobschall)
12. 01:27 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
13. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Mark Davis)
14. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
15. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
16. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
17. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
18. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Mark Davis)
19. 05:46 PM - Re: Tailslides (Bill Geipel)
20. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (A. Dennis Savarese)
21. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (A. Dennis Savarese)
22. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Mark Davis)
23. 08:05 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Mark Davis)
24. 08:54 PM - Re: Re: Tailslides (Walter Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 55m Sighting Device |
Does anyone know where I can get an aerobatic sighting device for a Yak 55M?
Thanks
Andrew
Message 2
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Is there any consensus on doing tailslides in the Yak-52?
Grayson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338764#338764
Message 3
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Hold on tightly?
Mark
p.s. Sorry, could not resist.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grayson
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 11:37 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Tailslides
Is there any consensus on doing tailslides in the Yak-52?
Grayson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338764#338764
Message 4
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The translated RU pilots' manual states for the novice to avoid them.
No insinuation of experience made with this post. Just stating the
recommendations made by the guys that had the most experience.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grayson
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:37 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Tailslides
Is there any consensus on doing tailslides in the Yak-52?
Grayson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338764#338764
Message 5
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So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere, perhaps in
the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
- Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
Grayson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
Message 6
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Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes like the Great
Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for sure.
On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>
> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere, perhaps
in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>
> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>
>
> Grayson
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being prohibited
due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I read it
though.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Wobschall" <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes like
> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
> sure.
>
>
> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>
>>
>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>
>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>
>>
>> Grayson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 8
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I am conversing with a gentleman in Lithuania as I write this and asked
him the tailslide question. His response was, "tailslides are forbidden
in Yak 52 by the CAA in Lithuania." I asked why was this? His answer
(and you'll really want to pay attention to this), " there were several
elevator blocks by counterweight hammer".
Over the years I have been told by several expert Yak 52 aerobatic
pilots/instructors outside the US that the Yak 52 was capable of and
approved for all IAC intermediate level aerobatic maneuvers except
tailslides.
FWIW
Dennis
On 5/3/2011 2:08 PM, Eric Wobschall wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Eric Wobschall<eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>
> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes like the
Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for sure.
>
>
> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Grayson"<grayson50@hotmail.com>
>>
>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere, perhaps
in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>
>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>
>>
>> Grayson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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Mark,
The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any impact
on tail slides.
For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach tumbles
and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides in
my YAK-50.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
prohibited
due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I read
it
though.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Wobschall" <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
<eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>
> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
like
> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
> sure.
>
>
> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>
>>
>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>
>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>
>>
>> Grayson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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Glad to hear this.
Then you think that would apply to the 50 as well?
Hmmm.
Interesting....
I am going to Sergei and ask him.....
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
I am conversing with a gentleman in Lithuania as I write this and asked
him the tailslide question. His response was, "tailslides are forbidden
in Yak 52 by the CAA in Lithuania." I asked why was this? His answer
(and you'll really want to pay attention to this), " there were several
elevator blocks by counterweight hammer".
Over the years I have been told by several expert Yak 52 aerobatic
pilots/instructors outside the US that the Yak 52 was capable of and
approved for all IAC intermediate level aerobatic maneuvers except
tailslides.
FWIW
Dennis
On 5/3/2011 2:08 PM, Eric Wobschall wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Eric
Wobschall<eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>
> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
like the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know
for sure.
>
>
> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Grayson"<grayson50@hotmail.com>
>>
>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>
>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>
>>
>> Grayson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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So that counterweight was bending over somehow and jamming?
On May 3, 2011, at 3:48 PM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
>
> I am conversing with a gentleman in Lithuania as I write this and asked him the
tailslide question. His response was, "tailslides are forbidden in Yak 52
by the CAA in Lithuania." I asked why was this? His answer (and you'll really
want to pay attention to this), " there were several elevator blocks by counterweight
hammer".
>
> Over the years I have been told by several expert Yak 52 aerobatic pilots/instructors
outside the US that the Yak 52 was capable of and approved for all IAC
intermediate level aerobatic maneuvers except tailslides.
>
> FWIW
> Dennis
>
> On 5/3/2011 2:08 PM, Eric Wobschall wrote:
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Eric Wobschall<eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>
>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes like the
Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for sure.
>>
>>
>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Grayson"<grayson50@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere, perhaps
in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>
>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>
>>>
>>> Grayson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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Well....
Let me say first of that I respect Dennis more than most anyone else in
the world, and I know that his Lithuanian friends are extremely
knowledgeable.
That said, let me quote a conversation I just had.
I called Sergei Boriak, who was the USSR National Champion Aerobatic
Pilot, and also a Test Pilot for Sukhoi (on the 26 program), and the
former coach for the United States Unlimited Aerobatic Team and asked
him this question: "Sergei, do you know of any restrictions for doing
tailslides in the YAK-52 or YAK-50 aircraft?"
His response was: "Mark, how in the world do you think the YAK-50
become World Champion Aircraft in 1980 when the tailslide was a required
maneuver in the unlimited category?"
I pressed him again and asked if he knew of anything that would be
dangerous about doing tailslides in the YAK-52 aircraft.
His response: "As long as the aircraft is in good shape and is properly
maintained there will be no problem".
Ok.... that said, when I brought up the SPECIFIC issue of
counter-weights, he said: "Of course, if these components are loose or
damaged, that is a different story".
With all this now said, I suggest that anyone contemplating tail-slides
in ANY aircraft receive instruction from an expert in the make and model
aircraft that they specifically are about to attempt them in. I also
suggest that with all that has been said about the YAK elevator
counter-weight issue lately, that it might be a good idea to have that
area inspected... ESPECIALLY for proper rigging and travel movement
adjustment before putting excessive strains in that area.
Tail-slides have the capability of imposing terrific forces on the
aircraft, although it is not as easy to do that as one might think. The
airplane simply does NOT like to slide down backwards in a straight
line. It wants to do everything BUT that really. That said, if you
somehow manage to allow it to develop and are not prepared for the stick
forces that will be imposed when you begin the recovery, you can end up
SLAMMING controls into the stop.
As regards the IAC not approving YAK-52's for tail-slides, I am a member
and will inquire about that specifically.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
I am conversing with a gentleman in Lithuania as I write this and asked
him the tailslide question. His response was, "tailslides are forbidden
in Yak 52 by the CAA in Lithuania." I asked why was this? His answer
(and you'll really want to pay attention to this), " there were several
elevator blocks by counterweight hammer".
Over the years I have been told by several expert Yak 52 aerobatic
pilots/instructors outside the US that the Yak 52 was capable of and
approved for all IAC intermediate level aerobatic maneuvers except
tailslides.
FWIW
Dennis
On 5/3/2011 2:08 PM, Eric Wobschall wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Eric
Wobschall<eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>
> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
like the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know
for sure.
>
>
> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Grayson"<grayson50@hotmail.com>
>>
>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>
>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>
>>
>> Grayson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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Mark,
I'll look more for what I referred to, but what Dennis relates in a
follow up is what I had heard, "everything but tailslides". The only
obvious difference would be the gross weight of the -52 with a crew of two
compared to the -50 and other YAKs, Sukhois which wouldn't put the potential
stress on the fabric surfaces. Whoever initially told me that, my response
was "what about the -52TW and others that have metal clad control surfaces".
They didn't know the answer. It will be interesting to know the "why not"
if the maneuvers are not recommended or prohibited.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Mark,
>
> The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
> YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any impact
> on tail slides.
>
> For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach tumbles
> and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides in
> my YAK-50.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
> I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
> prohibited
> due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I read
> it
> though.
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Wobschall" <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>
>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
> like
>> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
>> sure.
>>
>>
>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>
>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>
>>>
>>> Grayson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 14
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Well, he said, that she said, that he heard, that Tom mentioned, who
heard it from Alex, that maybe it did exactly that.
The simple fact is that Dennis has talked to one person that says one
thing. I have talked to someone else that says something different.
And until someone comes up with a document on paper that specifically
addresses THIS issue, it's all hear-say. Everything else is conjecture
and as long as everyone realizes it is conjecture, there is no problem
what-so-ever.
When conjecture somehow moves into the realm of "documented reality",
then gents... I do have a problem with that.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Wobschall
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
So that counterweight was bending over somehow and jamming?
On May 3, 2011, at 3:48 PM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>
> I am conversing with a gentleman in Lithuania as I write this and
asked him the tailslide question. His response was, "tailslides are
forbidden in Yak 52 by the CAA in Lithuania." I asked why was this?
His answer (and you'll really want to pay attention to this), " there
were several elevator blocks by counterweight hammer".
>
> Over the years I have been told by several expert Yak 52 aerobatic
pilots/instructors outside the US that the Yak 52 was capable of and
approved for all IAC intermediate level aerobatic maneuvers except
tailslides.
>
> FWIW
> Dennis
>
> On 5/3/2011 2:08 PM, Eric Wobschall wrote:
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Eric
Wobschall<eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>
>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
like the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know
for sure.
>>
>>
>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>
>>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Grayson"<grayson50@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>
>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>
>>>
>>> Grayson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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Excuse me. Excuse me.
I misspoke, I made an error. I said something that was INCORRECT.
The Sukhoi aircraft, model's 26, 29 and 31 do NOT have fabric control
surfaces. My bad, I am sorry.... I know better. OOPS.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Glad to hear this.
Then you think that would apply to the 50 as well?
Hmmm.
Interesting....
I am going to Sergei and ask him.....
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
I am conversing with a gentleman in Lithuania as I write this and asked
him the tailslide question. His response was, "tailslides are forbidden
in Yak 52 by the CAA in Lithuania." I asked why was this? His answer
(and you'll really want to pay attention to this), " there were several
elevator blocks by counterweight hammer".
Over the years I have been told by several expert Yak 52 aerobatic
pilots/instructors outside the US that the Yak 52 was capable of and
approved for all IAC intermediate level aerobatic maneuvers except
tailslides.
FWIW
Dennis
On 5/3/2011 2:08 PM, Eric Wobschall wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Eric
Wobschall<eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>
> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
like the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know
for sure.
>
>
> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>
>> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Grayson"<grayson50@hotmail.com>
>>
>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>
>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>
>>
>> Grayson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 16
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Sergei Boriak teaches tail slides in the YAK-52.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
Mark,
I'll look more for what I referred to, but what Dennis relates in a
follow up is what I had heard, "everything but tailslides". The only
obvious difference would be the gross weight of the -52 with a crew of
two
compared to the -50 and other YAKs, Sukhois which wouldn't put the
potential
stress on the fabric surfaces. Whoever initially told me that, my
response
was "what about the -52TW and others that have metal clad control
surfaces".
They didn't know the answer. It will be interesting to know the "why
not"
if the maneuvers are not recommended or prohibited.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Mark,
>
> The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
> YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any
impact
> on tail slides.
>
> For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach
tumbles
> and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides
in
> my YAK-50.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
> I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
> prohibited
> due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I
read
> it
> though.
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Wobschall" <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>
>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
> like
>> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
>> sure.
>>
>>
>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>
>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>
>>>
>>> Grayson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 17
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Ok, let's talk conjecture, just for the fun of it.
When an aircraft flies backwards in a tail-slide, what is the estimated
speed and airflow over the control surfaces as it makes the reverse?
Any thoughts on that? Before we talk about it, let's limit this
discussion please to pilots who have actually performed tail-slides in
any make or model of aircraft.
Now. How about a snap roll. What are the speed and flow forces (that
would be AIR LOADS) over the control surfaces themselves when an
aircraft performs an accelerated snap roll. Let's focus on elevator and
rudder please.
Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
you tell me.
The air load on the control surfaces during a tail slide are backwards.
Does this make them higher? We are talking about the actual pressure
induced air loads on the surfaces of these controls. Remember that
speed through the air during a tail slide is in reality very slow as
compared to normal flight.
How about bending moments? Are they higher during a tail-slide, or are
they higher during a 9 G pull at 150 knots? We're talking about when
everything is done CORRECTLY!
On the other hand.... what happens if you manage to get into a good tail
slide and then just "let go" of the stick? The result is that it will
SLAM with a very large degree of force right into the control stop.
Anything hooked to the elevator when this happens... such as a
COUNTER-WEIGHT is going to have a HUGE instantaneous load. HUGE.
Would it be possible to mismanage the aircraft to such a large degree,
then LET go of the stick, and ALLOW it to SLAM into the stop, and when
that happened, would it BE POSSIBLE to incur some type of mechanical
failure? Yep... I do believe that is possible, and it can happen if the
pilot is not prepared for the forces that can happen in advance!
That said, I fully agree that it is entirely possible for a pilot to put
an aircraft into a situation where it exceeds its design limits and
something breaks.
I have watched tail-slides being taught in a YAK-52. I have performed
tail-slides in a YAK-50. I disagree with anyone that says that the YAK
model aircraft is not safe to do tail-slides... politely and
respectfully disagree. The expert I believe in is my aerobatic coach.
Who anyone else believes is their own personal choice and I respect that
too. If you have doubts, THEN DO NOT DO THEM!
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
Mark,
I'll look more for what I referred to, but what Dennis relates in a
follow up is what I had heard, "everything but tailslides". The only
obvious difference would be the gross weight of the -52 with a crew of
two
compared to the -50 and other YAKs, Sukhois which wouldn't put the
potential
stress on the fabric surfaces. Whoever initially told me that, my
response
was "what about the -52TW and others that have metal clad control
surfaces".
They didn't know the answer. It will be interesting to know the "why
not"
if the maneuvers are not recommended or prohibited.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Mark,
>
> The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
> YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any
impact
> on tail slides.
>
> For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach
tumbles
> and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides
in
> my YAK-50.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
> I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
> prohibited
> due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I
read
> it
> though.
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Wobschall" <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>
>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
> like
>> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
>> sure.
>>
>>
>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>
>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>
>>>
>>> Grayson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 18
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|
Mark,
Now I know where I'd seen the prohibition on tail slides before.... in the
POH for my YAK. I found an online copy that is the same as the one that
came with N44YK. I'm not sure who generated it or if it is correct. I'm
sure tailslides have been done safely in YAK 52's by many for years, but I'm
still curious why they are listed as prohibited on page 10 of this POH. The
link follows:
www.yak-52.com/downloads/?YAK52%20POH.doc
My copy of the above manual doesn't have the question marks in parenthesis
like the link above shows. Maybe Dennis knows the origin of the manual.
Oh... for the record, so I can participate in the discussion, I have done
tail slides in several aircraft (TA-4J and T-2C), just not in one that has
the maneuver prohibited in it's POH (EA-6B NATOPS/SOP and my YAK-52 POH
albeit possibly in error). Must be my Navy flight training that makes me
heed the "don't do it" stuff.
As for the tailslides themselves, I've seen some done that appear to create
a much higher than typical backward airspeed. Whether by luck (my case) or
skill (Sergei Boriak) those would be the ones that would impart a
potentially damaging load on control surfaces. As for your question "Which
is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well, you tell
me", my simple mind goes back to learning as a small child that it wasn't a
good idea to stick your hand out of the window of a car at 80 mph fingers
pointing forward then deflecting your hand contrary to the prevailing wind.
Nearly getting my shoulder yanked out of the socket taught me that fairing
your hand downwind put a less rapid load on my joints. Back to my flight
training....don't yank on the G (or rolling pulls).
So, after all that, I still would be interested in knowing why SOMEONE
deemed it apparently unsafe in a YAK 52 enough to include in a POH.
Anecdotal evidence that the maneuver has been performed routinely without
causing structural failure doesn't mean it hasn't been exceeding load limits
that someone, somewhere thinks is excessive. If it came from someone in the
design, manufacture, or writing the initial operating limitations of the YAK
52 then I'm interested.
Thanks for your input. I enjoy the discussion.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:18 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Ok, let's talk conjecture, just for the fun of it.
>
> When an aircraft flies backwards in a tail-slide, what is the estimated
> speed and airflow over the control surfaces as it makes the reverse?
> Any thoughts on that? Before we talk about it, let's limit this
> discussion please to pilots who have actually performed tail-slides in
> any make or model of aircraft.
>
> Now. How about a snap roll. What are the speed and flow forces (that
> would be AIR LOADS) over the control surfaces themselves when an
> aircraft performs an accelerated snap roll. Let's focus on elevator and
> rudder please.
>
> Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
> you tell me.
>
> The air load on the control surfaces during a tail slide are backwards.
> Does this make them higher? We are talking about the actual pressure
> induced air loads on the surfaces of these controls. Remember that
> speed through the air during a tail slide is in reality very slow as
> compared to normal flight.
>
> How about bending moments? Are they higher during a tail-slide, or are
> they higher during a 9 G pull at 150 knots? We're talking about when
> everything is done CORRECTLY!
>
> On the other hand.... what happens if you manage to get into a good tail
> slide and then just "let go" of the stick? The result is that it will
> SLAM with a very large degree of force right into the control stop.
> Anything hooked to the elevator when this happens... such as a
> COUNTER-WEIGHT is going to have a HUGE instantaneous load. HUGE.
>
> Would it be possible to mismanage the aircraft to such a large degree,
> then LET go of the stick, and ALLOW it to SLAM into the stop, and when
> that happened, would it BE POSSIBLE to incur some type of mechanical
> failure? Yep... I do believe that is possible, and it can happen if the
> pilot is not prepared for the forces that can happen in advance!
>
> That said, I fully agree that it is entirely possible for a pilot to put
> an aircraft into a situation where it exceeds its design limits and
> something breaks.
>
> I have watched tail-slides being taught in a YAK-52. I have performed
> tail-slides in a YAK-50. I disagree with anyone that says that the YAK
> model aircraft is not safe to do tail-slides... politely and
> respectfully disagree. The expert I believe in is my aerobatic coach.
> Who anyone else believes is their own personal choice and I respect that
> too. If you have doubts, THEN DO NOT DO THEM!
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:37 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
> Mark,
> I'll look more for what I referred to, but what Dennis relates in a
>
> follow up is what I had heard, "everything but tailslides". The only
> obvious difference would be the gross weight of the -52 with a crew of
> two
> compared to the -50 and other YAKs, Sukhois which wouldn't put the
> potential
> stress on the fabric surfaces. Whoever initially told me that, my
> response
> was "what about the -52TW and others that have metal clad control
> surfaces".
> They didn't know the answer. It will be interesting to know the "why
> not"
> if the maneuvers are not recommended or prohibited.
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:50 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
> Point,
>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
>> YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any
> impact
>> on tail slides.
>>
>> For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach
> tumbles
>> and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides
> in
>> my YAK-50.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>
>>
>> I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
>> prohibited
>> due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I
> read
>> it
>> though.
>>
>> Mark Davis
>> N44YK
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Eric Wobschall" <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>
>>
>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>>
>>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
>> like
>>> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
>>> sure.
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>>>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>>
>>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Grayson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 19
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|
There must be a reason that so much conversation is generated by this. Why would
you want to do this during normal fun flying on a clear beautiful day? Unless
you have something to prove to yourself. Cause No one else will care.
If it says in the manual, don't do it. If you believe something else, have at it.
Go by yourself so the innocent don't get hurt or run risk of getting hurt.
It's like paying taxes, the book says do it, but there is always someone that pushes
the envelope and tries to avoid it. And in the end, a burial at sea.
Blue Sky's
On May 3, 2011, at 11:15 AM, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> The translated RU pilots' manual states for the novice to avoid them.
> No insinuation of experience made with this post. Just stating the
> recommendations made by the guys that had the most experience.
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grayson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:37 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Tailslides
>
>
> Is there any consensus on doing tailslides in the Yak-52?
>
> Grayson
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338764#338764
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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|
The Yak manual you speak of is on my web site and was given to me about
13-14 years ago by a gentleman who is a CFI and was trained in Russia by
Russian pilots. He extracted, translated and condensed the information
from the original Russian flight manual and from the instructors who
trained him.
I think my only point is, regardless of who says it's OK or who says
it's not OK is the fact that a government Civil Aviation Administration
(CAA) has prohibited tail slides in Yak 52's. There has to be something
behind this prohibition, assuming it is true. Now if I can find
substantiating documentation, I will share that with the group.
Dennis
On 5/3/2011 7:00 PM, Mark Davis wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> Now I know where I'd seen the prohibition on tail slides before.... in
> the POH for my YAK. I found an online copy that is the same as the one
> that came with N44YK. I'm not sure who generated it or if it is correct.
> I'm sure tailslides have been done safely in YAK 52's by many for years,
> but I'm still curious why they are listed as prohibited on page 10 of
> this POH. The link follows:
>
> www.yak-52.com/downloads/?YAK52%20POH.doc
>
> My copy of the above manual doesn't have the question marks in
> parenthesis like the link above shows. Maybe Dennis knows the origin of
> the manual.
>
> Oh... for the record, so I can participate in the discussion, I have
> done tail slides in several aircraft (TA-4J and T-2C), just not in one
> that has the maneuver prohibited in it's POH (EA-6B NATOPS/SOP and my
> YAK-52 POH albeit possibly in error). Must be my Navy flight training
> that makes me heed the "don't do it" stuff.
>
> As for the tailslides themselves, I've seen some done that appear to
> create a much higher than typical backward airspeed. Whether by luck (my
> case) or skill (Sergei Boriak) those would be the ones that would impart
> a potentially damaging load on control surfaces. As for your question
> "Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
> you tell me", my simple mind goes back to learning as a small child that
> it wasn't a good idea to stick your hand out of the window of a car at
> 80 mph fingers pointing forward then deflecting your hand contrary to
> the prevailing wind. Nearly getting my shoulder yanked out of the socket
> taught me that fairing your hand downwind put a less rapid load on my
> joints. Back to my flight training....don't yank on the G (or rolling
> pulls).
>
> So, after all that, I still would be interested in knowing why SOMEONE
> deemed it apparently unsafe in a YAK 52 enough to include in a POH.
> Anecdotal evidence that the maneuver has been performed routinely
> without causing structural failure doesn't mean it hasn't been exceeding
> load limits that someone, somewhere thinks is excessive. If it came from
> someone in the design, manufacture, or writing the initial operating
> limitations of the YAK 52 then I'm interested.
>
> Thanks for your input. I enjoy the discussion.
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:18 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> Ok, let's talk conjecture, just for the fun of it.
>>
>> When an aircraft flies backwards in a tail-slide, what is the estimated
>> speed and airflow over the control surfaces as it makes the reverse?
>> Any thoughts on that? Before we talk about it, let's limit this
>> discussion please to pilots who have actually performed tail-slides in
>> any make or model of aircraft.
>>
>> Now. How about a snap roll. What are the speed and flow forces (that
>> would be AIR LOADS) over the control surfaces themselves when an
>> aircraft performs an accelerated snap roll. Let's focus on elevator and
>> rudder please.
>>
>> Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
>> you tell me.
>>
>> The air load on the control surfaces during a tail slide are backwards.
>> Does this make them higher? We are talking about the actual pressure
>> induced air loads on the surfaces of these controls. Remember that
>> speed through the air during a tail slide is in reality very slow as
>> compared to normal flight.
>>
>> How about bending moments? Are they higher during a tail-slide, or are
>> they higher during a 9 G pull at 150 knots? We're talking about when
>> everything is done CORRECTLY!
>>
>> On the other hand.... what happens if you manage to get into a good tail
>> slide and then just "let go" of the stick? The result is that it will
>> SLAM with a very large degree of force right into the control stop.
>> Anything hooked to the elevator when this happens... such as a
>> COUNTER-WEIGHT is going to have a HUGE instantaneous load. HUGE.
>>
>> Would it be possible to mismanage the aircraft to such a large degree,
>> then LET go of the stick, and ALLOW it to SLAM into the stop, and when
>> that happened, would it BE POSSIBLE to incur some type of mechanical
>> failure? Yep... I do believe that is possible, and it can happen if the
>> pilot is not prepared for the forces that can happen in advance!
>>
>> That said, I fully agree that it is entirely possible for a pilot to put
>> an aircraft into a situation where it exceeds its design limits and
>> something breaks.
>>
>> I have watched tail-slides being taught in a YAK-52. I have performed
>> tail-slides in a YAK-50. I disagree with anyone that says that the YAK
>> model aircraft is not safe to do tail-slides... politely and
>> respectfully disagree. The expert I believe in is my aerobatic coach.
>> Who anyone else believes is their own personal choice and I respect that
>> too. If you have doubts, THEN DO NOT DO THEM!
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:37 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>
>>
>> Mark,
>> I'll look more for what I referred to, but what Dennis relates in a
>>
>> follow up is what I had heard, "everything but tailslides". The only
>> obvious difference would be the gross weight of the -52 with a crew of
>> two
>> compared to the -50 and other YAKs, Sukhois which wouldn't put the
>> potential
>> stress on the fabric surfaces. Whoever initially told me that, my
>> response
>> was "what about the -52TW and others that have metal clad control
>> surfaces".
>> They didn't know the answer. It will be interesting to know the "why
>> not"
>> if the maneuvers are not recommended or prohibited.
>>
>> Mark Davis
>> N44YK
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
>> Point, MALS-14 64E"
>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:50 PM
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>
>>
>> Point,
>>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
>>> YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any
>> impact
>>> on tail slides.
>>>
>>> For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach
>> tumbles
>>> and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides
>> in
>>> my YAK-50.
>>>
>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
>>> prohibited
>>> due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I
>> read
>>> it
>>> though.
>>>
>>> Mark Davis
>>> N44YK
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Wobschall"
>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>
>>>
>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>>>
>>>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
>>> like
>>>> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
>>>> sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>>>>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Grayson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 21
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I may not be associated with the vertical speed. Maybe it is the snap-
over motion into the nose down attitude (from nose up) that exerts the
stress on the elevator and horizontal stab?
Dennis
On 5/3/2011 7:00 PM, Mark Davis wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> Now I know where I'd seen the prohibition on tail slides before.... in
> the POH for my YAK. I found an online copy that is the same as the one
> that came with N44YK. I'm not sure who generated it or if it is correct.
> I'm sure tailslides have been done safely in YAK 52's by many for years,
> but I'm still curious why they are listed as prohibited on page 10 of
> this POH. The link follows:
>
> www.yak-52.com/downloads/?YAK52%20POH.doc
>
> My copy of the above manual doesn't have the question marks in
> parenthesis like the link above shows. Maybe Dennis knows the origin of
> the manual.
>
> Oh... for the record, so I can participate in the discussion, I have
> done tail slides in several aircraft (TA-4J and T-2C), just not in one
> that has the maneuver prohibited in it's POH (EA-6B NATOPS/SOP and my
> YAK-52 POH albeit possibly in error). Must be my Navy flight training
> that makes me heed the "don't do it" stuff.
>
> As for the tailslides themselves, I've seen some done that appear to
> create a much higher than typical backward airspeed. Whether by luck (my
> case) or skill (Sergei Boriak) those would be the ones that would impart
> a potentially damaging load on control surfaces. As for your question
> "Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
> you tell me", my simple mind goes back to learning as a small child that
> it wasn't a good idea to stick your hand out of the window of a car at
> 80 mph fingers pointing forward then deflecting your hand contrary to
> the prevailing wind. Nearly getting my shoulder yanked out of the socket
> taught me that fairing your hand downwind put a less rapid load on my
> joints. Back to my flight training....don't yank on the G (or rolling
> pulls).
>
> So, after all that, I still would be interested in knowing why SOMEONE
> deemed it apparently unsafe in a YAK 52 enough to include in a POH.
> Anecdotal evidence that the maneuver has been performed routinely
> without causing structural failure doesn't mean it hasn't been exceeding
> load limits that someone, somewhere thinks is excessive. If it came from
> someone in the design, manufacture, or writing the initial operating
> limitations of the YAK 52 then I'm interested.
>
> Thanks for your input. I enjoy the discussion.
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:18 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> Ok, let's talk conjecture, just for the fun of it.
>>
>> When an aircraft flies backwards in a tail-slide, what is the estimated
>> speed and airflow over the control surfaces as it makes the reverse?
>> Any thoughts on that? Before we talk about it, let's limit this
>> discussion please to pilots who have actually performed tail-slides in
>> any make or model of aircraft.
>>
>> Now. How about a snap roll. What are the speed and flow forces (that
>> would be AIR LOADS) over the control surfaces themselves when an
>> aircraft performs an accelerated snap roll. Let's focus on elevator and
>> rudder please.
>>
>> Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
>> you tell me.
>>
>> The air load on the control surfaces during a tail slide are backwards.
>> Does this make them higher? We are talking about the actual pressure
>> induced air loads on the surfaces of these controls. Remember that
>> speed through the air during a tail slide is in reality very slow as
>> compared to normal flight.
>>
>> How about bending moments? Are they higher during a tail-slide, or are
>> they higher during a 9 G pull at 150 knots? We're talking about when
>> everything is done CORRECTLY!
>>
>> On the other hand.... what happens if you manage to get into a good tail
>> slide and then just "let go" of the stick? The result is that it will
>> SLAM with a very large degree of force right into the control stop.
>> Anything hooked to the elevator when this happens... such as a
>> COUNTER-WEIGHT is going to have a HUGE instantaneous load. HUGE.
>>
>> Would it be possible to mismanage the aircraft to such a large degree,
>> then LET go of the stick, and ALLOW it to SLAM into the stop, and when
>> that happened, would it BE POSSIBLE to incur some type of mechanical
>> failure? Yep... I do believe that is possible, and it can happen if the
>> pilot is not prepared for the forces that can happen in advance!
>>
>> That said, I fully agree that it is entirely possible for a pilot to put
>> an aircraft into a situation where it exceeds its design limits and
>> something breaks.
>>
>> I have watched tail-slides being taught in a YAK-52. I have performed
>> tail-slides in a YAK-50. I disagree with anyone that says that the YAK
>> model aircraft is not safe to do tail-slides... politely and
>> respectfully disagree. The expert I believe in is my aerobatic coach.
>> Who anyone else believes is their own personal choice and I respect that
>> too. If you have doubts, THEN DO NOT DO THEM!
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:37 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>
>>
>> Mark,
>> I'll look more for what I referred to, but what Dennis relates in a
>>
>> follow up is what I had heard, "everything but tailslides". The only
>> obvious difference would be the gross weight of the -52 with a crew of
>> two
>> compared to the -50 and other YAKs, Sukhois which wouldn't put the
>> potential
>> stress on the fabric surfaces. Whoever initially told me that, my
>> response
>> was "what about the -52TW and others that have metal clad control
>> surfaces".
>> They didn't know the answer. It will be interesting to know the "why
>> not"
>> if the maneuvers are not recommended or prohibited.
>>
>> Mark Davis
>> N44YK
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
>> Point, MALS-14 64E"
>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:50 PM
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>
>>
>> Point,
>>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
>>> YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any
>> impact
>>> on tail slides.
>>>
>>> For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach
>> tumbles
>>> and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides
>> in
>>> my YAK-50.
>>>
>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
>>> prohibited
>>> due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I
>> read
>>> it
>>> though.
>>>
>>> Mark Davis
>>> N44YK
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Wobschall"
>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>
>>>
>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>>>
>>>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
>>> like
>>>> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
>>>> sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>>>>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Grayson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
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Dennis,
Thanks for the clarification.
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>
> The Yak manual you speak of is on my web site and was given to me about
> 13-14 years ago by a gentleman who is a CFI and was trained in Russia by
> Russian pilots. He extracted, translated and condensed the information
> from the original Russian flight manual and from the instructors who
> trained him.
>
> I think my only point is, regardless of who says it's OK or who says it's
> not OK is the fact that a government Civil Aviation Administration (CAA)
> has prohibited tail slides in Yak 52's. There has to be something behind
> this prohibition, assuming it is true. Now if I can find substantiating
> documentation, I will share that with the group.
> Dennis
>
>
> On 5/3/2011 7:00 PM, Mark Davis wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Now I know where I'd seen the prohibition on tail slides before.... in
>> the POH for my YAK. I found an online copy that is the same as the one
>> that came with N44YK. I'm not sure who generated it or if it is correct.
>> I'm sure tailslides have been done safely in YAK 52's by many for years,
>> but I'm still curious why they are listed as prohibited on page 10 of
>> this POH. The link follows:
>>
>> www.yak-52.com/downloads/?YAK52%20POH.doc
>>
>> My copy of the above manual doesn't have the question marks in
>> parenthesis like the link above shows. Maybe Dennis knows the origin of
>> the manual.
>>
>> Oh... for the record, so I can participate in the discussion, I have
>> done tail slides in several aircraft (TA-4J and T-2C), just not in one
>> that has the maneuver prohibited in it's POH (EA-6B NATOPS/SOP and my
>> YAK-52 POH albeit possibly in error). Must be my Navy flight training
>> that makes me heed the "don't do it" stuff.
>>
>> As for the tailslides themselves, I've seen some done that appear to
>> create a much higher than typical backward airspeed. Whether by luck (my
>> case) or skill (Sergei Boriak) those would be the ones that would impart
>> a potentially damaging load on control surfaces. As for your question
>> "Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
>> you tell me", my simple mind goes back to learning as a small child that
>> it wasn't a good idea to stick your hand out of the window of a car at
>> 80 mph fingers pointing forward then deflecting your hand contrary to
>> the prevailing wind. Nearly getting my shoulder yanked out of the socket
>> taught me that fairing your hand downwind put a less rapid load on my
>> joints. Back to my flight training....don't yank on the G (or rolling
>> pulls).
>>
>> So, after all that, I still would be interested in knowing why SOMEONE
>> deemed it apparently unsafe in a YAK 52 enough to include in a POH.
>> Anecdotal evidence that the maneuver has been performed routinely
>> without causing structural failure doesn't mean it hasn't been exceeding
>> load limits that someone, somewhere thinks is excessive. If it came from
>> someone in the design, manufacture, or writing the initial operating
>> limitations of the YAK 52 then I'm interested.
>>
>> Thanks for your input. I enjoy the discussion.
>>
>> Mark Davis
>> N44YK
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:18 PM
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>
>>
>>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>> Ok, let's talk conjecture, just for the fun of it.
>>>
>>> When an aircraft flies backwards in a tail-slide, what is the estimated
>>> speed and airflow over the control surfaces as it makes the reverse?
>>> Any thoughts on that? Before we talk about it, let's limit this
>>> discussion please to pilots who have actually performed tail-slides in
>>> any make or model of aircraft.
>>>
>>> Now. How about a snap roll. What are the speed and flow forces (that
>>> would be AIR LOADS) over the control surfaces themselves when an
>>> aircraft performs an accelerated snap roll. Let's focus on elevator and
>>> rudder please.
>>>
>>> Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
>>> you tell me.
>>>
>>> The air load on the control surfaces during a tail slide are backwards.
>>> Does this make them higher? We are talking about the actual pressure
>>> induced air loads on the surfaces of these controls. Remember that
>>> speed through the air during a tail slide is in reality very slow as
>>> compared to normal flight.
>>>
>>> How about bending moments? Are they higher during a tail-slide, or are
>>> they higher during a 9 G pull at 150 knots? We're talking about when
>>> everything is done CORRECTLY!
>>>
>>> On the other hand.... what happens if you manage to get into a good tail
>>> slide and then just "let go" of the stick? The result is that it will
>>> SLAM with a very large degree of force right into the control stop.
>>> Anything hooked to the elevator when this happens... such as a
>>> COUNTER-WEIGHT is going to have a HUGE instantaneous load. HUGE.
>>>
>>> Would it be possible to mismanage the aircraft to such a large degree,
>>> then LET go of the stick, and ALLOW it to SLAM into the stop, and when
>>> that happened, would it BE POSSIBLE to incur some type of mechanical
>>> failure? Yep... I do believe that is possible, and it can happen if the
>>> pilot is not prepared for the forces that can happen in advance!
>>>
>>> That said, I fully agree that it is entirely possible for a pilot to put
>>> an aircraft into a situation where it exceeds its design limits and
>>> something breaks.
>>>
>>> I have watched tail-slides being taught in a YAK-52. I have performed
>>> tail-slides in a YAK-50. I disagree with anyone that says that the YAK
>>> model aircraft is not safe to do tail-slides... politely and
>>> respectfully disagree. The expert I believe in is my aerobatic coach.
>>> Who anyone else believes is their own personal choice and I respect that
>>> too. If you have doubts, THEN DO NOT DO THEM!
>>>
>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:37 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark,
>>> I'll look more for what I referred to, but what Dennis relates in a
>>>
>>> follow up is what I had heard, "everything but tailslides". The only
>>> obvious difference would be the gross weight of the -52 with a crew of
>>> two
>>> compared to the -50 and other YAKs, Sukhois which wouldn't put the
>>> potential
>>> stress on the fabric surfaces. Whoever initially told me that, my
>>> response
>>> was "what about the -52TW and others that have metal clad control
>>> surfaces".
>>> They didn't know the answer. It will be interesting to know the "why
>>> not"
>>> if the maneuvers are not recommended or prohibited.
>>>
>>> Mark Davis
>>> N44YK
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
>>> Point, MALS-14 64E"
>>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:50 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>
>>>
>>> Point,
>>>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>> The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
>>>> YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any
>>> impact
>>>> on tail slides.
>>>>
>>>> For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach
>>> tumbles
>>>> and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides
>>> in
>>>> my YAK-50.
>>>>
>>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
>>>> prohibited
>>>> due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I
>>> read
>>>> it
>>>> though.
>>>>
>>>> Mark Davis
>>>> N44YK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Wobschall"
>>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
>>>> like
>>>>> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
>>>>> sure.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>>>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>>>>>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grayson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 23
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|
Dennis,
From my limited experience as a big sissy sitting on an ejection seat
it was the higher backward velocity that had the most violent break and
therefore the highest loads on the airframe, control surfaces and tiny blood
vessels in my eyes. It's those rides when you stay tail down longer than
normal that make you say "OH SH!T! This is going to be a good ride!" One
hand on the stick, one hand on the OH SHIT handle on the canopy bow. I had
to do an out of control ride in a Guppy as part of my instructor syllabus
when I went back to wave A-4's in the training command. I needed to do one
more inverted spin so I went vertical and jammed the stick forward and cross
controlled out of a tail slide. Kind of a backward lomcevak. The ensuing
oscillations were violent enough to rip my seat pan out of the ejection seat
and stick me in the top of the canopy so I got to do my recovery once I got
my hands on the stick enough to establish positive G to get me off the roof!
I told the T-2 IP in the front seat, Lloyd Prince, that we'd better knock it
off because my seat pan wouldn't go completely back down in the seat. Lloyd
commented something about it taking me a little longer than usual to
recover. He told me I needed to do one more upright spin to complete the
flight. I'm not sure he completely understood why I didn't want to do any
more OOC maneuvers. An ejection with a cockeyed seat pan would have broken
my back at the least. After that flight I realized why the Guppies used for
the Out of Control syllabus at VF-126 at Miramar had an additional 6" lap
belt that the plane captain cinched down until it hurt then gave it one more
tug!
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>
> I may not be associated with the vertical speed. Maybe it is the snap-
> over motion into the nose down attitude (from nose up) that exerts the
> stress on the elevator and horizontal stab?
> Dennis
>
> On 5/3/2011 7:00 PM, Mark Davis wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Now I know where I'd seen the prohibition on tail slides before.... in
>> the POH for my YAK. I found an online copy that is the same as the one
>> that came with N44YK. I'm not sure who generated it or if it is correct.
>> I'm sure tailslides have been done safely in YAK 52's by many for years,
>> but I'm still curious why they are listed as prohibited on page 10 of
>> this POH. The link follows:
>>
>> www.yak-52.com/downloads/?YAK52%20POH.doc
>>
>> My copy of the above manual doesn't have the question marks in
>> parenthesis like the link above shows. Maybe Dennis knows the origin of
>> the manual.
>>
>> Oh... for the record, so I can participate in the discussion, I have
>> done tail slides in several aircraft (TA-4J and T-2C), just not in one
>> that has the maneuver prohibited in it's POH (EA-6B NATOPS/SOP and my
>> YAK-52 POH albeit possibly in error). Must be my Navy flight training
>> that makes me heed the "don't do it" stuff.
>>
>> As for the tailslides themselves, I've seen some done that appear to
>> create a much higher than typical backward airspeed. Whether by luck (my
>> case) or skill (Sergei Boriak) those would be the ones that would impart
>> a potentially damaging load on control surfaces. As for your question
>> "Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
>> you tell me", my simple mind goes back to learning as a small child that
>> it wasn't a good idea to stick your hand out of the window of a car at
>> 80 mph fingers pointing forward then deflecting your hand contrary to
>> the prevailing wind. Nearly getting my shoulder yanked out of the socket
>> taught me that fairing your hand downwind put a less rapid load on my
>> joints. Back to my flight training....don't yank on the G (or rolling
>> pulls).
>>
>> So, after all that, I still would be interested in knowing why SOMEONE
>> deemed it apparently unsafe in a YAK 52 enough to include in a POH.
>> Anecdotal evidence that the maneuver has been performed routinely
>> without causing structural failure doesn't mean it hasn't been exceeding
>> load limits that someone, somewhere thinks is excessive. If it came from
>> someone in the design, manufacture, or writing the initial operating
>> limitations of the YAK 52 then I'm interested.
>>
>> Thanks for your input. I enjoy the discussion.
>>
>> Mark Davis
>> N44YK
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:18 PM
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>
>>
>>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>> Ok, let's talk conjecture, just for the fun of it.
>>>
>>> When an aircraft flies backwards in a tail-slide, what is the estimated
>>> speed and airflow over the control surfaces as it makes the reverse?
>>> Any thoughts on that? Before we talk about it, let's limit this
>>> discussion please to pilots who have actually performed tail-slides in
>>> any make or model of aircraft.
>>>
>>> Now. How about a snap roll. What are the speed and flow forces (that
>>> would be AIR LOADS) over the control surfaces themselves when an
>>> aircraft performs an accelerated snap roll. Let's focus on elevator and
>>> rudder please.
>>>
>>> Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
>>> you tell me.
>>>
>>> The air load on the control surfaces during a tail slide are backwards.
>>> Does this make them higher? We are talking about the actual pressure
>>> induced air loads on the surfaces of these controls. Remember that
>>> speed through the air during a tail slide is in reality very slow as
>>> compared to normal flight.
>>>
>>> How about bending moments? Are they higher during a tail-slide, or are
>>> they higher during a 9 G pull at 150 knots? We're talking about when
>>> everything is done CORRECTLY!
>>>
>>> On the other hand.... what happens if you manage to get into a good tail
>>> slide and then just "let go" of the stick? The result is that it will
>>> SLAM with a very large degree of force right into the control stop.
>>> Anything hooked to the elevator when this happens... such as a
>>> COUNTER-WEIGHT is going to have a HUGE instantaneous load. HUGE.
>>>
>>> Would it be possible to mismanage the aircraft to such a large degree,
>>> then LET go of the stick, and ALLOW it to SLAM into the stop, and when
>>> that happened, would it BE POSSIBLE to incur some type of mechanical
>>> failure? Yep... I do believe that is possible, and it can happen if the
>>> pilot is not prepared for the forces that can happen in advance!
>>>
>>> That said, I fully agree that it is entirely possible for a pilot to put
>>> an aircraft into a situation where it exceeds its design limits and
>>> something breaks.
>>>
>>> I have watched tail-slides being taught in a YAK-52. I have performed
>>> tail-slides in a YAK-50. I disagree with anyone that says that the YAK
>>> model aircraft is not safe to do tail-slides... politely and
>>> respectfully disagree. The expert I believe in is my aerobatic coach.
>>> Who anyone else believes is their own personal choice and I respect that
>>> too. If you have doubts, THEN DO NOT DO THEM!
>>>
>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:37 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark,
>>> I'll look more for what I referred to, but what Dennis relates in a
>>>
>>> follow up is what I had heard, "everything but tailslides". The only
>>> obvious difference would be the gross weight of the -52 with a crew of
>>> two
>>> compared to the -50 and other YAKs, Sukhois which wouldn't put the
>>> potential
>>> stress on the fabric surfaces. Whoever initially told me that, my
>>> response
>>> was "what about the -52TW and others that have metal clad control
>>> surfaces".
>>> They didn't know the answer. It will be interesting to know the "why
>>> not"
>>> if the maneuvers are not recommended or prohibited.
>>>
>>> Mark Davis
>>> N44YK
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
>>> Point, MALS-14 64E"
>>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:50 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>
>>>
>>> Point,
>>>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>> The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
>>>> YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any
>>> impact
>>>> on tail slides.
>>>>
>>>> For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach
>>> tumbles
>>>> and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides
>>> in
>>>> my YAK-50.
>>>>
>>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
>>>> prohibited
>>>> due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I
>>> read
>>>> it
>>>> though.
>>>>
>>>> Mark Davis
>>>> N44YK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Wobschall"
>>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
>>>> like
>>>>> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
>>>>> sure.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>>>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>>>>>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grayson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 24
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>From my almost zero experience with tail slides I am really not qualified to
comment on this.
But I do have one in my chequered past that I remember well.
It was about 1956 in my first "warbird", a Fairchild PT 26. trying to teach
myself the hammerhead (there were no aerobatic instructors back then).
The PT had about the same vertical penetration as a bowling ball and ran out
of steam immediately. Definitely an "OH SHIT" moment.
Full back stick with both hands and feet locked on the pedals. The initial
recover went well past the vertical before it was done.
No damage to me or the aircraft but I swore never to do that again.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Davis" <markdavis@wbsnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
> Dennis,
> From my limited experience as a big sissy sitting on an ejection seat
> it was the higher backward velocity that had the most violent break and
> therefore the highest loads on the airframe, control surfaces and tiny
> blood vessels in my eyes. It's those rides when you stay tail down longer
> than normal that make you say "OH SH!T! This is going to be a good ride!"
> One hand on the stick, one hand on the OH SHIT handle on the canopy bow.
> I had to do an out of control ride in a Guppy as part of my instructor
> syllabus when I went back to wave A-4's in the training command. I needed
> to do one more inverted spin so I went vertical and jammed the stick
> forward and cross controlled out of a tail slide. Kind of a backward
> lomcevak. The ensuing oscillations were violent enough to rip my seat pan
> out of the ejection seat and stick me in the top of the canopy so I got to
> do my recovery once I got my hands on the stick enough to establish
> positive G to get me off the roof! I told the T-2 IP in the front seat,
> Lloyd Prince, that we'd better knock it off because my seat pan wouldn't
> go completely back down in the seat. Lloyd commented something about it
> taking me a little longer than usual to recover. He told me I needed to
> do one more upright spin to complete the flight. I'm not sure he
> completely understood why I didn't want to do any more OOC maneuvers. An
> ejection with a cockeyed seat pan would have broken my back at the least.
> After that flight I realized why the Guppies used for the Out of Control
> syllabus at VF-126 at Miramar had an additional 6" lap belt that the plane
> captain cinched down until it hurt then gave it one more tug!
>
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>
>
>> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>>
>> I may not be associated with the vertical speed. Maybe it is the snap-
>> over motion into the nose down attitude (from nose up) that exerts the
>> stress on the elevator and horizontal stab?
>> Dennis
>>
>> On 5/3/2011 7:00 PM, Mark Davis wrote:
>>>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> Now I know where I'd seen the prohibition on tail slides before.... in
>>> the POH for my YAK. I found an online copy that is the same as the one
>>> that came with N44YK. I'm not sure who generated it or if it is correct.
>>> I'm sure tailslides have been done safely in YAK 52's by many for years,
>>> but I'm still curious why they are listed as prohibited on page 10 of
>>> this POH. The link follows:
>>>
>>> www.yak-52.com/downloads/?YAK52%20POH.doc
>>>
>>> My copy of the above manual doesn't have the question marks in
>>> parenthesis like the link above shows. Maybe Dennis knows the origin of
>>> the manual.
>>>
>>> Oh... for the record, so I can participate in the discussion, I have
>>> done tail slides in several aircraft (TA-4J and T-2C), just not in one
>>> that has the maneuver prohibited in it's POH (EA-6B NATOPS/SOP and my
>>> YAK-52 POH albeit possibly in error). Must be my Navy flight training
>>> that makes me heed the "don't do it" stuff.
>>>
>>> As for the tailslides themselves, I've seen some done that appear to
>>> create a much higher than typical backward airspeed. Whether by luck (my
>>> case) or skill (Sergei Boriak) those would be the ones that would impart
>>> a potentially damaging load on control surfaces. As for your question
>>> "Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
>>> you tell me", my simple mind goes back to learning as a small child that
>>> it wasn't a good idea to stick your hand out of the window of a car at
>>> 80 mph fingers pointing forward then deflecting your hand contrary to
>>> the prevailing wind. Nearly getting my shoulder yanked out of the socket
>>> taught me that fairing your hand downwind put a less rapid load on my
>>> joints. Back to my flight training....don't yank on the G (or rolling
>>> pulls).
>>>
>>> So, after all that, I still would be interested in knowing why SOMEONE
>>> deemed it apparently unsafe in a YAK 52 enough to include in a POH.
>>> Anecdotal evidence that the maneuver has been performed routinely
>>> without causing structural failure doesn't mean it hasn't been exceeding
>>> load limits that someone, somewhere thinks is excessive. If it came from
>>> someone in the design, manufacture, or writing the initial operating
>>> limitations of the YAK 52 then I'm interested.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your input. I enjoy the discussion.
>>>
>>> Mark Davis
>>> N44YK
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
>>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:18 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>
>>>
>>>> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>
>>>> Ok, let's talk conjecture, just for the fun of it.
>>>>
>>>> When an aircraft flies backwards in a tail-slide, what is the estimated
>>>> speed and airflow over the control surfaces as it makes the reverse?
>>>> Any thoughts on that? Before we talk about it, let's limit this
>>>> discussion please to pilots who have actually performed tail-slides in
>>>> any make or model of aircraft.
>>>>
>>>> Now. How about a snap roll. What are the speed and flow forces (that
>>>> would be AIR LOADS) over the control surfaces themselves when an
>>>> aircraft performs an accelerated snap roll. Let's focus on elevator and
>>>> rudder please.
>>>>
>>>> Which is higher? Tail Slide Air Loads, or Snap Roll Air Loads? Well,
>>>> you tell me.
>>>>
>>>> The air load on the control surfaces during a tail slide are backwards.
>>>> Does this make them higher? We are talking about the actual pressure
>>>> induced air loads on the surfaces of these controls. Remember that
>>>> speed through the air during a tail slide is in reality very slow as
>>>> compared to normal flight.
>>>>
>>>> How about bending moments? Are they higher during a tail-slide, or are
>>>> they higher during a 9 G pull at 150 knots? We're talking about when
>>>> everything is done CORRECTLY!
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand.... what happens if you manage to get into a good
>>>> tail
>>>> slide and then just "let go" of the stick? The result is that it will
>>>> SLAM with a very large degree of force right into the control stop.
>>>> Anything hooked to the elevator when this happens... such as a
>>>> COUNTER-WEIGHT is going to have a HUGE instantaneous load. HUGE.
>>>>
>>>> Would it be possible to mismanage the aircraft to such a large degree,
>>>> then LET go of the stick, and ALLOW it to SLAM into the stop, and when
>>>> that happened, would it BE POSSIBLE to incur some type of mechanical
>>>> failure? Yep... I do believe that is possible, and it can happen if the
>>>> pilot is not prepared for the forces that can happen in advance!
>>>>
>>>> That said, I fully agree that it is entirely possible for a pilot to
>>>> put
>>>> an aircraft into a situation where it exceeds its design limits and
>>>> something breaks.
>>>>
>>>> I have watched tail-slides being taught in a YAK-52. I have performed
>>>> tail-slides in a YAK-50. I disagree with anyone that says that the YAK
>>>> model aircraft is not safe to do tail-slides... politely and
>>>> respectfully disagree. The expert I believe in is my aerobatic coach.
>>>> Who anyone else believes is their own personal choice and I respect
>>>> that
>>>> too. If you have doubts, THEN DO NOT DO THEM!
>>>>
>>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:37 PM
>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark,
>>>> I'll look more for what I referred to, but what Dennis relates in a
>>>>
>>>> follow up is what I had heard, "everything but tailslides". The only
>>>> obvious difference would be the gross weight of the -52 with a crew of
>>>> two
>>>> compared to the -50 and other YAKs, Sukhois which wouldn't put the
>>>> potential
>>>> stress on the fabric surfaces. Whoever initially told me that, my
>>>> response
>>>> was "what about the -52TW and others that have metal clad control
>>>> surfaces".
>>>> They didn't know the answer. It will be interesting to know the "why
>>>> not"
>>>> if the maneuvers are not recommended or prohibited.
>>>>
>>>> Mark Davis
>>>> N44YK
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
>>>> Point, MALS-14 64E"
>>>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Point,
>>>>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>> The Sukhoi 26, 29, and 31 have fabric control surfaces. So does the
>>>>> YAK-50. I honestly don't think fabric control surfaces have any
>>>> impact
>>>>> on tail slides.
>>>>>
>>>>> For what it is worth, I have personally seen Sergei Boriak coach
>>>> tumbles
>>>>> and tail-slides in YAK-52's. I have personally done many tail-slides
>>>> in
>>>>> my YAK-50.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark Bitterlich
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:26 PM
>>>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought I remembered reading something about tailslides being
>>>>> prohibited
>>>>> due to fabric control surfaces on the YAK 52. Can't recall where I
>>>> read
>>>>> it
>>>>> though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark Davis
>>>>> N44YK
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Wobschall"
>>>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>>>> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Tailslides
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <eric@buffaloskyline.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tail slides are verboten for structural reasons in some akro planes
>>>>> like
>>>>>> the Great Lakes (expertise not being the issue). I'd want to know for
>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 3, 2011, at 1:06 PM, Grayson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So assuming pilot experience isn't a factor they are ok to perform?
>>>>>>> No structural limitations to perform them? Is that stated somewhere,
>>>>>>> perhaps in the 'RU Manual'? Is a copy of it available online?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Hold is is right :) Especially to the stick and rudder..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Grayson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338776#338776
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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