Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:22 AM - Re: Re: ditching a low wing radial (Andrew Fairfax)
2. 05:33 AM - Re: ditching a low wing radial (n395v)
3. 05:50 AM - Re: Re: ditching a low wing radial (cjpilot710@aol.com)
4. 06:46 AM - Re: ditching a low wing radial (barryhancock)
5. 07:01 AM - Shipping leg plates (Cliff Coy)
6. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: ditching a low wing radial (RICHARD VOLKER)
7. 08:23 AM - Ditching a CJ in water (Paul Dumoret)
8. 10:08 AM - audio systems for helmets (Joseph Colquitt)
9. 10:30 AM - Re: audio systems for helmets (Byron Fox)
10. 11:42 AM - Re: Ditching a CJ in water (doug sapp)
11. 04:38 PM - M14-P to CJ 6 (Chris Wise)
12. 04:44 PM - bill blackwell (Chris Wise)
13. 05:02 PM - New Whirl Wind Aviation M-14P Composite 3-Blade Propeller (WhirlWind)
14. 05:46 PM - Re: bill blackwell (doug sapp)
15. 05:47 PM - Re: Shipping leg plates (doug sapp)
16. 10:18 PM - Re: M14-P to CJ 6 (Byron Fox)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: ditching a low wing radial |
Hmmm, as a long-time Yak list lurker whose true home is on the Rocket forum....(but
who's a part owner in a Yak 3 in NZ, close to being finished)....
I've had two real no-$%@# engine failures. (Carb ice issues - sorted now.) First
one, a long time ago now, I was mainly lucky - was pretty inexperienced, but
I knew enough to keep my airspeed up, did OK, but thank you Lady Luck. After
that I practiced FLWOPs a lot. Second real one was in a very narrow canyon, in
the mountains. Managed to slew her onto a river bank with almost no damage to
aircraft and none to self. STILL quite a bit of luck - but constant practice
allowed me to be in the position to benefit from luck. As one of my warbird CFIs
likes to say, "the more I practice, the luckier I get". I was AMAZED, both
times but particularly the first, how my mind just went blank, and I forget nearly
everything I'd been trained to do. Panic can really do a number on your
training, so it's gotta become AUTOMATIC - which means, as Barry says, constant
practice. And, I'd add, an appropriate mindset.
The thing with piston warbirds is that they are reliable - but they're not perfectly,
100% reliable. Engines do quit, for all sorts of reasons. I was shocked,
the first time it happened, at how bad my mind was at reminding me what to do.
The only thing I knew, cos I "knew it in my bones" - was airspeed, airspeed,
airspeed. It was so shocking and frightening - partly cos in both cases serious
injury or worse seemed inevitable - that I forgot the stuff I'd been taught
about landing with a failed engine. Just clean forgot - only remembered on the
ground. Made me realise that the key is to practice over and over again, and
again....and again.....so that even in a panic situation, you STILL remember
the basics. It is indeed really good for one's general flying skills, albeit
that it requires careful engine handling. It's also worth remembering - and practicing
for - the fact that flying in inhospitable terrain may mean getting the
aircraft into a spot which isn't big enough for an actual landing. In general,
whatever one is flying into, if it's flattish, and one has zero rate of descent
and minimum airspeed on touchdown, it'll generally be survivable. (Not sure
if that applies to trees though!)
Ditching? An important issue. Water is WAY harder than I used to think. (Trust
me on that :) Ditching a heavy warbird, actually any aircraft, is a big deal.
Worth really thinking about, and planning, again so it becomes automatic, so when
the real thing happens, and the white noise takes over one's brain, it's still
possible to get it more or less right. A lot of aircraft do turn turtle,
although a retractable has a good chance of staying right way up. (Will still
be a big deceleration though, which can cause all sorts of injuries - another
reason to use a helmet.) I won't try and issue a lecture on how to ditch - there
are many people who know a lot more than me - but again, practice and mindset,
I reckon, is crucial.
I fly over Cook Strait, in New Zealand, every week or so. Often I take the direct
route, which means quite a while over the sea. In the spirit of "I'd rather
be over-prepared than feel very silly", I always wear a life jacket, take a raft
and flares, have a knife in my pocket to cut straps etc and (this is an easy
step which could make a huge difference), a canopy-breaking tool, and always
have a tiny "pony bottle" in the leg pocket of my flight suit. It's a small
scuba bottle that gives me about 20 breaths if I need it. (eg, getting out of
an upside down aircraft that's full of water, possibly while injured.) It's standard
issue for most military flight crews flying over water, and I figure the
aircraft doesn't know if it's ditching with a military pilot or a civvie :)
I'd do the same if I was flying over Lake Michigan, or whatever...
And, for what it's worth, Elmar, I'd NEVER take the trees over water. Unless they
are remarkably small trees, or have clearings in them. Flying in inhospitable
terrain can mean some very difficult choices if the fan goes quiet - but trees
are, in general, kind of the very worst place one could force-land, I think.
There are a number of problems with crashing in trees, mainly complications
of, um, gravity and physics. I reckon a pony bottle and a good axe, plus disciplining
oneself to undo the canopy just before ditching, would make the water
a much less dangerous option, particularly in an aircraft with the stall speed
of a Nanchang/Yak, which makes for a pretty low speed if done more or less into
wind. (Although beware the wind/swell interaction - best not to land right
into a swell, whatever the wind is doing.) There's no exact right or wrong answers,
of course - just lots of free opinions - and people who've survived - and
got hurt - in both situations.
I hope that' s helpful. Not looking to spark any arguments, just sharing my thoughts...
Andrew
________________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Elmar [elmar.h@shaw.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 6:12 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: ditching a low wing radial
Thank you everyone who has responded
to my posting, very much appreciated.
I live on Vancouver Island and we have nothing
but big rocks, tall conifers and lots of water.
Forced landings around here are a kind of Russian
roulette.
The other day I had the pleasure to meet a
radial engine pilot with 26,000+ hours (who
owns a very nice Nanchang as well). As far as
I've understood him, I would not have the best
of chances to survive ditching a CJ due the
NACA cowling and the cockpit/canopy design,
he rather would try to put it down in the trees.
Those are merrymaking and backslapping
prospects, eh?
cheers
Elmar
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: ditching a low wing radial |
Lots of opinions about ditching in the drink vs trees, gear up, gear down, etc.
Below is a good read on actual statistics relative to water landings.
http://www.equipped.org/ditchingmyths.htm
--------
Milt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341576#341576
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: ditching a low wing radial |
Elmar,
Quite frankly I'd go for the water. I can't see where the cowl or the
cockpit would effect the out come any differently. I live in Florida. If I
only have a 'choice' of trees or water, I'll take the water any day (close
to shore, cause I can't swim far) :-]
In a lot of ditchings, the cowling may or may not stay in tacked at
impact. It doesn't matter the design (radial or otherwise) either. As for the
CJ canopy, I would love to have a mechanism to be able to jettison it. If
it does not lock back good enough, it could slam forward at impact. Other
than that, it might take a ditching OK.
Not all aircraft ditch the same. There are many variables in a ditching.
"Sea state" is one. Airspeed and aircraft attitude another. And aircraft
design. You can have two different aircraft in the same weight and
airspeed class, one will take to water like a duck while other makes a ditching
very dangerous. One only has to look at the B-17 and B-24. Ditching a B-24
with its very light sliding bomb bay doors that would crush in at water
impact, usually meant the fuselage would brake behind the wing. One vet told
me of his B-24 ditching off Italy in a clam sea, that the airplane broke
and sank with-in 10 seconds. There is a story of a B-17 ditching where the
airplane had to be sunk by naval gun fire!
A good friend of mine ditched a F4U. (Last person to do so) I asked him
about the ditching. The sea was about calm (less than 2 foot chop). Since
the engine quite at low altitude, he didn't have time to pick a good
ditching heading. He tighten his straps and open the canopy. At impact the
airplane swung around. He did not get injured in any way. He undid his straps
and stepped out. A near by boat picked him up before the airplane sank in
90 feet of water.
There is a very good video of a T-28 ditching into Tampa bay in April this
year. Just a couple hundred feet at most from the end of the runway.
Smooth water, GEAR AND FLAP DOWN! (he had an engine failure). The pilot
stalled into the water from about 5 feet. At impact you could see the cowling
fly off. The airplane went inverted and stayed that way. The water was
very shallow at that spot, so it did not sink. Both pilot and GIB were fine.
I am personally aware only one ditching that ever went wrong. During a
S&R mission with CAP in CT, my crew and I found a Piper Cherokee in the
bottom of a pond. The 4 occupants (1 man 2 women & a dog) had drowned. The
airplane had very little damage (someone told me it was repaired. I doubt it).
The reason they drowned, was because the door was held shut by the
collapse of the leading edge root fairing, that had folded back against the door.
(They could have kicked out side windows BTW)
In ancient times back at Pan Am, once a year we'd spend a whole day on
ditching (After all we did a LOT of over water flying). And any military
pilot, can tell you, specially the transport ones, they go into great detail
about ditching (You see they don't have those nice bang seats). Guys who
come up though the "non professional" ranks usually don't get exposed to that
type of training.
Anyway if its trees, rocks, or water, I'll go for the water. If its a
field or water - - most likely the field. (After all the EPA will be breather
down my neck). ;-\
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 5/31/2011 2:15:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
elmar.h@shaw.ca writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: Elmar <elmar.h@shaw.ca>
Thank you everyone who has responded
to my posting, very much appreciated.
I live on Vancouver Island and we have nothing
but big rocks, tall conifers and lots of water.
Forced landings around here are a kind of Russian
roulette.
The other day I had the pleasure to meet a
radial engine pilot with 26,000+ hours (who
owns a very nice Nanchang as well). As far as
I've understood him, I would not have the best
of chances to survive ditching a CJ due the
NACA cowling and the cockpit/canopy design,
he rather would try to put it down in the trees.
Those are merrymaking and backslapping
prospects, eh?
cheers
Elmar
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: ditching a low wing radial |
While I personally hate anonymous posts and therefore rarely recognize them, the
one by N395V says it all here. My guess is "ditching" into the trees has a
somewhat lower survival rate. I have no idea what your friend is talking about
when he says "due to the design of the cowl", makes no sense to me. I live
in the western Rockies....lots of dry lake beds and ag fields....good places for
"off site" landings around Salt Lake...but east of here it quickly gets pretty
inhospitable for a forced landing....without a definitivly better option in
sight, I'm taking the silk elevator.
Gear up v. Gear down....when you look at the Yak-50 engine failure video from England,
I can see very little reason to ever try to land with the gear down....you
stop quickly (less than 100 yards) with minimal damage and minimize the chance
of flipping on your back. Speaking of on your back....the guys survived
the T-28 splash down even when the plane went on it's back...not something as
likely to happen on dry ground.
In fact, I just ferried a CJ over the Sierras. My options were pine trees, maybe
highway 80 on some stretches, and lakes...which were partly frozen over.
In my mind if my engine quit and I couldn't get to a straight stretch of highway,
I was jumping. I envisioned myself ditching in one of those lakes, surviving
the ditching, and then dying as I struggled to get through the ice in the
lake....
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
(909) 606-4444
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341588#341588
Message 5
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| Subject: | Shipping leg plates |
*Hi all,
I'm looking for a set of 3 shipping leg plates for a guy who needs to ship
out an engine.
All of ours are in use at the moment!
These are the plate adapters which mount to the engine ring.
Thanks!
Cliff
*
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: ditching a low wing radial |
Spitfires and Hurricanes had about a 75 % fatality rate in water ditchings. T
he radiators grabbed and the aircraft would plunge under water, giving the p
ilot a face full of water at about 80 mph. They were instructed to open cano
py before impact.
A Pitts went in the water and Assumed a vertical position, went all the wa
y under , then popped up with canopy above water, still vertical. The un-inj
ured occupants only then released the canopy and escaped.
If my Sukhoi quits over water, I will bail out if able.
Rick VOLKER
Sent from my iPhone
On May 31, 2011, at 8:47 AM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> Elmar,
>
> Quite frankly I'd go for the water. I can't see where the cowl or the coc
kpit would effect the out come any differently. I live in Florida. If I on
ly have a 'choice' of trees or water, I'll take the water any day (close to s
hore, cause I can't swim far) :-]
>
> In a lot of ditchings, the cowling may or may not stay in tacked at impact
. It doesn't matter the design (radial or otherwise) either. As for the CJ
canopy, I would love to have a mechanism to be able to jettison it. If it d
oes not lock back good enough, it could slam forward at impact. Other than t
hat, it might take a ditching OK.
>
> Not all aircraft ditch the same. There are many variables in a ditching.
"Sea state" is one. Airspeed and aircraft attitude another. And aircraft d
esign. You can have two different aircraft in the same weight and airspeed c
lass, one will take to water like a duck while other makes a ditching very d
angerous. One only has to look at the B-17 and B-24. Ditching a B-24 with i
ts very light sliding bomb bay doors that would crush in at water impact, us
ually meant the fuselage would brake behind the wing. One vet told me of hi
s B-24 ditching off Italy in a clam sea, that the airplane broke and sank wi
th-in 10 seconds. There is a story of a B-17 ditching where the airplane ha
d to be sunk by naval gun fire!
>
> A good friend of mine ditched a F4U. (Last person to do so) I asked him a
bout the ditching. The sea was about calm (less than 2 foot chop). Since t
he engine quite at low altitude, he didn't have time to pick a good ditching
heading. He tighten his straps and open the canopy. At impact the airplan
e swung around. He did not get injured in any way. He undid his straps and
stepped out. A near by boat picked him up before the airplane sank in 90 f
eet of water.
>
> There is a very good video of a T-28 ditching into Tampa bay in April this
year. Just a couple hundred feet at most from the end of the runway. Smoo
th water, GEAR AND FLAP DOWN! (he had an engine failure). The pilot stall
ed into the water from about 5 feet. At impact you could see the cowling fl
y off. The airplane went inverted and stayed that way. The water was very s
hallow at that spot, so it did not sink. Both pilot and GIB were fine.
>
> I am personally aware only one ditching that ever went wrong. During a S&
R mission with CAP in CT, my crew and I found a Piper Cherokee in the bottom
of a pond. The 4 occupants (1 man 2 women & a dog) had drowned. The airpl
ane had very little damage (someone told me it was repaired. I doubt it). T
he reason they drowned, was because the door was held shut by the collapse o
f the leading edge root fairing, that had folded back against the door. (Th
ey could have kicked out side windows BTW)
>
> In ancient times back at Pan Am, once a year we'd spend a whole day on dit
ching (After all we did a LOT of over water flying). And any military pilot
, can tell you, specially the transport ones, they go into great detail abou
t ditching (You see they don't have those nice bang seats). Guys who come u
p though the "non professional" ranks usually don't get exposed to that type
of training.
>
> Anyway if its trees, rocks, or water, I'll go for the water. If its a fie
ld or water - - most likely the field. (After all the EPA will be breather d
own my neck). ;-\
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
> In a message dated 5/31/2011 2:15:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, elmar.h@s
haw.ca writes:
>
> Thank you everyone who has responded
> to my posting, very much appreciated.
>
> I live on Vancouver Island and we have nothing
> but big rocks, tall conifers and lots of water.
> Forced landings around here are a kind of Russian
> roulette.
>
> The other day I had the pleasure to meet a
> radial engine pilot with 26,000+ hours (who
> owns a very nice Nanchang as well). As far as
> I've understood him, I would not have the best
> of chances to survive ditching a CJ due the
> NACA cowling and the cockpit/canopy design,
> he rather would try to put it down in the trees.
>
> Those are merrymaking and backslapping
> prospects, =====================
==========================
=e ties Day =====================
==========================
= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ============
==========================
========== - List Contribution Web Site sp;
==================
==========================
======
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Ditching a CJ in water |
Elmar,
Having gone in the trees once, I'll take the water gear up anytime!!
Paul Dumoret
Message 8
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| Subject: | audio systems for helmets |
In answer to the query about helmet audio installations, I have had good
experience with Headsets Inc. They installed an ANR system in my helmet
for me - reasonable prices, professional work, great to respond to
queries. They later modified the system when I asked for a change. I
moved from simple battery power with manual switching to auto-shutoff.
Both have bailout cords and the ANR works well for me.
There are others who supply audio systems and parts, and modify helmets
with whom I have had NO good experiences (although others have).
Headsets Inc 's website link is below. They have always been very
responsive to me (and others that I know of).
http://www.headsetsinc.com/
I have no connections with either outfit other than great experiences
with one and lousy experiences with the other.
Joe
CJ6A N420RB
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: audio systems for helmets |
Joe and I have had the same excellent experience with Headsets Inc. My helme
t installation has performed flawlessly for the past 10 years. Because I've w
anted to carry the helmet to other aircraft, I've used a battery pack which i
s Velcroed to the back of the helmet.
...Blitz
Sent from my iPhone
On May 31, 2011, at 10:08 AM, "Joseph Colquitt" <jcolquit@law.ua.edu> wrote:
> In answer to the query about helmet audio installations, I have had good e
xperience with Headsets Inc. They installed an ANR system in my helmet for m
e =93 reasonable prices, professional work, great to respond to querie
s. They later modified the system when I asked for a change. I moved from si
mple battery power with manual switching to auto-shutoff. Both have bailout c
ords and the ANR works well for me.
>
>
>
> There are others who supply audio systems and parts, and modify helmets wi
th whom I have had NO good experiences (although others have).
>
>
>
> Headsets Inc =98s website link is below. They have always been very r
esponsive to me (and others that I know of).
>
>
>
> http://www.headsetsinc.com/
>
>
>
> I have no connections with either outfit other than great experiences with
one and lousy experiences with the other.
>
>
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> CJ6A N420RB
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Ditching a CJ in water |
Paul,
I think I would have to agree, dam trees always seem to be firmly attached
to the ground!
Also very few ditchings result in fires.
I'd much rather take my chances with swimming after a *controlled* approach
to a (hopefully) flat surface at *minimum* touch down speed. Trying to pull
off a controlled approach with minimum touch down speed into rising terrain
is not easy. Add trees and a few big rocks and you have really got your
hands full. At least with water you can normally land into the wind and
can arrive at the touch down point at the speed and attitude of your
choosing. With big water where you often find high waves or big troughs,
things can be different.
As Barry stated, you must *practice*, it's even better if you can get some
instruction. Those of us who already have that hat would encourage everyone
of you to do simulated engine outs so you will have some familiarity with
the procedures when it happens to you. Those who that think it won't happen
to you are wrong, it's a matter of time, if you fly you WILL have some type
of emergency that will require you to know your engine out procedures and
while reading the available info and knowing your aircrafts numbers is a
good start it is simply not enough when everything goes quiet.
I was indeed very disappointed to discover that even with the offer of free
fuel and free instruction, there were no takers for engine out training at
ARS X.
What does that say about us? I would be interested in reading your
opinions.
Hats off to Elmar for starting the thread about ditching.
Best to all
Doug
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Paul Dumoret <3bar@telus.net> wrote:
> Elmar,
>
> Having gone in the trees once, I'll take the water gear up anytime!!
>
> Paul Dumoret
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 11
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G'Day All,
Can whoever has repowered a CJ 6 with M14-P please advise the pitfalls, what
to look for, what parts and hoses and so on are needed, where to obtain
these required parts?
I have a friend who is about to transplant the M14 -P and would be grateful
for any information and advice.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
Message 12
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G'Day all,
Can someone please advise email and contact phone number for Bill Blackwell.
Thanks and cheers,
Chris.
Message 13
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| Subject: | New Whirl Wind Aviation M-14P Composite 3-Blade Propeller |
Whirl Wind Aviation is now taking orders for the 3-Blade all composite constant
speed propeller for the M-14P power aircraft. This is an 260cm diameter full
aerobatic (counter-weighted) constant speed propeller.
Here are some pictures from final flight testing on Pete Taylor's Yak 52. This
propeller is the evolution of the popular 3-Blade composite-wood core constant
speed propeller previously sold by Whirl Wind.
(Also Check Out Kendall Simpson's Pitts Model 12 flying the new 3-Blade all composite propeller www.acronut.com)
Call Whirl Wind Aviation in Ohio for pricing and availability. 440-275-1540
www.whirlwindaviation.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341666#341666
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/new_yak_prop_009b_227.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/new_yak_prop_012a_145.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/new_yak_prop_008a_617.jpg
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: bill blackwell |
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Shipping leg plates |
Cliff,
I'm sure I have a set around here. If you don't find anything closer to
you, let me know.
Best,
Doug
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 6:59 AM, Cliff Coy <cliff.coy@gmail.com> wrote:
> *Hi all,
> I'm looking for a set of 3 shipping leg plates for a guy who needs to ship
> out an engine.
> All of ours are in use at the moment!
>
> These are the plate adapters which mount to the engine ring.
>
> Thanks!
> Cliff
> *
> --
> Clifford Coy
> Border Air Ltd.
> 629 Airport Rd.
> Swanton, VT 05488
> 802-868-2822 TEL
> 802-868-4465 FAX
> Skype: Cliff.Coy
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: M14-P to CJ 6 |
Chris,
Go to the RPA Online Store and buy the Housai to M14P Craig Payne's conversi
on guide.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 31, 2011, at 4:34 PM, "Chris Wise" <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
> G=99Day All,
>
>
>
> Can whoever has repowered a CJ 6 with M14-P please advise the pitfalls, wh
at to look for, what parts and hoses and so on are needed, where to obtain t
hese required parts?
>
> I have a friend who is about to transplant the M14 =93P and would be
grateful for any information and advice.
>
>
>
> Thanks and cheers,
>
> Chris.
>
>
>
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