Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:13 PM - Re: Duxford Mid-Air (cjpilot710@aol.com)
2. 02:07 PM - Re: Duxford Mid-Air (Drew Blahnick)
3. 02:25 PM - Re: Duxford Mid-Air (Harv)
4. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: Duxford Mid-Air (Byron Fox)
5. 03:40 PM - Re: Re: Duxford Mid-Air (Brian Lloyd)
6. 05:10 PM - Re: Re: Duxford Mid-Air (cjpilot710@aol.com)
7. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: Duxford Mid-Air (Roger Baker)
8. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Duxford Mid-Air (William Halverson)
9. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Duxford Mid-Air (Brian Lloyd)
10. 07:44 PM - Re: Re: Duxford Mid-Air (Roger Baker)
11. 08:40 PM - Re: Re: Duxford Mid-Air (cd001633)
12. 09:21 PM - Re: Duxford Mid-Air (Drew Blahnick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
Suzy Bass up at Deland or Kay Larken is the one I go to.
I think Hoots right, dash 2 went to tight and looked like he pulled a lot
harder than Lead. He obviously didn't have him in sight. I personally
stay away from nonstandard pitch outs. Boring I know, but unless you practice
with the guys its really foolish to try with strangers. All those guys
are high timers, but airplanes fly differently and the performance includes
turning diameters as well as speed. A 2 G pull in one airplane will not be
the same as a 2 G pull in another.
Does anyone want to debate the parachute rules?
Pappy
In a message dated 7/11/2011 3:13:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dblahnick@gmail.com writes:
Excellent video lesson for folks to see (RPA should post this for their
membership), also a good example of having a parachute you can trust!
Thanks Hank. My CJ is heading to New S. Beach for a new compressor
install...anyone know where I can get a chute repacked up there in Daytona area?
Drew
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Hank Gibson <_hkgibby@yahoo.com_
(mailto:hkgibby@yahoo.com) > wrote:
Red Stars-
Tough loss of a P-51 in Duxford at the annual Flying Legends airshow.
Looks to me like dash 2 (the Skyraider) lost sight of his lead. Contributing
factors; minimal break interval, no pause before the roll and the lead not
pulling hard enough; maybe looking for interval, but definitely fault of
the Skyraider from what I see. As we always say, the key is to brief it
up!! Lucky nobody hurt! Check it out:
_http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-14101641_
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-14101641)
Hoot
Hank Gibson
_904-738-3240_ (tel:904-738-3240) Mobile
_904-213-1760_ (tel:904-213-1760) Home
_hkgibby@yahoo.com_ (mailto:hkgibby@yahoo.com)
_hkgibson@fnf.com_ (mailto:hkgibson@fnf.com)
--
Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!
(ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
Whats the rules Pappy (faa)? Is it still reg just to provide passengers
with an inspected chute if were doing aerobatics? as long as im legal with
the suits from the fsdo...
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 11, 2011, at 4:10 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
Suzy Bass up at Deland or Kay Larken is the one I go to.
I think Hoots right, dash 2 went to tight and looked like he pulled a lot
harder than Lead. He obviously didn't have him in sight. I personally stay
away from nonstandard pitch outs. Boring I know, but unless you practice
with the guys its really foolish to try with strangers. All those guys are
high timers, but airplanes fly differently and the performance includes
turning diameters as well as speed. A 2 G pull in one airplane will not be
the same as a 2 G pull in another.
Does anyone want to debate the parachute rules?
Pappy
In a message dated 7/11/2011 3:13:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dblahnick@gmail.com writes:
Excellent video lesson for folks to see (RPA should post this for their
membership), also a good example of having a parachute you can trust!
Thanks Hank. My CJ is heading to New S. Beach for a new compressor
install...anyone know where I can get a chute repacked up there in Daytona
area?
Drew
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Hank Gibson <hkgibby@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Red Stars-
>
> Tough loss of a P-51 in Duxford at the annual Flying Legends airshow.
> Looks to me like dash 2 (the Skyraider) lost sight of his lead.
> Contributing factors; minimal break interval, no pause before the roll and
> the lead not pulling hard enough; maybe looking for interval, but definitely
> fault of the Skyraider from what I see. As we always say, the key is to
> brief it up!! Lucky nobody hurt! Check it out:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-14101641
>
> Hoot
>
> Hank Gibson
> 904-738-3240 Mobile
> 904-213-1760 Home
> hkgibby@yahoo.com
> hkgibson@fnf.com
>
>
--
*Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!*
*(ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)*
*
*
*
*
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
Hi
Unfortunately we got to see this 1st hand yesterday
The Skyraider broke too soon and collected the P51 on the climb/roll. The problem
seemed to be timing and I would imagine the Sky raider has alot more forward
inertia and caught up with the 51 during the turn.
The Mustang pilot bailed out at about 900ft AGL and the chute was fully deployed
almost instantly (which was a surprise) and he was on the ground in under 10
secs. Makes you wonder about getting out at lower height if its needed....
I'd sure like to know what make the parachute was...
Rgs
Harv
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345956#345956
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
While we routinely break from an echelon formation, it appears that these
folks were breaking from a vic with lead breaking over #2 followed by #3. Am
I correct? Is this common practice in the UK?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_A4xdGFXoE
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Harv <martin.harvey@kbr.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
> Unfortunately we got to see this 1st hand yesterday
>
> The Skyraider broke too soon and collected the P51 on the climb/roll. The
> problem seemed to be timing and I would imagine the Sky raider has alot more
> forward inertia and caught up with the 51 during the turn.
>
> The Mustang pilot bailed out at about 900ft AGL and the chute was fully
> deployed almost instantly (which was a surprise) and he was on the ground in
> under 10 secs. Makes you wonder about getting out at lower height if its
> needed....
>
> I'd sure like to know what make the parachute was...
>
>
> Rgs
> Harv
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345956#345956
>
>
--
... Blitz
Byron M. Fox
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941
415-307-2405
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Drew Blahnick <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A 2 G pull in one airplane will not be the same as a 2 G pull in another.
>
>
A 2G pull is the *SAME* for two airplanes going the same speed and will
result in the same-size turn. The only difference is if one bleeds energy
significantly faster in the pull than the other one does, but then your
airspeeds are not the same anymore.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
My point exactly.=C2- It is only same for seconds at most.=C2- The Co
of lift and drag, is different on each (51vsAD) airplane.=C2- They may
have the same speed and G load at the brake, but that changes almost inst
antly when those parameters kick in.=C2- Both airplanes may be pulling
2gs but one of them is going to have a different radius of turn as soon
as the angle of attack changes, and the drag effect the speed.=C2- What
didn=99t help was the over bank angle of the AD.=C2- That put him
inside the turn instantly.=C2- That he landed the airplane minus what
looks like a third of the right wing missing, says a lot for the design.
=C2- AAMOF, I know of an AD that lost=C2-HALF of its right wing in VN.
=C2- The pilot bailed because the engine quit! (Randy=C2-Webb=C2-in
CT=C2-will verify that one).=C2- And did you notice that right snap
roll the AD did?=C2- That he recovered is just plain beautiful!=C2-
I don=99t know what was damaged on the 51.=C2- It looked like he
got its elevators and rudder.=C2- Well all airplanes need those - right
?=C2- I don=99t think a 51 could have lost as much wing as the AD
and still recovered as well.=C2- Anyway guys there are plenty of lesson
s to learn here.
=C2-
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
P.S.=C2- I bet someone was happy, he was wearing a chute.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 6:40 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Duxford Mid-Air
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Drew Blahnick <dblahnick@gmail.com>
wrote:
A 2 G pull in one airplane will not be the same as a 2 G pull in another.
=C2-
A 2G pull is the *SAME* for two airplanes going the same speed and will re
sult in the same-size turn. The only difference is if one bleeds energy si
gnificantly faster in the pull than the other one does, but then your airs
peeds are not the same anymore.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
========================
========================
========================
========================
========================
===============
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
Hello Yak Listers,
Below is an email I sent to some other friends earlier today with
the facts that I know about the accident....beyond what one can see on
the videos and photos.
It's good that Davies survived with only minor injuries. It's too
bad that this 51 was lost. However, the loss of the airframe is not
that big of a deal. Brand new Mustangs can be (are being) made these
days from scratch......except for the real tragedy of the day...which is
the destruction of the Merlin engine. There is only a very limited
supply of them....and there aren't likely to be any more manufactured.
The art of making large, exact, complicated castings has essentially
disappeared. It was an art, not a science or technology developed for
industrial production. It came out of the mostly jewish metal working
artisans of the middle ages who developed techniques for large castings
initially for casting large religious statues. The descendents of those
early artisans developed the techniques that led to industrial
uses....but they are all likely dead. Any survivors from the Merlin era
(either R-R or Packard) casting lines would be at least 85 years old and
mostly older....or have shuffled off this mortal coil.
Besides, who would front 10 or 20 or 50 million dollars to recreate
the technology??? The resultant engines themselves would be
multi-million dollar contraptions.
Sorry, I've done it again....gotten all wordy rambling about things
that damn few are interested in. Oops. I hope the photos come through.
I've never been very sure how photos work on the list.
Roger_____________________________________________________________________
_______________________
Hi Andrew and all,
The AD was a French registered airplane F-AZDP. The Mustang was German
registered D-FBBD which I think had only recently come off the British
registry (off the US registry around 2005 or 6). It was being flown by
a guy named Ron Davies. The #3 airplane in that formation was another
Mustang being flown by Dan Freidkin (Tommy Freidkin's son) and Ed
Shipley was in another three ship right behind the ill fated vic.
Here's an interesting picture that shows that D-FBBD's lower longerons
appear to be broken, possibly along with the elevator controls, etc.
Really quick thinking (and action) on the part of Davies (just shows the
validity of having made up ones mind in advance about leaving an
airplane in distress...this is all happening about 800' agl...the canopy
left the airplane 7 seconds after the collision:
Here's another picture that is of 2 of the 3 airplanes in the vic just
before the break:
Back in the late 1960's, I was involved with this 51 when it was
registered as N6565U. It has lead a hard life since then; wrecked a
couple of times and rebuilt using large parts of other airplanes. In
fact, I think that at the time of the collision, it was composed mostly
of major components of CAC built Mustang A68-192 (for some reason that
serial number comes to mind as the source airplane) but still on a NAA
data plate. Below is a photo from the MustangsMustangs.com web site
from the days that I knew the airplane.
And here's one showing just how close it was for Ron Davies. Parachutes
are very good things.
Best regards,
Roger Baker_________________________________________________________
On Jul 11, 2011, at 5:06 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> My point exactly. It is only same for seconds at most. The Co of
lift and drag, is different on each (51vsAD) airplane. They may have
the same speed and G load at the brake, but that changes almost
instantly when those parameters kick in. Both airplanes may be pulling
2gs but one of them is going to have a different radius of turn as soon
as the angle of attack changes, and the drag effect the speed. What
didn=92t help was the over bank angle of the AD. That put him inside
the turn instantly. That he landed the airplane minus what looks like a
third of the right wing missing, says a lot for the design. AAMOF, I
know of an AD that lost HALF of its right wing in VN. The pilot bailed
because the engine quit! (Randy Webb in CT will verify that one). And
did you notice that right snap roll the AD did? That he recovered is
just plain beautiful! I don=92t know what was damaged on the 51. It
looked like he got its elevators and rudder. Well all airplanes need
those - right? I don=92t think a 51 could have lost as much wing as the
AD and still recovered as well. Anyway guys there are plenty of lessons
to learn here.
>
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
> P.S. I bet someone was happy, he was wearing a chute.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 6:40 pm
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Duxford Mid-Air
>
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Drew Blahnick <dblahnick@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> A 2 G pull in one airplane will not be the same as a 2 G pull in
another.
>
>
> A 2G pull is the *SAME* for two airplanes going the same speed and
will result in the same-size turn. The only difference is if one bleeds
energy significantly faster in the pull than the other one does, but
then your airspeeds are not the same anymore.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> ========================
========================Ya
k-List"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List=====
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
Huh ... the pics show all the parts are still on the Mustang ...
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Baker [mailto:f4ffm2@roadrunner.com]
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 06:49 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Duxford Mid-Air
Hello Yak Listers,
>>> SNIP<<<
Sorry, I've done it again....gotten all wordy rambling about things that damn
few are interested in. Oops. I hope the photos come through. I've never
been very sure how photos work on the list.
Roger
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:06 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
> My point exactly. It is only same for seconds at most. The Co of lift
> and drag, is different on each (51vsAD) airplane.
>
That is absolutely true and it has absolutely no effect on the radius of
turn.
> They may have the same speed and G load at the brake, but that changes
> almost instantly when those parameters kick in. Both airplanes may be
> pulling 2gs but one of them is going to have a different radius of turn a
s
> soon as the angle of attack changes, and the drag effect the speed.
>
Just so that people don't get confused, radius of turn is dependent on just
two things: G-load and TAS. AoA and mass/inertia have nothing to do with it
.
It is just that simple.
What I think you are suggesting is that if you are loaded up in the turn an
d
you have pulled the power, TAS may be changing more rapidly for one aircraf
t
than the other due to one aircraft changing speed more rapidly than the
other. In that case the radius of turn for the slower aircraft will be
smaller. But that just brings me back to my first statement which is
absolutely, 100% correct -- radius of turn is dependent on only two things:
G-load and TAS.
> What didn=92t help was the over bank angle of the AD. That put him insid
e
> the turn instantly. That he landed the airplane minus what looks like a
> third of the right wing missing, says a lot for the design. AAMOF, I kno
w
> of an AD that lost HALF of its right wing in VN. The pilot bailed becaus
e
> the engine quit! (Randy Webb in CT will verify that one). And did you
> notice that right snap roll the AD did? That he recovered is just plain
> beautiful! I don=92t know what was damaged on the 51. It looked like he
> got its elevators and rudder. Well all airplanes need those - right? I
> don=92t think a 51 could have lost as much wing as the AD and still recov
ered
> as well. Anyway guys there are plenty of lessons to learn here.
>
No doubt and clearly someone screwed up. But when it comes to the whys and
geometry of this stuff, it is actually pretty simple. If two completely
different airplanes are in trail in the same turn, they will have the same
bank angle an they will be pulling exactly the same G in the turn. Period.
End of report.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
I guess I don't understand your comment. Sorry.
Roger_________________________________________
On Jul 11, 2011, at 7:19 PM, William Halverson wrote:
>
>
> Huh ... the pics show all the parts are still on the Mustang ...
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Baker [mailto:f4ffm2@roadrunner.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 06:49 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Duxford Mid-Air
>
> Hello Yak Listers,
>
>
>
>>>> SNIP<<<
>
> Sorry, I've done it again....gotten all wordy rambling about things that
damn few are interested in. Oops. I hope the photos come through. I've never
been very sure how photos work on the list.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Roger E. Baker, Managing Director
Panadero Energy Components, LLC
dba PEC AirAssist
760/809-5506
760/730-9244
760/454-4595 fax
f4ffm2@roadrunner.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
William,
If you look closely at the pics Roger attached earlier, particularly the one
showing the pilot "floating" away - you should be able to see the damage to
the bottom aft of the P-51 fuselage - the damage looks like a small "bite"
out of the bottom just forward of the horizontal stab. This "Bite" most
likely damaged the elevator control...
I am sure all available video that has and will surface will be(should be)
used for training purposed for a long time to come.
I am with Pappy Goolsby! - Love Your Chute!!! You might need it to love you
back one day... ;)
Sam Sax
Miami
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Halverson
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Duxford Mid-Air
Huh ... the pics show all the parts are still on the Mustang ...
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Baker [mailto:f4ffm2@roadrunner.com]
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 06:49 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Duxford Mid-Air
Hello Yak Listers,
>>> SNIP<<<
Sorry, I've done it again....gotten all wordy rambling about things
that damn few are interested in. Oops. I hope the photos come through.
I've never been very sure how photos work on the list.
Roger
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Duxford Mid-Air |
You nailed it Pod, and under the rules, the occupant/passenger falls under t
he FAAs historical mandate to protect the public from...what else, pilots ;)
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, n
o pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) ma
y execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds-
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
Drew
______________________________________
Strive for one knee down in life, but never two.
(1000 Year Old Road Racing Proverb That I Just Made Up)
On Jul 11, 2011, at 8:23 PM, Michael Foster <michaelfoster@bellsouth.net> wr
ote:
> Drew,
> As far as parachutes and FAR - look at 91.307. It says you need an approve
d parachute- repacked within 180 days- by a certified rigger (is one at HEG $
40/ chute that I use) Need chute for intentional maneuvers exceeding 60 deg A
OB, nose up/ down 30deg from horizon. This is more specific than general aer
obatic flt definition.
>
> 91.303 talks about aerobatic flight- in certian airspace- not within 4 mil
es of an airway- above 1500ft- need 3 mi vis. Also defines it as "an intenti
onal maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnor
mal attitude or abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight. No me
ntion of specific pitch and bank limits.
>
> Pod
>
>
>
> From: Drew Blahnick <dblahnick@gmail.com>
> To: "cjpilot710@aol.com" <cjpilot710@aol.com>
> Cc: "hkgibby@yahoo.com" <hkgibby@yahoo.com>; "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak
-list@matronics.com>; "aragheb@aol.com" <aragheb@aol.com>; "billandkim@wedel
iverwellness.com" <billandkim@wedeliverwellness.com>; "michaelfoster@bellsou
th.net" <michaelfoster@bellsouth.net>; "johnford915@ymail.com" <johnford915@
ymail.com>; "boswell.bruce@gmail.com" <boswell.bruce@gmail.com>; "rlanger2@c
omcast.net" <rlanger2@comcast.net>; "rhino11@me.com" <rhino11@me.com>; "capa
v8r@gmail.com" <capav8r@gmail.com>; "yakski@earthlink.net" <yakski@earthlink
.net>
> Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 5:04:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Duxford Mid-Air
>
> Whats the rules Pappy (faa)? Is it still reg just to provide passengers w
ith an inspected chute if were doing aerobatics? as long as im legal with th
e suits from the fsdo...
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 11, 2011, at 4:10 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Suzy Bass up at Deland or Kay Larken is the one I go to.
>>
>> I think Hoots right, dash 2 went to tight and looked like he pulled a lot
harder than Lead. He obviously didn't have him in sight. I personally sta
y away from nonstandard pitch outs. Boring I know, but unless you practice w
ith the guys its really foolish to try with strangers. All those guys are h
igh timers, but airplanes fly differently and the performance includes turni
ng diameters as well as speed. A 2 G pull in one airplane will not be the s
ame as a 2 G pull in another.
>>
>> Does anyone want to debate the parachute rules?
>>
>> Pappy
>>
>> In a message dated 7/11/2011 3:13:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dblahnic
k@gmail.com writes:
>> Excellent video lesson for folks to see (RPA should post this for their m
embership), also a good example of having a parachute you can trust!
>>
>> Thanks Hank. My CJ is heading to New S. Beach for a new compressor insta
ll...anyone know where I can get a chute repacked up there in Daytona area?
>>
>> Drew
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Hank Gibson <hkgibby@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Red Stars-
>>
>> Tough loss of a P-51 in Duxford at the annual Flying Legends airshow. Lo
oks to me like dash 2 (the Skyraider) lost sight of his lead. Contributing f
actors; minimal break interval, no pause before the roll and the lead not p
ulling hard enough; maybe looking for interval, but definitely fault of the S
kyraider from what I see. As we always say, the key is to brief it up!! Lu
cky nobody hurt! Check it out:
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-14101641
>>
>> Hoot
>>
>> Hank Gibson
>> 904-738-3240 Mobile
>> 904-213-1760 Home
>> hkgibby@yahoo.com
>> hkgibson@fnf.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!
>> (ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)
>>
>>
>>
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