Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:14 AM - Yak/CJ minimum requirements (Jon Boede)
2. 11:32 AM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (Roger Baker)
3. 11:42 AM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (delfin)
4. 11:43 AM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (dabear)
5. 11:43 AM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (Gill Gutierrez)
6. 01:08 PM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (Thomas Geoghegan)
7. 02:18 PM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (Bill Geipel)
8. 03:50 PM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (Brian Lloyd)
9. 06:27 PM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (Bill Geipel)
10. 07:07 PM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (Warren Hill)
11. 07:08 PM - Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements (cjpilot710@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group ownership
of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A=2C one of the things we talked about was what would be
the minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the aircraft.
My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high performance / com
plex time.
What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company would say?
Jon
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
Jon,
Why don't you just call up Tom Johnson (Airpower Insurance) and ask
him?
Roger Baker
On Aug 12, 2011, at 11:10 AM, Jon Boede wrote:
> During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group
ownership of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about was
what would be the minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the
aircraft.
>
> My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high performance
/ complex time.
>
> What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company would
say?
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
=0A=0A-It is my understanding that Romania cadets have about 30-40 hours
total time in the Yak, before transitioning to the next level aircraft.-
US insurance company may want several hundred hours, but with "qualified" i
nstruction I would think that- 60 hours to solo would be plenty. =0A-
=0AFrom: Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASe
nt: Friday, August 12, 2011 1:10 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Yak/CJ minimum req
uirements=0A=0A=0ADuring a fairly random discussion about putting together
a group ownership of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about w
as what would be the minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the a
ircraft.=0A=0AMy thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high per
formance / complex time.=0A=0AWhat say y'all?- Anybody have an idea what
=
Message 4
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| Subject: | Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
Ooooh This should be an interesting discussion. I'll get the popcorn out.
MNSHO is..
So I would recommend complete checkout in aircraft and systems (10-20 hours
including ground) and acro instruction (competent instructor) prior to ANY
acro.
I'd recommend high performance/complex/retract sign off before or during
initial instruction
No minimum hours TT or in complex..
The aircraft is a trainer, it isn't difficult to fly, however the systems
are complex and need to insure they understand them and can aviate ahead of
the airplane. Prior experience in non-yak/CJ aircraft will not convert
much.
I received my check out in the Yak-52 with 10 hours (non-CFI) from someone
with lots of time in the yak. I had 150 TT and 10-15 hours complex/retract.
The real question for low time pilots in the CJ/Yak would be initial
instruction in the aircraft AND how often they fly to stay current. <50
hours a year is really pushing the low side. I'd like to see lots of time
over the first year to maintain current in the aircraft.
Insurance would probably cover the above recommendation without issue. the
price may be higher than if you had a bunch of folks that all had 500+ TT
with lots of complex/retract time. Maybe you ask the lower time
person/people to pay the delta, but I still think it would be less than $900
(delta) a year than someone with lots of time.
Cost of liability would be in the 180-300 range..
Cost of hull would be in the 1500-2500 range depending on hull value.
My original insurance quote (first year) was for around $2900 (but that was
for a yak-52 at 50k hull value and a 150 hour TT pilot back in 1997) Hull
value for the CJ would be higher
I have a high hull value but reasonable rates due to 1300 hours in yaks/CJs
so I may be off.
Randy DeVere
MNSHO = My Not So Humble Opinion
"The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the
filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of
animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps."
---Eleanor Roosevelt
Quantico,VA 1945
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak/CJ minimum requirements
During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group ownership
of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about was what would be
the minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the aircraft.
My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high performance /
complex time.
What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company would say?
Jon
Message 5
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| Subject: | Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
I don't know about the YAK 52 of but I started flying my CJ solo with 50
hours in a 172 and 10 hours dual in the CJ which was the most important
time, plus learning the systems. My insurance company didn't have a problem
with me, rates were reasonable.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:11 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak/CJ minimum requirements
During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group ownership
of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about was what would be
the minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the aircraft.
My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high performance /
complex time.
What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company would say?
Jon
Message 6
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| Subject: | Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
I flew my CJ for the first time almost 4 months ago.
Insurance company required 10 hours of dual training before solo.
I had 575 total time with 3 hrs in complex.
Insurance for a $80k value was:
Liability - $297
Hull - $1,840
At the end of 10hrs, I felt comfortable with the basics but was still unfam
iliar with a lot of the systems. I flew it home then with the primer up :)
I would say it took me a good 25hrs to start feeling comfortable in it. Hec
k, I have 80 hrs in it now and still learn something about it every time I
fly.
I don't know if I would agree with your requirement of 50 hrs hp/complex. I
didn't have it and it was easy to learn with the CJ.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak/CJ minimum requirements
During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group ownership
of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about was what would be t
he minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the aircraft.
My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high performance / com
plex time.
What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company would say?
Jon
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
First off we keep our flight time requirement ideas to ourselves.
If u suggest a number, they assume that to be the starting point.
I pay 1500 and that includes fly-by at air shows. $65k hull.
Canon ins offers discounts on warbird insurance if u complete certain traini
ng.
Please don't do us any favors and open that box.
If you feel u must start this, talk to EAA, AOPA, RPA and get info from them
first.
They have all been down that road.
Bill
On Aug 12, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Thomas Geoghegan <thomasg@infosysnetworks.com> w
rote:
> I flew my CJ for the first time almost 4 months ago.
>
> Insurance company required 10 hours of dual training before solo.
>
> I had 575 total time with 3 hrs in complex.
>
>
>
> Insurance for a $80k value was:
>
> Liability - $297
>
> Hull - $1,840
>
>
>
> At the end of 10hrs, I felt comfortable with the basics but was still unfa
miliar with a lot of the systems. I flew it home then with the primer up J
>
> I would say it took me a good 25hrs to start feeling comfortable in it. He
ck, I have 80 hrs in it now and still learn something about it every time I f
ly.
>
>
>
> I don=99t know if I would agree with your requirement of 50 hrs hp/c
omplex. I didn=99t have it and it was easy to learn with the CJ.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 2:11 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Yak/CJ minimum requirements
>
>
>
> During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group ownership
of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about was what would be t
he minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the aircraft.
>
> My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high performance / co
mplex time.
>
> What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company would say
?
>
> Jon
>
>
> ==================
> <="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com
/N= e great content also available via the Web Forums!
> http://forums.matronics.com<; - List Contribution Web Site -http://w
ww.matronics.com/contribution<================
===
>
>
>
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=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com> wrote:
> During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group ownership
> of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about was what would be
> the minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the aircraft.
>
> My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high performance /
> complex time.
>
> What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company would say?
>
I have no idea what an insurance company would say but I know what *I* would
suggest: 20 hours total time. The CJ6A is such a classically-flying aircraft
I would gladly use it to instruct in primary flight training if I could. I
learned to fly in a C-182 and I think that the CJ6A would be even easier to
learn to fly. Other than having a few more knobs to push/pull, it is no more
difficult to fly than a mid-range Cessna. It just means that one spends a
bit more time on cockpit procedures, primarily in ground school but of
course in the pattern as well.
I taught my own son to fly in our Piper Clipper which was *WAAAAAY* more
difficult than the CJ6A to fly.
And consider that the Chinese teach primary flight training in it. Our own
military has used a variation of the T34 for 50 years. No reason we couldn't
do the same thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
It's like getting your private pilots lic. It basically gives u the privileg
e of learning to really fly.
So reading that you started to feel comfy after 25 shouldn't be interpreted a
s we need dual for 25 hrs.
The airplanes are easy to fly so get your basic check out, and set your limi
ts," clear and a million"
Go have fun and figure it out. When u r ready come back for some advanced tr
aining. 10 hrs is a lot of time.
With the right instruction, u can do it!
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Thomas Geoghegan <thomasg@infosysnetworks.com
> wrote:
>
>> I flew my CJ for the first time almost 4 months ago.
>>
>> Insurance company required 10 hours of dual training before solo.
>>
>> I had 575 total time with 3 hrs in complex.
>>
>>
>>
>> Insurance for a $80k value was:
>>
>> Liability - $297
>>
>> Hull - $1,840
>>
>>
>>
>> At the end of 10hrs, I felt comfortable with the basics but was still unf
amiliar with a lot of the systems. I flew it home then with the primer up J
>>
>> I would say it took me a good 25hrs to start feeling comfortable in it. H
eck, I have 80 hrs in it now and still learn something about it every time I
fly.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don=99t know if I would agree with your requirement of 50 hrs hp/
complex. I didn=99t have it and it was easy to learn with the CJ.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
>> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 2:11 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Yak-List: Yak/CJ minimum requirements
>>
>>
>>
>> During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group ownershi
p of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about was what would be t
he minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the aircraft.
>>
>> My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high performance / c
omplex time.
>>
>> What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company would sa
y?
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> ==================
>> <="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/N= e great content also available via the Web Forums!
>> http://forums.matronics.com<; - List Contribution Web Site -http://
www.matronics.com/contribution<===============
====
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
=========
>> ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?Yak-List
>> =========================
=========
>> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =========================
=========
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
>> =========================
=========
>>
>
>
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=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
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=========
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
The CJ-6A is a robust and remarkably easy airplane to fly. Did a ferry
flight from northern California to Arizona after less than one hour of
formal instruction with an instructor who accompanied me in the aft
cockpit. Love this airplane!
On Aug 12, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Bill Geipel wrote:
> It's like getting your private pilots lic. It basically gives u the
privilege of learning to really fly.
> So reading that you started to feel comfy after 25 shouldn't be
interpreted as we need dual for 25 hrs.
> The airplanes are easy to fly so get your basic check out, and set
your limits," clear and a million"
> Go have fun and figure it out. When u r ready come back for some
advanced training. 10 hrs is a lot of time.
> With the right instruction, u can do it!
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 12, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Thomas Geoghegan
<thomasg@infosysnetworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I flew my CJ for the first time almost 4 months ago.
>>>
>>> Insurance company required 10 hours of dual training before solo.
>>>
>>> I had 575 total time with 3 hrs in complex.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Insurance for a $80k value was:
>>>
>>> Liability - $297
>>>
>>> Hull - $1,840
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At the end of 10hrs, I felt comfortable with the basics but was
still unfamiliar with a lot of the systems. I flew it home then with the
primer up J
>>>
>>> I would say it took me a good 25hrs to start feeling comfortable in
it. Heck, I have 80 hrs in it now and still learn something about it
every time I fly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don=92t know if I would agree with your requirement of 50 hrs
hp/complex. I didn=92t have it and it was easy to learn with the CJ.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
>>> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 2:11 PM
>>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Yak-List: Yak/CJ minimum requirements
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group
ownership of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about was
what would be the minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the
aircraft.
>>>
>>> My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high
performance / complex time.
>>>
>>> What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company
would say?
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> ==================
>>>
<="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com
/N= e great content also available via the Web Forums!
>>> http://forums.matronics.com<; - List Contribution Web Site
-http://www.matronics.com/contribution<============
=======
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ========================
>>>
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> ========================
>>> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ========================
>>>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
>>> ========================
>>>
>>
>>
>> ========================
>>
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ========================
>> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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>>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
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>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Yak/CJ minimum requirements |
The minima amount of time has always (to me anyway) depended on the person.
(Some people should never get in an airplane). But ten 10 hours seem to
be normal to me for a typical rated pilot. The CJ & Yak require a little m
ore time for a zero time guys to learn than say a Cub/Champ, requiring bett
er understanding of their systems. However one thing for certain, an instr
uctor who does not cover the total stall series in either aircraft is tanta
mount to being a killer.
In all the military around the world, usually the ones whom are taught to f
ly are above average. Most military's have carefully controlled training p
rograms to get students to the solo phase, with integrated steps, to advanc
ed levels. Here that isn't always true in our private sector. Something a
re missed or skipped. I really believe that we've suffered some fatalitie
s because of lapes in training. These like almost all other aircraft are s
low, cross controled, low altitude, spin entries. The bain of the low time
pilot, miss trained pilot.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>
Sent: Fri, Aug 12, 2011 9:27 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Yak/CJ minimum requirements
It's like getting your private pilots lic. It basically gives u the privile
ge of learning to really fly.
So reading that you started to feel comfy after 25 shouldn't be interpreted
as we need dual for 25 hrs.
The airplanes are easy to fly so get your basic check out, and set your lim
its," clear and a million"
Go have fun and figure it out. When u r ready come back for some advanced t
raining. 10 hrs is a lot of time.
With the right instruction, u can do it!
On Aug 12, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Thomas Geoghegan <thomasg@infosysnetworks.com>
wrote:
I flew my CJ for the first time almost 4 months ago.
Insurance company required 10 hours of dual training before solo.
I had 575 total time with 3 hrs in complex.
Insurance for a $80k value was:
Liability - $297
Hull - $1,840
At the end of 10hrs, I felt comfortable with the basics but was still unfam
iliar with a lot of the systems. I flew it home then with the primer up J
I would say it took me a good 25hrs to start feeling comfortable in it. Hec
k, I have 80 hrs in it now and still learn something about it every time I
fly.
I don=99t know if I would agree with your requirement of 50 hrs hp/co
mplex. I didn=99t have it and it was easy to learn with the CJ.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@mat
ronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Yak/CJ minimum requirements
During a fairly random discussion about putting together a group ownership
of a Yak-52 or CJ-6A, one of the things we talked about was what would be t
he minimum time requirements for a pilot to solo in the aircraft.
My thought was 200 hours total time with 50 hours of high performance / com
plex time.
What say y'all? Anybody have an idea what the insurance company would say?
Jon
==================
<="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
N= e great content also available via the Web Forums!
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