Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:27 AM - Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Yak Pilot)
2. 06:39 AM - Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 07:00 AM - Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (George Coy)
4. 09:49 AM - Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Walter Lannon)
5. 10:23 AM - Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Yak Pilot)
6. 10:43 AM - Re:8 (Mark Schrick)
7. 11:16 AM - Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (mikspin)
8. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Yak Pilot)
9. 12:07 PM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (A. Dennis Savarese)
10. 12:29 PM - Re: Re:8 (doug sapp)
11. 12:37 PM - Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (mikspin)
12. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Didier Blouzard)
13. 02:07 PM - Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Elmar Hegenauer)
14. 02:58 PM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (A. Dennis Savarese)
15. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (A. Dennis Savarese)
16. 03:54 PM - Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Elmar Hegenauer)
17. 03:59 PM - Re: Re: Electric Fuel Pump (Paul Lewis)
18. 04:56 PM - Worldwide Warbirds alive and well! (barryhancock)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
That's an interesting discussion Walt.- Basically from what I read, you a
re saying in a nutshell that due to piston TDC dwell, the TIMERITE is not a
ccurate for determining TDC, and I see that logic perfectly.- =0A-=0AYo
u made a comment that "a few" of the M-14P engines use the M9F mag but most
others use mags with auto-advance.--That's intesting because every M-1
4 that I have worked on use the M9F fixed timing mags.- That includes fiv
e M-14P's, and seven M14PF's.- From that LESS than broad experiece I came
to the conclusion (which could easily be wrong) that most M-14P and PF eng
ines that came stock with the YAK-50, YAK-52, YAK-55, Sukhoi-26,29,31 serie
s came with the M9F mag stock.- Those are the models I have direct experi
ence with, but admittedly only one or two of each model.- I own two YAK-5
0's (one wrecked) with M-14P engines, one 1974 model with original engine a
nd one 1984- model with original engine, both with M9F mags.- =0A-=0A
That said, I have heard that the mags with mechanical advance will work equ
ally was well.- Dennis, can you add to this?- George or Cliff Coy?- W
hat are the usual mag configurations (stock) on M-14's?- =0A-=0AYou've
used this device on an M-14, and I have not.- So excuse a stupid question
if I may.- If you can determine the total piston dwell by coming up to t
he point of no movement (Before TDC) and then where it starts to move again
(after TDC), determine total number of "no movement degrees" then divide b
y 2, would you not get a reasonable point of accuracy for TDC?- Just wond
ering.- This problem has perplexed me for quite some time, as with a spin
ner on the aircraft, measuring prop angle is next to impossible, and even w
ith the spinner off, the spinner backplate also adds to the problem.- I h
ave experimented with laser measuring, with a modicum of success, but refle
ction from the piston often refracts and- without putting a reflector on
the piston I've given up on that.- =0A-=0ASo at this point I guess my s
uggestion to have TIMERITE make arms and scales for the M-14 might only app
ly to those that use M9F mags.- =0A-=0AHmmm.- =0A-=0AThanks Walt.
=0A-=0AMark=0A-=0A=0AFrom: Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca>=0ATo: yak-li
st@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, October 7, 2011 12:16 AM=0ASubject: Re: Ya
k-List: Recommendation M-14 engines=0A=0A=0AHi Mark=0A-=0AHaving already
-fabricated an arm and scale for my-TIMERITE to accommodate the Ivchenc
o series engines I can tell you it is barely worth the effort.=0A-=0AThe
-TIMERITE is an excellent timing device but like any other magneto timing
system that-utilizes piston position it becomes increasingly less accura
te as the timing specification approaches TDC.=0A-=0AThis of course is a
result of piston dwell where the piston is stationary-through an-angle
of- 4 to 5 degs. either side of TDC.- In that area the TIMERITE is tota
lly useless.=0A-=0AHaving said that the M14P engine-WITH the specified
fixed spark M9F magneto is-good candidate for the TIMERITE since the timi
ng angle (and therefore the setting angle) is 23 degs.(crankshaft) BTDC.=0A
-=0AHowever a few M14P's and (as far as I know) all other variants of the
Ivchenko line utilize the M9, M9-25M or M9-35M.- =0AThese of course are
all auto advance mags and, varying with engine model,-are timed with sett
ing angles in the area of-10 degs. BTDC to 10 degs. ATDC-and therefore
must be timed by direct reference to the crankshaft (or corresponding prop
shaft) angle.=0A-=0AAnd NO, my arm and scale are not available under any
circumstance.- They were just a test for my own personal-information.
- The TIMERITE is a patented, currently available device and if ATS think
there is an acceptable market they will design and manufacture as necessar
y.=0A-=0ACheers; =0AWalt- =0A=0A-=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>
From: Yak Pilot =0A>To: yak-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Thursday, October
06, 2011 12:41 PM=0A>Subject: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines=0A>=0A>
=0A>This should probably be on the M-14 engine list, (which I will get arou
nd to doing), but for now just a recommendation for every M-14 engine owner
on this list.- (Of course this might-equally apply to-Housai engines
as well!-)=0A>=0A>As anyone knows who has timed an M-14, it is not exact
ly an easy process and it is very difficult to get dead nuts accurate.- T
ypically we finish, hope for the best and check mag drop as a confidence fa
ctor.- =0A>=0A>There are several ways to "do this better" when attempting
the process, but one of the easier ways to time an engine is with the Airc
raft Tool and Supply Company TIMERITE device.- This is actually the same
way the Russians attempt it, but with a much more accurate instrument.-
=0A>=0A>Apparent;ly the TIMERITE timing tool does not have gauge arms and s
cales developed for the M-14 engine, which actually is kind of odd since th
ere are more of these engines in this country flying than there are some of
the older radial engine designs that they have developed scales for. =0A>
=0A>One of the ways to influence this is simply to call these folks up, tel
l them that you have an M-14, and would like to see them develop their prod
uct so it can be used on YOUR engine.- Heck, it's a toll free call:- 1-
800-248-0638- =0A>=0A>I am not saying there are not better methods than t
he TIMERITE (A Laser scale comes to mind), but being able to purchase and u
se this instrument on M-14 engines would be of benefit to all of us.- So
consider giving these folks a call sometime and tell them you'd love to see
them develop their product to be used on our M-14 engines.-- Can't hur
t.- =0A>=0A>Mark =0A>=0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-L
ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.ma
tronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com
===
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Mark,
For those engines that have spinners and back plates that cover the
timing marks on the M14, the easiest way to check or set the timing is
to use this device available from ATS.
http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID5
Secure it to the front of the spinner and set the disc to "0" once you
get #4 cylinder at TDC. Works just like having the spinner off and
seeing the timing marks on the prop flange.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 10/7/2011 8:25 AM, Yak Pilot wrote:
> That's an interesting discussion Walt. Basically from what I read,
> you are saying in a nutshell that due to piston TDC dwell, the
> TIMERITE is not accurate for determining TDC, and I see that logic
> perfectly.
> You made a comment that "a few" of the M-14P engines use the M9F mag
> but most others use mags with auto-advance. That's intesting because
> every M-14 that I have worked on use the M9F fixed timing mags. That
> includes five M-14P's, and seven M14PF's. From that LESS than broad
> experiece I came to the conclusion (which could easily be wrong) that
> most M-14P and PF engines that came stock with the YAK-50, YAK-52,
> YAK-55, Sukhoi-26,29,31 series came with the M9F mag stock. Those are
> the models I have direct experience with, but admittedly only one or
> two of each model. I own two YAK-50's (one wrecked) with M-14P
> engines, one 1974 model with original engine and one 1984 model with
> original engine, both with M9F mags.
> That said, I have heard that the mags with mechanical advance will
> work equally was well. Dennis, can you add to this? George or Cliff
> Coy? What are the usual mag configurations (stock) on M-14's?
> You've used this device on an M-14, and I have not. So excuse a
> stupid question if I may. If you can determine the total piston dwell
> by coming up to the point of no movement (Before TDC) and then where
> it starts to move again (after TDC), determine total number of "no
> movement degrees" then divide by 2, would you not get a reasonable
> point of accuracy for TDC? Just wondering. This problem has
> perplexed me for quite some time, as with a spinner on the aircraft,
> measuring prop angle is next to impossible, and even with the spinner
> off, the spinner backplate also adds to the problem. I have
> experimented with laser measuring, with a modicum of success, but
> reflection from the piston often refracts and without putting a
> reflector on the piston I've given up on that.
> So at this point I guess my suggestion to have TIMERITE make arms and
> scales for the M-14 might only apply to those that use M9F mags.
> Hmmm.
> Thanks Walt.
> Mark
>
> *From:* Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca>
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, October 7, 2011 12:16 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
> Hi Mark
> Having already fabricated an arm and scale for my TIMERITE to
> accommodate the Ivchenco series engines I can tell you it is barely
> worth the effort.
> The TIMERITE is an excellent timing device but like any other magneto
> timing system that utilizes piston position it becomes increasingly
> less accurate as the timing specification approaches TDC.
> This of course is a result of piston dwell where the piston is
> stationary through an angle of 4 to 5 degs. either side of TDC. In
> that area the TIMERITE is totally useless.
> Having said that the M14P engine WITH the specified fixed spark M9F
> magneto is good candidate for the TIMERITE since the timing angle (and
> therefore the setting angle) is 23 degs.(crankshaft) BTDC.
> However a few M14P's and (as far as I know) all other variants of the
> Ivchenko line utilize the M9, M9-25M or M9-35M.
> These of course are all auto advance mags and, varying with engine
> model, are timed with setting angles in the area of 10 degs. BTDC to
> 10 degs. ATDC and therefore must be timed by direct reference to the
> crankshaft (or corresponding prop shaft) angle.
> And NO, my arm and scale are not available under any circumstance.
> They were just a test for my own personal information. The TIMERITE
> is a patented, currently available device and if ATS think there is an
> acceptable market they will design and manufacture as necessary.
> Cheers;
> Walt
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:41 PM
> *Subject:* Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
> This should probably be on the M-14 engine list, (which I will get
> around to doing), but for now just a recommendation for every M-14
> engine owner on this list. (Of course this might equally apply
> to Housai engines as well! )
> As anyone knows who has timed an M-14, it is not exactly an easy
> process and it is very difficult to get dead nuts accurate.
> Typically we finish, hope for the best and check mag drop as a
> confidence factor.
> There are several ways to "do this better" when attempting the
> process, but one of the easier ways to time an engine is with the
> Aircraft Tool and Supply Company TIMERITE device. This is
> actually the same way the Russians attempt it, but with a much
> more accurate instrument.
> Apparent;ly the TIMERITE timing tool does not have gauge arms and
> scales developed for the M-14 engine, which actually is kind of
> odd since there are more of these engines in this country flying
> than there are some of the older radial engine designs that they
> have developed scales for.
> One of the ways to influence this is simply to call these folks
> up, tell them that you have an M-14, and would like to see them
> develop their product so it can be used on YOUR engine. Heck,
> it's a toll free call: 1-800-248-0638
> I am not saying there are not better methods than the TIMERITE (A
> Laser scale comes to mind), but being able to purchase and use
> this instrument on M-14 engines would be of benefit to all of us.
> So consider giving these folks a call sometime and tell them you'd
> love to see them develop their product to be used on our M-14
> engines. Can't hurt.
> Mark
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 3
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| Subject: | Recommendation M-14 engines |
The M9=E6 magneto with the high voltage type of shower of sparks was
pretty
much standard for the M14P on Yaks. The M9-35M magneto with the vibrator
coil type shower of sparks was pretty much standard on the M14-V26 Kamov
engines and M9B engines. Either works equally well. Most Yak 52W and
52TW
had the M9-35M magnetos as new production M9=E6 magnetos were not
available at
the time and new Mp-35m type were available.
I use the just a screw driver or awl to feel TDC. It is
probably
as accurate as the Russian gage or TIMERIGHT. If I cannot get to the
propeller flange due to a spinner I use one of the Timing Indicator
TP102
Tools (Aircraft spruce 12-01187) and time it to 15 deg BTC (24 deg X
.63).
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines
That's an interesting discussion Walt. Basically from what I read, you
are
saying in a nutshell that due to piston TDC dwell, the TIMERITE is not
accurate for determining TDC, and I see that logic perfectly.
You made a comment that "a few" of the M-14P engines use the M9F mag but
most others use mags with auto-advance. That's intesting because every
M-14
that I have worked on use the M9F fixed timing mags. That includes five
M-14P's, and seven M14PF's. From that LESS than broad experiece I came
to
the conclusion (which could easily be wrong) that most M-14P and PF
engines
that came stock with the YAK-50, YAK-52, YAK-55, Sukhoi-26,29,31 series
came
with the M9F mag stock. Those are the models I have direct experience
with,
but admittedly only one or two of each model. I own two YAK-50's (one
wrecked) with M-14P engines, one 1974 model with original engine and one
1984 model with original engine, both with M9F mags.
That said, I have heard that the mags with mechanical advance will work
equally was well. Dennis, can you add to this? George or Cliff Coy?
What
are the usual mag configurations (stock) on M-14's?
You've used this device on an M-14, and I have not. So excuse a stupid
question if I may. If you can determine the total piston dwell by
coming up
to the point of no movement (Before TDC) and then where it starts to
move
again (after TDC), determine total number of "no movement degrees" then
divide by 2, would you not get a reasonable point of accuracy for TDC?
Just
wondering. This problem has perplexed me for quite some time, as with a
spinner on the aircraft, measuring prop angle is next to impossible, and
even with the spinner off, the spinner backplate also adds to the
problem.
I have experimented with laser measuring, with a modicum of success, but
reflection from the piston often refracts and without putting a
reflector
on the piston I've given up on that.
So at this point I guess my suggestion to have TIMERITE make arms and
scales
for the M-14 might only apply to those that use M9F mags.
Hmmm.
Thanks Walt.
Mark
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca>
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines
Hi Mark
Having already fabricated an arm and scale for my TIMERITE to
accommodate
the Ivchenco series engines I can tell you it is barely worth the
effort.
The TIMERITE is an excellent timing device but like any other magneto
timing
system that utilizes piston position it becomes increasingly less
accurate
as the timing specification approaches TDC.
This of course is a result of piston dwell where the piston is
stationary
through an angle of 4 to 5 degs. either side of TDC. In that area the
TIMERITE is totally useless.
Having said that the M14P engine WITH the specified fixed spark M9F
magneto
is good candidate for the TIMERITE since the timing angle (and therefore
the
setting angle) is 23 degs.(crankshaft) BTDC.
However a few M14P's and (as far as I know) all other variants of the
Ivchenko line utilize the M9, M9-25M or M9-35M.
These of course are all auto advance mags and, varying with engine
model,
are timed with setting angles in the area of 10 degs. BTDC to 10 degs.
ATDC
and therefore must be timed by direct reference to the crankshaft (or
corresponding prop shaft) angle.
And NO, my arm and scale are not available under any circumstance. They
were just a test for my own personal information. The TIMERITE is a
patented, currently available device and if ATS think there is an
acceptable
market they will design and manufacture as necessary.
Cheers;
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:41 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines
This should probably be on the M-14 engine list, (which I will get
around to
doing), but for now just a recommendation for every M-14 engine owner on
this list. (Of course this might equally apply to Housai engines as
well! )
As anyone knows who has timed an M-14, it is not exactly an easy process
and
it is very difficult to get dead nuts accurate. Typically we finish,
hope
for the best and check mag drop as a confidence factor.
There are several ways to "do this better" when attempting the process,
but
one of the easier ways to time an engine is with the Aircraft Tool and
Supply Company TIMERITE device. This is actually the same way the
Russians
attempt it, but with a much more accurate instrument.
Apparent;ly the TIMERITE timing tool does not have gauge arms and scales
developed for the M-14 engine, which actually is kind of odd since there
are
more of these engines in this country flying than there are some of the
older radial engine designs that they have developed scales for.
One of the ways to influence this is simply to call these folks up, tell
them that you have an M-14, and would like to see them develop their
product
so it can be used on YOUR engine. Heck, it's a toll free call:
1-800-248-0638
I am not saying there are not better methods than the TIMERITE (A Laser
scale comes to mind), but being able to purchase and use this instrument
on
M-14 engines would be of benefit to all of us. So consider giving these
folks a call sometime and tell them you'd love to see them develop their
product to be used on our M-14 engines. Can't hurt.
Mark
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
No Mark that is NOT what I wrote!
I wrote " A few M14P's and all other variants of the Ivchenko line
utilize the M9, M9-25M or M9-35M"
And yes you have appeared to miss the point entirely. The TIMERITE is
not a TDC indicating tool. It is, as the name implies, a timing too.
One establishes the TDC reference by simply setting the adjustable scale
to "0" after positioning the piston at the top of it's compression
stroke. Whether the crank is precisely at "0" degs is totally
irrelevant to the process. The TIMERITE measures piston position
relative to the TDC position of the PISTON and displays that position as
a function of crankshaft rotation.
You are correct the TIMERITE is of use ONLY with the M9F magneto.
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines
That's an interesting discussion Walt. Basically from what I read,
you are saying in a nutshell that due to piston TDC dwell, the TIMERITE
is not accurate for determining TDC, and I see that logic perfectly.
You made a comment that "a few" of the M-14P engines use the M9F mag
but most others use mags with auto-advance. That's intesting because
every M-14 that I have worked on use the M9F fixed timing mags. That
includes five M-14P's, and seven M14PF's. From that LESS than broad
experiece I came to the conclusion (which could easily be wrong) that
most M-14P and PF engines that came stock with the YAK-50, YAK-52,
YAK-55, Sukhoi-26,29,31 series came with the M9F mag stock. Those are
the models I have direct experience with, but admittedly only one or two
of each model. I own two YAK-50's (one wrecked) with M-14P engines, one
1974 model with original engine and one 1984 model with original
engine, both with M9F mags.
That said, I have heard that the mags with mechanical advance will
work equally was well. Dennis, can you add to this? George or Cliff
Coy? What are the usual mag configurations (stock) on M-14's?
You've used this device on an M-14, and I have not. So excuse a
stupid question if I may. If you can determine the total piston dwell
by coming up to the point of no movement (Before TDC) and then where it
starts to move again (after TDC), determine total number of "no movement
degrees" then divide by 2, would you not get a reasonable point of
accuracy for TDC? Just wondering. This problem has perplexed me for
quite some time, as with a spinner on the aircraft, measuring prop angle
is next to impossible, and even with the spinner off, the spinner
backplate also adds to the problem. I have experimented with laser
measuring, with a modicum of success, but reflection from the piston
often refracts and without putting a reflector on the piston I've given
up on that.
So at this point I guess my suggestion to have TIMERITE make arms and
scales for the M-14 might only apply to those that use M9F mags.
Hmmm.
Thanks Walt.
Mark
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca>
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines
Hi Mark
Having already fabricated an arm and scale for my TIMERITE to
accommodate the Ivchenco series engines I can tell you it is barely
worth the effort.
The TIMERITE is an excellent timing device but like any other magneto
timing system that utilizes piston position it becomes increasingly less
accurate as the timing specification approaches TDC.
This of course is a result of piston dwell where the piston is
stationary through an angle of 4 to 5 degs. either side of TDC. In
that area the TIMERITE is totally useless.
Having said that the M14P engine WITH the specified fixed spark M9F
magneto is good candidate for the TIMERITE since the timing angle (and
therefore the setting angle) is 23 degs.(crankshaft) BTDC.
However a few M14P's and (as far as I know) all other variants of the
Ivchenko line utilize the M9, M9-25M or M9-35M.
These of course are all auto advance mags and, varying with engine
model, are timed with setting angles in the area of 10 degs. BTDC to 10
degs. ATDC and therefore must be timed by direct reference to the
crankshaft (or corresponding prop shaft) angle.
And NO, my arm and scale are not available under any circumstance.
They were just a test for my own personal information. The TIMERITE is
a patented, currently available device and if ATS think there is an
acceptable market they will design and manufacture as necessary.
Cheers;
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:41 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines
This should probably be on the M-14 engine list, (which I will get
around to doing), but for now just a recommendation for every M-14
engine owner on this list. (Of course this might equally apply to
Housai engines as well! )
As anyone knows who has timed an M-14, it is not exactly an easy
process and it is very difficult to get dead nuts accurate. Typically
we finish, hope for the best and check mag drop as a confidence factor.
There are several ways to "do this better" when attempting the
process, but one of the easier ways to time an engine is with the
Aircraft Tool and Supply Company TIMERITE device. This is actually the
same way the Russians attempt it, but with a much more accurate
instrument.
Apparent;ly the TIMERITE timing tool does not have gauge arms and
scales developed for the M-14 engine, which actually is kind of odd
since there are more of these engines in this country flying than there
are some of the older radial engine designs that they have developed
scales for.
One of the ways to influence this is simply to call these folks up,
tell them that you have an M-14, and would like to see them develop
their product so it can be used on YOUR engine. Heck, it's a toll free
call: 1-800-248-0638
I am not saying there are not better methods than the TIMERITE (A
Laser scale comes to mind), but being able to purchase and use this
instrument on M-14 engines would be of benefit to all of us. So
consider giving these folks a call sometime and tell them you'd love to
see them develop their product to be used on our M-14 engines. Can't
hurt.
Mark
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
WALT!- Sorry, if I-misunderstood and missed the point entirely=0A-=0A
So, if I understand it now, most of the M-14P and PF engines came with the
M9F mag, and thus the TIMERITE device will be of use to them.--Got it.
=0A-=0AI think that was what I was trying to say from the gitgo, but....
whatever.--..... thanks.=0A-=0AMags that use mechanical advance requi
re the set timing point to be set very close to TDC, which is hard to deter
mine with the TIMERITE due to piston dwell.- For example, a mechanical ad
vance M9-35M mag with 35 stamped on it, would have a set point of seven deg
rees past top dead center of crankshaft angle, which would be difficult to
determine with the TIMERITE.-- Would you agree that I understand the po
int now?- Thanks.- =0A-=0AThe only thing I was suggesting was that th
e TIMERITE would be a nice thing to have on M-14 engines.- Since most M-1
4 engines use the M9F mag, I guess we are in agreement on that point.-
=0A-=0ASo, if you have an M9F mag on an M-14 engine, please give those fo
lks a call if you would.- It's always nice to have another option, even t
hough it appears that the E25 timing indicator might be a better way to go.
- =0A-=0ASorry for misreading what you wrote Walt.- It was not meant
to upset you.- =0A-=0AMark=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A=0AFrom: Wal
ter Lannon <wlannon@shaw.ca>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, O
ctober 7, 2011 12:47 PM=0ASubject: Re: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engine
s=0A=0A=0ANo Mark that is NOT what I wrote!=0A-=0AI wrote " A few M14P's
-and all other variants of the Ivchenko line-utilize the M9, M9-25M or
M9-35M"=0A-=0AAnd yes you have appeared to miss the point entirely.- Th
e TIMERITE is not a TDC indicating tool. -It is, as the name implies, a t
iming too.=0A-=0AOne establishes the TDC reference by simply setting the
adjustable scale to "0" after positioning the piston at the top of it's com
pression stroke.- Whether the crank is precisely at "0" degs is totally i
rrelevant to the process.- The-TIMERITE measures-piston position-re
lative to the TDC position of the PISTON and displays that position as a fu
nction of crankshaft rotation.=0A-=0AYou are correct the TIMERITE is of u
se ONLY with the M9F magneto.--=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From
: Yak Pilot =0A>To: yak-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Friday, October 07, 20
11 6:25 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines=0A>=0A>=0A
>That's an interesting discussion Walt.- Basically from what I read, you
are saying in a nutshell that due to piston TDC dwell, the TIMERITE is not
accurate for determining TDC, and I see that logic perfectly.- =0A>-=0A
>You made a comment that "a few" of the M-14P engines use the M9F mag but m
ost others use mags with auto-advance.--That's intesting because every
M-14 that I have worked on use the M9F fixed timing mags.- That includes
five M-14P's, and seven M14PF's.- From that LESS than broad experiece I c
ame to the conclusion (which could easily be wrong) that most M-14P and PF
engines that came stock with the YAK-50, YAK-52, YAK-55, Sukhoi-26,29,31 se
ries came with the M9F mag stock.- Those are the models I have direct exp
erience with, but admittedly only one or two of each model.- I own two YA
K-50's (one wrecked) with M-14P engines, one 1974 model with original engin
e and one 1984- model with original engine, both with M9F mags.- =0A>
-=0A>That said, I have heard that the mags with mechanical advance will w
ork equally was well.- Dennis, can you add to this?- George or Cliff Co
y?- What are the usual mag configurations (stock) on M-14's?- =0A>-
=0A>You've used this device on an M-14, and I have not.- So excuse a stup
id question if I may.- If you can determine the total piston dwell by com
ing up to the point of no movement (Before TDC) and then where it starts to
move again (after TDC), determine total number of "no movement degrees" th
en divide by 2, would you not get a reasonable point of accuracy for TDC?
- Just wondering.- This problem has perplexed me for quite some time, a
s with a spinner on the aircraft, measuring prop angle is next to impossibl
e, and even with the spinner off, the spinner backplate also adds to the pr
oblem.- I have experimented with laser measuring, with a modicum of succe
ss, but reflection from the piston often refracts and- without putting a
reflector on the piston I've given up on that.- =0A>-=0A>So at this poi
nt I guess my suggestion to have TIMERITE make arms and scales for the M-14
might only apply to those that use M9F mags.- =0A>-=0A>Hmmm.- =0A>
-=0A>Thanks Walt. =0A>-=0A>Mark=0A>-=0A>=0A>=0A>From: Walter Lannon <
wlannon@shaw.ca>=0A>To: yak-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Friday, October 7,
2011 12:16 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines=0A>=0A>
=0A>Hi Mark=0A>-=0A>Having already-fabricated an arm and scale for my
-TIMERITE to accommodate the Ivchenco series engines I can tell you it is
barely worth the effort.=0A>-=0A>The-TIMERITE is an excellent timing d
evice but like any other magneto timing system that-utilizes piston posit
ion it becomes increasingly less accurate as the timing specification appro
aches TDC.=0A>-=0A>This of course is a result of piston dwell where the p
iston is stationary-through an-angle of- 4 to 5 degs. either side of
TDC.- In that area the TIMERITE is totally useless.=0A>-=0A>Having said
that the M14P engine-WITH the specified fixed spark M9F magneto is-goo
d candidate for the TIMERITE since the timing angle (and therefore the sett
ing angle) is 23 degs.(crankshaft) BTDC.=0A>-=0A>However a few M14P's and
(as far as I know) all other variants of the Ivchenko line utilize the M9,
M9-25M or M9-35M.- =0A>These of course are all auto advance mags and, va
rying with engine model,-are timed with setting angles in the area of-1
0 degs. BTDC to 10 degs. ATDC-and therefore must be timed by direct refer
ence to the crankshaft (or corresponding prop shaft) angle.=0A>-=0A>And N
O, my arm and scale are not available under any circumstance.- They were
just a test for my own personal-information.- The TIMERITE is a patente
d, currently available device and if ATS think there is an acceptable marke
t they will design and manufacture as necessary.=0A>-=0A>Cheers; =0A>Walt
- =0A>=0A>-=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>From: Yak Pilot =0A>>T
o: yak-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:41 PM=0A
>>Subject: Yak-List: Recommendation M-14 engines=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>This should
probably be on the M-14 engine list, (which I will get around to doing), bu
t for now just a recommendation for every M-14 engine owner on this list.
- (Of course this might-equally apply to-Housai engines as well!-)
=0A>>=0A>>As anyone knows who has timed an M-14, it is not exactly an easy
process and it is very difficult to get dead nuts accurate.- Typically we
finish, hope for the best and check mag drop as a confidence factor.-
=0A>>=0A>>There are several ways to "do this better" when attempting the pr
ocess, but one of the easier ways to time an engine is with the Aircraft To
ol and Supply Company TIMERITE device.- This is actually the same way the
Russians attempt it, but with a much more accurate instrument.- =0A>>=0A
>>Apparent;ly the TIMERITE timing tool does not have gauge arms and scales
developed for the M-14 engine, which actually is kind of odd since there ar
e more of these engines in this country flying than there are some of the o
lder radial engine designs that they have developed scales for. =0A>>=0A>>O
ne of the ways to influence this is simply to call these folks up, tell the
m that you have an M-14, and would like to see them develop their product s
o it can be used on YOUR engine.- Heck, it's a toll free call:- 1-800-2
48-0638- =0A>>=0A>>I am not saying there are not better methods than the
TIMERITE (A Laser scale comes to mind), but being able to purchase and use
this instrument on M-14 engines would be of benefit to all of us.- So con
sider giving these folks a call sometime and tell them you'd love to see th
em develop their product to be used on our M-14 engines.-- Can't hurt.
- =0A>>=0A>>Mark =0A>>=0A>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak
-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.
matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.c
om/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A>=0A>=0A>href="http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Li
sthref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhre
f="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A_
-========================
=============
Message 6
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.. http://lalimpiezadegraffitis.com/dfijleoiw.html?ulinkFriend=7xit2
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?search=true&item_ID=75273&PartNo=YAL866&group_id=19865&supersede=&store=snapon-store&tool=all
This tool makes it possible to time the mags, regardless of model, accurately and
consistently, regardless of a spinner, backing plate etc.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354298#354298
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
I respectfully disagree, but that's nothing new.
Mark
From: mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 2:14 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?search=true&item_ID=75273&PartNo=YAL866&group_id=19865&supersede=&store=snapon-store&tool=all
This tool makes it possible to time the mags, regardless of model, accurately and
consistently, regardless of a spinner, backing plate etc.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354298#354298
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
I think what was mean was the tool makes it possible to find TDC. I have
one that I use all the time to find TDC and it works fine. Had to make
one small modification though because when the tool is screwed into the
spark plug hole properly, the moveable section will jam or bind on the
sleeve because of the angle between the moveable section and the
piston. All I did was put a VERY slight bend in the moveable section
which changed the angle just enough to permit it to move up and down easily.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 10/7/2011 1:35 PM, Yak Pilot wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Yak Pilot<yakplt@yahoo.com>
>
> I respectfully disagree, but that's nothing new.
>
> Mark
>
>
> From: mikspin<acromike@gmail.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 2:14 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "mikspin"<acromike@gmail.com>
>
> http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?search=true&item_ID=75273&PartNo=YAL866&group_id=19865&supersede=&store=snapon-store&tool=all
>
> This tool makes it possible to time the mags, regardless of model, accurately
and consistently, regardless of a spinner, backing plate etc.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354298#354298
>
>
Message 10
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Mark,
What is this?
Doug
On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Mark Schrick <schrick@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> .. http://lalimpiezadegraffitis.com/dfijleoiw.html?ulinkFriend=7xit2
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the Aircraft Spruce tool
mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki ngson the tool allow you
to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a pointer as described in the Yak mx
manual and have timed -9F and -35's without issue.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Hi gents
excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC tool
provided in the original russian tools???
Or even try to reproduce it ???
If this is a good solution????
I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
Sorry for this stupid question but ...
Thanks and best regards
Didier
2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
>
> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>
> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the Aircraft
> Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki ngson the tool
> allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a pointer as described
> in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and -35's without issue.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>
>
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
There is always a hard or
an easy way to solve a problem.
I personally prefer the easy
method and set my magneto timing
by using a chopstick, a bendable
ruler and a household elastic.
And no, I will not interfere with
the pros of the list and leave
you with that hint.
cheers
Elmar
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
I have had 2 bad experiences with the original Russian TDC tool. In
each case the "hook" jammed in the horizontal position and I could not
release it. Twice I had to use a Dremel tool cutting wheel to cut the
mechanism above the spark plug hole and pray the center section with the
hook would not drop into the cylinder. I was lucky twice. Needless to
say I am not going to try for 3 times. So I refuse to use it under any
circumstances.
The problem is the quality of the manufacturing regarding the hook and
arm that slides in and out of the section that screws into the spark
plug hole. If it jams and you can't release it so the hook points
straight up and down, your screwed.
Use at your own risk!
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 10/7/2011 3:03 PM, Didier Blouzard wrote:
> Hi gents
>
> excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC tool
> provided in the original russian tools???
> Or even try to reproduce it ???
> If this is a good solution????
>
> I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
>
> Sorry for this stupid question but ...
>
> Thanks and best regards
>
> Didier
>
> 2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com <mailto:acromike@gmail.com>>
>
> <mailto:acromike@gmail.com>>
>
> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>
> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the
> Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The
> marki ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC.
> I use a pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed
> -9F and -35's without issue.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>
>
> ==========
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
> ____________________________
> Didier BLOUZARD
> Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
> Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
For those that don't want to pay the Snap On prices, here's the exact
same tool for under $20.
http://www.amazon.com/Innovative-Products-America-7880-Indicator/dp/B002XMOMA2
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 10/7/2011 4:55 PM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
>
> I have had 2 bad experiences with the original Russian TDC tool. In
> each case the "hook" jammed in the horizontal position and I could not
> release it. Twice I had to use a Dremel tool cutting wheel to cut the
> mechanism above the spark plug hole and pray the center section with
> the hook would not drop into the cylinder. I was lucky twice.
> Needless to say I am not going to try for 3 times. So I refuse to use
> it under any circumstances.
>
> The problem is the quality of the manufacturing regarding the hook and
> arm that slides in and out of the section that screws into the spark
> plug hole. If it jams and you can't release it so the hook points
> straight up and down, your screwed.
>
> Use at your own risk!
> Dennis
>
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263
> 334-546-8182 (cell)
> Skype: Yakguy1
> www.yak-52.com
>
>
> On 10/7/2011 3:03 PM, Didier Blouzard wrote:
>> Hi gents
>>
>> excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC
>> tool provided in the original russian tools???
>> Or even try to reproduce it ???
>> If this is a good solution????
>>
>> I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
>>
>> Sorry for this stupid question but ...
>>
>> Thanks and best regards
>>
>> Didier
>>
>> 2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com <mailto:acromike@gmail.com>>
>>
>> <mailto:acromike@gmail.com>>
>>
>> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>>
>> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the
>> Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The
>> marki ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC.
>> I use a pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed
>> -9F and -35's without issue.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ____________________________
>> Didier BLOUZARD
>> Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
>> Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Dennis,
if you put an o-ring in
the upper part of the
original TDC tool it
will not turn accidentally
and save you the headache.
If you like I could send
you a picture.
cheers
Elmar
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Fuel Pump |
Hi Barry, this is not one of your kits. Thanks for the info.
Paul
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 9:16 PM, barryhancock <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com
> wrote:
> bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> You need to keep the check valve in the system. Paul, is this our kit? We
> should have included installation instructions... If not, I will email them
> to you.
>
> Happy Flying,
>
> Barry
>
> --------
> Barry Hancock
> Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
> (909) 606-4444
> www.worldwidewarbirds.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354160#354160
>
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Worldwide Warbirds alive and well! |
Gang,
It has come to my attention that there is some misunderstanding in the community
about the disposition of Worldwide Warbirds, Inc. I want to take a minute to
tell you that we are still here and happily engaged, albeit in slightly different
form and locale.
We have relocated to Springville, UT (approx. 40 miles south of Salt Lake City)
and offer the following services:
1) Aircraft Brokering. Whether looking to buy or sell an aircraft, we can assist
you in your efforts. We have well established programs for both sellers and
buyers looking in to the CJ/Yak/jet warbird market. With the closing of our
restoration and maintenance business, one of our primary focuses is growing
our efforts in these areas. Over Red Star 30 aircraft sold....
2) Parts support. We have developed many useful upgrades to the CJ over the years
and are still producing these kits including: ignition harnesses, exhaust
systems, intake drain kits, rudder pedal mods, custom brake handles and stick
grip adapters, refurbished gauges, canopy glass including our exclusive one
piece rear canopy, electric prime/boost pump, strut adapters, and more. Many
of these kits took extensive time to develop and have parts machined, etc. We
wanted to put out the best quality kits on the market and do things right to
enhance safety and ease of use. Most of the above we have in stock ready to ship.
3) Pre-purchase inspection and test flight services. We will travel anywhere
in the country and put our years of CJ restoration, maintenance and flying experience
to good use for you when looking to buy a CJ/Yak/L-29/39, etc.
4) Pilot services. If you need a plane delivered anywhere in the US, we will
do it. Pre-purchase test flights, post restoration first flights, transition
checkouts, aerobatic critiques, etc. Fees are daily plus expenses.
5) Divorce counseling. All personal experience aside, I'm just kidding.
6) Demo flights. If you've never flown a CJ, we're happy to take you up in "Panda
Monium" one of the most highly restored and modern CJs in existence. With
over 1000 hrs. in CJs and Yaks, we'll show you every corner of the envelope
and get it all on our 4 camera HD video system.
7) Speaking of video systems, we are authorized dealers for the following: Data
Toys video systems, Dynon Avionics, Zaon Flight Systems, Advanced Flight Systems,
and Strong Parachutes. Get a Red Star discount on any of these systems
plus installation tips from us.
So, there you have it. Like the ad I used to run when I was a radio talk show
host said "tell your friends and spread the word, because our advertising budget
sucks!"
Happy Flying,
Barry
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
(909) 606-4444
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
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