Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
2. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
3. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Roger Kemp)
5. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Walter Lannon)
6. 09:40 AM - How to set magneto timing by using simple tools (Elmar Hegenauer)
7. 10:20 AM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Didier Blouzard)
8. 10:24 AM - Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools (Didier Blouzard)
9. 11:32 AM - Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools (Elmar Hegenauer)
10. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
11. 12:02 PM - An Airplane That Flies like A Bird (Byron Fox)
12. 12:02 PM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
13. 12:10 PM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
14. 12:23 PM - Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
15. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Didier Blouzard)
16. 01:55 PM - Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools (Brian Lloyd)
17. 03:12 PM - Re: Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools (Didier Blouzard)
18. 07:15 PM - Re: Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools (Roger Kemp M.D.)
19. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools (Roger Kemp M.D.)
20. 08:24 PM - Re: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines (Walter Lannon)
21. 08:49 PM - Re: Taming that noisy bugger (keithmckinley)
22. 11:39 PM - Re: An Airplane That Flies like A Bird (CD 2.0)
23. 11:49 PM - Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools (Jan Mevis)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Sorry. Thought he meant it could be used to TIME THE ENGINE. I had
assumed he was responding to the message string.
So yep, agree... it would be better than a screwdriver stuck in the
sparkplug hole to find TDC, which is less than good. :-)
Mark
p.s. I re-started this work address, and will see what happens. You
know what I am talking about Dennis.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
I think what was mean was the tool makes it possible to find TDC. I have
one that I use all the time to find TDC and it works fine. Had to make
one small modification though because when the tool is screwed into the
spark plug hole properly, the moveable section will jam or bind on the
sleeve because of the angle between the moveable section and the
piston. All I did was put a VERY slight bend in the moveable section
which changed the angle just enough to permit it to move up and down
easily.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 10/7/2011 1:35 PM, Yak Pilot wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Yak Pilot<yakplt@yahoo.com>
>
> I respectfully disagree, but that's nothing new.
>
> Mark
>
>
> From: mikspin<acromike@gmail.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 2:14 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "mikspin"<acromike@gmail.com>
>
>
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?search=true&item_ID=75273&PartNo
=YAL866&group_id=19865&supersede=&store=snapon-store&tool=all
>
> This tool makes it possible to time the mags, regardless of model,
accurately and consistently, regardless of a spinner, backing plate etc.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354298#354298
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part. Yes, you are correct on TDC
finder. Correct on pointer, but hard to do with spinner, but Dennis
showed me a tool to take care of that too.
It's been done "by the book" for decades, and it obviously works. That
said, I have my doubts on what the timing REALLY is when using this
method. Sure it works, the engine runs, and the mag drop is fine... but
is every engine set this way accurate to within a degree? I'm not sure,
but I kinda doubt it.
The TIMERITE might work in this regard (only on fixed timing mags; per
Walt's comments) but it may be not much better than what we have.
However, it would not hurt in any way to have the company be convinced
to make the proper parts to support the M-14 engine (Again; with the
right mags).
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mikspin
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 3:35 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the Aircraft
Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki ngson the
tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a pointer as
described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and -35's without
issue.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Didier,
If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE worked
corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and HOPEFULLY
time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable results. You
could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any other
tools. It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead Center tool,
which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that also
revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the
difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of it. In
any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the proper
position so as to set the mags properly. Putting a piece of safety wire
on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is all well
and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet another
tool, etc. There is also the matter of gear lash in the planetary gear
assy, since this is a geared engine. Get that wrong, and your timing is
going to incorrect as well.
In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip mounted
externally on ANY engine. Just how accurate is that piece? Do you know
for sure? Nope... no way you can know for sure. When you use something
that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I believe you
can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something someone
else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.
Listen... to all that read this. I am not recommending to anyone that
they change whatever they happen to like doing. There is no argument or
debate intended here. The goal was simply to get a company to make
parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines. Whether
anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really not the
point. It just never hurts to have other options.
Or am I missing something here? Wouldn't be the first time for that
either.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
Blouzard
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
Hi gents
excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC tool
provided in the original russian tools???
Or even try to reproduce it ???
If this is a good solution????
I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
Sorry for this stupid question but ...
Thanks and best regards
Didier
2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the
Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki
ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a
pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and -35's
without issue.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
==========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
mark,
from what I can tell so far, the Russian timing light does pretty much that. Getting
your hands on one though is the challenge.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>Sent: Oct 11, 2011 10:30 AM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
>
>Didier,
>
>If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE worked
>corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and HOPEFULLY
>time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable results. You
>could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any other
>tools. It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead Center tool,
>which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that also
>revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the
>difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of it. In
>any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the proper
>position so as to set the mags properly. Putting a piece of safety wire
>on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is all well
>and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet another
>tool, etc. There is also the matter of gear lash in the planetary gear
>assy, since this is a geared engine. Get that wrong, and your timing is
>going to incorrect as well.
>
>In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip mounted
>externally on ANY engine. Just how accurate is that piece? Do you know
>for sure? Nope... no way you can know for sure. When you use something
>that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I believe you
>can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something someone
>else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.
>
>Listen... to all that read this. I am not recommending to anyone that
>they change whatever they happen to like doing. There is no argument or
>debate intended here. The goal was simply to get a company to make
>parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines. Whether
>anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really not the
>point. It just never hurts to have other options.
>
>Or am I missing something here? Wouldn't be the first time for that
>either.
>
>Mark
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
>Blouzard
>Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:04 PM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
>Hi gents
>
>excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC tool
>provided in the original russian tools???
>Or even try to reproduce it ???
>If this is a good solution????
>
>I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
>
>Sorry for this stupid question but ...
>
>Thanks and best regards
>
>Didier
>
>
>2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>
> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the
>Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki
>ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a
>pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and -35's
>without issue.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>____________________________
>Didier BLOUZARD
>Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
>Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
The TIMERITE is, as Mark indicated, a very dependable and accurate
instrument. It is relatively simple and easy to use. Since it is using
piston position directly there is no need for a precise location of TDC (in
angular terms) only an assurance that the piston is at TDC on the
compression stroke. This can be determined with your thumb.
If ATS could be persuaded to manufacture the necessary arm and scale for
their existing unit it would be by far the best way to time the M14P with
M9F (fixed spark) mags.
which is most engines.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Didier,
>
> If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE worked
> corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and HOPEFULLY
> time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable results. You
> could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any other
> tools. It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead Center tool,
> which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that also
> revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the
> difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of it. In
> any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the proper
> position so as to set the mags properly. Putting a piece of safety wire
> on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is all well
> and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet another
> tool, etc. There is also the matter of gear lash in the planetary gear
> assy, since this is a geared engine. Get that wrong, and your timing is
> going to incorrect as well.
>
> In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip mounted
> externally on ANY engine. Just how accurate is that piece? Do you know
> for sure? Nope... no way you can know for sure. When you use something
> that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I believe you
> can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something someone
> else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.
>
> Listen... to all that read this. I am not recommending to anyone that
> they change whatever they happen to like doing. There is no argument or
> debate intended here. The goal was simply to get a company to make
> parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines. Whether
> anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really not the
> point. It just never hurts to have other options.
>
> Or am I missing something here? Wouldn't be the first time for that
> either.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
> Blouzard
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
> Hi gents
>
> excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC tool
> provided in the original russian tools???
> Or even try to reproduce it ???
> If this is a good solution????
>
> I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
>
> Sorry for this stupid question but ...
>
> Thanks and best regards
>
> Didier
>
>
> 2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>
> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the
> Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki
> ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a
> pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and -35's
> without issue.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>
>
> ==========
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
> ____________________________
> Didier BLOUZARD
> Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
> Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | How to set magneto timing by using simple tools |
Since 6 years I am using a pointy
chopstick, an elastic and a bendable
ruler to set my magnetos.
First I use the original TDC tool
(with a tight fitting o-ring installed
below the pointer pin at the top) to
find TD.
Then I jam the ruler between the half
way open vanes and outer cowling
ring. There are 28 shutters, so divide
them by 360 degrees and you have
exactly 12.86 degrees between 2 vanes.
I affix the pointy chopstick to the propeller
using the elastic, are you still with me?
The TDC tool shows the piston has reached TD,
I move the ruler so the chopstick points
on zero. Then I pull the prop further until
the TDC tool pointer starts to move again,
now I have the dwell factor and just divide
it by 2, indicating the exact TDC on the ruler.
Now I look at the embossed pre-setting number
on my magneto (e.g. 23 degrees), subtract
this number from the pre-ignition angle with
fully advanced flyweights (e.g. 31 or 27 degrees,
depends on your engine), multiply it by the
gear ratio, in my case 0.787 and set my timing.
Job done and no fancy tools involved.
If someone is interested, I could
send you a picture.
cheers
Elmar
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
OK Mark
I get it.
We are very happy in Europe to know that in the US you know how to reproduce
tools and parts for our old plane. And often better than the original. So
yes I get it and I will also ring Timerite to add a voice to the count. Even
if at the end everybody is using whatever tool tyhey want at least that
would fix a standard tool.
Get it
thanks for all your effort to make me understand
Cheers and FLY SAFE PLEASE for the sake of the Yak community.
Didier
2011/10/11 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Didier,
>
> If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE worked
> corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and HOPEFULLY
> time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable results. You
> could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any other
> tools. It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead Center tool,
> which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that also
> revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the
> difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of it. In
> any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the proper
> position so as to set the mags properly. Putting a piece of safety wire
> on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is all well
> and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet another
> tool, etc. There is also the matter of gear lash in the planetary gear
> assy, since this is a geared engine. Get that wrong, and your timing is
> going to incorrect as well.
>
> In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip mounted
> externally on ANY engine. Just how accurate is that piece? Do you know
> for sure? Nope... no way you can know for sure. When you use something
> that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I believe you
> can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something someone
> else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.
>
> Listen... to all that read this. I am not recommending to anyone that
> they change whatever they happen to like doing. There is no argument or
> debate intended here. The goal was simply to get a company to make
> parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines. Whether
> anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really not the
> point. It just never hurts to have other options.
>
> Or am I missing something here? Wouldn't be the first time for that
> either.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
> Blouzard
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
> Hi gents
>
> excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC tool
> provided in the original russian tools???
> Or even try to reproduce it ???
> If this is a good solution????
>
> I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
>
> Sorry for this stupid question but ...
>
> Thanks and best regards
>
> Didier
>
>
> 2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>
> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the
> Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki
> ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a
> pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and -35's
> without issue.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>
>
> ==========
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
> ____________________________
> Didier BLOUZARD
> Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
> Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>
>
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools |
Elmar,
I AM INTERESTED not only by pictures but by a more complete : How to time
ones magneto for the DUMB (I would be the dumb OK!!!)
Tutorials on magneto.
I have done one for : How to change a tire in less than five minutes" for
the dumb"....that's my level in mechanic.
But I am learning.
Pics would be great
thanks to propose
Didier Blouzard from Paris (yesss in France)
2011/10/11 Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
>
> Since 6 years I am using a pointy
> chopstick, an elastic and a bendable
> ruler to set my magnetos.
>
> First I use the original TDC tool
> (with a tight fitting o-ring installed
> below the pointer pin at the top) to
> find TD.
>
> Then I jam the ruler between the half
> way open vanes and outer cowling
> ring. There are 28 shutters, so divide
> them by 360 degrees and you have
> exactly 12.86 degrees between 2 vanes.
>
> I affix the pointy chopstick to the propeller
> using the elastic, are you still with me?
>
> The TDC tool shows the piston has reached TD,
> I move the ruler so the chopstick points
> on zero. Then I pull the prop further until
> the TDC tool pointer starts to move again,
> now I have the dwell factor and just divide
> it by 2, indicating the exact TDC on the ruler.
>
> Now I look at the embossed pre-setting number
> on my magneto (e.g. 23 degrees), subtract
> this number from the pre-ignition angle with
> fully advanced flyweights (e.g. 31 or 27 degrees,
> depends on your engine), multiply it by the
> gear ratio, in my case 0.787 and set my timing.
>
> Job done and no fancy tools involved.
>
> If someone is interested, I could
> send you a picture.
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools |
Bonjour Didier,
the tight fitting o-ring is below
the red dot. Its applied friction
hampers the tool to turn while
you are pulling the prop. But don't
screw it in all the way, it might
disengage the pointer from the push-rod
and will get you into "Teufel's Kueche",
Dennis has been there twice.
Again, IMO the original TDC indicator is NOT
a timing setting tool but a much more precise
TDC and TDC-dwell finding contraption through
its higher push-rod to pointer ratio.
More pictures to follow the next days.
cheers
Elmar
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Excuse me? "The Russian Timing Light" ?? Not aware of same. How does it work?
Most timing lights I have used are triggered off the spark plug firing. That
then fires the light. But this is a geared engine? I am also not so sure
I would want to be sitting there with the engine running and the prop RIGHT THERE!
Any more details on this?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
mark,
from what I can tell so far, the Russian timing light does pretty much that. Getting
your hands on one though is the challenge.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>Sent: Oct 11, 2011 10:30 AM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
>
>Didier,
>
>If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE worked
>corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and HOPEFULLY
>time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable results. You
>could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any other
>tools. It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead Center tool,
>which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that also
>revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the
>difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of it. In
>any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the proper
>position so as to set the mags properly. Putting a piece of safety wire
>on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is all well
>and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet another
>tool, etc. There is also the matter of gear lash in the planetary gear
>assy, since this is a geared engine. Get that wrong, and your timing is
>going to incorrect as well.
>
>In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip mounted
>externally on ANY engine. Just how accurate is that piece? Do you know
>for sure? Nope... no way you can know for sure. When you use something
>that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I believe you
>can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something someone
>else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.
>
>Listen... to all that read this. I am not recommending to anyone that
>they change whatever they happen to like doing. There is no argument or
>debate intended here. The goal was simply to get a company to make
>parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines. Whether
>anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really not the
>point. It just never hurts to have other options.
>
>Or am I missing something here? Wouldn't be the first time for that
>either.
>
>Mark
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
>Blouzard
>Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:04 PM
>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
>Hi gents
>
>excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC tool
>provided in the original russian tools???
>Or even try to reproduce it ???
>If this is a good solution????
>
>I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
>
>Sorry for this stupid question but ...
>
>Thanks and best regards
>
>Didier
>
>
>2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>
> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the
>Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki
>ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a
>pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and -35's
>without issue.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>____________________________
>Didier BLOUZARD
>Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
>Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | An Airplane That Flies like A Bird |
An Airplane That Flies like A Bird
http://www.flixxy.com/airplane-flies-like-a-bird.htm#.TpMxiUT1ywg.email
--
... Blitz
Byron M. Fox
80 Milland Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941
415-307-2405
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Thanks for making perfectly clear what I was struggling to get across.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
The TIMERITE is, as Mark indicated, a very dependable and accurate
instrument. It is relatively simple and easy to use. Since it is using
piston position directly there is no need for a precise location of TDC
(in
angular terms) only an assurance that the piston is at TDC on the
compression stroke. This can be determined with your thumb.
If ATS could be persuaded to manufacture the necessary arm and scale for
their existing unit it would be by far the best way to time the M14P
with
M9F (fixed spark) mags.
which is most engines.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Didier,
>
> If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE worked
> corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and HOPEFULLY
> time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable results.
You
> could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any other
> tools. It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead Center
tool,
> which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that also
> revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the
> difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of it. In
> any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the proper
> position so as to set the mags properly. Putting a piece of safety
wire
> on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is all
well
> and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet another
> tool, etc. There is also the matter of gear lash in the planetary
gear
> assy, since this is a geared engine. Get that wrong, and your timing
is
> going to incorrect as well.
>
> In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip mounted
> externally on ANY engine. Just how accurate is that piece? Do you
know
> for sure? Nope... no way you can know for sure. When you use
something
> that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I believe
you
> can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something
someone
> else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.
>
> Listen... to all that read this. I am not recommending to anyone that
> they change whatever they happen to like doing. There is no argument
or
> debate intended here. The goal was simply to get a company to make
> parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines.
Whether
> anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really not the
> point. It just never hurts to have other options.
>
> Or am I missing something here? Wouldn't be the first time for that
> either.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
> Blouzard
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
> Hi gents
>
> excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC tool
> provided in the original russian tools???
> Or even try to reproduce it ???
> If this is a good solution????
>
> I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
>
> Sorry for this stupid question but ...
>
> Thanks and best regards
>
> Didier
>
>
> 2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>
> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the
> Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki
> ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a
> pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and -35's
> without issue.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>
>
> ==========
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
> ____________________________
> Didier BLOUZARD
> Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
> Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com
<mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Thanks Didier, and my apologies for explaining all this poorly. Please
see Walt's comments for a clear and concise explanation. Also, my last
post to you was not proof read very carefully. Sorry for all the
grammatical errors as well!
Take care, and thanks for all your help with other issues over in Europe
as well.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
Blouzard
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
OK Mark
I get it.
We are very happy in Europe to know that in the US you know how to
reproduce tools and parts for our old plane. And often better than the
original. So yes I get it and I will also ring Timerite to add a voice
to the count. Even if at the end everybody is using whatever tool tyhey
want at least that would fix a standard tool.
Get it
thanks for all your effort to make me understand
Cheers and FLY SAFE PLEASE for the sake of the Yak community.
Didier
2011/10/11 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Didier,
If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE
worked
corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and
HOPEFULLY
time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable
results. You
could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any
other
tools. It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead
Center tool,
which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that
also
revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the
difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of
it. In
any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the
proper
position so as to set the mags properly. Putting a piece of
safety wire
on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is
all well
and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet
another
tool, etc. There is also the matter of gear lash in the
planetary gear
assy, since this is a geared engine. Get that wrong, and your
timing is
going to incorrect as well.
In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip
mounted
externally on ANY engine. Just how accurate is that piece? Do
you know
for sure? Nope... no way you can know for sure. When you use
something
that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I
believe you
can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something
someone
else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.
Listen... to all that read this. I am not recommending to
anyone that
they change whatever they happen to like doing. There is no
argument or
debate intended here. The goal was simply to get a company to
make
parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines.
Whether
anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really
not the
point. It just never hurts to have other options.
Or am I missing something here? Wouldn't be the first time for
that
either.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
Blouzard
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:04 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
Hi gents
excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the
TDC tool
provided in the original russian tools???
Or even try to reproduce it ???
If this is a good solution????
I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day
perhaps.
Sorry for this stupid question but ...
Thanks and best regards
Didier
2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
<acromike@gmail.com>
Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or
the
Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The
marki
ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I
use a
pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and
-35's
without issue.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
==========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72 <tel:%2B33%206%2024%2024%2036%2072>
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com
<mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
==========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
Message 14
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| Subject: | How to set magneto timing by using simple tools |
Setting everything in the Russian Mags is more complicated than just
getting the points to open and close at the proper time using whatever
method. Which is really all we have talked about here. That mag is one
very complicated son of a gun. Suggest you also talk to Dennis about
getting a picture he has.
The whole issue of timing ends up being a simple matter of when you
actually fire the spark plug in relationship to exactly where the piston
is on the compression stroke. Period, end of story. That is what it
all adds up to and ends up doing. BANG! Fires the air fuel mixture.
However, the variables involved here include:
1. Adjustment to the coupling adapter on the bottom of the mag.
2. Adjustment of the mag housing in relationship to the engine case.
3. Adjustment of the Mag Rotor in relationship to the mag housing.
4. Adjustment of Point Gap/breaker plate.
5. Spark Plug Gap.
All of these things impact when the spark plug actually produces the
spark.
I am not an expert on M-14 engine, or radials of any kind really. I am
just another person that is learning as he goes. That said, I have
learned that on other engines, when that spark plug fires can be a
surprise when you find out when it ACTUALLY fires, compared to when you
THOUGHT it WOULD fire.
A timing light would be nice, but I can't figure out how that would work
on a geared engine, let alone inches from the prop.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
Blouzard
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools
Elmar,
I AM INTERESTED not only by pictures but by a more complete : How to
time ones magneto for the DUMB (I would be the dumb OK!!!)
Tutorials on magneto.
I have done one for : How to change a tire in less than five minutes"
for the dumb"....that's my level in mechanic.
But I am learning.
Pics would be great
thanks to propose
Didier Blouzard from Paris (yesss in France)
2011/10/11 Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
<samira.h@shaw.ca>
Since 6 years I am using a pointy
chopstick, an elastic and a bendable
ruler to set my magnetos.
First I use the original TDC tool
(with a tight fitting o-ring installed
below the pointer pin at the top) to
find TD.
Then I jam the ruler between the half
way open vanes and outer cowling
ring. There are 28 shutters, so divide
them by 360 degrees and you have
exactly 12.86 degrees between 2 vanes.
I affix the pointy chopstick to the propeller
using the elastic, are you still with me?
The TDC tool shows the piston has reached TD,
I move the ruler so the chopstick points
on zero. Then I pull the prop further until
the TDC tool pointer starts to move again,
now I have the dwell factor and just divide
it by 2, indicating the exact TDC on the ruler.
Now I look at the embossed pre-setting number
on my magneto (e.g. 23 degrees), subtract
this number from the pre-ignition angle with
fully advanced flyweights (e.g. 31 or 27 degrees,
depends on your engine), multiply it by the
gear ratio, in my case 0.787 and set my timing.
Job done and no fancy tools involved.
If someone is interested, I could
send you a picture.
cheers
Elmar
==========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Mark
always a pleasure speaking with pleasant and passionnate people.
Thanks to you Mark and with you all the people that we know well.
Now I know what it is to try to do something when nobody does and receive
only criticism and misplaced remarks.....
You there on the other side are giving us strenght.
kind regards
Didier
2011/10/11 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Thanks Didier, and my apologies for explaining all this poorly. Please
> see Walt's comments for a clear and concise explanation. Also, my last
> post to you was not proof read very carefully. Sorry for all the
> grammatical errors as well!
>
> Take care, and thanks for all your help with other issues over in Europe
> as well.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
> Blouzard
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 1:17 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
> OK Mark
>
> I get it.
> We are very happy in Europe to know that in the US you know how to
> reproduce tools and parts for our old plane. And often better than the
> original. So yes I get it and I will also ring Timerite to add a voice
> to the count. Even if at the end everybody is using whatever tool tyhey
> want at least that would fix a standard tool.
>
> Get it
>
> thanks for all your effort to make me understand
>
> Cheers and FLY SAFE PLEASE for the sake of the Yak community.
>
> Didier
>
>
> 2011/10/11 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Didier,
>
> If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE
> worked
> corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and
> HOPEFULLY
> time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable
> results. You
> could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any
> other
> tools. It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead
> Center tool,
> which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that
> also
> revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the
> difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of
> it. In
> any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the
> proper
> position so as to set the mags properly. Putting a piece of
> safety wire
> on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is
> all well
> and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet
> another
> tool, etc. There is also the matter of gear lash in the
> planetary gear
> assy, since this is a geared engine. Get that wrong, and your
> timing is
> going to incorrect as well.
>
> In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip
> mounted
> externally on ANY engine. Just how accurate is that piece? Do
> you know
> for sure? Nope... no way you can know for sure. When you use
> something
> that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I
> believe you
> can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something
> someone
> else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.
>
> Listen... to all that read this. I am not recommending to
> anyone that
> they change whatever they happen to like doing. There is no
> argument or
> debate intended here. The goal was simply to get a company to
> make
> parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines.
> Whether
> anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really
> not the
> point. It just never hurts to have other options.
>
> Or am I missing something here? Wouldn't be the first time for
> that
> either.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
> Blouzard
> Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
> Hi gents
>
> excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the
> TDC tool
> provided in the original russian tools???
> Or even try to reproduce it ???
> If this is a good solution????
>
> I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day
> perhaps.
>
> Sorry for this stupid question but ...
>
> Thanks and best regards
>
> Didier
>
>
> 2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
>
>
> <acromike@gmail.com>
>
> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>
> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or
> the
> Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The
> marki
> ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I
> use a
> pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and
> -35's
> without issue.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>
>
> ==========
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
> ____________________________
> Didier BLOUZARD
> Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72 <tel:%2B33%206%2024%2024%2036%2072>
>
> Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com
> <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>
>
> ==========
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
> ____________________________
> Didier BLOUZARD
> Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
> Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>
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____________________________
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Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools |
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Setting everything in the Russian Mags is more complicated than just
> getting the points to open and close at the proper time using whatever
> method. Which is really all we have talked about here. That mag is one
> very complicated son of a gun. Suggest you also talk to Dennis about
> getting a picture he has.
>
> The whole issue of timing ends up being a simple matter of when you
> actually fire the spark plug in relationship to exactly where the piston
> is on the compression stroke. Period, end of story. That is what it
> all adds up to and ends up doing. BANG! Fires the air fuel mixture.
>
> However, the variables involved here include:
>
> 1. Adjustment to the coupling adapter on the bottom of the mag.
> 2. Adjustment of the mag housing in relationship to the engine case.
> 3. Adjustment of the Mag Rotor in relationship to the mag housing.
> 4. Adjustment of Point Gap/breaker plate.
> 5. Spark Plug Gap.
>
There is an excellent treatise on the care and feeding of magneto ignition
systems. While it is directed at the Bendix and Slick mags in common use on
Lycoming and Continental flat engines, the theory is applicable to all
magnetos.
http://www.sacskyranch.com/pubsmag.htm
I have a copy of this book and it explains things like the relationship
between the E-gap angle, the points in the primary opening, distributor
angle, and crank angle. Excellent reading if you really want to understand
these things.
OTOH, electronic ignition simplifies all this and makes it all intuitively
understandable. :-)
> All of these things impact when the spark plug actually produces the
> spark.
>
> I am not an expert on M-14 engine, or radials of any kind really. I am
> just another person that is learning as he goes. That said, I have
> learned that on other engines, when that spark plug fires can be a
> surprise when you find out when it ACTUALLY fires, compared to when you
> THOUGHT it WOULD fire.
>
> A timing light would be nice, but I can't figure out how that would work
> on a geared engine, let alone inches from the prop.
>
You are right; setting the timing dynamically, i.e. when plug 1 fires,
requires access to the crank angle or cam angle independent of the gear
reduction system. But since most of our mags use fixed timing, timing the
engine statically is just fine. (Housai mags use RPM-based spark advance so
they have advanced all the way to 1930's technology!)
Coil-per-plug and wasted-spark systems that dispense with the distributor
are SOOO much simpler.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools |
Soo simple but efficient.
Thanks a lot for the hint. That's a usefull one.
Thanks a lot Elmar
Didier
2011/10/11 Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
> Bonjour Didier,
>
> the tight fitting o-ring is below
> the red dot. Its applied friction
> hampers the tool to turn while
> you are pulling the prop. But don't
> screw it in all the way, it might
> disengage the pointer from the push-rod
> and will get you into "Teufel's Kueche",
> Dennis has been there twice.
>
> Again, IMO the original TDC indicator is NOT
> a timing setting tool but a much more precise
> TDC and TDC-dwell finding contraption through
> its higher push-rod to pointer ratio.
>
> More pictures to follow the next days.
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools |
Elmar,
Can you send a picture of where you placed the O ring. I'm soon to be needin
g the Device in a couple weeks as I'm rebuilding my M14P after it was FOD'd.
This has been a real educational experience to say the least.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 11, 2011, at 5:09 PM, Didier Blouzard <didier.blouzard@gmail.com> wro
te:
> Soo simple but efficient.
> Thanks a lot for the hint. That's a usefull one.
>
> Thanks a lot Elmar
>
> Didier
>
> 2011/10/11 Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
> Bonjour Didier,
>
> the tight fitting o-ring is below
> the red dot. Its applied friction
> hampers the tool to turn while
> you are pulling the prop. But don't
> screw it in all the way, it might
> disengage the pointer from the push-rod
> and will get you into "Teufel's Kueche",
> Dennis has been there twice.
>
> Again, IMO the original TDC indicator is NOT
> a timing setting tool but a much more precise
> TDC and TDC-dwell finding contraption through
> its higher push-rod to pointer ratio.
>
> More pictures to follow the next days.
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
>
>
> --
> ____________________________
> Didier BLOUZARD
> Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
> Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools |
Elmar,
Never mind. Found it.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:29 PM, Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Bonjour Didier,
>
> the tight fitting o-ring is below
> the red dot. Its applied friction
> hampers the tool to turn while
> you are pulling the prop. But don't
> screw it in all the way, it might
> disengage the pointer from the push-rod
> and will get you into "Teufel's Kueche",
> Dennis has been there twice.
>
> Again, IMO the original TDC indicator is NOT
> a timing setting tool but a much more precise
> TDC and TDC-dwell finding contraption through
> its higher push-rod to pointer ratio.
>
> More pictures to follow the next days.
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
> <TDC-Fix1.jpg>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Recommendation M-14 engines |
Maybe the Russian timing light looks somrthing like the Russian land mine
detector.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Excuse me? "The Russian Timing Light" ?? Not aware of same. How does it
> work? Most timing lights I have used are triggered off the spark plug
> firing. That then fires the light. But this is a geared engine? I am
> also not so sure I would want to be sitting there with the engine running
> and the prop RIGHT THERE!
>
> Any more details on this?
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:57 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>
>
> mark,
> from what I can tell so far, the Russian timing light does pretty much
> that. Getting your hands on one though is the challenge.
> Doc
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
>><mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>Sent: Oct 11, 2011 10:30 AM
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>>
>>MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>>Didier,
>>
>>If (and "if" runs into several different issues), the TIMERITE worked
>>corrected, you could screw it into the spark plug hole and HOPEFULLY
>>time the engine to within a degree or less with repeatable results. You
>>could also do it with a spinner on the engine, and without any other
>>tools. It is not a matter of simply replacing the Top Dead Center tool,
>>which personally I do not find very accurate.... .but again that also
>>revolves around Walt's comments regarding piston dwell and the
>>difficulty in determining just exactly where TDC is because of it. In
>>any case, once you find TDC, you need to move the engine to the proper
>>position so as to set the mags properly. Putting a piece of safety wire
>>on the front and trying to use the front engine timing strip is all well
>>and good, but ... again the issue of prop spinners, using yet another
>>tool, etc. There is also the matter of gear lash in the planetary gear
>>assy, since this is a geared engine. Get that wrong, and your timing is
>>going to incorrect as well.
>>
>>In addition, I always have been suspect of a timing strip mounted
>>externally on ANY engine. Just how accurate is that piece? Do you know
>>for sure? Nope... no way you can know for sure. When you use something
>>that is totally related to actual engine piston movement, I believe you
>>can get much more accurate and you are not relying on something someone
>>else "calibrated" that is external on the engine.
>>
>>Listen... to all that read this. I am not recommending to anyone that
>>they change whatever they happen to like doing. There is no argument or
>>debate intended here. The goal was simply to get a company to make
>>parts that would allow their device to be used on M-14 engines. Whether
>>anyone here decides that they want to use it or not is really not the
>>point. It just never hurts to have other options.
>>
>>Or am I missing something here? Wouldn't be the first time for that
>>either.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Didier
>>Blouzard
>>Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:04 PM
>>To: yak-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Recommendation M-14 engines
>>
>>Hi gents
>>
>>excuse me but I perhaps missed something, but why not use the TDC tool
>>provided in the original russian tools???
>>Or even try to reproduce it ???
>>If this is a good solution????
>>
>>I have one but I don't have the knowledge to use it. One day perhaps.
>>
>>Sorry for this stupid question but ...
>>
>>Thanks and best regards
>>
>>Didier
>>
>>
>>2011/10/7 mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yep Dennis that's the case and thank you.
>>
>> I should have further stated that you need a pointer (or the
>>Aircraft Spruce tool mentioned) along with this TDC finder. The marki
>>ngson the tool allow you to easily bracket the dwell at TDC. I use a
>>pointer as described in the Yak mx manual and have timed -9F and -35's
>>without issue.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354306#354306
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>____________________________
>>Didier BLOUZARD
>>Portable : +33 6 24 24 36 72
>>Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com <mailto:didier.blouzard@anolistech.fr>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Taming that noisy bugger |
http://www.cep-usa.com/
--------
Keith McKinley
700HS
KFIT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354766#354766
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: An Airplane That Flies like A Bird |
Sure... there may be great applications for this technology, but it would be impractical
to use it as an airplane or helicopter. It's more specifically, strength
to weight ratio. Although it only takes 80watts to make 400g fly, if they
have a birdplane with a weight of 5000 lbs maybe theyll need to plug it into
a nuclear reactor :P
Ok, if we have, which we dont have, lightweight materials that would make any plane
or helicopter weigh around 100kg. the largest "bird" that ever lived, the
Quetzalcoatlus was around that weight since it takes an average of 50watts
to make 0,5kg fly, then it would take 10.000 watts for 100kg (220 pounds). Not
to mention that currently there is no material that could take this kind of
force while still being light. What works in low weight doesnt necessarily mean
it could work on anything bigger so based on the current technological standards,
this experiment wouldnt be of any use.
We actually have robots that have higher strength to weight ratio than a human.
They make all your cars, etc. But the question is whether we can balance everything
such that all this becomes portable and operates in a fashion that mother
nature has invented.
They are also working on a hummingbird, apparently "quick flapping" is good for
small-scale aerodynamics.
Carl
> An Airplane That Flies like A Bird
>
> http://www.flixxy.com/airplane-flies-like-a-bird.htm#.TpMxiUT1ywg.email (http://www.flixxy.com/airplane-flies-like-a-bird.htm#.TpMxiUT1ywg.email)
>
> ... Blitz
>
> Byron M. Fox
> 80 Milland Drive
> Mill Valley, CA 94941
> 415-307-2405
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354769#354769
Message 23
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| Subject: | How to set magneto timing by using simple tools |
Soon there'll be laser-plugs on the market. Three beams that can even be
direction-controlled and fire multiple sparks at their crossing point
(programmable further down!).
No more high voltage systems. It took some time to develop them (making the
lasers small enough to fit in the casing of a spark plug).
As soon as mass production starts, prices will be reasonable (I hope).
You can use the mag points to trigger the electronics.
I already do that with an MSD device (Mark Bitterlich's idea) on my M14R. I
did the timing the classical way and it works well.
5 hours flown with it until now and the results are better than expected.
Better combustion, much smoother run, particularly at low RPM and with a
cold engine.
Further testing is still needed, but unfortunately, I'm grounded (as so many
others in Europe).
BR
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: dinsdag 11 oktober 2011 22:53
Subject: Re: Yak-List: How to set magneto timing by using simple tools
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Setting everything in the Russian Mags is more complicated than just
getting the points to open and close at the proper time using whatever
method. Which is really all we have talked about here. That mag is one
very complicated son of a gun. Suggest you also talk to Dennis about
getting a picture he has.
The whole issue of timing ends up being a simple matter of when you
actually fire the spark plug in relationship to exactly where the piston
is on the compression stroke. Period, end of story. That is what it
all adds up to and ends up doing. BANG! Fires the air fuel mixture.
However, the variables involved here include:
1. Adjustment to the coupling adapter on the bottom of the mag.
2. Adjustment of the mag housing in relationship to the engine case.
3. Adjustment of the Mag Rotor in relationship to the mag housing.
4. Adjustment of Point Gap/breaker plate.
5. Spark Plug Gap.
There is an excellent treatise on the care and feeding of magneto ignition
systems. While it is directed at the Bendix and Slick mags in common use on
Lycoming and Continental flat engines, the theory is applicable to all
magnetos.
http://www.sacskyranch.com/pubsmag.htm
I have a copy of this book and it explains things like the relationship
between the E-gap angle, the points in the primary opening, distributor
angle, and crank angle. Excellent reading if you really want to understand
these things.
OTOH, electronic ignition simplifies all this and makes it all intuitively
understandable. :-)
All of these things impact when the spark plug actually produces the
spark.
I am not an expert on M-14 engine, or radials of any kind really. I am
just another person that is learning as he goes. That said, I have
learned that on other engines, when that spark plug fires can be a
surprise when you find out when it ACTUALLY fires, compared to when you
THOUGHT it WOULD fire.
A timing light would be nice, but I can't figure out how that would work
on a geared engine, let alone inches from the prop.
You are right; setting the timing dynamically, i.e. when plug 1 fires,
requires access to the crank angle or cam angle independent of the gear
reduction system. But since most of our mags use fixed timing, timing the
engine statically is just fine. (Housai mags use RPM-based spark advance so
they have advanced all the way to 1930's technology!)
Coil-per-plug and wasted-spark systems that dispense with the distributor
are SOOO much simpler.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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