Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:22 AM - Re:Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (Cpayne)
2. 04:03 AM - Unleaded 95 octane pump gas and the Housai (Harv)
3. 05:21 AM - Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (George Coy)
4. 08:05 AM - air distributor start valve adjustment (Joe Howse)
5. 08:43 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Brian Lloyd)
6. 08:56 AM - Re: Unleaded 95 octane pump gas and the Housai (Brian Lloyd)
7. 08:59 AM - Re: air distributor start valve adjustment (doug sapp)
8. 09:17 AM - need some help (doug sapp)
9. 03:40 PM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Nel Sprague)
10. 03:51 PM - Kingman Red Star Event (Warren Hill)
11. 04:05 PM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Brian Lloyd)
12. 04:06 PM - Re: Kingman Red Star Event (Brian Lloyd)
13. 04:40 PM - Re: need some help (Herb Coussons)
14. 05:13 PM - Re: need some help (doug sapp)
15. 09:37 PM - Re: Re:Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (Walter Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re:Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
Walt,
I believe the allowance is based on gear lash if setting by the prop and then there
is measurement error factor. The Polish manual has helped me to "interpret"
the descriptions in the Chinese manuals. I use one of those calibrated crank
angle spark-plug hole dial indicators that were sold about 8 years or so ago.
In the magneto timing paper I wrote for the RPA Store, there is a table of correction
values I calculated for each different advance angle.
Craig Payne
Message 2
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| Subject: | Unleaded 95 octane pump gas and the Housai |
Good morning
Has anyone on here got any longer term expericence of running regular automotive
unleaded fuel in the CJ-6a?
Any problems with rubber hoses or seals perishing?
I'm just wondering what the praticalities of using it are and if it would be wise
(if attmepted) to mix it up say 3 fill of unleaded then one fill-up with 100LL
OR 3/4 full with unleaded then top off with 100LL.
Rgs
Harv
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355267#355267
Message 3
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| Subject: | Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
Walter, Perhaps you are not taking into account the gear ratio between the
magneto and the crankshaft. On the M14P it is 1.125 to 1.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 8:17 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags.
A question for everyone:
All of the engine manuals I have seen to date give a mag setting angle
relative to the propellor and corresponding to the individual magneto
advance angle.
That makes good sense since the prop shaft is the only accessible reference.
The Polish manual for the AI14R engine is the only one to also include the
corresponding crankshaft angles, probably for educational purposes.
All manuals of course give the desired ignition advance angle for the model
engine. Theoretically, knowing that information, one can then determine the
setting angle for the particular magneto with simple math.
For example the Huosai 6A ignition angle is 31 +/- 1 deg. BTDC (from the
Maint. manual - the Specs. manual is different - another question) and, lets
say we are installing a 25 deg auto advance mag.
31 - 25 = 6. The setting angle is 6 degs BTDC with reference to the
Crankshaft. To determine the prop angle simply multiply by the gear ratio:-
6 X 0.787 = 4.7 Deg.
Now check the table in the manual and for a 25 deg mag you will find a
setting angle of 6.9 deg.
This applies to all engine models using the auto advance mags. The "fudge
factor" varies slightly but always within 2 - 3 deg. and toward retard.
The question is " WHY is there a fudge factor". I have one theory but the
fact is I do not know.
Does anyone else???
Message 4
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| Subject: | air distributor start valve adjustment |
first; How is the valve out of adjustment? unless removed from the
engine I cannot see how tht can happen.
However, once removed, replacing it is a nightmare without the fixing
tool to hold the slide part in position.
The Chinese tool works fine on the Huosai engine and will work on the
M14 with a small added tab
Joe
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: yak-list: ignition timing |
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net
> wrote:
> **
> I don't think that one needs to worry about the fudge factor. The engines
> will run better with 2-3 degrees more timing than the book calls for.
> Remember the Chinese certified the engines for 70 octane fuel, so with 100
> octane you have a huge detonation margin.
>
OTOH, if you get too much advance, even if you don't get detonation, you can
go past the point of maximum torque, which is what you are shooting for.
Since the mags on the Huosai engine have centrifugal (RPM-base) advance, I
would stick with the timing settings from the factory unless you have the
engine in a test cell and can measure the hook curve (change in torque with
variation in timing) for your particular engine. Remember also that optimal
timing (max torque) occurs at different amounts of advance at different
engine loads (MAP) as well as RPM. Ever wonder why cars had vacuum advance
in addition to centrifugal advance? That's why. That's another reason to
want a smarter ignition system.
This begs the question, if you have mags with RPM-based advance available,
why would anyone run fixed-timed mags? And if you have electronic ignition
available that allows for variable timing with both RPM and load, why would
anyone run mags at all?
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Unleaded 95 octane pump gas and the Housai |
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:00 AM, Harv <martin.harvey@kbr.com> wrote:
>
> Good morning
>
> Has anyone on here got any longer term expericence of running regular
> automotive unleaded fuel in the CJ-6a?
>
> Any problems with rubber hoses or seals perishing?
>
No. I ran mogas almost exclusively in my Housai-equipped CJ6A for nearly 700
hours. I used 87 octane (regular) pump gas. I never had a single
fuel-related problem with the airplane. In fact, I never really had any
problems other than normal wear items and boneheaded things I did myself.
:-)
>
> I'm just wondering what the praticalities of using it are and if it would
> be wise (if attmepted) to mix it up say 3 fill of unleaded then one fill-up
> with 100LL OR 3/4 full with unleaded then top off with 100LL.
>
The Huosai engine is spec'd to run on unleaded avgas that was (I believe) 76
octane. As I recall, that was at one time a common grade of fuel used in
low-compression engines before the widespread availability of tetraethyl
lead to boost the antiknock index (octane rating). I suspect it was what the
Chinese commonly ran in their tractors a few years back.
The only problem with using mogas today is whether or not it has been
compounded with ethanol as an oxygenate. Here in CA it is no longer possible
to get mogas from the pump that has not been blended with ethanol. They used
to use MTBE as an oxygenate, which posed no problems for the fuel system
components, but now MTBE is no longer allowed to be sold in CA. I would not
use fuel with alcohol in it in my aircraft.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: air distributor start valve adjustment |
This special air dist timing tool is rare but I do have 4 of them in my
stock, but unfortunately I have never had the occasion to use one so have no
idea as to advise on it's use or usefulness.
Doug
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:02 AM, Joe Howse <joeh@shaw.ca> wrote:
> **
> first; How is the valve out of adjustment? unless removed from the engine I
> cannot see how tht can happen.
> However, once removed, replacing it is a nightmare without the fixing tool to
> hold the slide part in position.
> The Chinese tool works fine on the Huosai engine and will work on the M14
> with a small added tab
>
> Joe
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 8
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All,
I am looking for a replacement 0360 lyc engine for my cub. I have found one
in east troy Wisconsin 53120. Anyone on the list know of a AP or AI in that
area that I could hire to take a look at it for me? Please respond off
list.
Doug Sapp
509-826-4610
Message 9
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week=2C any ideas? How about
an oil shut off valve? NELS
Date: Mon=2C 17 Oct 2011 08:41:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
From: brian@lloyd.com
On Sun=2C Oct 16=2C 2011 at 11:37 PM=2C Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon@earthl
ink.net> wrote:
I don't think that one needs to worry about the fudge
factor. The engines will run better with 2-3 degrees more timing than the
book calls for. Remember the Chinese certified the engines for 70 octane
fuel=2C so with 100 octane you have a huge detonation margin.
OTOH=2C if you get too much advance=2C even if you don't get detonation=2C
you can go past the point of maximum torque=2C which is what you are shooti
ng for. Since the mags on the Huosai engine have centrifugal (RPM-base) adv
ance=2C I would stick with the timing settings from the factory unless you
have the engine in a test cell and can measure the hook curve (change in to
rque with variation in timing) for your particular engine. Remember also th
at optimal timing (max torque) occurs at different amounts of advance at di
fferent engine loads (MAP) as well as RPM. Ever wonder why cars had vacuum
advance in addition to centrifugal advance? That's why. That's another reas
on to want a smarter ignition system.
This begs the question=2C if you have mags with RPM-based advance available
=2C why would anyone run fixed-timed mags? And if you have electronic ignit
ion available that allows for variable timing with both RPM and load=2C why
would anyone run mags at all?
--
Brian Lloyd=2C WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park=2C CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Kingman Red Star Event |
Gents,
Just a quick note about the RPA "Red Stars Over Kingman" event this past weekend
hosted by M-14P, Inc. All who attended had a fabulous time. A couple of us with
engine issues got to see first hand the depth of knowledge that Jill and Carl
bring to all of this. If you're located in the Southwest, think seriously
about attending this one next year. Can't imagine a better venue.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: yak-list: ignition timing |
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague <nelsprague@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas? How about
> an oil shut off valve? NELS
>
There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing
back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve
but maybe it would be a good thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Kingman Red Star Event |
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Warren Hill <k7wx@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Gents,
>
> Just a quick note about the RPA "Red Stars Over Kingman" event this past
> weekend hosted by M-14P, Inc. All who attended had a fabulous time. A couple
> of us with engine issues got to see first hand the depth of knowledge that
> Jill and Carl bring to all of this. If you're located in the Southwest,
> think seriously about attending this one next year. Can't imagine a better
> venue.
>
I didn't even know it was on. Was it announced here?
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: need some help |
I do not have any personal experience but I know of only positive
comments about Aviator Services on the field. 262-642-5008 or
262-215-2949
I also know that that Atlantic aviation at Waukesha has a good
reputation too. 262-549-6150
Dr. Herb Coussons, MD
drc@wscare.com
2641 Development Drive
Green Bay, WI 54311
Cell 920-639-8434
Work 920-338-6868
Fax 920-338-6869
On Oct 17, 2011, at 11:14 AM, doug sapp wrote:
> All,
> I am looking for a replacement 0360 lyc engine for my cub. I have
found one in east troy Wisconsin 53120. Anyone on the list know of a AP
or AI in that area that I could hire to take a look at it for me?
Please respond off list.
>
> Doug Sapp
> 509-826-4610
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: need some help |
Thanks Herb, I'll give them a call.
Best,
Doug
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:38 PM, Herb Coussons <drc@wscare.com> wrote:
> I do not have any personal experience but I know of only positive comments
> about Aviator Services on the field. 262-642-5008 or 262-215-2949
>
> I also know that that Atlantic aviation at Waukesha has a good reputation
> too. 262-549-6150
>
> Dr. Herb Coussons, MD
> drc@wscare.com
> 2641 Development Drive
> Green Bay, WI 54311
> Cell 920-639-8434
> Work 920-338-6868
> Fax 920-338-6869
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2011, at 11:14 AM, doug sapp wrote:
>
> All,
> I am looking for a replacement 0360 lyc engine for my cub. I have found
> one in east troy Wisconsin 53120. Anyone on the list know of a AP or AI
> in that area that I could hire to take a look at it for me? Please respond
> off list.
>
> Doug Sapp
> 509-826-4610
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re:Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
Craig;
That is my theory as well based on the fact that in timing a geared engine,
unlike a direct drive type, it is not possible to continue rotation in the
normal direction between each angle check.
The best one can do is GO BACKWARD about 50 deg and then take up slack. I
doubt that is adequate.
Also agree with Brian. Use the engine manual setting.
Thanks to all.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cpayne" <cpayne@joimail.com>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 3:19 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re:Ignition timing with the auto advance mags.
>
> Walt,
>
> I believe the allowance is based on gear lash if setting by the prop and
> then there is measurement error factor. The Polish manual has helped me to
> "interpret" the descriptions in the Chinese manuals. I use one of those
> calibrated crank angle spark-plug hole dial indicators that were sold
> about 8 years or so ago.
>
> In the magneto timing paper I wrote for the RPA Store, there is a table of
> correction values I calculated for each different advance angle.
>
> Craig Payne
>
>
>
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