Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:53 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
2. 09:04 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (George Coy)
3. 09:16 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 10:07 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (George Coy)
5. 10:15 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
6. 10:23 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Roger Kemp M.D.)
7. 10:31 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (George Coy)
8. 11:44 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 01:53 PM - Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (Bill vH)
10. 02:05 PM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Brian Lloyd)
11. 02:10 PM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Brian Lloyd)
12. 04:39 PM - yak-list Re: 70 Octane (Frank Stelwagon)
13. 05:58 PM - Alternator Needed (Elmar Hegenauer)
14. 07:58 PM - Re: Alternator Needed (Cory Robin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree
with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
you install the safety switch.
If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job
correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start
to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the
case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know
that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through.
In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve
and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the
exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar.
Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can
work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather
does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the
prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the
intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather
start.
Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that
is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy
to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking
time bomb on your hands.
Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the
prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also
bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders.
So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling
out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will
help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil
pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well.
I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil
shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the
sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the
oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some
cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine.
Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a
need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a
month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake
drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to
pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is
also a pain in the tail.
The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the
fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable
fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good
luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve.
The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before
engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down
before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To
address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that
disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left
closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or
she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve
closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required.
The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you
have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have
seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it
home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9.
So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down
to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about
keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it
gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed
one viable option.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague <nelsprague@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas?
How about an oil shut off valve? NELS
There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from
flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil
shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 2
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The
replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be
replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an
oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are
also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed.
George Coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree
with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
you install the safety switch.
If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job
correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start
to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the
case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know
that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through.
In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve
and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the
exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar.
Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can
work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather
does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the
prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the
intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather
start.
Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that
is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy
to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking
time bomb on your hands.
Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the
prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also
bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders.
So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling
out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will
help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil
pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well.
I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil
shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the
sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the
oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some
cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine.
Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a
need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a
month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake
drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to
pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is
also a pain in the tail.
The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the
fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable
fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good
luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve.
The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before
engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down
before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To
address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that
disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left
closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or
she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve
closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required.
The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you
have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have
seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it
home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9.
So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down
to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about
keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it
gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed
one viable option.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague <nelsprague@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas?
How about an oil shut off valve? NELS
There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from
flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil
shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 3
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
There ya go. Of course the Housai is out of Schlitz, but ....
George, do you possibly have something set up where a person could pull
the oil/fuel pump off their engine and have a refurbished set sent back
with this new check valve installed?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The
replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to
be
replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an
oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They
are
also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed.
George Coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree
with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
you install the safety switch.
If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job
correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start
to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the
case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know
that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through.
In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve
and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the
exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar.
Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can
work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather
does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the
prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the
intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather
start.
Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that
is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy
to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking
time bomb on your hands.
Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the
prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also
bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders.
So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling
out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will
help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil
pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well.
I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil
shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the
sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the
oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some
cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine.
Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a
need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a
month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake
drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to
pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is
also a pain in the tail.
The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the
fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable
fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good
luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve.
The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before
engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down
before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To
address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that
disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left
closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or
she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve
closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required.
The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you
have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have
seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it
home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9.
So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down
to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about
keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it
gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed
one viable option.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague <nelsprague@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas?
How about an oil shut off valve? NELS
There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from
flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil
shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 4
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
Yes I have a rebuilt one in stock for exchange.
George Coy
CAS Ltd.
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
802-868-4465 Fax
george.coy@gmail.com
http://coyafct.com/
SKYPE george.coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
There ya go. Of course the Housai is out of Schlitz, but ....
George, do you possibly have something set up where a person could pull
the oil/fuel pump off their engine and have a refurbished set sent back
with this new check valve installed?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The
replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to
be
replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an
oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They
are
also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed.
George Coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree
with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
you install the safety switch.
If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job
correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start
to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the
case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know
that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through.
In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve
and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the
exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar.
Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can
work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather
does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the
prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the
intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather
start.
Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that
is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy
to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking
time bomb on your hands.
Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the
prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also
bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders.
So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling
out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will
help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil
pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well.
I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil
shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the
sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the
oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some
cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine.
Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a
need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a
month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake
drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to
pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is
also a pain in the tail.
The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the
fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable
fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good
luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve.
The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before
engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down
before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To
address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that
disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left
closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or
she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve
closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required.
The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you
have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have
seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it
home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9.
So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down
to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about
keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it
gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed
one viable option.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague <nelsprague@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas?
How about an oil shut off valve? NELS
There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from
flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil
shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 5
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
As soon as budget allows, I sure will be buying one!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
Yes I have a rebuilt one in stock for exchange.
George Coy
CAS Ltd.
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
802-868-4465 Fax
george.coy@gmail.com
http://coyafct.com/
SKYPE george.coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
There ya go. Of course the Housai is out of Schlitz, but ....
George, do you possibly have something set up where a person could pull
the oil/fuel pump off their engine and have a refurbished set sent back
with this new check valve installed?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The
replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to
be
replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an
oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They
are
also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed.
George Coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree
with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
you install the safety switch.
If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job
correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start
to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the
case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know
that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through.
In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve
and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the
exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar.
Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can
work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather
does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the
prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the
intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather
start.
Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that
is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy
to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking
time bomb on your hands.
Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the
prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also
bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders.
So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling
out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will
help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil
pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well.
I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil
shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the
sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the
oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some
cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine.
Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a
need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a
month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake
drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to
pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is
also a pain in the tail.
The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the
fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable
fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good
luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve.
The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before
engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down
before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To
address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that
disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left
closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or
she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve
closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required.
The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you
have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have
seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it
home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9.
So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down
to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about
keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it
gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed
one viable option.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague <nelsprague@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas?
How about an oil shut off valve? NELS
There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from
flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil
shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 6
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
Interesting. Is the valve easier to access than the current one for
polishing and cleaning? Although, I must admit solvent flushed through the
oil pump with the accessory case sitting in the parts / solvent wash tank is
quiet effective at removing most of the build-up on the inner valve. But not
everyone wants to completely tear their engines down to perform this
activity.
Otherwise it entails dropping the fuel pump then taking the oil pump off to
disassemble it completely to get to the valve that needs to
serviced/polished. Don't forget the need for new gaskets too.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The
replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be
replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an
oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are
also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed.
George Coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
--> Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with
having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
you install the safety switch.
If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly
there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent
hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc.,
etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the
case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through.
In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and
then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust
stacks on the floor of the hangar.
Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work
its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not
like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through.
This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and
again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start.
Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is
immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to
find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb
on your hands.
Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the
prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also
bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders.
So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out
this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with
the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw
that up once and you are in a real mess as well.
I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil
shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the
sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is
still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all
three are installed on the M-14 engine.
Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to
address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or
less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an
aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some
sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in
the tail.
The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact
that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion.
So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with
that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve.
The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine
start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down
before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To
address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that
disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left
closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she
can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed,
which pretty much means a new engine will be required.
The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you
have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen
happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home
safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9.
So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to
individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil
out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there.
Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague <nelsprague@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas?
How about an oil shut off valve? NELS
There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing
back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve
but maybe it would be a good thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 7
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
Long answer NO. Same location.
George Coy
CAS Ltd.
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
802-868-4465 Fax
george.coy@gmail.com
http://coyafct.com/
SKYPE george.coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D.
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
Interesting. Is the valve easier to access than the current one for
polishing and cleaning? Although, I must admit solvent flushed through the
oil pump with the accessory case sitting in the parts / solvent wash tank is
quiet effective at removing most of the build-up on the inner valve. But not
everyone wants to completely tear their engines down to perform this
activity.
Otherwise it entails dropping the fuel pump then taking the oil pump off to
disassemble it completely to get to the valve that needs to
serviced/polished. Don't forget the need for new gaskets too.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The
replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be
replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an
oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are
also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed.
George Coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
--> Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with
having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
you install the safety switch.
If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly
there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent
hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc.,
etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the
case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through.
In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and
then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust
stacks on the floor of the hangar.
Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work
its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not
like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through.
This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and
again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start.
Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is
immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to
find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb
on your hands.
Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the
prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also
bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders.
So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out
this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with
the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw
that up once and you are in a real mess as well.
I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil
shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the
sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is
still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all
three are installed on the M-14 engine.
Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to
address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or
less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an
aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some
sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in
the tail.
The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact
that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion.
So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with
that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve.
The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine
start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down
before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To
address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that
disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left
closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she
can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed,
which pretty much means a new engine will be required.
The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you
have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen
happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home
safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9.
So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to
individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil
out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there.
Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague <nelsprague@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas?
How about an oil shut off valve? NELS
There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing
back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve
but maybe it would be a good thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 8
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
Or, you can simply go with an external valve ...... Hence the point?
:-)
That said: I like the idea of a better valve, and I'll get one.
Especially when I consider I am getting an overhauled assembly in
exchange. A good thing.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
M.D.
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
<viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Interesting. Is the valve easier to access than the current one for
polishing and cleaning? Although, I must admit solvent flushed through
the
oil pump with the accessory case sitting in the parts / solvent wash
tank is
quiet effective at removing most of the build-up on the inner valve. But
not
everyone wants to completely tear their engines down to perform this
activity.
Otherwise it entails dropping the fuel pump then taking the oil pump off
to
disassemble it completely to get to the valve that needs to
serviced/polished. Don't forget the need for new gaskets too.
Doc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The
replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to
be
replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an
oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They
are
also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed.
George Coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
--> Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree
with
having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
you install the safety switch.
If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job
correctly
there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent
hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc.,
etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the
case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through.
In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve
and
then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust
stacks on the floor of the hangar.
Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can
work
its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does
not
like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop
through.
This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and
again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start.
Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that
is
immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to
find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time
bomb
on your hands.
Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the
prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also
bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders.
So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling
out
this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help
with
the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump.
Screw
that up once and you are in a real mess as well.
I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil
shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the
sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the
oil is
still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases
all
three are installed on the M-14 engine.
Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a
need to
address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or
less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains,
an
aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some
sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain
in
the tail.
The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the
fact
that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable
fashion.
So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with
that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve.
The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before
engine
start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down
before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To
address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that
disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left
closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or
she
can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed,
which pretty much means a new engine will be required.
The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you
have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have
seen
happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home
safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9.
So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down
to
individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping
oil
out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in
there.
Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable
option.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague <nelsprague@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas?
How about an oil shut off valve? NELS
There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from
flowing
back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off
valve
but maybe it would be a good thing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
George,
I hope you are referring to prop flange/crankshaft- magneto gear ratio not actual
crankshaft-magneto gear ratio...
[quote="GeorgeCoy"]Walter, Perhaps you are not taking into account the gear ratio
between the magneto and the crankshaft. On the M14P it is 1.125 to 1.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 8:17 PM
Subject: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags.
A question for everyone:
All of the engine manuals I have seen to date give a mag setting angle relative
to the propellor and corresponding to the individual magneto advance angle.
That makes good sense since the prop shaft is the only accessible reference.
quote]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355462#355462
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: yak-list: ignition timing |
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:50 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree
> with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
> you install the safety switch.
>
Actually, that was supposed to be a private message. I didn't realize that
Nels had posted to the Yak list. I thought it was a private EM to me and I
just hit reply.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: yak-list: ignition timing |
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:50 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
> MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree
>> with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that
>> you install the safety switch.
>>
>
> Actually, that was supposed to be a private message. I didn't realize that
> Nels had posted to the Yak list. I thought it was a private EM to me and I
> just hit reply.
>
My general feeling is that almost any modification needs a lot more thought
than most people give it. George Coy's and Motorstar's approach of fixing
the valve that is already in there appeals to me much more than retrofitting
an additional valve. But that is just me.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: yak-list Re: 70 Octane |
The first place that I found a reference was in a YAK Pilots Club
presentation Vol 4,No.4 a sheet labeled CJ-6A Aircraft and spare parts.
Under Power Plant Data : Octane rating of fuel- not less than 70 octane.
I don't think that in those days any body worried about RON or MON. At
70 octane it was undoubtedly unleaded.
The second place is in the Type 6 Primary Trainer Maintenance Manual
Vol. 1 Aircraft and Engine under Fueling, Replenishing oil and charging
of compressed air. Fuel type 70.
Frank CJ6-A
Message 13
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| Subject: | Alternator Needed |
I am looking for an used alternator
including the voltage regulator for
the Huosai 6A engine.
Thank you in advance.
cheers
Elmar
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Needed |
I have an M14P Generator... I know you didn't say generator.. :)
Cory Robin
US Ph. +1-801-649-2925 ext. 301
UK Ph. +44 020 7101 9481 ext. 301
US Fax. +1-419-828-6643
Skype: skyvantage (calls only) ext. 301
Email: crobin@skyvantage.com
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 18:55, Elmar Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> I am looking for an used alternator
> including the voltage regulator for
> the Huosai 6A engine.
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
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