---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/18/11: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:53 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 2. 09:04 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (George Coy) 3. 09:16 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 4. 10:07 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (George Coy) 5. 10:15 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 6. 10:23 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Roger Kemp M.D.) 7. 10:31 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (George Coy) 8. 11:44 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 9. 01:53 PM - Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (Bill vH) 10. 02:05 PM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Brian Lloyd) 11. 02:10 PM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Brian Lloyd) 12. 04:39 PM - yak-list Re: 70 Octane (Frank Stelwagon) 13. 05:58 PM - Alternator Needed (Elmar Hegenauer) 14. 07:58 PM - Re: Alternator Needed (Cory Robin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that you install the safety switch. If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through. In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar. Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start. Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders. So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well. I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine. Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in the tail. The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve. The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required. The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9. So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague wrote: Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas? How about an oil shut off valve? NELS There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:21 AM PST US From: "George Coy" Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed. George Coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing MALS-14 64E" Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that you install the safety switch. If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through. In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar. Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start. Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders. So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well. I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine. Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in the tail. The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve. The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required. The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9. So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague wrote: Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas? How about an oil shut off valve? NELS There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" There ya go. Of course the Housai is out of Schlitz, but .... George, do you possibly have something set up where a person could pull the oil/fuel pump off their engine and have a refurbished set sent back with this new check valve installed? Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:02 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed. George Coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Point, MALS-14 64E" Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that you install the safety switch. If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through. In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar. Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start. Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders. So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well. I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine. Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in the tail. The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve. The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required. The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9. So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague wrote: Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas? How about an oil shut off valve? NELS There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:42 AM PST US From: "George Coy" Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Yes I have a rebuilt one in stock for exchange. George Coy CAS Ltd. 714 Airport Rd. Swanton VT 05488 802-868-5633 off 802-363-5782 cell 802-868-4465 Fax george.coy@gmail.com http://coyafct.com/ SKYPE george.coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:13 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing MALS-14 64E" There ya go. Of course the Housai is out of Schlitz, but .... George, do you possibly have something set up where a person could pull the oil/fuel pump off their engine and have a refurbished set sent back with this new check valve installed? Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:02 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed. George Coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Point, MALS-14 64E" Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that you install the safety switch. If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through. In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar. Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start. Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders. So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well. I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine. Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in the tail. The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve. The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required. The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9. So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague wrote: Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas? How about an oil shut off valve? NELS There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:37 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" As soon as budget allows, I sure will be buying one! Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:04 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Yes I have a rebuilt one in stock for exchange. George Coy CAS Ltd. 714 Airport Rd. Swanton VT 05488 802-868-5633 off 802-363-5782 cell 802-868-4465 Fax george.coy@gmail.com http://coyafct.com/ SKYPE george.coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:13 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Point, MALS-14 64E" There ya go. Of course the Housai is out of Schlitz, but .... George, do you possibly have something set up where a person could pull the oil/fuel pump off their engine and have a refurbished set sent back with this new check valve installed? Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:02 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed. George Coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Point, MALS-14 64E" Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that you install the safety switch. If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through. In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar. Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start. Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders. So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well. I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine. Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in the tail. The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve. The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required. The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9. So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague wrote: Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas? How about an oil shut off valve? NELS There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:50 AM PST US From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Interesting. Is the valve easier to access than the current one for polishing and cleaning? Although, I must admit solvent flushed through the oil pump with the accessory case sitting in the parts / solvent wash tank is quiet effective at removing most of the build-up on the inner valve. But not everyone wants to completely tear their engines down to perform this activity. Otherwise it entails dropping the fuel pump then taking the oil pump off to disassemble it completely to get to the valve that needs to serviced/polished. Don't forget the need for new gaskets too. Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:02 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed. George Coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing --> Point, MALS-14 64E" Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that you install the safety switch. If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through. In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar. Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start. Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders. So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well. I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine. Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in the tail. The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve. The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required. The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9. So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague wrote: Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas? How about an oil shut off valve? NELS There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:12 AM PST US From: "George Coy" Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Long answer NO. Same location. George Coy CAS Ltd. 714 Airport Rd. Swanton VT 05488 802-868-5633 off 802-363-5782 cell 802-868-4465 Fax george.coy@gmail.com http://coyafct.com/ SKYPE george.coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D. Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Interesting. Is the valve easier to access than the current one for polishing and cleaning? Although, I must admit solvent flushed through the oil pump with the accessory case sitting in the parts / solvent wash tank is quiet effective at removing most of the build-up on the inner valve. But not everyone wants to completely tear their engines down to perform this activity. Otherwise it entails dropping the fuel pump then taking the oil pump off to disassemble it completely to get to the valve that needs to serviced/polished. Don't forget the need for new gaskets too. Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:02 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed. George Coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing --> Point, MALS-14 64E" Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that you install the safety switch. If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through. In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar. Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start. Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders. So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well. I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine. Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in the tail. The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve. The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required. The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9. So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague wrote: Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas? How about an oil shut off valve? NELS There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:04 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" Or, you can simply go with an external valve ...... Hence the point? :-) That said: I like the idea of a better valve, and I'll get one. Especially when I consider I am getting an overhauled assembly in exchange. A good thing. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D. Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing Interesting. Is the valve easier to access than the current one for polishing and cleaning? Although, I must admit solvent flushed through the oil pump with the accessory case sitting in the parts / solvent wash tank is quiet effective at removing most of the build-up on the inner valve. But not everyone wants to completely tear their engines down to perform this activity. Otherwise it entails dropping the fuel pump then taking the oil pump off to disassemble it completely to get to the valve that needs to serviced/polished. Don't forget the need for new gaskets too. Doc -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:02 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing The Motorstar factory has developed a new replacement check valve. The replacement is done a the factory, as the original was not designed to be replaced. It requires removing the old valve by machining, making an oversize hole and installing the replaceable type of check valve. They are also making new oil pumps with a replaceable valve installed. George Coy -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:50 AM Subject: RE: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing --> Point, MALS-14 64E" Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that you install the safety switch. If the check valve that you mentioned in your message did its job correctly there would be no need to pull the prop through before start to prevent hydraulic lock (not counting the oil that is already in the case, etc., etc., and yes I know that can be argued, but ...) we know that's not the case.... we ALWAYS pull the prop through. In addition, we also get a lot of oil that leaks past this check valve and then out the exhaust valves and into buckets we keep under the exhaust stacks on the floor of the hangar. Worse yet are tail-draggers with M-14 engines. In this case, oil can work its way back into intake tubes, where it sits and in cold weather does not like to come back into the cylinder and out when you pull the prop through. This has the possibility of being "gulped" into the intake on start and again causing a hydraulic lock on a cold weather start. Worst STILL is the fact that not all hydraulic locks cause damage that is immediately evident. Piston Rods can bend a little and are not easy to find, even if you suspect it has happened. Now you have a ticking time bomb on your hands. Continuing... even with the leverage of the human arm on the end of the prop, you have enough force pulling the engine through that you can also bend a rod simply by trying to get oil OUT of the cylinders. So the check valve leaks, and yes... there are procedures for pulling out this check valve, polishing it, and putting it back in. This will help with the leakage. Now you are taking parts in and out of the oil pump. Screw that up once and you are in a real mess as well. I have seen three modifications addressing this issue. External Oil shut-off valves. A Sump Pump that allows you to pump the oil out of the sump and back into the main oil tank after engine shut-down while the oil is still hot. Intake port drains for the lower cylinders. In some cases all three are installed on the M-14 engine. Folks that fly their aircraft every weekend will not normally have a need to address an issue like this. Folks that fly their M-14's once a month or less, WILL have this issue all the time. Even with the intake drains, an aircraft that has sat for a long time will usually have to pull some sparkplugs out to drain the oil in the cylinders, which is also a pain in the tail. The oil shut off valve addresses one of the big issues, and that is the fact that the check valve in question doesn't do its job in a reliable fashion. So you can stick with it, and try to fix that ... and good luck with that..... or you can go with an external shut off valve. The obvious danger is that you fail to turn the valve back on before engine start. It is a checklist item, like making sure the gear is down before you land. People forget doing that too once in awhile. :-) To address that, a lot of the shut-off valves sold have a microswitch that disconnects the starter wire (to the air solenoid) if the valve is left closed. However, if a person is really determined to be stupid, he or she can one way or the other, get the engine started with this valve closed, which pretty much means a new engine will be required. The opposite side of the coin is a bent rod, that you might not know you have even caused, that ends up breaking in flight. Something I have seen happen TWICE now in my local area with this engine. Both made it home safely by the way, running on 8 out of 9. So it becomes a risk comparison evaluation, which in the end comes down to individual choice. The scientific discussion is how to go about keeping oil out of the lower cylinders, or what to do about it AFTER it gets in there. Never-the-less, an external oil shut-off valve is indeed one viable option. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Nel Sprague wrote: Brian - We are getting the Yak annualed this week, any ideas? How about an oil shut off valve? NELS There is an automatic check valve that is supposed to keep oil from flowing back into the sump. I don't really like the idea of an oil shut-off valve but maybe it would be a good thing. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:41 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. From: "Bill vH" George, I hope you are referring to prop flange/crankshaft- magneto gear ratio not actual crankshaft-magneto gear ratio... [quote="GeorgeCoy"]Walter, Perhaps you are not taking into account the gear ratio between the magneto and the crankshaft. On the M14P it is 1.125 to 1. From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 8:17 PM Subject: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. A question for everyone: All of the engine manuals I have seen to date give a mag setting angle relative to the propellor and corresponding to the individual magneto advance angle. That makes good sense since the prop shaft is the only accessible reference. quote] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355462#355462 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing From: Brian Lloyd On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:50 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote: > MALS-14 64E" > > Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree > with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that > you install the safety switch. > Actually, that was supposed to be a private message. I didn't realize that Nels had posted to the Yak list. I thought it was a private EM to me and I just hit reply. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: yak-list: ignition timing From: Brian Lloyd On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:50 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, > MALS-14 64E wrote: > >> MALS-14 64E" >> >> Brian, sorry but I have to slightly disagree and say that I fully agree >> with having one... if as a pilot you always follow a checklist, and that >> you install the safety switch. >> > > Actually, that was supposed to be a private message. I didn't realize that > Nels had posted to the Yak list. I thought it was a private EM to me and I > just hit reply. > My general feeling is that almost any modification needs a lot more thought than most people give it. George Coy's and Motorstar's approach of fixing the valve that is already in there appeals to me much more than retrofitting an additional valve. But that is just me. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:36 PM PST US From: "Frank Stelwagon" Subject: Yak-List: yak-list Re: 70 Octane The first place that I found a reference was in a YAK Pilots Club presentation Vol 4,No.4 a sheet labeled CJ-6A Aircraft and spare parts. Under Power Plant Data : Octane rating of fuel- not less than 70 octane. I don't think that in those days any body worried about RON or MON. At 70 octane it was undoubtedly unleaded. The second place is in the Type 6 Primary Trainer Maintenance Manual Vol. 1 Aircraft and Engine under Fueling, Replenishing oil and charging of compressed air. Fuel type 70. Frank CJ6-A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:30 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Alternator Needed From: Elmar Hegenauer I am looking for an used alternator including the voltage regulator for the Huosai 6A engine. Thank you in advance. cheers Elmar ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:17 PM PST US From: Cory Robin Subject: Re: Yak-List: Alternator Needed I have an M14P Generator... I know you didn't say generator.. :) Cory Robin US Ph. +1-801-649-2925 ext. 301 UK Ph. +44 020 7101 9481 ext. 301 US Fax. +1-419-828-6643 Skype: skyvantage (calls only) ext. 301 Email: crobin@skyvantage.com On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 18:55, Elmar Hegenauer wrote: > > I am looking for an used alternator > including the voltage regulator for > the Huosai 6A engine. > > Thank you in advance. > > cheers > > Elmar > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.