Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (Cliff Coy)
2. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (William Halverson)
3. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (Cliff Coy)
4. 08:36 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
5. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (Brian Lloyd)
6. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (Mark Davis)
7. 09:02 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Brian Lloyd)
8. 09:26 AM - Re: yak-list: ignition timing (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (William Halverson)
10. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. (A. Dennis Savarese)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
*Here is the M9-35m timing chart to determine the correct timing at the
crankshaft flange.
The stamp is located on the parting face of the magneto body under the cap.
M14-P TIMING WITH M9-35M MAGNETOS
STAMP TIME TO
23 2 BTDC
24 2 BTDC
25 1 BTDC
26 1 BTDC
27 0
28 (1) ATDC
29 (1) ATDC
30 (2) ATDC
31 (2) ATDC
32 (3) ATDC
33 (4) ATDC
34 (4) ATDC
35 (5) ATDC
36 (5) ATDC
37 (6) ATDC
Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with ax.
Cheers,
Cliff
*
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
Axe?
;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff Coy [mailto:cliff.coy@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 06:23 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags.
*Here is the M9-35m timing chart to determine the correct timing at the
crankshaft flange.
The stamp is located on the parting face of the magneto body under the cap.
M14-P TIMING WITH M9-35M MAGNETOS
STAMP TIME TO
23 2 BTDC
24 2 BTDC
25 1 BTDC
26 1 BTDC
27 0
28 (1) ATDC
29 (1) ATDC
30 (2) ATDC
31 (2) ATDC
32 (3) ATDC
33 (4) ATDC
34 (4) ATDC
35 (5) ATDC
36 (5) ATDC
37 (6) ATDC
Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with ax.
Cheers,
Cliff
*
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
*It's certainly open for debate...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ax
;-)
*
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:17, William Halverson <william@netpros.net>wrote:
>
>
> Axe?
>
> ;-)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cliff Coy [mailto:cliff.coy@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 06:23 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags.
>
> *Here is the M9-35m timing chart to determine the correct timing at the
> crankshaft flange.
> The stamp is located on the parting face of the magneto body under the cap.
>
> M14-P TIMING WITH M9-35M MAGNETOS
> STAMP TIME TO
> 23 2 BTDC
> 24 2 BTDC
> 25 1 BTDC
> 26 1 BTDC
> 27 0
> 28 (1) ATDC
> 29 (1) ATDC
> 30 (2) ATDC
> 31 (2) ATDC
> 32 (3) ATDC
> 33 (4) ATDC
> 34 (4) ATDC
> 35 (5) ATDC
> 36 (5) ATDC
> 37 (6) ATDC
>
> Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with ax.
>
> Cheers,
> Cliff
> *
>
>
> --
> Clifford Coy
> Border Air Ltd.
> 629 Airport Rd.
> Swanton, VT 05488
> 802-868-2822 TEL
> 802-868-4465 FAX
> Skype: Cliff.Coy
>
>
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
Message 4
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>Actually, that was supposed to be a private message. I didn't realize
that Nels had posted to the Yak list. I thought it was a private EM to
me and I just hit reply."
Roger that.
>My general feeling is that almost any modification needs a lot more
thought than most people give it. George Coy's and Motorstar's approach
of fixing the valve that is already in there appeals to me much more
than retrofitting an additional valve. But that is just me.
Replacing the valve in the oil pump with a better one appeals to me as
well. Even though it means MODIFYING THE OIL PUMP! However one of the
things that I use to weigh the value of a modification is: Has it been
done before for the same reasons anywhere else?
The answer to that is that many aircraft that employed radial engines
used an external oil shutoff valve to prevent the very problem discussed
here., so this is not exactly a "new idea". Some of these valves were
electro-mechanical, some purely mechanical, and some without any kind of
safety interface at all. One that comes immediately to mind is the
Douglas A-26 Invader. Recently, an A-26 south of here had a breaker
blow that prevented that valve from opening before flight. Both engines
were ruined.
So the potential to destroy an engine with an external oil shut-off
valve is certainly there.
That said, I again reiterate that bending rods is very easy to do with
the M-14 engine. I've personally seen it happen to two of them. I have
yet to see anyone fail to open an externally controlled oil valve, but I
am sure it will probably happen someday. I also will note that in my
PERSONAL opinion, I get a rather bad feeling whenever someone (anyone)
starts messing around with my fuel and oil pump. This kind of
maintenance action is exactly the kind of thing that brought that
YAK-50's engine to a complete stop in flight over England some months
back. I trust George. There are very few others though that I would.
It's a toss-up, but my choice would be an external valve that I can see
with my own two eyes, that I know works exactly as it should because I
helped put it in there and checked it out. But... that's just me (as
well). :-)
Mark
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
Axe not what you can do for your country...
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:02 AM, Cliff Coy <cliff.coy@gmail.com> wrote:
> *It's certainly open for debate...
>
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ax
>
>
> ;-)
> *
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:17, William Halverson <william@netpros.net>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Axe?
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
Cutting side of the axe for minor adjustments, blunt side of the axe for
larger alignment issues? : )
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: Cliff Coy
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags.
It's certainly open for debate...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ax
;-)
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:17, William Halverson <william@netpros.net>
wrote:
<william@netpros.net>
Axe?
;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff Coy [mailto:cliff.coy@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 06:23 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance
mags.
*Here is the M9-35m timing chart to determine the correct timing at
the
crankshaft flange.
The stamp is located on the parting face of the magneto body under
the cap.
M14-P TIMING WITH M9-35M MAGNETOS
STAMP TIME TO
23 2 BTDC
24 2 BTDC
25 1 BTDC
26 1 BTDC
27 0
28 (1) ATDC
29 (1) ATDC
30 (2) ATDC
31 (2) ATDC
32 (3) ATDC
33 (4) ATDC
34 (4) ATDC
35 (5) ATDC
36 (5) ATDC
37 (6) ATDC
Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with ax.
Cheers,
Cliff
*
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: yak-list: ignition timing |
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Actually, that was supposed to be a private message. I didn't realize
> that Nels had posted to the Yak list. I thought it was a private EM to
> me and I just hit reply."
>
> Roger that.
>
> >My general feeling is that almost any modification needs a lot more
> thought than most people give it. George Coy's and Motorstar's approach
> of fixing the valve that is already in there appeals to me much more
> than retrofitting an additional valve. But that is just me.
>
> Replacing the valve in the oil pump with a better one appeals to me as
> well. Even though it means MODIFYING THE OIL PUMP! However one of the
> things that I use to weigh the value of a modification is: Has it been
> done before for the same reasons anywhere else?
>
We have had this debate (argument?) before. The engine has a valve
specifically intended to keep oil from pooling in the engine when the engine
is not running. My personal feeling is that it makes more sense to ensure
that the designed-in valve does its job rather than duplicating the function
using an external valve.
Analogy: if you have an on-off switch in a device that has a tendency to
fail you replace it with a switch that works properly and doesn't fail. You
don't add another switch in the power cord.
But as I said, that is just me. I am interested in hearing about the
improvements to the internal check valve in the oil pump. I am not
interested in debating the efficacy of one type of oil shut-off vs.
another. YMMV.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 8
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| Subject: | yak-list: ignition timing |
>We have had this debate (argument?) before. The engine has a valve
specifically intended to keep oil from pooling in the engine when the
engine is not running. My personal feeling is that it makes more sense
to ensure that the designed-in valve does its job rather than
duplicating the function using an external valve.
Ok, then REMOVE the internal valve and replace it with an EXTERNAL
valve. My personal feeling is that the whole original design is wrong
to begin with. An engineer should not design an internal valve that
requires removing the fuel pump and the oil pump from the engine in
order to service or repair the darn thing, when it serves a function
that can impact the safety and health of the engine to begin with. Yes,
we have debated/discussed it before, but come on now Brian, that has
never stopped either of us has it? Yes, a lot of folks like to take
individual parts used in a design and improve on them. Sometimes
though, it is better to step even FURTHER back and discuss whether the
design was even sound to begin with. I don't like that check valve at
all, and I also don't like where it is located.
>Analogy: if you have an on-off switch in a device that has a tendency
to fail you replace it with a switch that works properly and doesn't
fail. You don't add another switch in the power cord.
No, but you sometimes chop out the one that is giving you trouble and
mount another one where it is much easier to get to if and when it
fails, don't you?
What George Coy said was this: " The Motorstar factory has developed a
new replacement check valve. The replacement is done a the factory, as
the original was not designed to be replaced. It requires removing the
old valve by machining, making an oversize hole and installing the
replaceable type of check valve. They are also making new oil pumps
with a replaceable valve installed."
I *THINK* what he meant by this (are you there George?) was that the new
type installation now allows you to CHANGE the valve when it fails.
Question: Can this be accomplished by accessing the valve with the
accessory drive section that includes the oil and fuel pump remaining on
the engine or not? If you can pop this valve out and replace it without
taking the whole mess apart, that would be super. If not, then it just
means you can change it when it goes bad instead of just trying to
polish up the ball.
>But as I said, that is just me. I am interested in hearing about the
improvements to the internal check valve in the oil pump. I am not
interested in debating the efficacy of one type of oil shut-off vs.
another.
The original message brooked the question of whether an external oil
shut-off valve was worthy of consideration. If you are not interested
in discussing or debating the efficacy of that question, simply don't
respond.
Mark
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
My imagination is running wild ...
Wild vikings wielding axes in aviation engine shops all over the world ...
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Davis [mailto:markdavis@wbsnet.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 08:58 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags.
Cutting side of the axe for minor adjustments, blunt side of the axe for larger
alignment issues? : )
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: Cliff Coy
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags.
It's certainly open for debate...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ax
;-)
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:17, William Halverson <william@netpros.net> wrote:
Axe?
;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff Coy [mailto:cliff.coy@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 06:23 AM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags.
*Here is the M9-35m timing chart to determine the correct timing at the
crankshaft flange.
The stamp is located on the parting face of the magneto body under the cap.
M14-P TIMING WITH M9-35M MAGNETOS
STAMP TIME TO
23 2 BTDC
24 2 BTDC
25 1 BTDC
26 1 BTDC
27 0
28 (1) ATDC
29 (1) ATDC
30 (2) ATDC
31 (2) ATDC
32 (3) ATDC
33 (4) ATDC
34 (4) ATDC
35 (5) ATDC
36 (5) ATDC
37 (6) ATDC
Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with ax.
Cheers,
Cliff
*
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
Clifford Coy
Border Air Ltd.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: Cliff.Coy
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance mags. |
That is classic Mark!!!! Made me smile from ear to ear. :-))))))
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 10/19/2011 10:58 AM, Mark Davis wrote:
> Cutting side of the axe for minor adjustments, blunt side of the axe
> for larger alignment issues? : )
> Mark Davis
> N44YK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cliff Coy <mailto:cliff.coy@gmail.com>
> *To:* yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:02 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto advance
> mags.
>
> *It's certainly open for debate...
>
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ax
>
>
> ;-)
> *
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:17, William Halverson
> <william@netpros.net <mailto:william@netpros.net>> wrote:
>
> <william@netpros.net <mailto:william@netpros.net>>
>
>
> Axe?
>
> ;-)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cliff Coy [mailto:cliff.coy@gmail.com
> <mailto:cliff.coy@gmail.com>]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 06:23 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Ignition timing with the auto
> advance mags.
>
> *Here is the M9-35m timing chart to determine the correct
> timing at the
> crankshaft flange.
> The stamp is located on the parting face of the magneto body
> under the cap.
>
> M14-P TIMING WITH M9-35M MAGNETOS
> STAMP TIME TO
> 23 2 BTDC
> 24 2 BTDC
> 25 1 BTDC
> 26 1 BTDC
> 27 0
> 28 (1) ATDC
> 29 (1) ATDC
> 30 (2) ATDC
> 31 (2) ATDC
> 32 (3) ATDC
> 33 (4) ATDC
> 34 (4) ATDC
> 35 (5) ATDC
> 36 (5) ATDC
> 37 (6) ATDC
>
> Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with ax.
>
> Cheers,
> Cliff
> *
>
>
> --
> Clifford Coy
> Border Air Ltd.
> 629 Airport Rd.
> Swanton, VT 05488
> 802-868-2822 <tel:802-868-2822> TEL
> 802-868-4465 <tel:802-868-4465> FAX
> Skype: Cliff.Coy
>
>
>
> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> --
> Clifford Coy
> Border Air Ltd.
> 629 Airport Rd.
> Swanton, VT 05488
> 802-868-2822 TEL
> 802-868-4465 FAX
> Skype: Cliff.Coy
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
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