Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:17 AM - Re: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop (Richard Goode)
2. 04:41 AM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Richard Hess)
3. 07:42 AM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (barryhancock)
4. 09:00 AM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer)
5. 09:33 AM - helmets (Brian Lloyd)
6. 09:33 AM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Paul Lewis)
7. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (doug sapp)
8. 10:16 AM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Richard Hess)
9. 10:16 AM - Re: helmets (Richard Hess)
10. 10:40 AM - Re: helmets (Fly4fude)
11. 10:54 AM - Re: helmets (Brian Lloyd)
12. 11:09 AM - Re: helmets (doug sapp)
13. 11:16 AM - Re: helmets (Byron Fox)
14. 12:20 PM - Re: helmets (cjpilot710@aol.com)
15. 12:42 PM - Re: helmets (Bill Geipel)
16. 12:54 PM - Re: helmets (J Rittenbach)
17. 12:55 PM - Helmets (RICHARD VOLKER)
18. 01:07 PM - Re: helmets (Brian Lloyd)
19. 01:09 PM - Re: helmets (Brian Lloyd)
20. 01:10 PM - Re: helmets (Brian Lloyd)
21. 01:20 PM - Re: Helmets (Brian Lloyd)
22. 01:25 PM - Re: helmets (Brian Lloyd)
23. 01:34 PM - Re: helmets (Roger Kemp MD)
24. 01:37 PM - FW: Helmets -Why use one? (Roger Kemp MD)
25. 01:53 PM - Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? (George Coy)
26. 02:00 PM - Re: helmets (Bill Geipel)
27. 02:01 PM - Re: helmets (Gill Gutierrez)
28. 02:34 PM - Re: helmets (Bill Geipel)
29. 02:38 PM - Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? (Bill Geipel)
30. 03:29 PM - Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? (William Halverson)
31. 04:36 PM - Re: helmets (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
32. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
33. 05:34 PM - Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? (cjpilot710@aol.com)
34. 06:02 PM - Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
35. 06:18 PM - Off Topic (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
36. 07:04 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 27 Msgs - 01/04/12 (Garry Pope)
37. 07:04 PM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 27 Msgs - 01/04/12 (Garry Pope)
38. 07:06 PM - Re: Off Topic (cjpilot710@aol.com)
39. 07:54 PM - Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? (Roger Kemp M.D.)
40. 10:40 PM - Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop |
That prop looks very nice, but is there any chance of someone doing a PROPER
scientific and back-to back test against a good [ie with decent blades]
V-530, and a MTV-9-29 ?? There is a place for a subjective view, but the
only REAL test is to compare rate-of climb; vertical penetration; cruise and
max. speed etc., and with the same pilot, weight and corrected for
temperature and pressure.
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is
+94 779 132 160.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Sax
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 9:28 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop
A quick update on my experience with the new Whirlwind 3 blade all composite
propeller.
I have been flying this propeller on my M-14P powered CJ6-A for over three
months now. Simply put - I love it!! Their first 3 blade propeller
(wood/composite - I call it Generation 1) is still a great performing prop,
one that I have been flying for over 10 years but this new model (Generation
2) takes the cake!! Mind you that I am not the engineer type and didn't
perform a comprehensive, scientifically correct test - I am sharing with you
my findings based on my actual hands-on experience flying it. and pardon
me, if I sound a little over-excited.
Needless to say, the new design is flat out gorgeous (in my opinion of
course) - the large diameter of 102" and sleek, military style looks and
large spinner really makes it perfectly proportioned for the CJ6/Yak
aircraft.
The first thing you'll notice, right out of the box is the amazing quality
of Whirlwind's workmanship - that is no real surprise for anyone that is
familiar with their work or flying the stock V-530 propeller that they
reconditioned. The finish and attention to details is incredible.
Naturally, I expected that this propeller would impress me on the very first
flight as I am used to the excellent performance of their "Generation 1"
propeller. Well, I must tell you - I was not disappointed. On takeoff, the
acceleration was very impressive as was initial and sustained climb. One
point I noticed right away was the near perfect balance and minimal
vibrations through the in -flight rpm range - no dynamic balance was done at
the time. The only rpm range with higher vibrations was from 1400 to 1700
rpm, a range I don't spend much time in.
On takeoff I had to push more left rudder than I was used to - I assume it's
the greater 'P factor' effect due to the wider cord of this design. In
cruise, the prop was smooth and response crisp at all rpm changes and flight
attitudes. It is in the vertical axis that this propeller shines! Vertical
penetration is noticeably better in this design as was evident to me when
performing maneuvers like hammerheads and climbing rolls. A specific
example: on top of a 4 G Immelman (inverted) I ended up 8 kts faster than
before (same altitude, entry speed and G pull); again, not a scientific
experiment - only what I've experienced...
Another realm in which this propeller shines is Formation. I fly a lot of
formation (when not doing acro) and really enjoy the quick acceleration when
I change positions or if I get sucked a bit. Deceleration is amazingly
crisp as well and very useful to me in Formation when coming in with 'gusto'
and need to slow down fast so not to overshoot Lead - this large blade acts
like an air brake when quickly pulling the throttle back.
I have taken quite a few pictures ( a couple attached) and several in-flight
videos of the prop and am working on making a short video clip that will be
in a format of a "Product Review" and will post it on YouTube. As soon as I
have the video ready on YouTube, I'll shoot another post to let you all know
J
Thanks for listening,
Sam Sax
CJ-6A
Miami, FL
--
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese Flight Helmets |
I set up one with normal com. A friend set one up with ANR. They're good fo
r the price.
Richard Hess
C 404-964-4885
-----Original Message-----
From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
Sent: Wed, Jan 4, 2012 10:34 pm
Subject: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
Anybody has ever tried one of these?
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/
180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
Are they worth the effort and
osts to have them equipped with
n American GA communication system?
cheers
Elmar
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list |
Mark,
I have emailed you off list without response. Someone emailed me off list and
had this to say about your post....
> I found it funny that the guy who comes in second in all time lengthy, nearly
never ending condemnations of the RPA via the yak list, Mark, is the one now
most influential in shutting down free speech for concerned members and former
members on the list.
They're right in one part, but you are not shutting down my speech. It is a valid
conversation and well within list guidelines. Consider over 200 listers have
viewed my post and you are the only one to direct a complaint at me. If you
have a problem with it, I'm sorry. Submit your complaint to Matt. I will not
be responding further to your attempts to minimize a valid and appropriate discussion.
Barry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362480#362480
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese Flight Helmets |
Thank you everybody for their
input on that matter, very much
appreciated.
It looks like those helmets are
a sort of surplus from the PLAAF
but I have the feeling they might
be cheap replicas and not suitable
for any flight operation.
Thank you again.
cheers
Elmar
Message 5
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Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight.
I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard-shell
helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might be
useful. I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other guys
but I just can't think of why one would NEED one.
Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well as
keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying
aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me.
Just thinking out loud here.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese Flight Helmets |
are they flight helmets, or just cheap replicas?
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 4:37 AM, Richard Hess <hess737@aol.com> wrote:
> I set up one with normal com. A friend set one up with ANR. They're good
> for the price.
>
>
> Richard Hess
> C 404-964-4885
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
> To: Yak-List <Yak-List@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wed, Jan 4, 2012 10:34 pm
> Subject: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
>
> Anybody has ever tried one of these?
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
>
>
> Are they worth the effort and
> costs to have them equipped with
> an American GA communication system?
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
> et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese Flight Helmets |
Elmar,
If you look closely at the helmets you can see that they do not have 02
mask clips on them. If they are PLAAF they will have the clips, if not
they are actually motorcycle helmets. I have been told that there are no
regs in China to watch over quality of these helmets and they are sold as
"motorcycle hats" in China. Rather they will afford you any substantial
degree of protection It's really hard to say. Good helmets are expensive,
but normally it's not hard to get most of your investment back by offering
them on Ebay or on this list.
Suffering a head injury which results in unconsciousness can lead to a huge
mess when dealing with the feds. I was fortunate in that while I did
suffer a pretty good whack to the noggon and some stitches I did not loose
consciousness. Every FAA type I spoke to asked this question, and promptly
told me that I was extremely lucky as the battery of tests to get your
ticket back is long and expensive.
I once thought it would be cool to have the latest version of the current
Chinese military jet helmet, I was quoted $1200.00 for a new in the box
helmet. Oregon Aero wanted another 850.00 to bring it up to speed with
fitted liner, ANR, and break away fittings. Just to spendy for me. I
recently found a nearly new Vietnam era helicopter helmet with gen aviation
coms (not ANR) for $200.00.
Best from Omak,
Doug
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer
<samira.h@shaw.ca>wrote:
> samira.h@shaw.ca>
>
> Thank you everybody for their
> input on that matter, very much
> appreciated.
>
> It looks like those helmets are
> a sort of surplus from the PLAAF
> but I have the feeling they might
> be cheap replicas and not suitable
> for any flight operation.
>
> Thank you again.
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese Flight Helmets |
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Message 9
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Message 10
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Why wear a hard shell helmet? The same reason we wear parachutes. If an emergency
occurs and you should need to bailout a helmet is the minimum safety gear
you would want on your way over the side.
In the event of a forced landing. . . . .given a choice between having a helmet
covering my head or not having one on during impact . . . seems like an easy
choice to me.
Like all safety gear you wear it for the worst case scenarios, not the best!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362491#362491
Message 11
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On Thursday, January 5, 2012, Richard Hess <hess737@aol.com> wrote:
> Brian
> A good friend was in a midair a few years ago. He was knocked hard into a
back corner of the cockpit. He was only a few hundred feet AGL. He said
without the helmet he would have been knocked un conscious and crashed. It
happened to be a converted Chinese helmet!
Interesting. Several things cause my to wonder about this:
1. The helmets sold for aviation provide only minimal impact protection.
2. The mass of the helmet increases the likelihood of neck injury.
3. A properly-adjusted 5 or 6 point harness should limit the range of
motion of the head and prevent contact between head and airframe/canopy.
I do motorsports where a helmet is really needed but an aviation helmet
doesn't even come close to providing the required protection. Still, I
guess something is better than nothing.
Thanks.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 12
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Brian,
While fwd impact is restrained by your shoulder harnesses, they do you
little good in a fast decelerating/twisting type accident. When I lost the
engine in a CJ and put it into a apple orchard the aircraft moved fwd very
little after impact but it did turn almost 90 degrees and stopped in a
little more than its length. That sudden twisting/stopping motion put my
head into the canopy hard enough to crack the glass. Had it actually
broken I would have been sliced, diced, and julienned ( think that's how
you spell it).
Before the accident I felt much like you do, my opinion was that other than
a aid to hear better helmets were a hot, uncomfortable pain in the ass, and
@65 I'm a bit past the need to look cool.
As you may know recently we had our 2nd engine out in our 160 hp Cub
(lycoming engine). Had quite and adventure with immovable objects in the
forest, finally comming to rest sans right wing, left wing pointing
straight up. Again, the shoulder harnesses did their job to keep us out of
the instrument panel, but when the aircraft hit the ground on it's left
side the side load put our heads into the side glass and we both suffered
pretty nasty cuts on our heads.
http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_17227ace-a12c-11e0-9054-001cc4c03286.html
Another point for consideration is those of you who fly without crotch
straps. When we had the first initial impact the force drove us down in
our seats, because we did not have crotch straps the lap belts rose up on
our chests. When the aircraft impacted the second time the force simple
broke our ribs off our sternums. Our back injuries would have happened
either way, but those readers who have experienced broken ribs will I am
sure tell you that it is not something they would want to repeat any time
soon.
What you take away from this post is up to you, but you can bet Kathleen
and I will always wear BOTH a helmet and crotch straps from this point fwd.
Best from Omak,
Doug
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
> Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight.
>
> I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard-shell
> helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might be
> useful. I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other guys
> but I just can't think of why one would NEED one.
>
> Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well as
> keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying
> aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me.
>
> Just thinking out loud here.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 13
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Some years ago at All Red Star, we had a safety briefing by the folks at Fli
ght Suits from SoCal. Part of their presentation regarded the benefits of we
aring a helmet. The part that made a strong impression on me was the picture
s of canopy bird strikes. They were nasty. The message was: Wear a helmet wi
th the visor down.
... Blitz
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 5, 2012, at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
> Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight.
>
> I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard-shell h
elmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might be useful. I
know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other guys but I jus
t can't think of why one would NEED one.
>
> Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well as k
eep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying aerobatic
s makes a lot of functional sense to me.
>
> Just thinking out loud here.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 14
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I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a
helmet can do for you. The helmet is insurance. Twice in the last 15
years of the 50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a massive
concussion. Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a CJ 6 (oil
and water on a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a barn). They
definitely would have been career ending episodes. Numerous times I've been
slammed against the side of the canopy in areas of heavy turbulence. You
can bring up all that mass/acceleration stuff up of no helmet verses helmet,
but the point of impact on the cranium is the final result. Go to any
intensive care unit at any hospital, and ask any doctor about treating
motorcycle accidents and he'll tell you the main injuries are head traumas due
to
lack of a helmet. The physics there are no different than an airplane. I
think it's silly worrying about looking like a "dork" while wearing a
helmet.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/5/2012 2:09:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dougsappllc@gmail.com writes:
Brian,
While fwd impact is restrained by your shoulder harnesses, they do you
little good in a fast decelerating/twisting type accident. When I lost the
engine in a CJ and put it into a apple orchard the aircraft moved fwd very
little after impact but it did turn almost 90 degrees and stopped in a little
more than its length. That sudden twisting/stopping motion put my head
into the canopy hard enough to crack the glass. Had it actually broken I
would have been sliced, diced, and julienned ( think that's how you spell it).
Before the accident I felt much like you do, my opinion was that other
than a aid to hear better helmets were a hot, uncomfortable pain in the ass,
and @65 I'm a bit past the need to look cool.
As you may know recently we had our 2nd engine out in our 160 hp Cub
(lycoming engine). Had quite and adventure with immovable objects in the
forest, finally coming to rest sans right wing, left wing pointing straight up.
Again, the shoulder harnesses did their job to keep us out of the
instrument panel, but when the aircraft hit the ground on it's left side the side
load put our heads into the side glass and we both suffered pretty nasty
cuts on our heads.
_http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_17227ace-a12c-11e0-9054-001cc4c03286.html_
(http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_17227ace-a12c-11e0-9054-001cc4c03286.html)
Another point for consideration is those of you who fly without crotch
straps. When we had the first initial impact the force drove us down in our
seats, because we did not have crotch straps the lap belts rose up on our
chests. When the aircraft impacted the second time the force simple broke
our ribs off our sternums. Our back injuries would have happened either way,
but those readers who have experienced broken ribs will I am sure tell you
that it is not something they would want to repeat any time soon.
What you take away from this post is up to you, but you can bet Kathleen
and I will always wear BOTH a helmet and crotch straps from this point fwd.
Best from Omak,
Doug
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <_brian@lloyd.com_
(mailto:brian@lloyd.com) > wrote:
Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight.
I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard-shell
helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might be useful.
I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other guys but I
just can't think of why one would NEED one.
Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well as
keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying
aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me.
Just thinking out loud here.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
_brian@lloyd.com_ (mailto:brian@lloyd.com)
_+1.767.617.1365_ (tel:+1.767.617.1365) (Dominica)
_+1.916.877.5067_ (tel:+1.916.877.5067) (USA)
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 15
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I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!
Bill
On Jan 5, 2012, at 1:14 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a h
elmet can do for you. The helmet is insurance. Twice in the last 15 years o
f the 50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a massive concu
ssion. Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a CJ 6 (oil and w
ater on a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a barn). They definitel
y would have been career ending episodes. Numerous times I've been slammed a
gainst the side of the canopy in areas of heavy turbulence. You can bring u
p all that mass/acceleration stuff up of no helmet verses helmet, but the po
int of impact on the cranium is the final result. Go to any intensive care u
nit at any hospital, and ask any doctor about treating motorcycle accidents a
nd he'll tell you the main injuries are head traumas due to lack of a helmet
. The physics there are no different than an airplane. I think it's silly w
orrying about looking like a "dork" while wearing a helmet.
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
> In a message dated 1/5/2012 2:09:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dougsappll
c@gmail.com writes:
> Brian,
> While fwd impact is restrained by your shoulder harnesses, they do you lit
tle good in a fast decelerating/twisting type accident. When I lost the eng
ine in a CJ and put it into a apple orchard the aircraft moved fwd very litt
le after impact but it did turn almost 90 degrees and stopped in a little mo
re than its length. That sudden twisting/stopping motion put my head int
o the canopy hard enough to crack the glass. Had it actually broken I would
have been sliced, diced, and julienned ( think that's how you spell it).
>
> Before the accident I felt much like you do, my opinion was that other tha
n a aid to hear better helmets were a hot, uncomfortable pain in the ass, an
d @65 I'm a bit past the need to look cool.
>
> As you may know recently we had our 2nd engine out in our 160 hp Cub (lyc
oming engine). Had quite and adventure with immovable objects in the forest
, finally coming to rest sans right wing, left wing pointing straight up. A
gain, the shoulder harnesses did their job to keep us out of the instrument p
anel, but when the aircraft hit the ground on it's left side the side load p
ut our heads into the side glass and we both suffered pretty nasty cuts on o
ur heads. http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_17227ace-
a12c-11e0-9054-001cc4c03286.html
>
> Another point for consideration is those of you who fly without crotch str
aps. When we had the first initial impact the force drove us down in our se
ats, because we did not have crotch straps the lap belts rose up on our ches
ts. When the aircraft impacted the second time the force simple broke our r
ibs off our sternums. Our back injuries would have happened either way, but
those readers who have experienced broken ribs will I am sure tell you that
it is not something they would want to repeat any time soon.
>
> What you take away from this post is up to you, but you can bet Kathleen a
nd I will always wear BOTH a helmet and crotch straps from this point fwd.
>
>
> Best from Omak,
> Doug
>
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
> Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight.
>
> I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard-shell h
elmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might be useful. I
know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other guys but I jus
t can't think of why one would NEED one.
>
> Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well as k
eep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying aerobatic
s makes a lot of functional sense to me.
>
> Just thinking out loud here.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 16
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I can vouch for that Pappy! I call my helmetless trauma motorcyclists "organ
donors"!
JS Rittenbach MD
On Jan 5, 2012, at 12:14 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a h
elmet can do for you. The helmet is insurance. Twice in the last 15 years o
f the 50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a massive concu
ssion. Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a CJ 6 (oil and w
ater on a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a barn). They definitel
y would have been career ending episodes. Numerous times I've been slammed a
gainst the side of the canopy in areas of heavy turbulence. You can bring u
p all that mass/acceleration stuff up of no helmet verses helmet, but the po
int of impact on the cranium is the final result. Go to any intensive care u
nit at any hospital, and ask any doctor about treating motorcycle accidents a
nd he'll tell you the main injuries are head traumas due to lack of a helmet
. The physics there are no different than an airplane. I think it's silly w
orrying about looking like a "dork" while wearing a helmet.
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
> In a message dated 1/5/2012 2:09:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dougsappll
c@gmail.com writes:
> Brian,
> While fwd impact is restrained by your shoulder harnesses, they do you lit
tle good in a fast decelerating/twisting type accident. When I lost the eng
ine in a CJ and put it into a apple orchard the aircraft moved fwd very litt
le after impact but it did turn almost 90 degrees and stopped in a little mo
re than its length. That sudden twisting/stopping motion put my head int
o the canopy hard enough to crack the glass. Had it actually broken I would
have been sliced, diced, and julienned ( think that's how you spell it).
>
> Before the accident I felt much like you do, my opinion was that other tha
n a aid to hear better helmets were a hot, uncomfortable pain in the ass, an
d @65 I'm a bit past the need to look cool.
>
> As you may know recently we had our 2nd engine out in our 160 hp Cub (lyc
oming engine). Had quite and adventure with immovable objects in the forest
, finally coming to rest sans right wing, left wing pointing straight up. A
gain, the shoulder harnesses did their job to keep us out of the instrument p
anel, but when the aircraft hit the ground on it's left side the side load p
ut our heads into the side glass and we both suffered pretty nasty cuts on o
ur heads. http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_17227ace-
a12c-11e0-9054-001cc4c03286.html
>
> Another point for consideration is those of you who fly without crotch str
aps. When we had the first initial impact the force drove us down in our se
ats, because we did not have crotch straps the lap belts rose up on our ches
ts. When the aircraft impacted the second time the force simple broke our r
ibs off our sternums. Our back injuries would have happened either way, but
those readers who have experienced broken ribs will I am sure tell you that
it is not something they would want to repeat any time soon.
>
> What you take away from this post is up to you, but you can bet Kathleen a
nd I will always wear BOTH a helmet and crotch straps from this point fwd.
>
>
> Best from Omak,
> Doug
>
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
> Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight.
>
> I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard-shell h
elmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might be useful. I
know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other guys but I jus
t can't think of why one would NEED one.
>
> Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well as k
eep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying aerobatic
s makes a lot of functional sense to me.
>
> Just thinking out loud here.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 17
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>
> Here's a link to "Flight Helmets and Risk Management", and article I wrote
for Sport Aerobatics a year ago.
>
Rick VOLKER
> http://db.tt/8kHbhr54
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:14 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
> **
> I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a
> helmet can do for you. The helmet is insurance. Twice in the last 15
> years of the 50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a
> massive concussion. Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a
> CJ 6 (oil and water on a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a
> barn). They definitely would have been career ending episodes. Numerous
> times I've been slammed against the side of the canopy in areas of heavy
> turbulence. You can bring up all that mass/acceleration stuff up of no
> helmet verses helmet, but the point of impact on the cranium is the final
> result. Go to any intensive care unit at any hospital, and ask any doctor
> about treating motorcycle accidents and he'll tell you the main injuries
> are head traumas due to lack of a helmet. The physics there are no
> different than an airplane. I think it's silly worrying about looking like
> a "dork" while wearing a helmet.
> Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
>
I think that people misunderstand why I am asking the question. I am not
asking if helmets are useful -- there is no question that they are. The
real question is, are the helmets we are currently using useful. (This is
actually a very similar question to the whole flight-suit question where we
realized that the standard, single-layer nomex flight suit provides little
or no fire protection.)
I got to learn a LOT about helmets last year. One of my students is very
much into "extreme" cycling and decided that perhaps he should design a
better helmet. (He did it as his science fair project and took 3rd place in
California State for students in 6th-8th grades.) He did much of the
testing of his experimental helmets at Snell Testing Labs in Sacramento.
Also, I helped him develop his own energy-transfer testing apparatus for
various energy-absorbing foams. It was quite interesting to see how various
shell materials and construction techniques changed the momentum and energy
transfer to the brain. (Having real instrumentation takes things out of the
realm of opinion.)
The key thing we learned is that building a helmet that really protects
your head from damage is amazingly complex. The helmets that have been
developed for flying provide very little protection from impact. Do they
help some? Probably. Do they help enough to justify using them? Not clear.
Could there be other approaches that would result in better protection?
Possibly.
One of the things I was thinking about is how the seat could protect better
in the event of a lateral impact, preventing the sideways motion that puts
the head into the canopy.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 19
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On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>wrote:
> I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!
>
I think that is what is called, "levity," right?
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 20
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On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>wrote:
> I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!
>
And you are correct in stating that my safe doesn't have a helmet either.
It doesn't really need one.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 21
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On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:48 PM, RICHARD VOLKER <rick@rvairshows.com> wrote:
>
>
> Here's a link to "Flight Helmets and Risk Management", and article I wrote
> for Sport Aerobatics a year ago.
>
> Rick VOLKER
>
> <http://db.tt/8kHbhr54> <http://db.tt/8kHbhr54>http://db.tt/8kHbhr54
>
>
Thank you Rick. Excellent article. It addresses some of the things I was
worrying about, e.g. additional neck loads.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 22
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On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:47 PM, J Rittenbach <jrittenbach@rocketmail.com>wrote:
> I can vouch for that Pappy! I call my helmetless trauma motorcyclists
> "organ donors"!
>
Oh, I agree. I wouldn't even consider riding without a full-face
Snell-tested helmet and protective clothing with proper armor. (And I
worked on the first automated patient-monitoring system and spent a LOT of
time in the trauma and burn units. Motorcycle accidents made up the bulk of
trauma admissions.)
But we are talking airplanes and not motorcycles. The environment is
different enough to make my questions valid and not
immediately dismissible. Rick Volker's article is the first real approach
to the question that I have seen and even it admits necessary trade-offs.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 23
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Right
Doc
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: helmets
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>
wrote:
I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!
I think that is what is called, "levity," right?
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 24
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| Subject: | FW: Helmets -Why use one? |
The Gentex HGU- 55/P lightweight helmet was designed so the helmet
assembly does not tear away from the head, loosen, or break during wind
blast velocities of 450 knots (+/- 20 knots) KAS in the following attitudes:
head on, 45 deg. Yaw right or left and 30 deg pitch to aft.
Penetration resistance: The helmet assembly limits a 16 oz. test bob from
penetrating the helmet and energy absorbing liner not more than 0.25 inches
from a drop height of 10 feet.
Visors: have been windblast and sled tested at 600 kts. They provide 99% UV
protection.
Weight: Medium 2.23 lb, Large 2.37 lb, and X Large 2.48 lbs.
Now why do I wear a helmet when I am flying the YAK? I don't know maybe it
is because I have flown with this type helmet for the last 29.5 years up
until my retirement a year ago. Have had my head banged off the canopy by
some of the best hamfists in the AF at 7,8, and 9 G's. My cranium stayed
intact as did the squash contained within it without sending me to laula
land and possibly my death.
I have inadvertently banged my head around in the 50 with an aggressive
break turn a couple of times during some 1 V 1 engagements. My cranium still
remains intact nor did I put myself to sleep.
Now since the human cranium on average weighs 32 lbs adding the additional
2.37 lbs is going to marginally increase the load on the cervical spine
under G. Most in the community will pull 5 to 6 G's but few will be pulling
9. So your cranium is going to weigh roughly 206.22 lbs as compared to a
bare cranium weighing 192 lbs at 6 G's. Now given that I can bailout at up
to 450 +/-20 kts with my eyes and cranium better protected than in the raw
along with knowing that 1 lb tree limb smacking me over the head as I
penetrate the trees or that small bolder my head may bounce off of as I do
my PLF leads me to feel more secure wearing the helmet vs. my bare cranium
skinning through the trees and rocks.
But, as said before, you can fly in whatever attire you wish. It is your
safety and your rosy pink ars.
Doc
Message 25
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| Subject: | FW: Helmets -Why use one? |
Speaking of bird strikes, In my 17000+ hrs in small piston aircraft I only
had one bird strike. Unfortunately, the bird was sitting in his nest in a
tree at the time. Fortunately his tree helped slow things down so we met the
ground, we did not even get a stiff neck out of it.
George
Message 26
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Yep.
Bill
On Jan 5, 2012, at 2:30 PM, "Roger Kemp MD" <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Right
> Doc
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 3:03 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: helmets
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net> wro
te:
> I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!
>
> I think that is what is called, "levity," right?
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
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>
Message 27
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Have all of you thought about taking up golf and giving the keyboards a
rest?
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: helmets
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>
wrote:
I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!
And you are correct in stating that my safe doesn't have a helmet either. It
doesn't really need one.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 28
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Nah. Old, retired, bored, to cold to fly. And we like picking on Brian. And h
e enjoys it too.
Bill
On Jan 5, 2012, at 2:58 PM, "Gill Gutierrez" <gill.g@gpimail.com> wrote:
> Have all of you thought about taking up golf and giving the keyboards a re
st?
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:04 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: helmets
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net> wro
te:
> I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!
>
> And you are correct in stating that my safe doesn't have a helmet either. I
t doesn't really need one.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
>
> < - The Yak-List Email Forum Use the Matronics List Features Navigat
or to browse
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
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>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? |
Beautiful.
Bill
On Jan 5, 2012, at 2:48 PM, "George Coy" <george.coy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Speaking of bird strikes, In my 17000+ hrs in small piston aircraft I only
had one bird strike. Unfortunately, the bird was sitting in his nest in a t
ree at the time. Fortunately his tree helped slow things down so we met the g
round, we did not even get a stiff neck out of it.
>
> George
>
>
>
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>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? |
What about the bird?
;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: George Coy [mailto:george.coy@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2012 01:48 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: FW: Helmets -Why use one?
Speaking of bird strikes, In my 17000+ hrs in small piston aircraft I onl
y had one bird strike. Unfortunately, the bird was sitting in his nest in
a tree at the time. Fortunately his tree helped slow things down so we m
et the ground, we did not even get a stiff neck out of it.
George
Message 31
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Being from North Carolina, I would have to point you to NASCAR dot com.
:-)
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Thu 1/5/2012 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: helmets
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:14 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a helmet
can do for you. The helmet is insurance. Twice in the last 15 years of the
50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a massive concussion.
Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a CJ 6 (oil and water on
a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a barn). They definitely would have
been career ending episodes. Numerous times I've been slammed against the
side of the canopy in areas of heavy turbulence. You can bring up all that mass/acceleration
stuff up of no helmet verses helmet, but the point of impact
on the cranium is the final result. Go to any intensive care unit at any hospital,
and ask any doctor about treating motorcycle accidents and he'll tell you
the main injuries are head traumas due to lack of a helmet. The physics there
are no different than an airplane. I think it's silly worrying about looking
like a "dork" while wearing a helmet.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
I think that people misunderstand why I am asking the question. I am not asking
if helmets are useful -- there is no question that they are. The real question
is, are the helmets we are currently using useful. (This is actually a very
similar question to the whole flight-suit question where we realized that the
standard, single-layer nomex flight suit provides little or no fire protection.)
I got to learn a LOT about helmets last year. One of my students is very much into
"extreme" cycling and decided that perhaps he should design a better helmet.
(He did it as his science fair project and took 3rd place in California State
for students in 6th-8th grades.) He did much of the testing of his experimental
helmets at Snell Testing Labs in Sacramento. Also, I helped him develop his
own energy-transfer testing apparatus for various energy-absorbing foams. It
was quite interesting to see how various shell materials and construction techniques
changed the momentum and energy transfer to the brain. (Having real instrumentation
takes things out of the realm of opinion.)
The key thing we learned is that building a helmet that really protects your head
from damage is amazingly complex. The helmets that have been developed for
flying provide very little protection from impact. Do they help some? Probably.
Do they help enough to justify using them? Not clear. Could there be other approaches
that would result in better protection? Possibly.
One of the things I was thinking about is how the seat could protect better in
the event of a lateral impact, preventing the sideways motion that puts the head
into the canopy.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list |
Barry, I do not respond to people that take off-line private messages and make
them public. Private messages are private. People who take them public ....
well, just not the kind of thing I do.
By the way, the person who made those comments was Drew. He called and we talked
today about this for about an hour. He understands now and we parted understanding
each other. A really professional guy.
My posting was a request and suggestion by one person. Me. You describe it as
a complaint. I did not use that word. I have done the exact same thing you
have done and have been called down for it. I admit that. I was wrong to do
it then, and I admit that too. How many times would you like me to admit that
I made a mistake, and then say I will try not to do it again, and in fact now
try to listen to the requests of others on the YAK-List. You on the other
hand, want to argue about it. You indeed do remind me of myself 10 years ago.
Sorry you don't like my point of view on this, but it has been gained from the
suggestions of many other YAK list members who have said the same thing to me
that I (and others) are now trying to say to you.
I have told Drew that I am not going to bash the RPA, or list all the reasons why
I am not a fan of the organization, and I intend to keep that promise.
However, if you want to turn this into some kind of personal vendetta, that is
100% up to you. I am not looking for that, but I don't run from a bully either.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of barryhancock
Sent: Thu 1/5/2012 10:38 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
Mark,
I have emailed you off list without response. Someone emailed me off list and
had this to say about your post....
> I found it funny that the guy who comes in second in all time lengthy, nearly
never ending condemnations of the RPA via the yak list, Mark, is the one now
most influential in shutting down free speech for concerned members and former
members on the list.
They're right in one part, but you are not shutting down my speech. It is a valid
conversation and well within list guidelines. Consider over 200 listers have
viewed my post and you are the only one to direct a complaint at me. If you
have a problem with it, I'm sorry. Submit your complaint to Matt. I will not
be responding further to your attempts to minimize a valid and appropriate discussion.
Barry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362480#362480
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? |
I could not have said it better.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/5/2012 4:37:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
viperdoc@mindspring.com writes:
The Gentex HGU- 55/P lightweight helmet was designed so the helmet
assembly does not tear away from the head, loosen, or break during wind bl
ast
velocities of 450 knots (+/- 20 knots) KAS in the following attitudes: hea
d
on, 45 deg. Yaw right or left and 30 deg pitch to aft.
Penetration resistance: The helmet assembly limits a 16 oz. test bob from
penetrating the helmet and energy absorbing liner not more than 0.25
inches from a drop height of 10 feet.
Visors: have been windblast and sled tested at 600 kts. They provide 99%
UV protection.
Weight: Medium 2.23 lb, Large 2.37 lb, and X Large 2.48 lbs.
Now why do I wear a helmet when I am flying the YAK? I don=99t know
maybe it
is because I have flown with this type helmet for the last 29.5 years up
until my retirement a year ago. Have had my head banged off the canopy by
some of the best hamfists in the AF at 7,8, and 9 G=99s. My cranium
stayed
intact as did the squash contained within it without sending me to laula l
and
and possibly my death.
I have inadvertently banged my head around in the 50 with an aggressive
break turn a couple of times during some 1 V 1 engagements. My cranium sti
ll
remains intact nor did I put myself to sleep.
Now since the human cranium on average weighs 32 lbs adding the additional
2.37 lbs is going to marginally increase the load on the cervical spine
under G. Most in the community will pull 5 to 6 G=99s but few will
be pulling
9. So your cranium is going to weigh roughly 206.22 lbs as compared to a
bare cranium weighing 192 lbs at 6 G=99s. Now given that I can bailo
ut at up to
450 +/-20 kts with my eyes and cranium better protected than in the raw
along with knowing that 1 lb tree limb smacking me over the head as I
penetrate the trees or that small bolder my head may bounce off of as I do
my PLF
leads me to feel more secure wearing the helmet vs. my bare cranium
skinning through the trees and rocks.
But, as said before, you can fly in whatever attire you wish. It is your
safety and your rosy pink ars.
Doc
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 34
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| Subject: | FW: Helmets -Why use one? |
Yeah Doc, that was pretty freaking impressive.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Thu 1/5/2012 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: FW: Helmets -Why use one?
I could not have said it better.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 1/5/2012 4:37:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, viperdoc@mindspring.com
writes:
The Gentex HGU- 55/P lightweight helmet was designed so the helmet assembly
does not tear away from the head, loosen, or break during wind blast velocities
of 450 knots (+/- 20 knots) KAS in the following attitudes: head on, 45 deg.
Yaw right or left and 30 deg pitch to aft.
Penetration resistance: The helmet assembly limits a 16 oz. test bob from penetrating
the helmet and energy absorbing liner not more than 0.25 inches from
a drop height of 10 feet.
Visors: have been windblast and sled tested at 600 kts. They provide 99% UV protection.
Weight: Medium 2.23 lb, Large 2.37 lb, and X Large 2.48 lbs.
Now why do I wear a helmet when I am flying the YAK? I don't know maybe it is
because I have flown with this type helmet for the last 29.5 years up until my
retirement a year ago. Have had my head banged off the canopy by some of the
best hamfists in the AF at 7,8, and 9 G's. My cranium stayed intact as did the
squash contained within it without sending me to laula land and possibly my
death.
I have inadvertently banged my head around in the 50 with an aggressive break
turn a couple of times during some 1 V 1 engagements. My cranium still remains
intact nor did I put myself to sleep.
Now since the human cranium on average weighs 32 lbs adding the additional 2.37
lbs is going to marginally increase the load on the cervical spine under G.
Most in the community will pull 5 to 6 G's but few will be pulling 9. So your
cranium is going to weigh roughly 206.22 lbs as compared to a bare cranium weighing
192 lbs at 6 G's. Now given that I can bailout at up to 450 +/-20 kts with
my eyes and cranium better protected than in the raw along with knowing that
1 lb tree limb smacking me over the head as I penetrate the trees or that small
bolder my head may bounce off of as I do my PLF leads me to feel more secure
wearing the helmet vs. my bare cranium skinning through the trees and rocks.
But, as said before, you can fly in whatever attire you wish. It is your safety
and your rosy pink ars.
Doc
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 35
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Having absolutely nothing to do with YAKS or CJ's .... but I thought some folks
might enjoy this.
Sent from a young Marine SSgt in Bagram Afghanistan:
________________________________
From: SSgt USMC AFCENT
Sent: Thu 1/5/2012 1:29 PM
Subject: RE:
8 inches on the ground right now, calling for 6-8 more tonight and another
4-6 tomorrow night. Jesus, is correct, everything is covered in
snow.....Having to trudge through it back and forth to work and living
quarters. Thank Heavens I brought thermal, water proof socks before I came out
here
last time and brought them with me this time.....
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 27 Msgs - 01/04/12 |
I purchased one a couple of years ago, fitted it with ANR, modified the ear cups,
and added padding/spacers between the ear cups and helmet, so I could hear.
It has worked well.
The only problem is the helmet is made of hard fiberglass and expands very little
when trying to pull over your head.
Also, if the ear cups don't have enough spacer thickness , then it will be noisy,
even with the ANR.
I do like the built in visor and it comes with clear and tinted shields. The helmets
are a little uncomfortable, but you get used to it. I have an ANR problem
at the moment and am using an alternate headset.
Garry
N92864
M14-P
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 5, 2012, at 3:00 AM, Yak-List Digest Server <yak-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the Yak-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 12-01-04&Archive=Yak
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 12-01-04&Archive=Yak
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Yak-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Wed 01/04/12: 27
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:48 AM - ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Drew B)
> 2. 06:27 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Richard Hess)
> 3. 06:56 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Kurt Howerton)
> 4. 08:00 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Brian Lloyd)
> 5. 09:53 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 6. 10:03 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (George Coy)
> 7. 10:13 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Kregg Victory)
> 8. 12:08 PM - Re: Barry's concerns (barryhancock)
> 9. 12:25 PM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Bill Geipel)
> 10. 12:33 PM - RPA discussions on the Yak-list (barryhancock)
> 11. 01:21 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 12. 03:30 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Brian Lloyd)
> 13. 03:46 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 14. 04:17 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Brian Lloyd)
> 15. 04:42 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 16. 05:01 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (cjpilot710@aol.com)
> 17. 06:20 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Roger Kemp M.D.)
> 18. 07:00 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Gary Gabbard)
> 19. 07:04 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 20. 07:34 PM - Chinese Flight Helmets (Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer)
> 21. 08:01 PM - Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop (Sam Sax)
> 22. 08:13 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Brian Lloyd)
> 23. 08:55 PM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Kurt Howerton)
> 24. 09:20 PM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Javier Carrasco)
> 25. 09:20 PM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Javier Carrasco)
> 26. 11:31 PM - Re: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop (Jan Mevis)
> 27. 11:42 PM - Calculation of C of G in percentage MAC (Jan Mevis)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:48:55 AM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed with
> our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise folks
> may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list, while I can not
> recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of your basic concerns
> you posted about your contribution, and I would like to go on the record
> now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard" (your descriptor)
> was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at
> ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while
> the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive
> detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the
> material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was
> not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in
> Part I. Enough said.
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere in
> the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and huge
> volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his
> proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your
> organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military
> aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails
> painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and
> unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've
> come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation
> organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by
> the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical
> material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a
> qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead
> a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity
> on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize
> "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your
> fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is
> simply this; this is your opportunity to help others.
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating
> in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer,
> general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you,
> me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help
> us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old
> saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set
> don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA
> president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national
> directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter,
> except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the
> RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of
> a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or
> planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership
> services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales,
> training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of the
> BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just use
> that word correctly Brian) role of "president" should end after this
> administration in favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from
> that Board.
>
>
> --
> *Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!*
> *(ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)*
> *
> *
> *
> *
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:27:42 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: Richard Hess <hess737@aol.com>
>
>
> Drew,
> Thanks for all the info. I would like to piggyback on your comment about it
> being a civilian organization as it relates to the tactical comments from
> some earlier posts.
>
> I may have been one of the first to question us doing tactical events. I ha
> d a near miss doing one of these exercises at Waycross a few years ago. It
> sobered me as to the risks and made me question what the organization itsel
> f should be endorsing.
>
> I also flew in a 24-ship at Oshkosh some years ago. High winds and an overw
> orked airboss made for a less than pleasant experience. Again, I began to q
> uestion what we are doing as an organization.
>
> My company does lots of maintenance and training for some third world air f
> orces. We in essense have a contract with the US State Dept. They control w
> hat we are approved to do. Much of what we freely share at RPA and CJAA I a
> m prohibited from teaching overseas. Interesting, eh?
>
> My point is that we have a very wide variety of experience levels in our co
> mmunity. Some of us have done all the tactical stuff in our previous lives,
> some have not. I believe an individual instructor should choose what level
> to teach someone based on that person's skills, experience, and desires. F
> ormation and tactical flying makes you a better pilot, period.
>
> However, the emphasis should be on basics. A guy who can barely hang on the
> wing in 2 or 4-ship has no business being in a 24-ship. A guy who can't do
> extended trail without parking in the lead's six and sucking up his wake t
> urbulence has no business doing tactical maneuvering.
>
> Everyone can and should strive for perfection in the basics and then contin
> ue to practice and learn new things. However, there is a real risk to RPA p
> ublishing and endorsing high level activities. I promise any accident can a
> nd will come back to bite us. I believe we can deal with this kind of activ
> ity on a local level.
>
> Anyway, sorry for being long winded but I love you guys and this flying so
> much that I hate to see safety being compromised in any way. What we do is
> already a high risk activity. It is up to us to manage that risk so that we
> have the pleasure of this privilege for a long time to come.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Richard Hess
> C 404-964-4885
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wed, Jan 4, 2012 8:49 am
> Subject: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed with
> our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise folks m
> ay get frustrated and give up.
>
>
> Brian,
>
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list, while I can not reca
> ll all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of your basic concerns you
> posted about your contribution, and I would like to go on the record now,
> again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard" (your descriptor) was r
> eacting to you.
>
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at A
> RS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while th
> e content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive detailed
> as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the material).
>
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was no
> t comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in Part
> I. Enough said.
>
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere in
> the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and huge
> volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his procliv
> ity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your organi
> zation function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military aviato
> rs credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails painting
> him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and unwarranted. His
> attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've come across.
>
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation organiz
> ation. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by the milit
> ary and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical material (i
> .e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a qualitative differe
> nce in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead a flight, demonstr
> ate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity on the radio in for
> mation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in
> or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all*
> this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is
> your opportunity to help others.
>
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating i
> n the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer, ge
> neral contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you, m
> e and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help u
> s with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old saying
> , "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we
> ...
>
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA pre
> sident should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national directors
> that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter, except ones de
> sire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the RPA functions u
> nder effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of a civilian orga
> nization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or planes in to b
> attle, we are developing, managing and producing membership services (websi
> tes, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, i
> nstructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of the
> BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just use
> that word correctly Brian) role of "president" should end after this admin
> istration in favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Bo
> ard.
>
>
> --
> Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!
> (ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)
>
>
> -= - The Yak-List Email Forum -
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>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:56:23 AM PST US
> From: Kurt Howerton <grabstein@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
> All -
>
> The key to the RPA forums is to be logged in to the RPA site before
> choosing "forums" on the "members" menu. The integration is a bit clunky
> and you may have to pick the menu item again, although it seems to work
> fine most of the time.
>
> Like everyone else, I have limited time to volunteer to this. Don't wait
> for it to be perfect.
>
> --
> Kurt Howerton
> W: 916.355.3968
> M: 530.312.1299
>
> Sent from my phone
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 5:54 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed with
> our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise folks
> may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list, while I can not
> recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of your basic concerns
> you posted about your contribution, and I would like to go on the record
> now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard" (your descriptor)
> was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at
> ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while
> the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive
> detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the
> material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was
> not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in
> Part I. Enough said.
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere in
> the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and huge
> volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his
> proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your
> organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military
> aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails
> painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and
> unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've
> come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation
> organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by
> the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical
> material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a
> qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead
> a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity
> on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize
> "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your
> fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is
> simply this; this is your opportunity to help others.
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating
> in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer,
> general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you,
> me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help
> us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old
> saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set
> don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA
> president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national
> directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter,
> except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the
> RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of
> a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or
> planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership
> services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales,
> training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of the
> BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just use
> that word correctly Brian) role of "president" should end after this
> administration in favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from
> that Board.
>
>
> --
> *Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!*
> *(ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)*
> *
> *
> *
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:00:21 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed
>> with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise
>> folks may get frustrated and give up.
>>
>> Brian,
>>
>> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>>
>
> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I am
> interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely intellectual.
> While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention is to sell it and
> eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems to come under the
> purvey of RPA.
>
>
>> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of
>> your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I would like to
>> go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard"
>> (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>>
>> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at
>> ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while
>> the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive
>> detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the
>> material).
>>
>> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was
>> not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in
>> Part I. Enough said.
>>
>
> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try to
> advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and politics
> raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a no-win situation.
> But I would have undoubtedly been much much more flexible and accommodating
> had you explained then. I am no different than anyone else; when I work
> hard and do a good job, I want someone to recognize same and say, "Good
> job."
>
>
>> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere
>> in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and
>> huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his
>> proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your
>> organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military
>> aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails
>> painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and
>> unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've
>> come across.
>>
>> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation
>> organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by
>> the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical
>> material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a
>> qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead
>> a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity
>> on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize
>> "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your
>> fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is
>> simply this; this is your opportunity to help others.
>>
>
> Spot on.
>
>
>>
>> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating
>> in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer,
>> general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you,
>> me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help
>> us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old
>> saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set
>> don't we...
>>
>> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA
>> president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national
>> directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter,
>> except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the
>> RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of
>> a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or
>> planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership
>> services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales,
>> training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>>
>
> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52
> (and similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the
> technology and operating parameters are no different than similar civilian
> aircraft. I am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as "a cut
> above" because we fly these aircraft, the reality is, these aircraft are in
> no way more difficult to fly nor do they require special procedures outside
> those used to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper, or Beechcraft.
> Lastly, the rules and airspace in which we fly are civil, not military.
>
> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what *would*
> set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that the answer
> is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and professionalism. To be
> honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a C-150 who knows every nut,
> bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and who has developed the skill to
> fly it to its absolute limits safely, than I am with an ex-military pilot
> who sustains his ego with hair-raising stories of near-death and mayhem
> caused by poor decision making, an abundance of power, and
> an indestructible airframe.
>
>
>>
>> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of
>> the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just
>> use that word correctly Brian)
>>
>
> :-) It works.
>
>
>> role of "president" should end after this administration in favor of a
>> Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>>
>
> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA does
> well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and Congress,
> while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just a thought.
>
> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:53:23 AM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.
> Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves. I have held off
> on this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but
> enough is enough.
>
> Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous
> with RPA.
>
> So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:57
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I
> emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through,
> otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>
>
> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I
> am interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely
> intellectual. While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention
> is to sell it and eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems
> to come under the purvey of RPA.
>
>
> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted
> both of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I
> would like to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how
> the "old guard" (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I
> OKed that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically
> accurate (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as
> comprehensive detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can
> imagine knew the material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a
> conversation I was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and
> I relate to it in Part I. Enough said.
>
>
> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try
> to advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and
> politics raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a
> no-win situation. But I would have undoubtedly been much much more
> flexible and accommodating had you explained then. I am no different
> than anyone else; when I work hard and do a good job, I want someone to
> recognize same and say, "Good job."
>
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen
> anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ
> owner, and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I
> suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an
> attempt t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps
> his lack of a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in
> a flurry of RPA emails painting him in a negative light that was highly
> short sighted and unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is
> one of the best I've come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian*
> aviation organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are
> employed by the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from
> their technical material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If
> there is a qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief
> a flight, lead a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman,
> execute brevity on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public
> speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen
> often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all
> military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is your opportunity to
> help others.
>
>
> Spot on.
>
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about
> operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came
> from a lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer,
> etc....Having said that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to
> listen when someone is trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or
> advice; it goes back to that age old saying, "park your ego at the
> door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the
> next RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the
> national directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such
> filter, except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as
> long as the RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good
> stewardship of a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not
> leading troops or planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and
> producing membership services (websites, magazines, internet
> newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, instructor development,
> fly-in support, etc.)
>
>
> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52
> (and similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the
> technology and operating parameters are no different than similar
> civilian aircraft. I am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as
> "a cut above" because we fly these aircraft, the reality is, these
> aircraft are in no way more difficult to fly nor do they require special
> procedures outside those used to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper,
> or Beechcraft. Lastly, the rules and airspace in which we fly are civil,
> not military.
>
> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what
> *would* set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that
> the answer is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and
> professionalism. To be honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a
> C-150 who knows every nut, bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and
> who has developed the skill to fly it to its absolute limits safely,
> than I am with an ex-military pilot who sustains his ego with
> hair-raising stories of near-death and mayhem caused by poor decision
> making, an abundance of power, and an indestructible airframe.
>
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in
> need of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic
> (did I just use that word correctly Brian)
>
>
> :-) It works.
>
>
> role of "president" should end after this administration in
> favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>
>
> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA
> does well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and
> Congress, while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just
> a thought.
>
> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:03:11 AM PST US
> From: "George Coy" <george.coy@gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> Ahmen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
> CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:02 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.
> Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves. I have held off
> on this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but
> enough is enough.
>
> Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous
> with RPA.
>
> So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:57
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I
> emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through,
> otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>
>
> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I
> am interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely
> intellectual. While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention
> is to sell it and eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems
> to come under the purvey of RPA.
>
>
> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted
> both of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I
> would like to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how
> the "old guard" (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I
> OKed that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically
> accurate (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as
> comprehensive detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can
> imagine knew the material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a
> conversation I was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and
> I relate to it in Part I. Enough said.
>
>
> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try
> to advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and
> politics raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a
> no-win situation. But I would have undoubtedly been much much more
> flexible and accommodating had you explained then. I am no different
> than anyone else; when I work hard and do a good job, I want someone to
> recognize same and say, "Good job."
>
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen
> anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ
> owner, and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I
> suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an
> attempt t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps
> his lack of a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in
> a flurry of RPA emails painting him in a negative light that was highly
> short sighted and unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is
> one of the best I've come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian*
> aviation organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are
> employed by the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from
> their technical material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If
> there is a qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief
> a flight, lead a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman,
> execute brevity on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public
> speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen
> often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all
> military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is your opportunity to
> help others.
>
>
> Spot on.
>
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about
> operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came
> from a lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer,
> etc....Having said that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to
> listen when someone is trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or
> advice; it goes back to that age old saying, "park your ego at the
> door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the
> next RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the
> national directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such
> filter, except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as
> long as the RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good
> stewardship of a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not
> leading troops or planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and
> producing membership services (websites, magazines, internet
> newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, instructor development,
> fly-in support, etc.)
>
>
> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52
> (and similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the
> technology and operating parameters are no different than similar
> civilian aircraft. I am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as
> "a cut above" because we fly these aircraft, the reality is, these
> aircraft are in no way more difficult to fly nor do they require special
> procedures outside those used to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper,
> or Beechcraft. Lastly, the rules and airspace in which we fly are civil,
> not military.
>
> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what
> *would* set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that
> the answer is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and
> professionalism. To be honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a
> C-150 who knows every nut, bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and
> who has developed the skill to fly it to its absolute limits safely,
> than I am with an ex-military pilot who sustains his ego with
> hair-raising stories of near-death and mayhem caused by poor decision
> making, an abundance of power, and an indestructible airframe.
>
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in
> need of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic
> (did I just use that word correctly Brian)
>
>
> :-) It works.
>
>
> role of "president" should end after this administration in
> favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>
>
> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA
> does well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and
> Congress, while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just
> a thought.
>
> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:13:26 AM PST US
> From: "Kregg Victory" <kregg@balancemyprop.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> I guess that means we can all pull up our pants and go home
> ...............................
>
> Kregg Victory
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 9:58 AM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> Ahmen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
> CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:02 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
> --> Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.
> Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves. I have held off on
> this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but enough is
> enough.
>
> Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous with
> RPA.
>
> So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:57
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I
> emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through,
> otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>
>
> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I am
> interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely intellectual.
> While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention is to sell it and
> eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems to come under the
> purvey of RPA.
>
>
> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both
> of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I would like
> to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard"
> (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed
> that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate
> (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive
> detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the
> material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I
> was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in
> Part I. Enough said.
>
>
> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try to
> advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and politics
> raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a no-win situation.
> But I would have undoubtedly been much much more flexible and accommodating
> had you explained then. I am no different than anyone else; when I work hard
> and do a good job, I want someone to recognize same and say, "Good job."
>
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen
> anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner,
> and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I
> suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt
> t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of
> a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA
> emails painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and
> unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've
> come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation
> organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by the
> military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical
> material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a
> qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead
> a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity on
> the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize
> "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your
> fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is
> simply this; this is your opportunity to help others.
>
>
> Spot on.
>
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about
> operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a
> lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said
> that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is
> trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that
> age old saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill
> set don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next
> RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national
> directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter, except
> ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the RPA
> functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of a
> civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or
> planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership
> services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales,
> training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>
>
> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52 (and
> similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the technology
> and operating parameters are no different than similar civilian aircraft. I
> am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as "a cut above" because we
> fly these aircraft, the reality is, these aircraft are in no way more
> difficult to fly nor do they require special procedures outside those used
> to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper, or Beechcraft. Lastly, the rules
> and airspace in which we fly are civil, not military.
>
> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what
> *would* set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that the
> answer is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and professionalism.
> To be honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a
> C-150 who knows every nut, bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and who
> has developed the skill to fly it to its absolute limits safely, than I am
> with an ex-military pilot who sustains his ego with hair-raising stories of
> near-death and mayhem caused by poor decision making, an abundance of power,
> and an indestructible airframe.
>
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need
> of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I
> just use that word correctly Brian)
>
>
> :-) It works.
>
>
> role of "president" should end after this administration in favor of
> a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>
>
> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA does
> well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and Congress,
> while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just a thought.
>
> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:08:34 PM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Barry's concerns
> From: "barryhancock" <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
>
> I remember that first MTW clinic. It remains one of my fondest flying memories.
> I still remember doing fly-bys between Bratwursts at the BBQ. I fell in love
> with formation flying and the camaraderie of guys that wanted to have fun with
> their planes at that event. I have been fortunate, especially as a civilian,
> to move through the ranks to a patched formation instructor. I have lead a
> 24 ship formation over Airventure, lead a 4-ship of F/A-18's in an L-39, and
many
> other flying accomplishments that would not have happened without my involvement
> in this community. I am grateful for all of it and the selfless hard work
> of dedicated volunteers who helped me and countless others along the way.
> And I've tried to give back as best I can.
>
> It is unfortunate that economic factors make MTW/OSH less appealing for those
far
> away. Despite the tough economic times, however, the RPA has apparently grown
> to over 500 members, and has over $20k (nearly $30k?) in the kitty. That's
> terrific. But those kind of resources demand accountability to membership.
> It begs questions that we do not have answers to: What is happening with that
> money? Is it being used to fund regional events? Create training videos? Increase
> standardization through dedicated instructor clinics (not just formation)?
> Etc., etc. What? Why? Why not?
>
> I'm told that there are approximately 130 current FAST cards in the association.
> For argument's sake let's suppose that it is actually double that. That still
> leaves 50% of the membership interested in things other than formation. Is
> the association giving them the same kind of support they are giving to the formation
> crowd? Not even close. Why? In my opinion it is due to both the culture
> that exists in leadership and by-laws that allows that culture to dominate
> (as Drew has pointed out elsewhere).
>
> To me, this is a club running under the guise of an association. I think they
> either go back to calling it a club, or run it like an association.
>
> Get involved, fellas, and at least make your voice heard. $45 may only cover
a
> 20 minute acro hop, but the value and potential of your membership goes far beyond
> that. It's up to us to make it so.
>
> Barry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362417#362417
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:25:29 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>
>
>
> Mark,
> Go figure, u and I agree on this.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 10:01 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
> 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>>
>> Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.
>> Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves. I have held off
>> on this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but
>> enough is enough.
>>
>> Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous
>> with RPA.
>>
>> So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:57
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I
>> emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through,
>> otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.
>>
>> Brian,
>>
>> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>>
>>
>> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I
>> am interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely
>> intellectual. While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention
>> is to sell it and eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems
>> to come under the purvey of RPA.
>>
>>
>> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted
>> both of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I
>> would like to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how
>> the "old guard" (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>>
>> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I
>> OKed that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically
>> accurate (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as
>> comprehensive detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can
>> imagine knew the material).
>>
>> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a
>> conversation I was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and
>> I relate to it in Part I. Enough said.
>>
>>
>> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try
>> to advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and
>> politics raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a
>> no-win situation. But I would have undoubtedly been much much more
>> flexible and accommodating had you explained then. I am no different
>> than anyone else; when I work hard and do a good job, I want someone to
>> recognize same and say, "Good job."
>>
>>
>>
>> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen
>> anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ
>> owner, and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I
>> suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an
>> attempt t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps
>> his lack of a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in
>> a flurry of RPA emails painting him in a negative light that was highly
>> short sighted and unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is
>> one of the best I've come across.
>>
>> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian*
>> aviation organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are
>> employed by the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from
>> their technical material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If
>> there is a qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief
>> a flight, lead a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman,
>> execute brevity on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public
>> speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen
>> often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all
>> military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is your opportunity to
>> help others.
>>
>>
>> Spot on.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about
>> operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came
>> from a lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer,
>> etc....Having said that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to
>> listen when someone is trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or
>> advice; it goes back to that age old saying, "park your ego at the
>> door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we...
>>
>> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the
>> next RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the
>> national directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such
>> filter, except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as
>> long as the RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good
>> stewardship of a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not
>> leading troops or planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and
>> producing membership services (websites, magazines, internet
>> newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, instructor development,
>> fly-in support, etc.)
>>
>>
>> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52
>> (and similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the
>> technology and operating parameters are no different than similar
>> civilian aircraft. I am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as
>> "a cut above" because we fly these aircraft, the reality is, these
>> aircraft are in no way more difficult to fly nor do they require special
>> procedures outside those used to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper,
>> or Beechcraft. Lastly, the rules and airspace in which we fly are civil,
>> not military.
>>
>> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what
>> *would* set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that
>> the answer is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and
>> professionalism. To be honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a
>> C-150 who knows every nut, bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and
>> who has developed the skill to fly it to its absolute limits safely,
>> than I am with an ex-military pilot who sustains his ego with
>> hair-raising stories of near-death and mayhem caused by poor decision
>> making, an abundance of power, and an indestructible airframe.
>>
>>
>>
>> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in
>> need of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic
>> (did I just use that word correctly Brian)
>>
>>
>> :-) It works.
>>
>>
>> role of "president" should end after this administration in
>> favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>>
>>
>> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
>> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA
>> does well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and
>> Congress, while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just
>> a thought.
>>
>> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
>> 3191 Western Dr.
>> Cameron Park, CA 95682
>> brian@lloyd.com
>> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
>> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:33:18 PM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "barryhancock" <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
>
> Some have commented, and I suppose many have thought, "why is a discussion about
> issues concerning the RPA on the Yak-list?"
>
> When I made the decision to write my "open letter," I wanted it-to be just that.
> Not just a letter to members (there was no forum for that, anyway), but to prospective
> members, past members, and non-members alike to address issues that
> ultimately effect every Red Star owner/operator at some level, and do it in the
> most conspicuous place possible. The Yak-List, for better or worse, is that
> place for our community.
>
> My intention was/is to raise awareness and hopefully generate discussion and
action
> on issues that are, or potentially can be, affecting ownership and operation
> in our community.
>
> I believe that this is an appropriate forum for these discussions and is well
within
> the usage guidelines.
>
> Regards,
>
> Barry
>
> --------
> Barry Hancock
> Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
> (877) 869-6458
> www.worldwidewarbirds.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362418#362418
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 01:21:00 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Barry, you don't need to mince words.
>
> I asked you to please take this discussion off the YAK-List. As a
> member of the YAK-List for over a decade, and as a financial contributor
> to it as well, I do not think the discussion of a funded and chartered
> organizations internal problems and solutions belong on the YAK-List.
>
> Every single time I have been asked to stop a discussion of something
> *I* happened to think was relevant, I have agreed to do so, and as you
> well know, I have been asked to do so more than once. Now the shoe is
> on the other foot, and I am asking you to please stop. You have used
> the YAK-List to accomplish the goal of notifying many members of the RPA
> with the problems and issues as you see them. So done is done, you have
> accomplished your goal and good ... I am glad that is the case, and you
> will please notice I did not complain about those postings.
>
> Now the discussion is moving into a history lesson of Red Star, who did
> what to who and when, and how much fun you had, or did not have in the
> past, and how you can correct that to have a good organization in the
> future. You have gone from "notification" to "history" to "problems
> with the rules and by-laws" and ..... enough already.
>
> Just because a person owns a YAK or a CJ, does not mean they should rush
> right out and become a member of Red Star, or should be treated to what
> we have been reading here of late.
>
> I am sure that some Red Star members like being able to use the YAK-List
> as their own property. I have also seen where other Red Star members
> agree that this discussion should go elsewhere.
>
> Please listen to the desires of other members of the YAK List and
> regardless of what you happen to personally think of the issue, take it
> elsewhere out of respect for the feelings of other YAK-List members.
> That is what I do, and have done when faced with the same dilemma, and I
> submit to you Sir, that it would be the right thing for you to do as
> well.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of barryhancock
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 3:29 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
>
> <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
> Some have commented, and I suppose many have thought, "why is a
> discussion about issues concerning the RPA on the Yak-list?"
>
> When I made the decision to write my "open letter," I wanted it-to be
> just that. Not just a letter to members (there was no forum for that,
> anyway), but to prospective members, past members, and non-members alike
> to address issues that ultimately effect every Red Star owner/operator
> at some level, and do it in the most conspicuous place possible. The
> Yak-List, for better or worse, is that place for our community.
>
> My intention was/is to raise awareness and hopefully generate discussion
> and action on issues that are, or potentially can be, affecting
> ownership and operation in our community.
>
> I believe that this is an appropriate forum for these discussions and is
> well within the usage guidelines.
>
> Regards,
>
> Barry
>
> --------
> Barry Hancock
> Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
> (877) 869-6458
> www.worldwidewarbirds.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362418#362418
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:30:31 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> But how do you really feel about this Mark?
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:46:08 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Oh, I simply believe that others should do the exact same thing that I
> have been asked to do in the past. :-)
>
> Meaning, I am no different than Barry. I have no moral "high ground".
> I have gotten into some discussions in the past that had no business on
> the Yak-List.
>
> In fact, more than a few. :-)
>
> But when I was asked to stop, I stopped. Even though personally I
> wanted very strongly to continue.
>
> That's how I REALLY feel about it Brian, and you just can't imagine how
> much I wanted to restart the "discussion" about Flight Suits and the RPA
> when you mentioned it... but I did not. But darn... I REALLY wanted to!
> :-)
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
>
> But how do you really feel about this Mark?
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:17:03 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
> MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>> That's how I REALLY feel about it Brian, and you just can't imagine how
>> much I wanted to restart the "discussion" about Flight Suits and the RPA
>> when you mentioned it... but I did not. But darn... I REALLY wanted to!
>> :-)
>
>
> Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a new
> and burning question for discussion. ;-)
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:42:19 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>
> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>
> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:01:28 PM PST US
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
>
> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
> Pappy
>
>
> In a message dated 1/4/2012 7:42:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>
> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>
> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:20:28 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Will MMO uncork the BOD?
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 6:57 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>
>> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
>> Pappy
>>
>> In a message dated 1/4/2012 7:42:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitte
> rlich@navy.mil writes:
> ALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>>
>> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
>> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>>
>> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
>> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
>> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
>> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
>> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER. sp; ies ay - MATRONICS WE
> B FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p;
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
>>
>
> ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:00:02 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: Gary Gabbard <ggg6@att.net>
>
> If they drink it !!!! Gary G.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 18:15, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Will MMO uncork the BOD?
>> Doc
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2012, at 6:57 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
>>> Pappy
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/4/2012 7:42:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitt
> erlich@navy.mil writes:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>>>
>>> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
>>> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>>>
>>> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
>>> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
>>> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
>>> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
>>> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER. sp; ies ay - MATRONICS W
> EB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p;
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 3D===============3
> D==============
> ==============
> 3D===============3
> D==============
> ==============
> 3D===============3
> D==============
> ==============
> 3D===============3
> D==============
> ==============
>>
>
> ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:04:20 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Oh my gosh. Good one Pappy.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Wed 1/4/2012 7:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
>
>
> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
> Pappy
>
> In a message dated 1/4/2012 7:42:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
> writes:
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>
> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>
> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER. sp; ies ay - MATRONICS WEB
FORUMS
> - List Contribution Web Site p;
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:34:08 PM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
> From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
>
>
> Anybody has ever tried one of these?
>
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
>
> Are they worth the effort and
> costs to have them equipped with
> an American GA communication system?
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:01:40 PM PST US
> From: "Sam Sax" <cd001633@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop
>
>
> A quick update on my experience with the new Whirlwind 3 blade all composite
> propeller.
>
>
> I have been flying this propeller on my M-14P powered CJ6-A for over three
> months now. Simply put - I love it!! Their first 3 blade propeller
> (wood/composite - I call it Generation 1) is still a great performing prop,
> one that I have been flying for over 10 years but this new model (Generation
> 2) takes the cake!! Mind you that I am not the engineer type and didn't
> perform a comprehensive, scientifically correct test - I am sharing with you
> my findings based on my actual hands-on experience flying it. and pardon
> me, if I sound a little over-excited.
>
> Needless to say, the new design is flat out gorgeous (in my opinion of
> course) - the large diameter of 102" and sleek, military style looks and
> large spinner really makes it perfectly proportioned for the CJ6/Yak
> aircraft.
>
>
> The first thing you'll notice, right out of the box is the amazing quality
> of Whirlwind's workmanship - that is no real surprise for anyone that is
> familiar with their work or flying the stock V-530 propeller that they
> reconditioned. The finish and attention to details is incredible.
>
>
> Naturally, I expected that this propeller would impress me on the very first
> flight as I am used to the excellent performance of their "Generation 1"
> propeller. Well, I must tell you - I was not disappointed. On takeoff, the
> acceleration was very impressive as was initial and sustained climb. One
> point I noticed right away was the near perfect balance and minimal
> vibrations through the in -flight rpm range - no dynamic balance was done at
> the time. The only rpm range with higher vibrations was from 1400 to 1700
> rpm, a range I don't spend much time in.
>
>
> On takeoff I had to push more left rudder than I was used to - I assume it's
> the greater 'P factor' effect due to the wider cord of this design. In
> cruise, the prop was smooth and response crisp at all rpm changes and flight
> attitudes. It is in the vertical axis that this propeller shines! Vertical
> penetration is noticeably better in this design as was evident to me when
> performing maneuvers like hammerheads and climbing rolls. A specific
> example: on top of a 4 G Immelman (inverted) I ended up 8 kts faster than
> before (same altitude, entry speed and G pull); again, not a scientific
> experiment - only what I've experienced...
>
>
> Another realm in which this propeller shines is Formation. I fly a lot of
> formation (when not doing acro) and really enjoy the quick acceleration when
> I change positions or if I get sucked a bit. Deceleration is amazingly
> crisp as well and very useful to me in Formation when coming in with 'gusto'
> and need to slow down fast so not to overshoot Lead - this large blade acts
> like an air brake when quickly pulling the throttle back.
>
>
> I have taken quite a few pictures ( a couple attached) and several in-flight
> videos of the prop and am working on making a short video clip that will be
> in a format of a "Product Review" and will post it on YouTube. As soon as I
> have the video ready on YouTube, I'll shoot another post to let you all know
> J
>
>
> Thanks for listening,
>
>
> Sam Sax
>
> CJ-6A
>
> Miami, FL
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:13:25 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:57 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> **
>> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
>>
>
> No, I am working on something WAAAAY better than MMO, multi-vis oil, AND
> flight suits all rolled into one! Just wait ...
>
> (hee hee hee)
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:55:17 PM PST US
> From: Kurt Howerton <grabstein@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
>
> Yup - got two. One for me and one for the wife.
>
> Oregon Aero electronics. They work great and cost less than 1/2 what I
> could find an HGU for.
>
> --
> Kurt Howerton
> W: 916.355.3968
> M: 530.312.1299
>
> Sent from my phone
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 7:37 PM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> Anybody has ever tried one of these?
>>
>> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
>>
>> Are they worth the effort and
>> costs to have them equipped with
>> an American GA communication system?
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Elmar
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:20:16 PM PST US
> From: Javier Carrasco <javiercarrascob@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
> Hi Elma,
> -
> Not sure if they are worth the effort,
> -
> For-one thing, weight, they look havy. also they look too tall, not a fit
> for our Yaks (you'll scratch the canopy).
> -
> Over three months I- bought a fiber glass HGU-33 for 300$ in perfect usab
> le condition. Also from Ebay I upgraded the cables to have a quick disconne
> ct for an extra 45$.
> -
> If you need to get off the plane in a hurry you may not have time to unplug
> the headset, so get a quick disconnet from Gibsons and Barns (or e-bay).
> -
> The lightest helmet you can get is the HGU-55. But I really can't tell the
> difference between the 2 they are really light.
> -
> My 2 cents.
> -
> Javier N54245H
> Yak-55m
>
> --- On Wed, 1/4/12, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
> Subject: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
>
>>
>
> Anybody has ever tried one of these?
>
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/
> 180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
>
> Are they worth the effort and
> costs to have them equipped with
> an American GA communication system?
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
> le, List Admin.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:20:16 PM PST US
> From: Javier Carrasco <javiercarrascob@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
> Hi Elma,
> -
> Not sure if they are worth the effort,
> -
> For-one thing, weight, they look havy. also they look too tall, not a fit
> for our Yaks (you'll scratch the canopy).
> -
> Over three months I- bought a fiber glass HGU-33 for 300$ in perfect usab
> le condition. Also from Ebay I upgraded the cables to have a quick disconne
> ct for an extra 45$.
> -
> If you need to get off the plane in a hurry you may not have time to unplug
> the headset, so get a quick disconnet from Gibsons and Barns (or e-bay).
> -
> The lightest helmet you can get is the HGU-55. But I really can't tell the
> difference between the 2 they are really light.
> -
> My 2 cents.
> -
> Javier N54245H
> Yak-55m
>
> --- On Wed, 1/4/12, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
> Subject: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
>
>>
>
> Anybody has ever tried one of these?
>
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/
> 180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
>
> Are they worth the effort and
> costs to have them equipped with
> an American GA communication system?
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
> le, List Admin.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:31:15 PM PST US
> From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop
>
> Very nice!
>
> What about the pricing? Comparable to the three-bladed MT prop? (also
> something like 102 inches).
>
>
> Jan
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Sax
> Sent: donderdag 5 januari 2012 4:58
> Subject: Yak-List: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop
>
>
> A quick update on my experience with the new Whirlwind 3 blade all composite
> propeller.
>
>
> I have been flying this propeller on my M-14P powered CJ6-A for over three
> months now. Simply put - I love it!! Their first 3 blade propeller
> (wood/composite - I call it Generation 1) is still a great performing prop,
> one that I have been flying for over 10 years but this new model (Generation
> 2) takes the cake!! Mind you that I am not the engineer type and didn't
> perform a comprehensive, scientifically correct test - I am sharing with you
> my findings based on my actual hands-on experience flying it. and pardon
> me, if I sound a little over-excited.
>
> Needless to say, the new design is flat out gorgeous (in my opinion of
> course) - the large diameter of 102" and sleek, military style looks and
> large spinner really makes it perfectly proportioned for the CJ6/Yak
> aircraft.
>
>
> The first thing you'll notice, right out of the box is the amazing quality
> of Whirlwind's workmanship - that is no real surprise for anyone that is
> familiar with their work or flying the stock V-530 propeller that they
> reconditioned. The finish and attention to details is incredible.
>
>
> Naturally, I expected that this propeller would impress me on the very first
> flight as I am used to the excellent performance of their "Generation 1"
> propeller. Well, I must tell you - I was not disappointed. On takeoff, the
> acceleration was very impressive as was initial and sustained climb. One
> point I noticed right away was the near perfect balance and minimal
> vibrations through the in -flight rpm range - no dynamic balance was done at
> the time. The only rpm range with higher vibrations was from 1400 to 1700
> rpm, a range I don't spend much time in.
>
>
> On takeoff I had to push more left rudder than I was used to - I assume it's
> the greater 'P factor' effect due to the wider cord of this design. In
> cruise, the prop was smooth and response crisp at all rpm changes and flight
> attitudes. It is in the vertical axis that this propeller shines! Vertical
> penetration is noticeably better in this design as was evident to me when
> performing maneuvers like hammerheads and climbing rolls. A specific
> example: on top of a 4 G Immelman (inverted) I ended up 8 kts faster than
> before (same altitude, entry speed and G pull); again, not a scientific
> experiment - only what I've experienced...
>
>
> Another realm in which this propeller shines is Formation. I fly a lot of
> formation (when not doing acro) and really enjoy the quick acceleration when
> I change positions or if I get sucked a bit. Deceleration is amazingly
> crisp as well and very useful to me in Formation when coming in with 'gusto'
> and need to slow down fast so not to overshoot Lead - this large blade acts
> like an air brake when quickly pulling the throttle back.
>
>
> I have taken quite a few pictures ( a couple attached) and several in-flight
> videos of the prop and am working on making a short video clip that will be
> in a format of a "Product Review" and will post it on YouTube. As soon as I
> have the video ready on YouTube, I'll shoot another post to let you all know
> J
>
>
> Thanks for listening,
>
>
> Sam Sax
>
> CJ-6A
>
> Miami, FL
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:42:27 PM PST US
> From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
> Subject: Yak-List: Calculation of C of G in percentage MAC
>
> I have to make a weight report of my Yak 50.
>
>
> No big deal calculating the C of G, once the plane has been put onto
> balances.
>
>
> But what I also need is a conversion to % MAC and I don't have the exact
> position of the 0 % MAC.
>
>
> The Russians published an MAC of 1,64 meters for the Yak 50.
>
>
> I know the methods to calculate the MAC, but it's quite a job.
>
>
> Just hoping that someone more knowledgeable than I already has done it?
>
>
> There are several spreadsheets circulating on the Internet but as you could
> expect, they do not agree .
>
>
> BR,
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 27 Msgs - 01/04/12 |
I purchased one a couple of years ago, fitted it with ANR, modified the ear cups,
and added padding/spacers between the ear cups and helmet, so I could hear.
It has worked well.
The only problem is the helmet is made of hard fiberglass and expands very little
when trying to pull over your head.
Also, if the ear cups don't have enough spacer thickness , then it will be noisy,
even with the ANR.
I do like the built in visor and it comes with clear and tinted shields. The helmets
are a little uncomfortable, but you get used to it. I have an ANR problem
at the moment and am using an alternate headset.
Garry
N92864
M14-P
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 5, 2012, at 3:00 AM, Yak-List Digest Server <yak-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete Yak-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
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> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 12-01-04&Archive=Yak
>
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>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Yak-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Wed 01/04/12: 27
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 05:48 AM - ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Drew B)
> 2. 06:27 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Richard Hess)
> 3. 06:56 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Kurt Howerton)
> 4. 08:00 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Brian Lloyd)
> 5. 09:53 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 6. 10:03 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (George Coy)
> 7. 10:13 AM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Kregg Victory)
> 8. 12:08 PM - Re: Barry's concerns (barryhancock)
> 9. 12:25 PM - Re: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms (Bill Geipel)
> 10. 12:33 PM - RPA discussions on the Yak-list (barryhancock)
> 11. 01:21 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 12. 03:30 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Brian Lloyd)
> 13. 03:46 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 14. 04:17 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Brian Lloyd)
> 15. 04:42 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 16. 05:01 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (cjpilot710@aol.com)
> 17. 06:20 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Roger Kemp M.D.)
> 18. 07:00 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Gary Gabbard)
> 19. 07:04 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV
Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
> 20. 07:34 PM - Chinese Flight Helmets (Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer)
> 21. 08:01 PM - Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop (Sam Sax)
> 22. 08:13 PM - Re: RPA discussions on the Yak-list (Brian Lloyd)
> 23. 08:55 PM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Kurt Howerton)
> 24. 09:20 PM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Javier Carrasco)
> 25. 09:20 PM - Re: Chinese Flight Helmets (Javier Carrasco)
> 26. 11:31 PM - Re: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop (Jan Mevis)
> 27. 11:42 PM - Calculation of C of G in percentage MAC (Jan Mevis)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:48:55 AM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed with
> our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise folks
> may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list, while I can not
> recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of your basic concerns
> you posted about your contribution, and I would like to go on the record
> now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard" (your descriptor)
> was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at
> ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while
> the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive
> detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the
> material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was
> not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in
> Part I. Enough said.
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere in
> the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and huge
> volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his
> proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your
> organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military
> aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails
> painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and
> unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've
> come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation
> organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by
> the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical
> material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a
> qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead
> a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity
> on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize
> "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your
> fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is
> simply this; this is your opportunity to help others.
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating
> in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer,
> general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you,
> me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help
> us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old
> saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set
> don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA
> president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national
> directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter,
> except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the
> RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of
> a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or
> planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership
> services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales,
> training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of the
> BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just use
> that word correctly Brian) role of "president" should end after this
> administration in favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from
> that Board.
>
>
> --
> *Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!*
> *(ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)*
> *
> *
> *
> *
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:27:42 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: Richard Hess <hess737@aol.com>
>
>
> Drew,
> Thanks for all the info. I would like to piggyback on your comment about it
> being a civilian organization as it relates to the tactical comments from
> some earlier posts.
>
> I may have been one of the first to question us doing tactical events. I ha
> d a near miss doing one of these exercises at Waycross a few years ago. It
> sobered me as to the risks and made me question what the organization itsel
> f should be endorsing.
>
> I also flew in a 24-ship at Oshkosh some years ago. High winds and an overw
> orked airboss made for a less than pleasant experience. Again, I began to q
> uestion what we are doing as an organization.
>
> My company does lots of maintenance and training for some third world air f
> orces. We in essense have a contract with the US State Dept. They control w
> hat we are approved to do. Much of what we freely share at RPA and CJAA I a
> m prohibited from teaching overseas. Interesting, eh?
>
> My point is that we have a very wide variety of experience levels in our co
> mmunity. Some of us have done all the tactical stuff in our previous lives,
> some have not. I believe an individual instructor should choose what level
> to teach someone based on that person's skills, experience, and desires. F
> ormation and tactical flying makes you a better pilot, period.
>
> However, the emphasis should be on basics. A guy who can barely hang on the
> wing in 2 or 4-ship has no business being in a 24-ship. A guy who can't do
> extended trail without parking in the lead's six and sucking up his wake t
> urbulence has no business doing tactical maneuvering.
>
> Everyone can and should strive for perfection in the basics and then contin
> ue to practice and learn new things. However, there is a real risk to RPA p
> ublishing and endorsing high level activities. I promise any accident can a
> nd will come back to bite us. I believe we can deal with this kind of activ
> ity on a local level.
>
> Anyway, sorry for being long winded but I love you guys and this flying so
> much that I hate to see safety being compromised in any way. What we do is
> already a high risk activity. It is up to us to manage that risk so that we
> have the pleasure of this privilege for a long time to come.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Richard Hess
> C 404-964-4885
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wed, Jan 4, 2012 8:49 am
> Subject: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed with
> our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise folks m
> ay get frustrated and give up.
>
>
> Brian,
>
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list, while I can not reca
> ll all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of your basic concerns you
> posted about your contribution, and I would like to go on the record now,
> again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard" (your descriptor) was r
> eacting to you.
>
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at A
> RS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while th
> e content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive detailed
> as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the material).
>
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was no
> t comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in Part
> I. Enough said.
>
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere in
> the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and huge
> volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his procliv
> ity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your organi
> zation function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military aviato
> rs credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails painting
> him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and unwarranted. His
> attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've come across.
>
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation organiz
> ation. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by the milit
> ary and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical material (i
> .e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a qualitative differe
> nce in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead a flight, demonstr
> ate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity on the radio in for
> mation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in
> or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all*
> this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is
> your opportunity to help others.
>
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating i
> n the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer, ge
> neral contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you, m
> e and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help u
> s with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old saying
> , "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we
> ...
>
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA pre
> sident should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national directors
> that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter, except ones de
> sire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the RPA functions u
> nder effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of a civilian orga
> nization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or planes in to b
> attle, we are developing, managing and producing membership services (websi
> tes, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, i
> nstructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of the
> BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just use
> that word correctly Brian) role of "president" should end after this admin
> istration in favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Bo
> ard.
>
>
> --
> Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!
> (ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)
>
>
> -= - The Yak-List Email Forum -
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>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:56:23 AM PST US
> From: Kurt Howerton <grabstein@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
> All -
>
> The key to the RPA forums is to be logged in to the RPA site before
> choosing "forums" on the "members" menu. The integration is a bit clunky
> and you may have to pick the menu item again, although it seems to work
> fine most of the time.
>
> Like everyone else, I have limited time to volunteer to this. Don't wait
> for it to be perfect.
>
> --
> Kurt Howerton
> W: 916.355.3968
> M: 530.312.1299
>
> Sent from my phone
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 5:54 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed with
> our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise folks
> may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list, while I can not
> recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of your basic concerns
> you posted about your contribution, and I would like to go on the record
> now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard" (your descriptor)
> was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at
> ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while
> the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive
> detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the
> material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was
> not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in
> Part I. Enough said.
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere in
> the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and huge
> volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his
> proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your
> organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military
> aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails
> painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and
> unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've
> come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation
> organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by
> the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical
> material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a
> qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead
> a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity
> on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize
> "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your
> fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is
> simply this; this is your opportunity to help others.
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating
> in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer,
> general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you,
> me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help
> us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old
> saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set
> don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA
> president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national
> directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter,
> except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the
> RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of
> a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or
> planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership
> services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales,
> training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of the
> BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just use
> that word correctly Brian) role of "president" should end after this
> administration in favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from
> that Board.
>
>
> --
> *Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!*
> *(ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)*
> *
> *
> *
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:00:21 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I emailed
>> with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through, otherwise
>> folks may get frustrated and give up.
>>
>> Brian,
>>
>> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>>
>
> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I am
> interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely intellectual.
> While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention is to sell it and
> eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems to come under the
> purvey of RPA.
>
>
>> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both of
>> your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I would like to
>> go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard"
>> (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>>
>> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed that at
>> ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate (while
>> the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive
>> detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the
>> material).
>>
>> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I was
>> not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in
>> Part I. Enough said.
>>
>
> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try to
> advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and politics
> raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a no-win situation.
> But I would have undoubtedly been much much more flexible and accommodating
> had you explained then. I am no different than anyone else; when I work
> hard and do a good job, I want someone to recognize same and say, "Good
> job."
>
>
>> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen anywhere
>> in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner, and
>> huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I suspect) his
>> proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt t make your
>> organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of a military
>> aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA emails
>> painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and
>> unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've
>> come across.
>>
>> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation
>> organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by
>> the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical
>> material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a
>> qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead
>> a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity
>> on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize
>> "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your
>> fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is
>> simply this; this is your opportunity to help others.
>>
>
> Spot on.
>
>
>>
>> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about operating
>> in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a lawyer,
>> general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said that, you,
>> me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is trying to help
>> us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that age old
>> saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill set
>> don't we...
>>
>> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next RPA
>> president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national
>> directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter,
>> except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the
>> RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of
>> a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or
>> planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership
>> services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales,
>> training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>>
>
> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52
> (and similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the
> technology and operating parameters are no different than similar civilian
> aircraft. I am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as "a cut
> above" because we fly these aircraft, the reality is, these aircraft are in
> no way more difficult to fly nor do they require special procedures outside
> those used to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper, or Beechcraft.
> Lastly, the rules and airspace in which we fly are civil, not military.
>
> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what *would*
> set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that the answer
> is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and professionalism. To be
> honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a C-150 who knows every nut,
> bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and who has developed the skill to
> fly it to its absolute limits safely, than I am with an ex-military pilot
> who sustains his ego with hair-raising stories of near-death and mayhem
> caused by poor decision making, an abundance of power, and
> an indestructible airframe.
>
>
>>
>> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need of
>> the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I just
>> use that word correctly Brian)
>>
>
> :-) It works.
>
>
>> role of "president" should end after this administration in favor of a
>> Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>>
>
> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA does
> well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and Congress,
> while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just a thought.
>
> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:53:23 AM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.
> Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves. I have held off
> on this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but
> enough is enough.
>
> Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous
> with RPA.
>
> So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:57
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I
> emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through,
> otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>
>
> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I
> am interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely
> intellectual. While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention
> is to sell it and eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems
> to come under the purvey of RPA.
>
>
> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted
> both of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I
> would like to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how
> the "old guard" (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I
> OKed that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically
> accurate (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as
> comprehensive detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can
> imagine knew the material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a
> conversation I was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and
> I relate to it in Part I. Enough said.
>
>
> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try
> to advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and
> politics raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a
> no-win situation. But I would have undoubtedly been much much more
> flexible and accommodating had you explained then. I am no different
> than anyone else; when I work hard and do a good job, I want someone to
> recognize same and say, "Good job."
>
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen
> anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ
> owner, and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I
> suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an
> attempt t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps
> his lack of a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in
> a flurry of RPA emails painting him in a negative light that was highly
> short sighted and unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is
> one of the best I've come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian*
> aviation organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are
> employed by the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from
> their technical material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If
> there is a qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief
> a flight, lead a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman,
> execute brevity on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public
> speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen
> often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all
> military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is your opportunity to
> help others.
>
>
> Spot on.
>
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about
> operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came
> from a lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer,
> etc....Having said that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to
> listen when someone is trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or
> advice; it goes back to that age old saying, "park your ego at the
> door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the
> next RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the
> national directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such
> filter, except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as
> long as the RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good
> stewardship of a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not
> leading troops or planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and
> producing membership services (websites, magazines, internet
> newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, instructor development,
> fly-in support, etc.)
>
>
> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52
> (and similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the
> technology and operating parameters are no different than similar
> civilian aircraft. I am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as
> "a cut above" because we fly these aircraft, the reality is, these
> aircraft are in no way more difficult to fly nor do they require special
> procedures outside those used to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper,
> or Beechcraft. Lastly, the rules and airspace in which we fly are civil,
> not military.
>
> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what
> *would* set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that
> the answer is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and
> professionalism. To be honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a
> C-150 who knows every nut, bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and
> who has developed the skill to fly it to its absolute limits safely,
> than I am with an ex-military pilot who sustains his ego with
> hair-raising stories of near-death and mayhem caused by poor decision
> making, an abundance of power, and an indestructible airframe.
>
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in
> need of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic
> (did I just use that word correctly Brian)
>
>
> :-) It works.
>
>
> role of "president" should end after this administration in
> favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>
>
> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA
> does well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and
> Congress, while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just
> a thought.
>
> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:03:11 AM PST US
> From: "George Coy" <george.coy@gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> Ahmen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
> CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:02 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.
> Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves. I have held off
> on this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but
> enough is enough.
>
> Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous
> with RPA.
>
> So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:57
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I
> emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through,
> otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>
>
> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I
> am interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely
> intellectual. While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention
> is to sell it and eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems
> to come under the purvey of RPA.
>
>
> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted
> both of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I
> would like to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how
> the "old guard" (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I
> OKed that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically
> accurate (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as
> comprehensive detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can
> imagine knew the material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a
> conversation I was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and
> I relate to it in Part I. Enough said.
>
>
> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try
> to advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and
> politics raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a
> no-win situation. But I would have undoubtedly been much much more
> flexible and accommodating had you explained then. I am no different
> than anyone else; when I work hard and do a good job, I want someone to
> recognize same and say, "Good job."
>
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen
> anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ
> owner, and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I
> suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an
> attempt t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps
> his lack of a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in
> a flurry of RPA emails painting him in a negative light that was highly
> short sighted and unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is
> one of the best I've come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian*
> aviation organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are
> employed by the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from
> their technical material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If
> there is a qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief
> a flight, lead a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman,
> execute brevity on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public
> speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen
> often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all
> military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is your opportunity to
> help others.
>
>
> Spot on.
>
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about
> operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came
> from a lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer,
> etc....Having said that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to
> listen when someone is trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or
> advice; it goes back to that age old saying, "park your ego at the
> door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the
> next RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the
> national directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such
> filter, except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as
> long as the RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good
> stewardship of a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not
> leading troops or planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and
> producing membership services (websites, magazines, internet
> newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, instructor development,
> fly-in support, etc.)
>
>
> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52
> (and similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the
> technology and operating parameters are no different than similar
> civilian aircraft. I am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as
> "a cut above" because we fly these aircraft, the reality is, these
> aircraft are in no way more difficult to fly nor do they require special
> procedures outside those used to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper,
> or Beechcraft. Lastly, the rules and airspace in which we fly are civil,
> not military.
>
> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what
> *would* set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that
> the answer is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and
> professionalism. To be honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a
> C-150 who knows every nut, bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and
> who has developed the skill to fly it to its absolute limits safely,
> than I am with an ex-military pilot who sustains his ego with
> hair-raising stories of near-death and mayhem caused by poor decision
> making, an abundance of power, and an indestructible airframe.
>
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in
> need of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic
> (did I just use that word correctly Brian)
>
>
> :-) It works.
>
>
> role of "president" should end after this administration in
> favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>
>
> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA
> does well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and
> Congress, while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just
> a thought.
>
> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:13:26 AM PST US
> From: "Kregg Victory" <kregg@balancemyprop.com>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> I guess that means we can all pull up our pants and go home
> ...............................
>
> Kregg Victory
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 9:58 AM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> Ahmen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
> CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:02 PM
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
> --> Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.
> Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves. I have held off on
> this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but enough is
> enough.
>
> Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous with
> RPA.
>
> So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:57
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I
> emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through,
> otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.
>
> Brian,
>
> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>
>
> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I am
> interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely intellectual.
> While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention is to sell it and
> eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems to come under the
> purvey of RPA.
>
>
> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted both
> of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I would like
> to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how the "old guard"
> (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>
> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I OKed
> that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically accurate
> (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as comprehensive
> detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can imagine knew the
> material).
>
> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a conversation I
> was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and I relate to it in
> Part I. Enough said.
>
>
> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try to
> advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and politics
> raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a no-win situation.
> But I would have undoubtedly been much much more flexible and accommodating
> had you explained then. I am no different than anyone else; when I work hard
> and do a good job, I want someone to recognize same and say, "Good job."
>
>
> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen
> anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ owner,
> and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I
> suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an attempt
> t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps his lack of
> a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in a flurry of RPA
> emails painting him in a negative light that was highly short sighted and
> unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is one of the best I've
> come across.
>
> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian* aviation
> organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are employed by the
> military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from their technical
> material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If there is a
> qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief a flight, lead
> a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman, execute brevity on
> the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public speaking), organize
> "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen often in the RPA via your
> fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all military aviators in the RPA is
> simply this; this is your opportunity to help others.
>
>
> Spot on.
>
>
> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about
> operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came from a
> lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer, etc....Having said
> that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to listen when someone is
> trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or advice; it goes back to that
> age old saying, "park your ego at the door". We all struggle with that skill
> set don't we...
>
> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the next
> RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the national
> directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such filter, except
> ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as long as the RPA
> functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good stewardship of a
> civilian organization should be color blind. We are not leading troops or
> planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and producing membership
> services (websites, magazines, internet newsletters, clothing sales,
> training documents, instructor development, fly-in support, etc.)
>
>
> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52 (and
> similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the technology
> and operating parameters are no different than similar civilian aircraft. I
> am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as "a cut above" because we
> fly these aircraft, the reality is, these aircraft are in no way more
> difficult to fly nor do they require special procedures outside those used
> to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper, or Beechcraft. Lastly, the rules
> and airspace in which we fly are civil, not military.
>
> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what
> *would* set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that the
> answer is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and professionalism.
> To be honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a
> C-150 who knows every nut, bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and who
> has developed the skill to fly it to its absolute limits safely, than I am
> with an ex-military pilot who sustains his ego with hair-raising stories of
> near-death and mayhem caused by poor decision making, an abundance of power,
> and an indestructible airframe.
>
>
> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in need
> of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic (did I
> just use that word correctly Brian)
>
>
> :-) It works.
>
>
> role of "president" should end after this administration in favor of
> a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>
>
> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA does
> well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and Congress,
> while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just a thought.
>
> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:08:34 PM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Barry's concerns
> From: "barryhancock" <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
>
> I remember that first MTW clinic. It remains one of my fondest flying memories.
> I still remember doing fly-bys between Bratwursts at the BBQ. I fell in love
> with formation flying and the camaraderie of guys that wanted to have fun with
> their planes at that event. I have been fortunate, especially as a civilian,
> to move through the ranks to a patched formation instructor. I have lead a
> 24 ship formation over Airventure, lead a 4-ship of F/A-18's in an L-39, and
many
> other flying accomplishments that would not have happened without my involvement
> in this community. I am grateful for all of it and the selfless hard work
> of dedicated volunteers who helped me and countless others along the way.
> And I've tried to give back as best I can.
>
> It is unfortunate that economic factors make MTW/OSH less appealing for those
far
> away. Despite the tough economic times, however, the RPA has apparently grown
> to over 500 members, and has over $20k (nearly $30k?) in the kitty. That's
> terrific. But those kind of resources demand accountability to membership.
> It begs questions that we do not have answers to: What is happening with that
> money? Is it being used to fund regional events? Create training videos? Increase
> standardization through dedicated instructor clinics (not just formation)?
> Etc., etc. What? Why? Why not?
>
> I'm told that there are approximately 130 current FAST cards in the association.
> For argument's sake let's suppose that it is actually double that. That still
> leaves 50% of the membership interested in things other than formation. Is
> the association giving them the same kind of support they are giving to the formation
> crowd? Not even close. Why? In my opinion it is due to both the culture
> that exists in leadership and by-laws that allows that culture to dominate
> (as Drew has pointed out elsewhere).
>
> To me, this is a club running under the guise of an association. I think they
> either go back to calling it a club, or run it like an association.
>
> Get involved, fellas, and at least make your voice heard. $45 may only cover
a
> 20 minute acro hop, but the value and potential of your membership goes far beyond
> that. It's up to us to make it so.
>
> Barry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362417#362417
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:25:29 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
> From: Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>
>
>
> Mark,
> Go figure, u and I agree on this.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 10:01 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
> 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>>
>> Gents, putting it very simply, this discussion does not belong here.
>> Please take it off-net and keep it between yourselves. I have held off
>> on this for awhile, because ... well, I am trying to be polite, but
>> enough is enough.
>>
>> Does not matter how the YAK-List got created, it was never synonymous
>> with RPA.
>>
>> So please, ..... nicely, respectfully.... enough.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:57
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: ARS and Brian Lloyd, and RPA comms
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Drew B <dblahnick@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bill, et all: The RPA Forum has some code issues logging in, I
>> emailed with our IT guy, I would let some of this get worked through,
>> otherwise folks may get frustrated and give up.
>>
>> Brian,
>>
>> I hope you read Part I of my open letter to this list,
>>
>>
>> Drew, I read all four parts. Even though I am not now part of the RPA, I
>> am interested in what happens, even if my interest is purely
>> intellectual. While I currently have a [non-flying] CJ6A, my intention
>> is to sell it and eventually replace it with an SF-260, which also seems
>> to come under the purvey of RPA.
>>
>>
>> while I can not recall all your efforts in that letter, I noted
>> both of your basic concerns you posted about your contribution, and I
>> would like to go on the record now, again, that I was well aware of how
>> the "old guard" (your descriptor) was reacting to you.
>>
>> For the record, Brian asked to teach the ground school and I
>> OKed that at ARS, he was intelligent, highly motivated and technically
>> accurate (while the content provided via the old YPA manual was not as
>> comprehensive detailed as your current RPA material, Brian as you can
>> imagine knew the material).
>>
>> I witnessed, and was a part of (you were not Brian) a
>> conversation I was not comfortable then, or now, concerning yourself and
>> I relate to it in Part I. Enough said.
>>
>>
>> Yes, it can be tough to try to hold to the "high ground" and still try
>> to advance the goals of a group organization when personalities and
>> politics raise their ugly heads. I am sure you found yourself in a
>> no-win situation. But I would have undoubtedly been much much more
>> flexible and accommodating had you explained then. I am no different
>> than anyone else; when I work hard and do a good job, I want someone to
>> recognize same and say, "Good job."
>>
>>
>>
>> This is not a condemnation of any one person, and it can happen
>> anywhere in the RPA; As an example, I know of a highly intelligent CJ
>> owner, and huge volunteer in aviation programs outside the RPA, but (I
>> suspect) his proclivity to speak up openly about what is wrong in an
>> attempt t make your organization function better (for you), and perhaps
>> his lack of a military aviators credentials (my hunch only) resulted in
>> a flurry of RPA emails painting him in a negative light that was highly
>> short sighted and unwarranted. His attitude and motivation to learn is
>> one of the best I've come across.
>>
>> I would like to make an obvious call; this is a *civilian*
>> aviation organization. Some of the activities we do originated in/are
>> employed by the military and I'm a huge sponsor of you learning from
>> their technical material (i.e. your AF/Navy sourced RPA manual). But If
>> there is a qualitative difference in a mans (or woman) ability to brief
>> a flight, lead a flight, demonstrate situational awareness as a wingman,
>> execute brevity on the radio in formation, deliver a seminar (public
>> speaking), organize "troops" at a fly-in or any other skill sets seen
>> often in the RPA via your fly-ins, than *all* this should say to all
>> military aviators in the RPA is simply this; this is your opportunity to
>> help others.
>>
>>
>> Spot on.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, every trick and scrape of knowledge I learned about
>> operating in the civilian airspace or turning a wrench on a CJ6 came
>> from a lawyer, general contractor, dentist, flower importer,
>> etc....Having said that, you, me and everyone has to be willing to
>> listen when someone is trying to help us with a nugget of knowledge or
>> advice; it goes back to that age old saying, "park your ego at the
>> door". We all struggle with that skill set don't we...
>>
>> A recommendation was made a few years back to the BoD that the
>> next RPA president should be a military aviator, I wrote some of the
>> national directors that I disagreed, strongly. There should be NO such
>> filter, except ones desire and proposed agenda for the membership, as
>> long as the RPA functions under effective bylaws, the selection of good
>> stewardship of a civilian organization should be color blind. We are not
>> leading troops or planes in to battle, we are developing, managing and
>> producing membership services (websites, magazines, internet
>> newsletters, clothing sales, training documents, instructor development,
>> fly-in support, etc.)
>>
>>
>> I agree and I do not understand the mind set. While the CJ6A and Yak-52
>> (and similar aircraft) have been used by military organizations, the
>> technology and operating parameters are no different than similar
>> civilian aircraft. I am sure that we would like to perceive ourselves as
>> "a cut above" because we fly these aircraft, the reality is, these
>> aircraft are in no way more difficult to fly nor do they require special
>> procedures outside those used to fly aircraft produced by Cessna, Piper,
>> or Beechcraft. Lastly, the rules and airspace in which we fly are civil,
>> not military.
>>
>> So, if we are really a civil organization flying civil planes, what
>> *would* set us apart from the run-of-the-mill civil pilot? I think that
>> the answer is what you are alluding to -- skill, knowledge, and
>> professionalism. To be honest, I am more impressed by the owner of a
>> C-150 who knows every nut, bolt, rivet, and wire in his airplane, and
>> who has developed the skill to fly it to its absolute limits safely,
>> than I am with an ex-military pilot who sustains his ego with
>> hair-raising stories of near-death and mayhem caused by poor decision
>> making, an abundance of power, and an indestructible airframe.
>>
>>
>>
>> And if you read my letter on this list, our bylaws are badly in
>> need of the BoDs attention in 2012; I am now certain the anachronistic
>> (did I just use that word correctly Brian)
>>
>>
>> :-) It works.
>>
>>
>> role of "president" should end after this administration in
>> favor of a Chairman of the Board, accountable and from that Board.
>>
>>
>> And you may even want to consider structuring more on the order of a
>> confederation of active and independent local organizations. The EAA
>> does well with its mix of central presence for lobbying the FAA and
>> Congress, while the bulk of activity goes on in the local chapters. Just
>> a thought.
>>
>> And thank you for your posting Drew. I appreciate it.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
>> 3191 Western Dr.
>> Cameron Park, CA 95682
>> brian@lloyd.com
>> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
>> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:33:18 PM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "barryhancock" <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
>
> Some have commented, and I suppose many have thought, "why is a discussion about
> issues concerning the RPA on the Yak-list?"
>
> When I made the decision to write my "open letter," I wanted it-to be just that.
> Not just a letter to members (there was no forum for that, anyway), but to prospective
> members, past members, and non-members alike to address issues that
> ultimately effect every Red Star owner/operator at some level, and do it in the
> most conspicuous place possible. The Yak-List, for better or worse, is that
> place for our community.
>
> My intention was/is to raise awareness and hopefully generate discussion and
action
> on issues that are, or potentially can be, affecting ownership and operation
> in our community.
>
> I believe that this is an appropriate forum for these discussions and is well
within
> the usage guidelines.
>
> Regards,
>
> Barry
>
> --------
> Barry Hancock
> Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
> (877) 869-6458
> www.worldwidewarbirds.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362418#362418
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 01:21:00 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Barry, you don't need to mince words.
>
> I asked you to please take this discussion off the YAK-List. As a
> member of the YAK-List for over a decade, and as a financial contributor
> to it as well, I do not think the discussion of a funded and chartered
> organizations internal problems and solutions belong on the YAK-List.
>
> Every single time I have been asked to stop a discussion of something
> *I* happened to think was relevant, I have agreed to do so, and as you
> well know, I have been asked to do so more than once. Now the shoe is
> on the other foot, and I am asking you to please stop. You have used
> the YAK-List to accomplish the goal of notifying many members of the RPA
> with the problems and issues as you see them. So done is done, you have
> accomplished your goal and good ... I am glad that is the case, and you
> will please notice I did not complain about those postings.
>
> Now the discussion is moving into a history lesson of Red Star, who did
> what to who and when, and how much fun you had, or did not have in the
> past, and how you can correct that to have a good organization in the
> future. You have gone from "notification" to "history" to "problems
> with the rules and by-laws" and ..... enough already.
>
> Just because a person owns a YAK or a CJ, does not mean they should rush
> right out and become a member of Red Star, or should be treated to what
> we have been reading here of late.
>
> I am sure that some Red Star members like being able to use the YAK-List
> as their own property. I have also seen where other Red Star members
> agree that this discussion should go elsewhere.
>
> Please listen to the desires of other members of the YAK List and
> regardless of what you happen to personally think of the issue, take it
> elsewhere out of respect for the feelings of other YAK-List members.
> That is what I do, and have done when faced with the same dilemma, and I
> submit to you Sir, that it would be the right thing for you to do as
> well.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of barryhancock
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 3:29 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
>
> <bhancock@worldwidewarbirds.com>
>
> Some have commented, and I suppose many have thought, "why is a
> discussion about issues concerning the RPA on the Yak-list?"
>
> When I made the decision to write my "open letter," I wanted it-to be
> just that. Not just a letter to members (there was no forum for that,
> anyway), but to prospective members, past members, and non-members alike
> to address issues that ultimately effect every Red Star owner/operator
> at some level, and do it in the most conspicuous place possible. The
> Yak-List, for better or worse, is that place for our community.
>
> My intention was/is to raise awareness and hopefully generate discussion
> and action on issues that are, or potentially can be, affecting
> ownership and operation in our community.
>
> I believe that this is an appropriate forum for these discussions and is
> well within the usage guidelines.
>
> Regards,
>
> Barry
>
> --------
> Barry Hancock
> Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
> (877) 869-6458
> www.worldwidewarbirds.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362418#362418
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:30:31 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> But how do you really feel about this Mark?
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:46:08 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Oh, I simply believe that others should do the exact same thing that I
> have been asked to do in the past. :-)
>
> Meaning, I am no different than Barry. I have no moral "high ground".
> I have gotten into some discussions in the past that had no business on
> the Yak-List.
>
> In fact, more than a few. :-)
>
> But when I was asked to stop, I stopped. Even though personally I
> wanted very strongly to continue.
>
> That's how I REALLY feel about it Brian, and you just can't imagine how
> much I wanted to restart the "discussion" about Flight Suits and the RPA
> when you mentioned it... but I did not. But darn... I REALLY wanted to!
> :-)
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
>
> But how do you really feel about this Mark?
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:17:03 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
> MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>> That's how I REALLY feel about it Brian, and you just can't imagine how
>> much I wanted to restart the "discussion" about Flight Suits and the RPA
>> when you mentioned it... but I did not. But darn... I REALLY wanted to!
>> :-)
>
>
> Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a new
> and burning question for discussion. ;-)
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:42:19 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>
> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>
> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:01:28 PM PST US
> From: cjpilot710@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
>
> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
> Pappy
>
>
> In a message dated 1/4/2012 7:42:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>
> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>
> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:20:28 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com>
>
> Will MMO uncork the BOD?
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 6:57 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>
>> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
>> Pappy
>>
>> In a message dated 1/4/2012 7:42:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitte
> rlich@navy.mil writes:
> ALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>>
>> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
>> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>>
>> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
>> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
>> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
>> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
>> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER. sp; ies ay - MATRONICS WE
> B FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p;
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
> =========================
> ========
>>
>
> ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:00:02 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: Gary Gabbard <ggg6@att.net>
>
> If they drink it !!!! Gary G.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 18:15, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Will MMO uncork the BOD?
>> Doc
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2012, at 6:57 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
>>> Pappy
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/4/2012 7:42:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitt
> erlich@navy.mil writes:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>>>
>>> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
>>> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>>>
>>> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
>>> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
>>> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
>>> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
>>> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER. sp; ies ay - MATRONICS W
> EB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p;
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 3D===============3
> D==============
> ==============
> 3D===============3
> D==============
> ==============
> 3D===============3
> D==============
> ==============
> 3D===============3
> D==============
> ==============
>>
>
> ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:04:20 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> Oh my gosh. Good one Pappy.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of cjpilot710@aol.com
> Sent: Wed 1/4/2012 7:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
>
>
> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
> Pappy
>
> In a message dated 1/4/2012 7:42:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.bitterlich@navy.mil
> writes:
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:13 PM Brian Lloyd said:
>
> "Oh, I am sure that, if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a
> new and burning question for discussion. ;-) "
>
> And that is exactly why I am asking to please let's not go there. Let's
> PLEASE not stir this pot. PLEASE! I've looked inside Pandora's Box and
> I know what is inside, and it's getting ready to come out. Just trying
> to warn the general public. But this has already apparently cost me a
> very good friendship, so WTF, OVER. sp; ies ay - MATRONICS WEB
FORUMS
> - List Contribution Web Site p;
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:34:08 PM PST US
> Subject: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
> From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
>
>
> Anybody has ever tried one of these?
>
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
>
> Are they worth the effort and
> costs to have them equipped with
> an American GA communication system?
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:01:40 PM PST US
> From: "Sam Sax" <cd001633@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Yak-List: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop
>
>
> A quick update on my experience with the new Whirlwind 3 blade all composite
> propeller.
>
>
> I have been flying this propeller on my M-14P powered CJ6-A for over three
> months now. Simply put - I love it!! Their first 3 blade propeller
> (wood/composite - I call it Generation 1) is still a great performing prop,
> one that I have been flying for over 10 years but this new model (Generation
> 2) takes the cake!! Mind you that I am not the engineer type and didn't
> perform a comprehensive, scientifically correct test - I am sharing with you
> my findings based on my actual hands-on experience flying it. and pardon
> me, if I sound a little over-excited.
>
> Needless to say, the new design is flat out gorgeous (in my opinion of
> course) - the large diameter of 102" and sleek, military style looks and
> large spinner really makes it perfectly proportioned for the CJ6/Yak
> aircraft.
>
>
> The first thing you'll notice, right out of the box is the amazing quality
> of Whirlwind's workmanship - that is no real surprise for anyone that is
> familiar with their work or flying the stock V-530 propeller that they
> reconditioned. The finish and attention to details is incredible.
>
>
> Naturally, I expected that this propeller would impress me on the very first
> flight as I am used to the excellent performance of their "Generation 1"
> propeller. Well, I must tell you - I was not disappointed. On takeoff, the
> acceleration was very impressive as was initial and sustained climb. One
> point I noticed right away was the near perfect balance and minimal
> vibrations through the in -flight rpm range - no dynamic balance was done at
> the time. The only rpm range with higher vibrations was from 1400 to 1700
> rpm, a range I don't spend much time in.
>
>
> On takeoff I had to push more left rudder than I was used to - I assume it's
> the greater 'P factor' effect due to the wider cord of this design. In
> cruise, the prop was smooth and response crisp at all rpm changes and flight
> attitudes. It is in the vertical axis that this propeller shines! Vertical
> penetration is noticeably better in this design as was evident to me when
> performing maneuvers like hammerheads and climbing rolls. A specific
> example: on top of a 4 G Immelman (inverted) I ended up 8 kts faster than
> before (same altitude, entry speed and G pull); again, not a scientific
> experiment - only what I've experienced...
>
>
> Another realm in which this propeller shines is Formation. I fly a lot of
> formation (when not doing acro) and really enjoy the quick acceleration when
> I change positions or if I get sucked a bit. Deceleration is amazingly
> crisp as well and very useful to me in Formation when coming in with 'gusto'
> and need to slow down fast so not to overshoot Lead - this large blade acts
> like an air brake when quickly pulling the throttle back.
>
>
> I have taken quite a few pictures ( a couple attached) and several in-flight
> videos of the prop and am working on making a short video clip that will be
> in a format of a "Product Review" and will post it on YouTube. As soon as I
> have the video ready on YouTube, I'll shoot another post to let you all know
> J
>
>
> Thanks for listening,
>
>
> Sam Sax
>
> CJ-6A
>
> Miami, FL
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:13:25 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: RPA discussions on the Yak-list
> From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:57 PM, <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> **
>> HeHeHe He I get it!! You're about MMO!!!!!
>>
>
> No, I am working on something WAAAAY better than MMO, multi-vis oil, AND
> flight suits all rolled into one! Just wait ...
>
> (hee hee hee)
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:55:17 PM PST US
> From: Kurt Howerton <grabstein@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
>
> Yup - got two. One for me and one for the wife.
>
> Oregon Aero electronics. They work great and cost less than 1/2 what I
> could find an HGU for.
>
> --
> Kurt Howerton
> W: 916.355.3968
> M: 530.312.1299
>
> Sent from my phone
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2012, at 7:37 PM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> Anybody has ever tried one of these?
>>
>> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
>>
>> Are they worth the effort and
>> costs to have them equipped with
>> an American GA communication system?
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Elmar
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:20:16 PM PST US
> From: Javier Carrasco <javiercarrascob@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
> Hi Elma,
> -
> Not sure if they are worth the effort,
> -
> For-one thing, weight, they look havy. also they look too tall, not a fit
> for our Yaks (you'll scratch the canopy).
> -
> Over three months I- bought a fiber glass HGU-33 for 300$ in perfect usab
> le condition. Also from Ebay I upgraded the cables to have a quick disconne
> ct for an extra 45$.
> -
> If you need to get off the plane in a hurry you may not have time to unplug
> the headset, so get a quick disconnet from Gibsons and Barns (or e-bay).
> -
> The lightest helmet you can get is the HGU-55. But I really can't tell the
> difference between the 2 they are really light.
> -
> My 2 cents.
> -
> Javier N54245H
> Yak-55m
>
> --- On Wed, 1/4/12, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
> Subject: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
>
>>
>
> Anybody has ever tried one of these?
>
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/
> 180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
>
> Are they worth the effort and
> costs to have them equipped with
> an American GA communication system?
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
> le, List Admin.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:20:16 PM PST US
> From: Javier Carrasco <javiercarrascob@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
> Hi Elma,
> -
> Not sure if they are worth the effort,
> -
> For-one thing, weight, they look havy. also they look too tall, not a fit
> for our Yaks (you'll scratch the canopy).
> -
> Over three months I- bought a fiber glass HGU-33 for 300$ in perfect usab
> le condition. Also from Ebay I upgraded the cables to have a quick disconne
> ct for an extra 45$.
> -
> If you need to get off the plane in a hurry you may not have time to unplug
> the headset, so get a quick disconnet from Gibsons and Barns (or e-bay).
> -
> The lightest helmet you can get is the HGU-55. But I really can't tell the
> difference between the 2 they are really light.
> -
> My 2 cents.
> -
> Javier N54245H
> Yak-55m
>
> --- On Wed, 1/4/12, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer <samira.h@shaw.ca>
> Subject: Yak-List: Chinese Flight Helmets
>
>
>>
>
> Anybody has ever tried one of these?
>
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Jet-Pilot-Flight-Open-Motorcycle-Black-Helmet-Mask-/
> 180643539958?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&hash=item2a0f31abf6
>
> Are they worth the effort and
> costs to have them equipped with
> an American GA communication system?
>
> cheers
>
> Elmar
>
>
> le, List Admin.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:31:15 PM PST US
> From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop
>
> Very nice!
>
> What about the pricing? Comparable to the three-bladed MT prop? (also
> something like 102 inches).
>
>
> Jan
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Sax
> Sent: donderdag 5 januari 2012 4:58
> Subject: Yak-List: Update on My New Whirlwind 3 Blade Prop
>
>
> A quick update on my experience with the new Whirlwind 3 blade all composite
> propeller.
>
>
> I have been flying this propeller on my M-14P powered CJ6-A for over three
> months now. Simply put - I love it!! Their first 3 blade propeller
> (wood/composite - I call it Generation 1) is still a great performing prop,
> one that I have been flying for over 10 years but this new model (Generation
> 2) takes the cake!! Mind you that I am not the engineer type and didn't
> perform a comprehensive, scientifically correct test - I am sharing with you
> my findings based on my actual hands-on experience flying it. and pardon
> me, if I sound a little over-excited.
>
> Needless to say, the new design is flat out gorgeous (in my opinion of
> course) - the large diameter of 102" and sleek, military style looks and
> large spinner really makes it perfectly proportioned for the CJ6/Yak
> aircraft.
>
>
> The first thing you'll notice, right out of the box is the amazing quality
> of Whirlwind's workmanship - that is no real surprise for anyone that is
> familiar with their work or flying the stock V-530 propeller that they
> reconditioned. The finish and attention to details is incredible.
>
>
> Naturally, I expected that this propeller would impress me on the very first
> flight as I am used to the excellent performance of their "Generation 1"
> propeller. Well, I must tell you - I was not disappointed. On takeoff, the
> acceleration was very impressive as was initial and sustained climb. One
> point I noticed right away was the near perfect balance and minimal
> vibrations through the in -flight rpm range - no dynamic balance was done at
> the time. The only rpm range with higher vibrations was from 1400 to 1700
> rpm, a range I don't spend much time in.
>
>
> On takeoff I had to push more left rudder than I was used to - I assume it's
> the greater 'P factor' effect due to the wider cord of this design. In
> cruise, the prop was smooth and response crisp at all rpm changes and flight
> attitudes. It is in the vertical axis that this propeller shines! Vertical
> penetration is noticeably better in this design as was evident to me when
> performing maneuvers like hammerheads and climbing rolls. A specific
> example: on top of a 4 G Immelman (inverted) I ended up 8 kts faster than
> before (same altitude, entry speed and G pull); again, not a scientific
> experiment - only what I've experienced...
>
>
> Another realm in which this propeller shines is Formation. I fly a lot of
> formation (when not doing acro) and really enjoy the quick acceleration when
> I change positions or if I get sucked a bit. Deceleration is amazingly
> crisp as well and very useful to me in Formation when coming in with 'gusto'
> and need to slow down fast so not to overshoot Lead - this large blade acts
> like an air brake when quickly pulling the throttle back.
>
>
> I have taken quite a few pictures ( a couple attached) and several in-flight
> videos of the prop and am working on making a short video clip that will be
> in a format of a "Product Review" and will post it on YouTube. As soon as I
> have the video ready on YouTube, I'll shoot another post to let you all know
> J
>
>
> Thanks for listening,
>
>
> Sam Sax
>
> CJ-6A
>
> Miami, FL
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:42:27 PM PST US
> From: "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis@informavia.be>
> Subject: Yak-List: Calculation of C of G in percentage MAC
>
> I have to make a weight report of my Yak 50.
>
>
> No big deal calculating the C of G, once the plane has been put onto
> balances.
>
>
> But what I also need is a conversion to % MAC and I don't have the exact
> position of the 0 % MAC.
>
>
> The Russians published an MAC of 1,64 meters for the Yak 50.
>
>
> I know the methods to calculate the MAC, but it's quite a job.
>
>
> Just hoping that someone more knowledgeable than I already has done it?
>
>
> There are several spreadsheets circulating on the Internet but as you could
> expect, they do not agree .
>
>
> BR,
>
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 38
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Send the Sergeant my regards and my thanks. (And we fuss about silly
things like flight suits).
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
(Oh the year is young)
In a message dated 1/5/2012 9:18:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil writes:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Having absolutely nothing to do with YAKS or CJ's .... but I thought some
folks might enjoy this.
Sent from a young Marine SSgt in Bagram Afghanistan:
________________________________
From: SSgt USMC AFCENT
Sent: Thu 1/5/2012 1:29 PM
Subject: RE:
8 inches on the ground right now, calling for 6-8 more tonight and another
4-6 tomorrow night. Jesus, is correct, everything is covered in
snow.....Having to trudge through it back and forth to work and living
quarters. Thank Heavens I brought thermal, water proof socks before I
came out here
last time and brought them with me this time.....
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? |
Hit one in the jet. One in the 52 and one in the 50. I've had my three!
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 5, 2012, at 4:33 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net> wrote:
> Beautiful.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> On Jan 5, 2012, at 2:48 PM, "George Coy" <george.coy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Speaking of bird strikes, In my 17000+ hrs in small piston aircraft I onl
y had one bird strike. Unfortunately, the bird was sitting in his nest in a t
ree at the time. Fortunately his tree helped slow things down so we met the g
round, we did not even get a stiff neck out of it.
>>
>> George
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Helmets -Why use one? |
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc@mindspring.com>wrote:
> Hit one in the jet. One in the 52 and one in the 50. I've had my three!
>
Only two for me but one came within inches of totaling the airplane ... and
I didn't even know it had happened. It happened at night right at rotation
and the noise and vibration at transition masked the sound of the impact. I
didn't even know the aircraft was damaged until I got to my destination.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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