Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:50 AM - Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 (Harv)
2. 06:39 AM - Re: Practical aspects of Exhibition category (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 07:21 AM - Re: Practical aspects of Exhibition category (Javier Carrasco)
4. 07:25 AM - Re: Practical aspects of Exhibition category (Jon Boede)
5. 07:26 AM - Re: Practical aspects of Exhibition category (bill wade)
6. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
7. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
8. 09:07 AM - Re: Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 (Walter Lannon)
9. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 (Byron Fox)
10. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
11. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 (Dave Laird)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 |
Chaps
I also wonder what whould happen with no flapper valves :) (would the problem go
away)?
I have an untested idea...
Whilst we have a comparison to the Cessna 152 fuel vent......
An observation I made the other day is that the style of fuel vent on the Cessna
differs from the CJ in how it termiates under the aircraft. The Cessna vent
is bent into wind like this "J" and the CJ one terminates straight down like this
"I".
I would think that the Cessna 'bent vent pipe' will have air forced into it during
normal flight and will result in a positive pressure in the fuel tanks (provided
the vent tubes are clear) but the CJ 'straight vent pipe' will have air
passing over the tube which will create a suction or a vacuum in the tanks.
Anyone care to try a "bent into wind vent pipe" mod to the CJ and see if the imbalance
improves?
Rgs
Harv
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363037#363037
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Practical aspects of Exhibition category |
Yep! At an air show we were attending. (Waivered airspace). The FAA
didn't ask whether we were participating in the show, such as fly-bys or
formation flights either. We could have been just static display. We
were participating in formation flights. As soon as I parked the
airplane on the ramp and before I had time to exit the cockpit, an FAA
inspector and 2 others from the FAA (badges were displayed), were at the
airplane asking for the Airworthiness Certificate, Registration, W&B,
O/L's, Current Program Letter showing this event, Pilot's certificate
and current medical and FAST card. I had my Program Letter, BUT not
the update showing the event. I was told to send it to them the on
Monday, which I did. I thought (at that time the 300 NM Proficiency
Area was still in effect), if the airshow was within my 300 NM
proficiency area I didn't have to have an update to the Program Letter.
I was mistaken. I did have to have an update. In accordance with the
operating limitations, a copy of the current program letter AND any
updates are to be carried in the airplane at all times along with the
Operating Limitations.
One of my friends was not so lucky. He did not have all of his
paperwork and they wouldn't let him fly in the airshow fly-by's. In
fact, they grounded the airplane right there and did not let the
airplane leave the ramp until all the proper paperwork was presented.
The guy had to rent a car, drive home, pick up the missing aircraft
paperwork, drive back and show the paperwork to the FAA inspector before
they would let the airplane leave the ramp.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 1/10/2012 8:31 PM, Bill Geipel wrote:
> Never
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2012, at 7:36 PM, "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@gmail.com
> <mailto:tedwaltman@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Re "Experimental, Exhibition," I know that Operating Limitations only
>> list the home airport and sometimes an alternate airport "...for
>> maintenance." What's practical though in terms of flying with your
>> buddies to a nearby airport for the $100 breakfast or to a friend's
>> airport for a visit? Yes, such is not a "...exhibition, fly-in,
>> airshow, ..." but has anyone EVER been "busted" for landing at other
>> than their home airport?
>>
>> Has anyone ever been hassled for stopping for fuel somewhere within
>> their proficiency area (or at other than their home airport) when not
>> in route to an event listed in their program letter?
>>
>> Heck, has anyone ever even had to show their program letter to
>> authorities (as part of a ramp check, for example)?
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>> Ted
>>
>> *
>>
>> ==================================
>> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==================================
>> cs.com
>> ==================================
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> ==================================
>>
>> *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Practical aspects of Exhibition category |
Yes,
-
I got ramp checked in my first airshow, just as I arrived;-the FAA inspec
tor liked my plane a lot and had a lot of flattering comments, but he meant
business, he checked all of my paper work and asked me about my routine.
-
JC
--- On Tue, 1/10/12, Ted Waltman <tedwaltman@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Ted Waltman <tedwaltman@gmail.com>
Subject: Yak-List: Practical aspects of Exhibition category
Re "Experimental, Exhibition," I know that Operating Limitations only list
the home airport and sometimes an alternate airport "...for maintenance."
- What's practical though in terms of flying with your buddies to a nearb
y airport for the $100 breakfast or to a friend's airport for a visit?- Y
es, such is not a "...exhibition, fly-in, airshow, ..." but has anyone EVER
been "busted" for landing at other than their home airport?
-
Has anyone ever been hassled for stopping for fuel somewhere within their p
roficiency area (or at other than their home airport) when not in route to
an event listed in their program letter?
-
Heck, has anyone ever even had to show their program letter to authorities
(as part of a ramp check, for example)?
-
Thank you!
-
Ted
Message 4
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| Subject: | Practical aspects of Exhibition category |
The nutty thing on the Annual Program Letter is that it can be amended at a
ny time... and the FAA doesn't have to APPROVE or even ACKNOWLEDGE RECEIPT
of the amendment. You could=2C in theory=2C amend your annual program lett
er from your iPhone whilst you were on Short Final.
I think the FAA finally eliminated the proficiency areas because they were
asked to demonstrate how said areas were contributing to the safety of the
public -- a task which was proving problematic.
> Date: Wed=2C 11 Jan 2012 08:37:06 -0600
> From: dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Practical aspects of Exhibition category
>
outh.net>
>
> Yep! At an air show we were attending. (Waivered airspace). The FAA
> didn't ask whether we were participating in the show=2C such as fly-bys o
r
> formation flights either. We could have been just static display. We
> were participating in formation flights. As soon as I parked the
> airplane on the ramp and before I had time to exit the cockpit=2C an FAA
> inspector and 2 others from the FAA (badges were displayed)=2C were at th
e
> airplane asking for the Airworthiness Certificate=2C Registration=2C W&B
=2C
> O/L's=2C Current Program Letter showing this event=2C Pilot's certificate
> and current medical and FAST card. I had my Program Letter=2C BUT not
> the update showing the event. I was told to send it to them the on
> Monday=2C which I did. I thought (at that time the 300 NM Proficiency
> Area was still in effect)=2C if the airshow was within my 300 NM
> proficiency area I didn't have to have an update to the Program Letter.
> I was mistaken. I did have to have an update. In accordance with the
> operating limitations=2C a copy of the current program letter AND any
> updates are to be carried in the airplane at all times along with the
> Operating Limitations.
>
> One of my friends was not so lucky. He did not have all of his
> paperwork and they wouldn't let him fly in the airshow fly-by's. In
> fact=2C they grounded the airplane right there and did not let the
> airplane leave the ramp until all the proper paperwork was presented.
> The guy had to rent a car=2C drive home=2C pick up the missing aircraft
> paperwork=2C drive back and show the paperwork to the FAA inspector befor
e
> they would let the airplane leave the ramp.
> Dennis
>
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263
> 334-546-8182 (cell)
> Skype: Yakguy1
> www.yak-52.com
>
>
> On 1/10/2012 8:31 PM=2C Bill Geipel wrote:
> > Never
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 10=2C 2012=2C at 7:36 PM=2C "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@gmail.com
> > <mailto:tedwaltman@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> Re "Experimental=2C Exhibition=2C" I know that Operating Limitations o
nly
> >> list the home airport and sometimes an alternate airport "...for
> >> maintenance." What's practical though in terms of flying with your
> >> buddies to a nearby airport for the $100 breakfast or to a friend's
> >> airport for a visit? Yes=2C such is not a "...exhibition=2C fly-in=2C
> >> airshow=2C ..." but has anyone EVER been "busted" for landing at other
> >> than their home airport?
> >>
> >> Has anyone ever been hassled for stopping for fuel somewhere within
> >> their proficiency area (or at other than their home airport) when not
> >> in route to an event listed in their program letter?
> >>
> >> Heck=2C has anyone ever even had to show their program letter to
> >> authorities (as part of a ramp check=2C for example)?
> >>
> >> Thank you!
> >>
> >> Ted
> >>
> >> *
> >>
> >> =======================
===========
> >> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> >> =======================
===========
> >> cs.com
> >> =======================
===========
> >> matronics.com/contribution
> >> =======================
===========
> >>
> >> *
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Practical aspects of Exhibition category |
Yup Reading PA Airshow the inspector found the airplane was not registered
(paper work held up in-Oklahoma) and grounded me, he was very cordial and
allowed me to fly the airplane home with a ferry permit then the fun began
(dealing with the FAA) had to hand it over to my wife. Any airshow that yo
u are going to fly in will want all the paperwork. Had a ramp inspection in
NJ on my way to Georgetown MD for Formation school. Also had a run-in with
the FAA over low flight and acro but they didn't want to see my papers tha
t time, just wanted my licenses, FAA ain't they great!=0A-=0ABill Wade=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ted Waltman <tedwaltman@gmai
l.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 8:36
PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Practical aspects of Exhibition category=0A=0A=0AR
e "Experimental, Exhibition," I know that Operating Limitations only list t
he home airport and sometimes an alternate airport "...for maintenance."-
What's practical though in terms of flying with your buddies to a nearby a
irport for the $100 breakfast or to a friend's airport for a visit?- Yes,
such is not a "...exhibition, fly-in, airshow, ..." but has anyone EVER be
en "busted" for landing at other than their home airport?=0A-=0AHas anyon
e ever been hassled for stopping for fuel somewhere within their proficienc
y area (or at other than their home airport) when not in route to an event
listed in their program letter?=0A-=0AHeck, has anyone ever even had to s
how their program letter to authorities (as part of a ramp check, for examp
========================
========================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 |
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:16 PM, Dave Laird <dave@davelaird.com> wrote:
>
> Walt... what would happen with NO flapper valves on the header tank...?
>
Fuel would flow from the high tank, through the header tank, and out to the
low tank. This would cause the imbalance to develop twice as quickly and/or
be twice as bad. (Well, not twice because it is possible to feed fuel
faster than to have it flow back out to a tank -- head pressure and pump
draw.) The flapper valves are a good idea, if they are working properly.
The trick is making sure that they are always working properly.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 |
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 4:46 AM, Harv <martin.harvey@kbr.com> wrote:
>
> Chaps
>
> I also wonder what whould happen with no flapper valves :) (would the
> problem go away)?
>
> I have an untested idea...
>
>
> Whilst we have a comparison to the Cessna 152 fuel vent......
>
> An observation I made the other day is that the style of fuel vent on the
> Cessna differs from the CJ in how it termiates under the aircraft. The
> Cessna vent is bent into wind like this "J" and the CJ one terminates
> straight down like this "I".
>
They both accomplish the same thing. The vent in the belly of the CJ is in
a high-pressure area. The Cessna vent is on the lower side of the wing
(high pressure) and it is a pitot tube so it gains from dynamic pressure.
The key is that both pressurize the tank above ambient pressure insuring
positive flow.
>
> I would think that the Cessna 'bent vent pipe' will have air forced into
> it during normal flight and will result in a positive pressure in the fuel
> tanks (provided the vent tubes are clear) but the CJ 'straight vent pipe'
> will have air passing over the tube which will create a suction or a vacuum
> in the tanks.
>
Well, flow is not really an issue for the belly vent because the vent is in
the boundary layer and there really isn't any flow to produce a pressure
reduction. And it is a high pressure area.
> Anyone care to try a "bent into wind vent pipe" mod to the CJ and see if
> the imbalance improves?
>
It probably wouldn't help that much, if at all. I suspect that Bushi Cheng
and friends took all this into account.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 |
Hi Dave;
The flapper valves are necessary to ensure there is always a supply of fuel
in the header tank. Without them fuel would move from one tank to the other
with yaw, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Laird" <dave@davelaird.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6
>
> Walt... what would happen with NO flapper valves on the header tank...?
>
> Dave Laird
> N63536 1983 CJ6A "Betty"
> Dallas * Austin
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 |
Just had a call from Craig Ekberg with the following he asked me to post:
"The CJ's single fuel vent tube on the left side of the fuselage comes from the
factory with its end cut at a 45 degree angle facing forward into the slipstream
. This pressurizes the vent line and the tanks. Consequently, because of proximity,
the left tank more so than the right. Net, net, net the left tank feeds
more rapidly than the right. The solution is simple. Trim the end of the
vent tube to 90 degrees. It's still vents, but no longer pressurizes. I did this
to my CJ and many others for over a decade. No more imbalance problem."
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 11, 2012, at 9:04 AM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave;
>
> The flapper valves are necessary to ensure there is always a supply of fuel in
the header tank. Without them fuel would move from one tank to the other with
yaw, etc.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Laird" <dave@davelaird.com>
> To: <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6
>
>
>>
>> Walt... what would happen with NO flapper valves on the header tank...?
>>
>> Dave Laird
>> N63536 1983 CJ6A "Betty"
>> Dallas * Austin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 |
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just had a call from Craig Ekberg with the following he asked me to post:
>
And I must apologize, but I disagree with this post based on what appears
to be a misunderstanding of some physical principles.
>
> "The CJ's single fuel vent tube on the left side of the fuselage comes
> from the factory with its end cut at a 45 degree angle facing forward into
> the slipstream . This pressurizes the vent line and the tanks.
Given how the layer of air, called the boundary layer, right next to the
skin of the airplane does not move (or moves very little), even cutting the
line at a 45-degree angle has little effect unless the vent line is
extended a significant distance past the skin of the plane.
> Consequently, because of proximity, the left tank more so than the right.
> Net, net, net the left tank feeds more rapidly than the right.
Again, my apologies for disagreeing, but this is not the case. Gas pressure
in a vessel is equal in all parts of that vessel. If the vent lines between
tanks are not blocked then the vent pressure in both tanks is equal.
Proximity to one tank or another has no effect. If the fuel is flowing very
rapidly giving rise to significant flow of air in the vent line then it is
possible that a noticeable difference in length could cause a difference in
flow rate but that is not what we are dealing with here.
> The solution is simple. Trim the end of the vent tube to 90 degrees. It's
> still vents, but no longer pressurizes. I did this to my CJ and many others
> for over a decade. No more imbalance problem."
>
Well, you may have solved your imbalance problem but this is not the
reason. And the tanks are indeed pressurized anyway, The belly of the
airplane is a high-pressure area on the airframe. That is why the vent is
terminated there. You want some positive pressure in the tanks to
facilitate flow from the tanks to the engine.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Uneven fuel feed CJ6 |
makes sense to me... thanks walt and brian...
i think the flapper valves like some MMO on occasion to keep them
happy...
-dave
On Jan 11, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:16 PM, Dave Laird <dave@davelaird.com>
wrote:
>
> Walt... what would happen with NO flapper valves on the header
tank...?
>
> Fuel would flow from the high tank, through the header tank, and out
to the low tank. This would cause the imbalance to develop twice as
quickly and/or be twice as bad. (Well, not twice because it is possible
to feed fuel faster than to have it flow back out to a tank -- head
pressure and pump draw.) The flapper valves are a good idea, if they are
working properly. The trick is making sure that they are always working
properly.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
>
>
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