---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/23/12: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:25 AM - MOGAS APPROVAL (Richard Goode) 2. 04:05 AM - Re: MOGAS APPROVAL (lOU) 3. 07:00 AM - Re: MOGAS APPROVAL (Lee R. Haven) 4. 10:21 AM - Re: Re: MOGAS APPROVAL (David Jester) 5. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: MOGAS APPROVAL (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 6. 12:50 PM - Re:MOGAS APPROVAL (Cpayne) 7. 12:55 PM - Torque values (Cpayne) 8. 01:03 PM - Re: Torque values (A. Dennis Savarese) 9. 02:03 PM - Re: Torque values (Roger Kemp) 10. 02:47 PM - Re: Torque values (A. Dennis Savarese) 11. 03:14 PM - Re: Re: MOGAS APPROVAL (Pilotdog57) 12. 05:53 PM - Re: Torque values (Roger Kemp M.D.) 13. 06:21 PM - Re: Re:MOGAS APPROVAL (Roger Kemp M.D.) 14. 08:32 PM - Re: Re:MOGAS APPROVAL (Brian Lloyd) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:26 AM PST US From: "Richard Goode" Subject: Yak-List: MOGAS APPROVAL The issue is not restricted to that of octane. For octane, remember that Aviation and motor fuels measure octane in different ways, and, very roughly, 97 motor octane is about 91 aviation. But M14P is fine for European 95 octane mogas., from an octane point of view. Then there is the issue of the fuel attacking compounds in the fuel system. This is a slight unknown since the content of mogas varies greatly, but, in my view is unlikely to be a problem. BUT, I feel the real area of concern is that of volatility, in that mogas is significantly more volatile than avgas-that is, it boils at a lower temperature. This is particularly true of "winter" mogas which is more volatile to assist in starting. So your worst scenario is with a low-wing plane [so the fuel needs to be sucked into the engine by a pump], still using "winter" mogas on a hot summer day; plane left in the sun, so the wing tanks heat up, and you go for take-off and your engine COULD find itself trying to run on vapour!! But, avoid the winter fuel and keep the tanks cool, and I see no problem, and of course, in my estimation, about half of world-wide Yaks operate some or all of the time on mogas! Richard Goode Rhodds Farm Lyonshall Hereford HR5 3LW United Kingdom Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka) Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129 www.russianaeros.com I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160.
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and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:24 AM PST US From: "lOU" Subject: RE: Yak-List: MOGAS APPROVAL Michael CASA Australia has found one case (Skyfox C25N) where mogas attacked seals in the fuel pump it swelled causing fuel pump to leak, I found the same problem some years ago when racing Go-karts we were forced to use un-leaded the diaphragms in carby swelled, so I will not use it in my Cj6a. I don't think it has been approved in Australia as yet for aircraft flying under the Limited category. Regards Lou Subject: Yak-List: MOGAS APPROVAL Gent's I know there has been quite a bit of discussion over the years on the operation of the Yaks & Nanchangs on Mogas. The question I have is there or has there been any formal approval given by the FAA to operate these aircraft on Mogas. I know in the Nanchang operational manual it states that they can operate on as low as 78octain. Any assistance in finding this out would be appreciated. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:28 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: RE: MOGAS APPROVAL From: "Lee R. Haven" Thanks for the info on MOGAS. Can a person bring MOGAS to the airport and fuel their plane directly from 5 gallon cans? Lee Haven | EMT International, Inc. 780 Centerline Drive | Hobart, Wisconsin 54155 ( 920-544-8958 | 7 920-468-7991 Email: leeh@emtinternational.com Visit our website at emtinternational.com Notice: For complete, proactive, communication any copy (CC :) notice is to provide you with information only. If you do not wish to continue to receive messages of this type, please reply to this message with the word "REMOVE" in the subject. This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: MOGAS APPROVAL From: David Jester We do here in Florida. Regards, Dave Jester On Apr 23, 2012, at 8:56 AM, "Lee R. Haven" wrot e: > Thanks for the info on MOGAS. > > Can a person bring MOGAS to the airport and fuel their plane directly from 5 gallon cans? > > Lee Haven | > > > > EMT International, Inc. > 780 Centerline Drive | Hobart, Wisconsin 54155 > ( 920-544-8958 | 7 920-468-7991 > Email: leeh@emtinternational.com > > Visit our website at emtinternational.com > > Notice: For complete, proactive, communication any copy (CC :) notice is t o provide you with information only. If you do not wish to continue to rece ive messages of this type, please reply to this message with the word "REMOV E" in the subject. This e-mail, including attachments, may include confide ntial and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or e ntity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the inte nded recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibite d. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by re plying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:41 AM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: RE: MOGAS APPROVAL From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" A quick story. Our local airport here in New Bern North Carolina is very "pro FBO" and once tried to prohibit the very thing you are talking about. They made an airport regulation that prohibited a person from bringing ANY type of fuel onto the airport and fueling ANY kind of airplane. You were to buy your fuel from the FBO .... period "or else". Interestingly enough, the Feds weighed in on this one. Since the airport accepts federal funds, they have to comply with federal regulations. Since it has been proven that running some older engines on 100% 100LL fuel can cause damage, and said engines are approved to run MOGAS by the FAA, the airport is required to provide a means to put such fuel into airplanes and if they do not have MOGAS fuel available to be put into airplanes on the airport itself, then they cannot by law prohibit an aircraft owner from bringing it onto the airport and fueling his own airplane. The Airport Authority was forced to change their regulation prohibiting bringing fuel onto the airport. Of course they then passed rules to make it as inconvenient as possible to do so, but that's another story. So bottom line, if your airport accepts federal funding, and does not have MOGAS available for sale at the airport for aircraft use, then they can't stop you from doing it. Reality of course is a totally different thing. They can make an issue out of it, but a call to the FAA will change their minds very quickly. Of course that has "consequences" as well. Then expect all kinds of hassles about the type of container meeting safety regulations, leaving those containers at the airport, etc., etc., etc. Good luck. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Jester Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 1:17 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: MOGAS APPROVAL We do here in Florida. Regards, Dave Jester On Apr 23, 2012, at 8:56 AM, "Lee R. Haven" wrote: Thanks for the info on MOGAS. Can a person bring MOGAS to the airport and fuel their plane directly from 5 gallon cans? Lee Haven | EMT International, Inc. 780 Centerline Drive | Hobart, Wisconsin 54155 ( 920-544-8958 | 7 920-468-7991 Email: leeh@emtinternational.com Visit our website at emtinternational.com Notice: For complete, proactive, communication any copy (CC :) notice is to provide you with information only. If you do not wish to continue to receive messages of this type, please reply to this message with the word "REMOVE" in the subject. This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:24 PM PST US From: Cpayne Subject: Yak-List: Re:MOGAS APPROVAL Richard, In regards to mogas vapor pressure issues, I have not experienced anything like that with the CJ/M-14. Perhaps the pressure type carb is not as susceptible as the float type carb. However; when Florida's Big Sugar lobby got ethanol onto our mogas, *stuff* started happening to seals, even before the warning labels about ethanol content showed up on the retail pumps. Today, I mix 100LL with "Boat Gas", AKA "Recreational 90 octane" without ethanol. Ethanol blended fuels made a sorry mess out of built-in fuel tanks on fiberglass boat hulls, turned them into "gloop". OTOH, I have seen vapor pressure issues with various homebuilts, such as the RV series with fiberglass/foam cored cowlings, which make great insulators and hold in the heat, Craig Payne ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:02 PM PST US From: Cpayne Subject: Yak-List: Torque values Installing an OH'd M-14P which came with new rubber cushions in the mount. Does anyone know if there is a published torque value? So far I tightened the nuts until the mounts were compressed some. Took about 50 in-lbs. Craig Payne ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:18 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Torque values Craig, See attached. This should answer your question. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 4/23/2012 2:51 PM, Cpayne wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: Cpayne > > Installing an OH'd M-14P which came with new rubber cushions in the mount. Does anyone know if there is a published torque value? So far I tightened the nuts until the mounts were compressed some. Took about 50 in-lbs. > > Craig Payne > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:10 PM PST US From: Roger Kemp Subject: Re: Yak-List: Torque values That's what I did to mine. Nice pdf. file Dennis. Some work went into that! Maybe I missed it but where were the torque values. I'm looking for the torque values for the motor mounts on the ring and the fire wall. Right now I am using the Deutch values...goottentight. Doc -----Original Message----- >From: Cpayne >Sent: Apr 23, 2012 2:51 PM >To: yak-list >Subject: Yak-List: Torque values > > >Installing an OH'd M-14P which came with new rubber cushions in the mount. Does anyone know if there is a published torque value? So far I tightened the nuts until the mounts were compressed some. Took about 50 in-lbs. > >Craig Payne > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:50 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Torque values There actually are no specific torque values. It is a compression value. IE: the dimension of the mount rubber once compressed. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 4/23/2012 3:59 PM, Roger Kemp wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp > > That's what I did to mine. Nice pdf. file Dennis. Some work went into that! Maybe I missed it but where were the torque values. I'm looking for the torque values for the motor mounts on the ring and the fire wall. Right now I am using the Deutch values...goottentight. > Doc > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Cpayne >> Sent: Apr 23, 2012 2:51 PM >> To: yak-list >> Subject: Yak-List: Torque values >> >> --> Yak-List message posted by: Cpayne >> >> Installing an OH'd M-14P which came with new rubber cushions in the mount. Does anyone know if there is a published torque value? So far I tightened the nuts until the mounts were compressed some. Took about 50 in-lbs. >> >> Craig Payne >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: RE: MOGAS APPROVAL From: Pilotdog57 Does anyone run Mogas with ethanol? I used to run Mogas most of the time whe n It was mixed with MTBE- but ethanol mix has me running 100 LL. Any one been running ethanol mixed Mogas long enough to have developed a informed opinion? I am running an M14P in a CJ6. Thanks. Doug Zeissner Sent from my iPad On Apr 23, 2012, at 10:17 AM, David Jester wrote: > We do here in Florida. > > Regards, > > Dave Jester > > > On Apr 23, 2012, at 8:56 AM, "Lee R. Haven" wr ote: > >> Thanks for the info on MOGAS. >> >> Can a person bring MOGAS to the airport and fuel their plane directly fro m 5 gallon cans? >> >> Lee Haven | >> >> >> >> EMT International, Inc. >> 780 Centerline Drive | Hobart, Wisconsin 54155 >> ( 920-544-8958 | 7 920-468-7991 >> Email: leeh@emtinternational.com >> >> Visit our website at emtinternational.com >> >> Notice: For complete, proactive, communication any copy (CC :) notice is t o provide you with information only. If you do not wish to continue to rece ive messages of this type, please reply to this message with the word "REMOV E" in the subject. This e-mail, including attachments, may include confide ntial and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or e ntity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the inte nded recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibite d. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by re plying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. >> > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Torque values From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Copy.. That is what I did. The T.O.'s did not give any guidance. Doc Sent from my iPad On Apr 23, 2012, at 4:45 PM, "A. Dennis Savarese" wrote: > > There actually are no specific torque values. It is a compression value. IE: the dimension of the mount rubber once compressed. > Dennis > > A. Dennis Savarese > 334-285-6263 > 334-546-8182 (mobile) > www.yak-52.com > Skype - Yakguy1 > > > On 4/23/2012 3:59 PM, Roger Kemp wrote: >> --> Yak-List message posted by: Roger Kemp >> >> That's what I did to mine. Nice pdf. file Dennis. Some work went into that! Maybe I missed it but where were the torque values. I'm looking for the torque values for the motor mounts on the ring and the fire wall. Right now I am using the Deutch values...goottentight. >> Doc >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Cpayne >>> Sent: Apr 23, 2012 2:51 PM >>> To: yak-list >>> Subject: Yak-List: Torque values >>> >>> --> Yak-List message posted by: Cpayne >>> >>> Installing an OH'd M-14P which came with new rubber cushions in the mount. Does anyone know if there is a published torque value? So far I tightened the nuts until the mounts were compressed some. Took about 50 in-lbs. >>> >>> Craig Payne >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re:MOGAS APPROVAL From: "Roger Kemp M.D." With Mogas do you add stabilizer to gas if you are going to have the A/C down for a while? Knowing some of the crap they put in Mogas can gum up the floats and plastic in auto carbs I would assume it would do the same to a CJ engine that was stood down for awhile. Doc Sent from my iPad On Apr 23, 2012, at 2:46 PM, Cpayne wrote: > > Richard, > > In regards to mogas vapor pressure issues, I have not experienced anything like that with the CJ/M-14. Perhaps the pressure type carb is not as susceptible as the float type carb. However; when Florida's Big Sugar lobby got ethanol onto our mogas, *stuff* started happening to seals, even before the warning labels about ethanol content showed up on the retail pumps. > > Today, I mix 100LL with "Boat Gas", AKA "Recreational 90 octane" without ethanol. Ethanol blended fuels made a sorry mess out of built-in fuel tanks on fiberglass boat hulls, turned them into "gloop". > > OTOH, I have seen vapor pressure issues with various homebuilts, such as the RV series with fiberglass/foam cored cowlings, which make great insulators and hold in the heat, > > Craig Payne > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re:MOGAS APPROVAL From: Brian Lloyd On Monday, April 23, 2012, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote: > > > > With Mogas do you add stabilizer to gas if you are going to have the A/C > down for a while? > Knowing some of the crap they put in Mogas can gum up the floats and > plastic in auto carbs I would assume it would do the same to a CJ engine > that was stood down for awhile. > Doc I never did. But then, I don't think I ever left a tank of gas for longer than a week either. And every so often, i.e. every couple of months, I would go on a cross country and have to burn avgas anyway. So I never had a problem. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.