---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/09/12: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:34 AM - compressor issues (Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer) 2. 11:59 AM - Re: compressor issues (A. Dennis Savarese) 3. 12:01 PM - Re: compressor issues (doug sapp) 4. 12:47 PM - Re: compressor issues (A. Dennis Savarese) 5. 01:13 PM - Re: compressor issues (Larry Pine) 6. 01:18 PM - Re: compressor issues (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E) 7. 01:19 PM - Re: compressor issues (Dale) 8. 03:25 PM - Re: compressor issues (Brian Lloyd) 9. 03:38 PM - Re: compressor issues (\) 10. 05:07 PM - Re: compressor issues (John Fischer) 11. 06:08 PM - Re: compressor issues (Bill Geipel) 12. 07:47 PM - Re: compressor issues (Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer) 13. 09:31 PM - Dragger mod for the YAK 50 (Roger Kemp M.D.) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:36 AM PST US From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer Subject: Yak-List: compressor issues The other day I had a chat with a friend who owns a M14P powered homebuilt. He told me he doesn't have much luck with with the original engine driven compressor and is now thinking about removing and replacing it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of the fuselage). He has no retractable undercarriage and no pneumatically operated flaps and brakes, his air system is only used to fire up the engine. I suggested to convert to an approved electric start system but since he has already that surplus compressor (and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try. I am always very skeptic if someone deviates from the designer's path, but since this is a homebuilt - different rules apply? What are the cons and pros of this project, I have never heard of anyone doing something similar? Your educated opinion on this matter is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance. cheers Elmar ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:59:08 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues Elmar, What seems to be the problem with the engine driven compressor? It is a very reliable and efficient system. Tell your friend to contact either by phone or off list and I will try to help him. There are several Yak 52TW's that have electric and air start. Most of the owners use the electric start to start the engine and use the air start as a backup. George Coy at Border Air in Swanton, Vermont may be able to help him with an electric start, should he decide that is the way he wants to go. The electric start 52TW's are sometimes and affectionately called "sissy yaks". Naturally, it will add weight to the nose because the electric starter and mounting assembly attaches at the nose case and adds a flywheel between the nose case and the prop flange. He will also have to add the battery and necessary heavy duty cables. Most import is the nose case itself. It must be a series II nose case with the round accessory plate on the left side. A series I nose case does not have the accessory plate and therefore would have to be changed to a series II. May be more than he really wants to do. Especially when it comes to changing the nose case, should it be necessary. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 5/9/2012 1:30 PM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer wrote: > > > The other day I had a chat with a friend who > owns a M14P powered homebuilt. > > He told me he doesn't have much luck with > with the original engine driven compressor > and is now thinking about removing and replacing > it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi > 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of > the fuselage). > > He has no retractable undercarriage and no > pneumatically operated flaps and brakes, > his air system is only used to fire up the engine. > > I suggested to convert to an approved electric start > system but since he has already that surplus compressor > (and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try. > > I am always very skeptic if someone deviates > from the designer's path, but since this is a > homebuilt - different rules apply? > > What are the cons and pros of this project, I > have never heard of anyone doing something > similar? > > Your educated opinion on this matter is highly > appreciated. > > Thank you in advance. > > cheers > > Elmar > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues From: doug sapp Elmar, The idea is a good one if you have a lot of time and a big battery. As with most high pressure compressors these compressors pump very slowly. I found that I had to install a converter to convert 110 volts AC to 24 volts @20 amps DC to produce my high pressure shop air to check valves etc. I also tried a pair of heavy duty deep cycle 12 volt batteries but found that when operating under any pressure at all the compressor sucked the batteries dry before my CJ tank was full. Doug On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer wrote: > samira.h@shaw.ca> > > The other day I had a chat with a friend who > owns a M14P powered homebuilt. > > He told me he doesn't have much luck with > with the original engine driven compressor > and is now thinking about removing and replacing > it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi > 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of > the fuselage). > > He has no retractable undercarriage and no > pneumatically operated flaps and brakes, > his air system is only used to fire up the engine. > > I suggested to convert to an approved electric start > system but since he has already that surplus compressor > (and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try. > > I am always very skeptic if someone deviates > from the designer's path, but since this is a > homebuilt - different rules apply? > > What are the cons and pros of this project, I > have never heard of anyone doing something > similar? > > Your educated opinion on this matter is highly > appreciated. > > Thank you in advance. > > cheers > > Elmar > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:08 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues EXCELLENT points Doug. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 5/9/2012 1:57 PM, doug sapp wrote: > Elmar, > The idea is a good one if you have a lot of time and a big battery. > As with most high pressure compressors these compressors pump very > slowly. I found that I had to install a converter to convert 110 > volts AC to 24 volts @20 amps DC to produce my high pressure shop air > to check valves etc. I also tried a pair of heavy duty deep cycle 12 > volt batteries but found that when operating under any pressure at all > the compressor sucked the batteries dry before my CJ tank was full. > > Doug > > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer > > wrote: > > > > > The other day I had a chat with a friend who > owns a M14P powered homebuilt. > > He told me he doesn't have much luck with > with the original engine driven compressor > and is now thinking about removing and replacing > it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi > 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of > the fuselage). > > He has no retractable undercarriage and no > pneumatically operated flaps and brakes, > his air system is only used to fire up the engine. > > I suggested to convert to an approved electric start > system but since he has already that surplus compressor > (and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try. > > I am always very skeptic if someone deviates > from the designer's path, but since this is a > homebuilt - different rules apply? > > What are the cons and pros of this project, I > have never heard of anyone doing something > similar? > > Your educated opinion on this matter is highly > appreciated. > > Thank you in advance. > > cheers > > Elmar > > > =================================== > rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > =================================== > http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:10 PM PST US From: Larry Pine Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues I have, what I'm told is an AN2 engine driven compressor. Mine is larger th an the stock M14P compresssor.- Besides making-air at idle, I can have an-empty bottle to the point of fill while taxing.-- I tend to-like it.. Attached is a picture. Larry Pine --- On Wed, 5/9/12, A. Dennis Savarese wrote: From: A. Dennis Savarese Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues th.net> EXCELLENT points Doug. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 5/9/2012 1:57 PM, doug sapp wrote: > Elmar, > The idea is a good one if you have a lot of time and a big battery. >- As with most high pressure compressors these compressors pump very > slowly.- I found that I had to install a converter to convert 110 > volts AC to 24 volts @20 amps DC to produce my high pressure shop air > to check valves etc.- I also tried a pair of heavy duty deep cycle 12 > volt batteries but found that when operating under any pressure at all > the compressor sucked the batteries dry before my CJ tank was full. > > Doug > > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer > > wrote: > >- ---> > >- ---The other day I had a chat with a friend who >- ---owns a M14P powered homebuilt. > >- ---He told me he doesn't have much luck with >- ---with the original engine driven compressor >- ---and is now thinking about removing and replacing >- ---it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi >- ---27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of >- ---the fuselage). > >- ---He has no retractable undercarriage and no >- ---pneumatically operated flaps and brakes, >- ---his air system is only used to fire up the engine. > >- ---I suggested to convert to an approved electric start >- ---system but since he has already that surplus compressor >- ---(and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try. > >- ---I am always very skeptic if someone deviates >- ---from the designer's path, but since this is a >- ---homebuilt - different rules apply? > >- ---What are the cons and pros of this project, I >- ---have never heard of anyone doing something >- ---similar? > >- ---Your educated opinion on this matter is highly >- ---appreciated. > >- ---Thank you in advance. > >- ---cheers > >- ---Elmar > > >- ---==================== =============== >- ---rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List >- ---==================== =============== >- ---http://forums.matronics.com >- ---==================== =============== >- ---le, List Admin. >- ---="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >- ---==================== =============== > > > * > > > * le, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:40 PM PST US Subject: RE: Yak-List: compressor issues From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" I did some research and confirmed that this compressor does indeed spec out with a 21 Amp DC current draw at 27 VDC. Assuming the original Russian generator is used, it can indeed handle this kind of load. However, since this is a homebuilt aircraft, we have to assume the electrical system is also homebuilt. We would have to specifically know what kind of ancillary control system was used, such as reverse current relay, etc., etc. It is doubtful that the complete Russian system was used, thus I am guessing it might be an aftermarket alternator system such as the B&C SK-35, etc. Need to know ALL about that aspect of his aircraft. We also do not know what kind of pneumatic tank was used, and the volume of that tank. Using an overly large pneumatic tank in the homebuilt design could indeed lead the owner into believing that the engine driven compressor is "just not doing the job". Why? Because an overly large tank would take one heck of a long time to come up to pressure with the engine driven pump. This is a critical design consideration and could be the root of the perceived problem. As Doug Sapp points out, a 21 amp current draw for any period of time is going to suck down the batteries in very short order. Typical aftermarket Yak, Sukhoi, CJ-6 designs use two 12 volt batteries (in series) of relatively light design that have between 6 to 12 amp hour loads. These are way too small for this kind of continuous load, as Doug mentioned. So the idea is sound, and it will work, but it will require some pretty extensive design requirements of the aircraft electrical system and the aircraft battery. As Dennis pointed out, the aircraft compressor works, and usually works very well with minor preventative maintenance. It will (however) leak and not work properly if it is not installed and checked properly. Banjo fittings, crush washers, check valves, etc. All need to be properly checked and tested, which is exactly what I am sure he wants to talk to the gent about. But before all that, and before electrical changes, and electrical starters, etc., are all considered... ask this gentleman what the size of his air tank is ... as in... what is the volume of his tank? Especially as compared to the ones typically used in stock M-14 powered aircraft. Mark Bitterlich -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues Elmar, The idea is a good one if you have a lot of time and a big battery. As with most high pressure compressors these compressors pump very slowly. I found that I had to install a converter to convert 110 volts AC to 24 volts @20 amps DC to produce my high pressure shop air to check valves etc. I also tried a pair of heavy duty deep cycle 12 volt batteries but found that when operating under any pressure at all the compressor sucked the batteries dry before my CJ tank was full. Doug On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer wrote: The other day I had a chat with a friend who owns a M14P powered homebuilt. He told me he doesn't have much luck with with the original engine driven compressor and is now thinking about removing and replacing it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of the fuselage). He has no retractable undercarriage and no pneumatically operated flaps and brakes, his air system is only used to fire up the engine. I suggested to convert to an approved electric start system but since he has already that surplus compressor (and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try. I am always very skeptic if someone deviates from the designer's path, but since this is a homebuilt - different rules apply? What are the cons and pros of this project, I have never heard of anyone doing something similar? Your educated opinion on this matter is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance. cheers Elmar =================================== rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List =================================== http://forums.matronics.com =================================== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:15 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: compressor issues From: "Dale" The air system will look cheap compared to changing over to electric start. The gill system is also in the way, flywheel,crankshaft, maybe prop, starter, mounting brackets,the rest of the electrical system changes. keep the original air pump. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=372701#372701 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues From: Brian Lloyd On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer wrote: > samira.h@shaw.ca> > > The other day I had a chat with a friend who > owns a M14P powered homebuilt. > > He told me he doesn't have much luck with > with the original engine driven compressor > and is now thinking about removing and replacing > it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi > 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of > the fuselage). > My advice is to keep it simple. A pneumatic start system on an engine that is designed for pneumatic start is going to be far simpler than retrofitting electric start. The added weight alone for electric start would give me pause. My recommendation would be to have your friend give Dennis a call as Dennis has already offered his assistance. It has to be a lot easier to fix what is broken rather than to start with something completely new and then have a completely new set of problems to troubleshoot. -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 3191 Western Dr. Cameron Park, CA 95682 brian@lloyd.com +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica) +1.916.877.5067 (USA) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues From: "\"" Dennis & Doug are correct about the time a Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi 27VDC compressor would take to fill a tank. I use a 28dcv battery charger to run my cornelius and it takes 2 hours to fill a scuba tank to 1500psi. No a/c battery will last long enough. It'd be best to find out whats wrong with the regular compressor and fix it. A cornelius requires a oil supply (the can attached) and over all its heavier. I used mine to keep a scuba bottle filled for shop work and to refill my CJ during shop maintenance. I am interested about the AN2 compressor. Does it fit right on the M-14 in the regular place? This is the first I've heard of it. Jim "Pappy" Goolsby -----Original Message----- From: Larry Pine wrote: From: A. Dennis Savarese Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues th.net> EXCELLENT points Doug. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese 334-285-6263 334-546-8182 (mobile) www.yak-52.com Skype - Yakguy1 On 5/9/2012 1:57 PM, doug sapp wrote: > Elmar, > The idea is a good one if you have a lot of time and a big battery. > As with most high pressure compressors these compressors pump very > slowly. I found that I had to install a converter to convert 110 > volts AC to 24 volts @20 amps DC to produce my high pressure shop air > to check valves etc. I also tried a pair of heavy duty deep cycle 12 > volt batteries but found that when operating under any pressure at all > the compressor sucked the batteries dry before my CJ tank was full. > > Doug > > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer > > wrote: > > > > > The other day I had a chat with a friend who > owns a M14P powered homebuilt. > > He told me he doesn't have much luck with > with the original engine driven compressor > and is now thinking about removing and replacing > it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi > 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of > the fuselage). > > He has no retractable undercarriage and no > pneumatically operated flaps and brakes, > his air system is only used to fire up the engine. > > I suggested to convert to an approved electric start > system but since he has already that surplus compressor > (and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try. > > I am always very skeptic if someone deviates > from the designer's path, but since this is a > homebuilt - different rules apply? > > What are the cons and pros of this project, I > have never heard of anyone doing something > similar? > > Your educated opinion on this matter is highly > appreciated. > > Thank you in advance. > > cheers > > Elmar > > > ========== > rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ======================= ============ > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > * > > >nbsp;--> http://f= - List Contributionsp; &bsp;--> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:08 PM PST US From: John Fischer Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues Group, I looked at the Bear 360 project which has an M-14P with electric start and Sukoi type shutters. Skip Holm even asked about using my Yak-52 to help get the system up and running. But the project has not gone any further. http://www.bearaircraft.com/ Laterrrrrr John Fischer California City, CA On 5/9/2012 12:44 PM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote: > > > EXCELLENT points Doug. > Dennis > > A. Dennis Savarese > 334-285-6263 > 334-546-8182 (mobile) > www.yak-52.com > Skype - Yakguy1 > > > On 5/9/2012 1:57 PM, doug sapp wrote: >> Elmar, >> The idea is a good one if you have a lot of time and a big battery. >> As with most high pressure compressors these compressors pump very >> slowly. I found that I had to install a converter to convert 110 >> volts AC to 24 volts @20 amps DC to produce my high pressure shop air >> to check valves etc. I also tried a pair of heavy duty deep cycle 12 >> volt batteries but found that when operating under any pressure at >> all the compressor sucked the batteries dry before my CJ tank was full. >> >> Doug >> >> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> The other day I had a chat with a friend who >> owns a M14P powered homebuilt. >> >> He told me he doesn't have much luck with >> with the original engine driven compressor >> and is now thinking about removing and replacing >> it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi >> 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of >> the fuselage). >> >> He has no retractable undercarriage and no >> pneumatically operated flaps and brakes, >> his air system is only used to fire up the engine. >> >> I suggested to convert to an approved electric start >> system but since he has already that surplus compressor >> (and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try. >> >> I am always very skeptic if someone deviates >> from the designer's path, but since this is a >> homebuilt - different rules apply? >> >> What are the cons and pros of this project, I >> have never heard of anyone doing something >> similar? >> >> Your educated opinion on this matter is highly >> appreciated. >> >> Thank you in advance. >> >> cheers >> >> Elmar >> >> >> >> >> >> =================================== >> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List >> =================================== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> =================================== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> =================================== >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> * > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues From: Bill Geipel Does it fit where the stock compressor does? Bill On May 9, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Larry Pine wrote: > I have, what I'm told is an AN2 engine driven compressor. Mine is larger t han the stock M14P compresssor. Besides making air at idle, I can have an e mpty bottle to the point of fill while taxing. I tend to like it.. Attache d is a picture. > > Larry Pine > > > --- On Wed, 5/9/12, A. Dennis Savarese wrote : > > From: A. Dennis Savarese > Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2012, 12:44 PM > uth.net> > > EXCELLENT points Doug. > Dennis > > A. Dennis Savarese > 334-285-6263 > 334-546-8182 (mobile) > www.yak-52.com > Skype - Yakguy1 > > > On 5/9/2012 1:57 PM, doug sapp wrote: > > Elmar, > > The idea is a good one if you have a lot of time and a big battery. > > As with most high pressure compressors these compressors pump very > > slowly. I found that I had to install a converter to convert 110 > > volts AC to 24 volts @20 amps DC to produce my high pressure shop air > > to check valves etc. I also tried a pair of heavy duty deep cycle 12 > > volt batteries but found that when operating under any pressure at all > > the compressor sucked the batteries dry before my CJ tank was full. > > > > Doug > > > > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > The other day I had a chat with a friend who > > owns a M14P powered homebuilt. > > > > He told me he doesn't have much luck with > > with the original engine driven compressor > > and is now thinking about removing and replacing > > it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi > > 27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of > > the fuselage). > > > > He has no retractable undercarriage and no > > pneumatically operated flaps and brakes, > > his air system is only used to fire up the engine. > > > > I suggested to convert to an approved electric start > > system but since he has already that surplus compressor > > (and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a try. > > > > I am always very skeptic if someone deviates > > from the designer's path, but since this is a > > homebuilt - different rules apply? > > > > What are the cons and pros of this project, I > > have never heard of anyone doing something > > similar? > > > > Your educated opinion on this matter is highly > > appreciated. > > > > Thank you in advance. > > > > cheers > > > > Elmar > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List > > ========== > > http://forums.matronics.com > > ======================= ============ > > le, List Admin. > > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > >nbsp;--> http://f= - List Contributionsp; &bsp;--> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:07 PM PST US From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer Subject: Yak-List: Re: compressor issues Thank you everybody for your input and for sharing valuable thoughts and information. Dennis, I will forward Thom your phone number - thank you for your generous offer to give him some guidance. Blue Skies Elmar P.S.: Last month I have sold my spare compressor but I've learned today that it also fits on the M14P, timing is everything in life. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:35 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Dragger mod for the YAK 50 From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Sorry for taking so long to get this. Doc Sent from my iPad
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