Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:21 AM - Re: compressor issues (Brian Lloyd)
2. 07:53 AM - Re: compressor issues (Richard Goode)
3. 08:03 AM - Re: compressor issues (Brian Lloyd)
4. 08:12 AM - Re: compressor issues (George Coy)
5. 08:18 AM - Re: compressor issues (Larry Pine)
6. 08:30 AM - Re: compressor issues (Brian Lloyd)
7. 09:10 AM - Re: compressor issues (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
8. 09:12 AM - Re: compressor issues (Brian Lloyd)
9. 09:14 AM - Re: compressor issues (Walter Lannon)
10. 09:24 AM - Re: compressor issues (Richard Goode)
11. 09:45 AM - Re: compressor issues (Larry Pine)
12. 01:18 PM - Re: Engine (Cpayne)
13. 05:33 PM - Re: compressor issues (Bill Geipel)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: compressor issues |
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Unloading while flying not a bad idea to avoid continuous load when tank is
> full but ...
>
It probably doesn't take much power from the engine once the tank is full.
The force required to push the piston on compression is returned to the
engine when the piston is on its downward (expansion) stroke, less
frictional losses, thermal losses, and force loss due to losing air through
the pop-off valve. And while I don't know what these losses are, I suspect
that this makes the advantage of a bypass/unload valve much less obvious.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 2
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| Subject: | compressor issues |
The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 =BD HP according to the
Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.
But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always under
load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor life.
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: 11 May 2012 15:19
Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com> wrote:
Bill,
Unloading while flying not a bad idea to avoid continuous load when tank is
full but ...
It probably doesn't take much power from the engine once the tank is full.
The force required to push the piston on compression is returned to the
engine when the piston is on its downward (expansion) stroke, less
frictional losses, thermal losses, and force loss due to losing air through
the pop-off valve. And while I don't know what these losses are, I suspect
that this makes the advantage of a bypass/unload valve much less obvious.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: compressor issues |
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Richard Goode <
richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
> The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 =BD HP according to the
> Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.****
>
> ** **
>
> But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always under
> load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor life.
>
Do you know why they fail when left under load? Valves? Bearings? Has
anyone done a post-mortem? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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| Subject: | compressor issues |
Heat is the killer. Usually the oil carbonizes in the internal valves.
They
are lubricated by engine oil. We also felt at one time that the
additives in
the Aeroshell 15-50 would hasten the failure. Not too sure if it is
really
true.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Richard Goode
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 =BD HP according to the
Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.
But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always
under
load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor life.
Do you know why they fail when left under load? Valves? Bearings? Has
anyone
done a post-mortem? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 5
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| Subject: | compressor issues |
Attached is a picture of the compressor I have.- It has an extra compress
ion stage than the normal M14P compressor.- Like I said, mine is orientat
ed differently because of my hose routing.- I did incorporate an unload f
eature.- This feature works well but you must remember to close it before
landing.- I forgot once and it lead to hours of confusion as to why I wa
sn't making air.- Other than that, I have seen no adverse affects.
Larry Pine
--- On Thu, 5/10/12, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <
mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich
@navy.mil>
Subject: RE: Yak-List: compressor issues
ALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
A few facts to consider:-
AN-2:- 4700 pound aircraft with a 1000 horsepower engine. Pneumatic brake
system and compressor designed to bring it to a stop.-
Take air compressor off 1000 HP engine and put it on 360 (or less) horsepow
er engine.-
It fits.-
Pumps up tank faster.---You betcha.- Which means it also places a m
uch heavier load on the engine drive system that powers it while doing so.
---
The result of doing that long term?---I have no idea.- Maybe someon
e else does.---I have no doubt that it works well short term.- It m
ay turn out to be a really good mod, but make no mistake that it will rob m
ore power from the engine when it is under load.- Not saying the sky is f
alling.- Just saying that it is wise to consider such a change carefully.
-
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Bill Geipel
Sent: Thu 5/10/2012 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues
Sounds like something I should do. Thank you.
Bill
On May 10, 2012, at 9:53 AM, Larry Pine <threein60@yahoo.com> wrote:
It's a little larger but still fits as an exact bolt-up.- Mine is canted
downward instead of the stock upwards due to hoses that I added.
Larry Pine
--- On Wed, 5/9/12, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net> wrote:
--- From: Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>
--- Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues
--- To: "yak-list@matronics.com" <yak-list@matronics.com>
--- Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2012, 6:04 PM
---
---
--- Does it fit where the stock compressor does?
---
--- Bill
--- On May 9, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Larry Pine <threein60@yahoo.com <http
://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=threein60@yahoo.com> > wrote:
---
---
I have, what I'm told is an AN2 engine driven compressor. Mine is larger th
an the stock M14P compresssor.- Besides making air at idle, I can have an
empty bottle to the point of fill while taxing.---I tend to like it.
. Attached is a picture.
Larry Pine
--- On Wed, 5/9/12, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net <http:/
/us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> > wr
ote:
--- From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net <http://us.
mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> >
--- Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues
--- To: yak-list@matronics.com <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/co
mpose?to=yak-list@matronics.com>
--- Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2012, 12:44 PM
---
---
12@bellsouth.net <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dsavarese
0812@bellsouth.net> >
---
--- EXCELLENT points Doug.
--- Dennis
---
--- A. Dennis Savarese
--- 334-285-6263 <https://webmail.east.nmci.navy.mil/exchange/mark.bi
tterlich/Drafts/RE:%20Yak-List:%20compressor%20issues.EML/1_text.htm#>- <
http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.tm=1336592194#>
--- 334-546-8182 <https://webmail.east.nmci.navy.mil/exchange/mark.bi
tterlich/Drafts/RE:%20Yak-List:%20compressor%20issues.EML/1_text.htm#>- <
http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.tm=1336592194#>- (mobile)
--- www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com/>
--- Skype - Yakguy1
---
---
--- On 5/9/2012 1:57 PM, doug sapp wrote:
--- > Elmar,
--- > The idea is a good one if you have a lot of time and a big batt
ery.
--- >- As with most high pressure compressors these compressors pum
p very
--- > slowly.- I found that I had to install a converter to convert
110
--- > volts AC to 24 volts @20 amps DC to produce my high pressure sh
op air
--- > to check valves etc.- I also tried a pair of heavy duty deep
cycle 12
--- > volt batteries but found that when operating under any pressure
at all
--- > the compressor sucked the batteries dry before my CJ tank was f
ull.
--- >
--- > Doug
--- >
--- > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer
--- > <samira.h@shaw.ca <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t
o=samira.h@shaw.ca>- <mailto:samira.h@shaw.ca <http://us.mc1614.mail.ya
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=samira.h@shaw.ca> >> wrote:
--- >
enauer
--- >- ---<samira.h@shaw.ca <http://us.mc1614.mail.yahoo.com/
mc/compose?to=samira.h@shaw.ca>- <mailto:samira.h@shaw.ca <http://us.mc
1614.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=samira.h@shaw.ca> >>
--- >
--- >- ---The other day I had a chat with a friend who
--- >- ---owns a M14P powered homebuilt.
--- >
--- >- ---He told me he doesn't have much luck with
--- >- ---with the original engine driven compressor
--- >- ---and is now thinking about removing and replacing
--- >- ---it with a Series 32 Cornelius 3-stage 1500psi
--- >- ---27VDC compressor (installed in the rear part of
--- >- ---the fuselage).
--- >
--- >- ---He has no retractable undercarriage and no
--- >- ---pneumatically operated flaps and brakes,
--- >- ---his air system is only used to fire up the engine.
--- >
--- >- ---I suggested to convert to an approved electric star
t
--- >- ---system but since he has already that surplus compre
ssor
--- >- ---(and a skinny wallet), he would like to give it a t
ry.
--- >
--- >- ---I am always very skeptic if someone deviates
--- >- ---from the designer's path, but since this is a
--- >- ---homebuilt - different rules apply?
--- >
--- >- ---What are the cons and pros of this project, I
--- >- ---have never heard of anyone doing something
--- >- ---similar?
--- >
--- >- ---Your educated opinion on this matter is highly
--- >- ---appreciated.
--- >
--- >- ---Thank you in advance.
--- >
--- >- ---cheers
--- >
--- >- ---Elmar
--- >
--- >
--- >
--- >
--- >
--- >- ---==========
--- >- ---rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
Yak-List
--- >- ---==========
--- >- ---http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronic
s.com/>
--- >- ---=================
==================
--- >- ---le, List Admin.
--- >- ---="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--- >- ---==========
--- >
--- >
--- >
--- >
--- > *
--- >
--- >
--- >nbsp;--> http://f=- - - - - ---- List Contribu
tionsp;- - - - - - - - - ---&bsp;--> <http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
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k-List
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le, List Admin.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: compressor issues |
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 8:13 AM, George Coy <george.coy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Heat is the killer.
>
Yeah, heat usually is. At a high-enough compression ratio I can imagine the
compressor becoming a compression-ignition engine with that oil-rich
environment. :-)
> Usually the oil carbonizes in the internal valves. They are lubricated by
> engine oil.
>
That is what I suspected the failure mode might be. Seems that just
cleaning the valves would make the compressor fully operational again.
> We also felt at one time that the additives in the Aeroshell 15-50 would
> hasten the failure. Not too sure if it is really true.
>
I would expect synthetic oils with higher flash-points to be better in this
respect. It would take a lot of samples to get really meaningful
statistical data.
Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 7
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| Subject: | compressor issues |
Impressive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Pine
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: compressor issues
Attached is a picture of the compressor I have. It has an extra
compression stage than the normal M14P compressor. Like I said, mine is
orientated differently because of my hose routing. I did incorporate an
unload feature. This feature works well but you must remember to close
it before landing. I forgot once and it lead to hours of confusion as
to why I wasn't making air. Other than that, I have seen no adverse
affects.
Larry Pine
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: compressor issues |
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Larry Pine <threein60@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ... I did incorporate an unload feature. This feature works well but you
> must remember to close it before landing. I forgot once and it lead to
> hours of confusion as to why I wasn't making air.
Ah, the law of unintended consequences. In the end, "improvements" rarely
offer as much advantage as initially believed.
Nice compressor tho'. Where'd you get it?
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: compressor issues |
Is there actually someone using Aeroshell W15W50 in a radial
engine???????? About the only place that may be appropriate is North of
60.
Walt
From: George Coy
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 8:13 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: compressor issues
Heat is the killer. Usually the oil carbonizes in the internal valves.
They are lubricated by engine oil. We also felt at one time that the
additives in the Aeroshell 15-50 would hasten the failure. Not too sure
if it is really true.
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Richard Goode
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 =BD HP according to the
Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.
But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always
under load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor
life.
Do you know why they fail when left under load? Valves? Bearings? Has
anyone done a post-mortem? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to
understand.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhtt
p://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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| Subject: | compressor issues |
Mainly the valve, but then piston/rings, and sometimes bearings.
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: 11 May 2012 16:01
Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Richard Goode
<richard.goode@russianaeros.com> wrote:
The power loss due to the compressor is about 1 =BD HP according to the
Russians, so not a huge amount extra on 400.
But We find that few compressors go to the full 500 hours if always under
load, so the real advantage is the great extension in compressor life.
Do you know why they fail when left under load? Valves? Bearings? Has anyone
done a post-mortem? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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and is
believed to be clean.
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: compressor issues |
It was originally installed when I bough the engine from someone in a creat
e from Russia.
Larry Pine
--- On Fri, 5/11/12, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor issues
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Larry Pine <threein60@yahoo.com> wrote:
... I did incorporate an unload feature.- This feature works well but you
must remember to close it before landing.- I forgot once and it lead to
hours of confusion as to why I wasn't making air.-
Ah, the law of unintended consequences. In the end, "improvements" rarely o
ffer as much advantage as initially believed.-
Nice compressor tho'. Where'd you get it?
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 12
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How is it that "Rich" and "Yak owner" fit together in the same sentence? We here
in the Colonies call that an "Oxymoron". In the U.S. Warbird world, we either
rank as Pond Scum or Bottom Feeders, depending upon where the beholder is in
the hierarchy.
When is the last time anyone saw a CJ or Yak-5x on the cover of Warbirds?
>If any rich Yak owners would like another one for their home/office/den,
>please let us know!
>
>
>Richard Goode Aerobatics
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: compressor issues |
How do you unload it? Pix?
Bill
On May 11, 2012, at 9:16 AM, Larry Pine <threein60@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Attached is a picture of the compressor I have. It has an extra compressi
on stage than the normal M14P compressor. Like I said, mine is orientated d
ifferently because of my hose routing. I did incorporate an unload feature.
This feature works well but you must remember to close it before landing.
I forgot once and it lead to hours of confusion as to why I wasn't making a
ir. Other than that, I have seen no adverse affects.
>
> Larry Pine
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