Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:38 AM - Nanchang accident. (Philip Nicholson)
2. 06:15 AM - Arizona entrepreneur, son killed in plane crash in Colorado (JIM SELBY)
3. 06:55 AM - Re: Nanchang accident. (William Halverson)
4. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: Air compressor overhaul (bill wade)
5. 08:19 AM - Re: Nanchang accident. (Warren Hill)
6. 09:39 AM - Re: Exhaust valves (doug sapp)
7. 10:55 AM - Re: Nanchang accident. (A. Dennis Savarese)
8. 11:07 AM - Re: Nanchang accident. (hess737@aol.com)
9. 11:13 AM - Re: Nanchang accident. (Brian Lloyd)
10. 11:19 AM - Re: Nanchang accident. (A. Dennis Savarese)
11. 02:26 PM - Re: Nanchang accident. (William Halverson)
12. 02:34 PM - Re: Nanchang accident. (A. Dennis Savarese)
13. 03:11 PM - Re: Nanchang accident. (Adrian Coop Cooper)
14. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Warren Hill)
15. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Thomas Geoghegan)
16. 03:56 PM - Re: Nanchang accident. (Dale)
17. 04:00 PM - AOA , Reserve Lift indicators (Dale)
18. 04:27 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Warren Hill)
19. 04:42 PM - Re: Nanchang accident. (Dale)
20. 05:11 PM - CJ Prop and spark plugs for sale (ONTHEGOAZ@aol.com)
21. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Bill Geipel)
22. 08:57 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Nanchang accident. |
TSB Identification: CEN12FA462
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, July 21, 2012 in Walsenburg, CO
Aircraft: NANCHANG CHINA CJ-6A, registration: N96YK
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
report has been completed.
On July 21, 2012, about 1130 mountain daylight time, an experimental
Nanchang CJ-6A airplane, N96YK, impacted terrain near the Spanish
Peaks Airfield (K4V1), Walsenburg, Colorado. The private pilot and the
passenger were both fatally injured. The airplane sustained
substantial damage. The airplane was registered to and operated by a
private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal
Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological
conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated without a flight
plan. The flight originated from an undetermined location and was
destined for K4V1.
The pilot was flying to K4V1 to join three other airplanes for a
formation flight. The other pilots in the formation were already at
the airfield waiting for the pilot and observed the accident. The
witnesses reported that the airplane approached the airfield from the
north, overflew the midpoint of the runway and entered the downwind
for a right base turn to runway 8. The airplane lowered the landing
gear and flap prior to initiating the base turn. The airplane was then
observed to slow and start a right bank turn that continued to
increase in bank angle and roll rate. The airplane quickly descended
and impacted terrain.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Arizona entrepreneur, son killed in plane crash in Colorado |
Subject: Arizona entrepreneur, son killed in plane crash in Colorado
Sent: Tue, Jul 24, 2012 4:35:58 PM
Arizona entrepreneur, son killed in plane crash in Colorado
http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/2012/07/23/20120723arizona-entrepreneur-son-killed-colorado-plane-crash.html
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
There have been incidents like this at Burning Man ... in one case the
pilot, flying out of a sea level airfield, stalled as he turned
base/final. My experience there was the ground speed needed to maintain
IAS was different enough from my normal practice that 'it didn't look
right' to me ... have to trust the instruments.
A sad day for the community.
On 7/26/2012 4:35 AM, Philip Nicholson wrote:
>
> TSB Identification: CEN12FA462
> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
> Accident occurred Saturday, July 21, 2012 in Walsenburg, CO
> Aircraft: NANCHANG CHINA CJ-6A, registration: N96YK
> Injuries: 2 Fatal.
>
> This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
> errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
> report has been completed.
>
> On July 21, 2012, about 1130 mountain daylight time, an experimental
> Nanchang CJ-6A airplane, N96YK, impacted terrain near the Spanish
> Peaks Airfield (K4V1), Walsenburg, Colorado. The private pilot and the
> passenger were both fatally injured. The airplane sustained
> substantial damage. The airplane was registered to and operated by a
> private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal
> Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological
> conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated without a flight
> plan. The flight originated from an undetermined location and was
> destined for K4V1.
>
> The pilot was flying to K4V1 to join three other airplanes for a
> formation flight. The other pilots in the formation were already at
> the airfield waiting for the pilot and observed the accident. The
> witnesses reported that the airplane approached the airfield from the
> north, overflew the midpoint of the runway and entered the downwind
> for a right base turn to runway 8. The airplane lowered the landing
> gear and flap prior to initiating the base turn. The airplane was then
> observed to slow and start a right bank turn that continued to
> increase in bank angle and roll rate. The airplane quickly descended
> and impacted terrain.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Air compressor overhaul |
Hi Jill sent the compressor out should hve arrived at your location Tue Jul
y 24 was wounder if there is an update yet on what it needs and cost of reb
uild.=0ABill Wade=0A23 Wheeler Rd=0AEdinburg NY 12134=0A518-775-7431=0A=0AF
rom: Jill Gernetzke <jill@m-14p.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com =0ASent:
Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:26 AM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Re: Air compressor over
=0A=0ABill & Group,=0A=0AWe overhaul air compressors here.- We are also r
e-sleeving the Stage I=0Aheads.- We have not come up with a suitable fix
for stripped threads at the=0Aoutlet valve port, though/- The hole is asy
mmetric, so you have more=0Amaterial on part of the radius than others.-
Helicoil is not a viable=0Aoption, unless someone else out there has had su
ccess.=0A=0AIf anyone is wondering about our support of the Yak & M-14P com
munity, here=0Aare some of the things we do:=0AM-14P:=0A- Major repairs inc
luding prop strike/hydraulic lock teardown=0A- Full overhaul =0A- Accessory
overhaul: =0A--- Magnetos=0A--- Carburetor=0A--- Fuel Pu
mp=0A--- Oil Pump=0A--- Prop governor=0A--- Air compresso
r=0A-Compressor shear coupling repair=0A- Cylinder repair:=0A--- Guid
e replacement =0A--- Valve grinding & seating=0A--- Exhaust por
t repair=0A--- New, M-14P, Inc. rocker covers=0A-Automotive spark plu
g adaptor kit=0A-Nosecase seal replacement ****Flat rate with parts and lab
or=0A-Magneto modifications=0ARewound coils with external capacitor=0AHigh
performance auto points conversion=0A-Hose fabrication--- ---
--- --- --- =0A=0AAirframe:=0A-Hydrostatic testing of air
bottles=0A-Electric trim system: Ailerons and elevators=0A-Tach Board for
EFIS System=0A- Pneumatic system component overhauls=0A-Flap & landing gear
actuators=0A-Flap & gear valves=0A-Uplock cylinders=0A-Fabric=0A- Coming s
oon: New Manufacture Fuel gauge and sending units=0A=0APropeller:=0A-Prop h
ub overhaul=0A-Static balancing=0A-M-14P, Inc. Carbon fiber V-530C blades *
****Running OSHKOSH Special from=0A7/23thru 7/29/12******$500 off a Pair of
Blades=0A=0AParts Support: We manufacture over 300 parts for the M-14P and
Yak 52.=0A=0AWe are working on our new webstore to enable customers to see
our vast=0Ainventory and also shop with ease.- The website will also be
underrehab.=0A=0ABest regards,=0A=0AJill =0AM-14P, Inc.=0Ahttp://www.m-14p.
===============
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Bill,
This was an accident tragic beyond words. Jeff's happy love of flying and the infectious
enthusiasm of he and his son Jack will be sorely missed by all of us
at FFZ. Those of us who were on the ground at 4V1 and watched this unfold are
still in a state of shock and our hearts are broken.
If there is anything to be learned, it is that when things deviate from the familiar
it is necessary to have the right information to work with. It is unsettling
when I hear things like "real pilots can tell when they are about to stall."
True, at our home airports and with average temps and normal loading, most
of us can probably do a beautiful landing every time with all the instruments
covered. But at a high altitude airport, with the outside temperature above 90
degrees, things are different. The accident record in general and this heartsick
occurrence in particular are eloquent testimony that none of us are really
as good as we think we are. We all know that even high time pilots have stall
/ spin accidents. Are airplanes so difficult to control that even very accomplished
pilots cannot prevent this?
By the right information, I'm referring to having information about the angle of
attack (AOA). This concept needs no explanation to those who flew in the military,
but the pilot with a general aviation background is unlikely to ever have
seen an AOA indicator. What the AOA indicator gives us is a net solution regarding
lift, independent of airspeed, weight, temperature, humidity and loading.
What continues to make it hard for me to sleep at night is thinking about the fact
that last week an AOA indicator was installed in my CJ and that this flight
was the first time it was used. I landed at 4V1 less than an hour before Jeff
and the AOA indicator showed that about 10 knots faster than normal was required
on the approach. It is now abundantly clear that both landing and takeoff
involves the correct management of the angle of attack. This will forever change
the way that I fly.
Sadly,
Warren
On Jul 26, 2012, at 6:53 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>
> There have been incidents like this at Burning Man ... in one case the pilot,
flying out of a sea level airfield, stalled as he turned base/final. My experience
there was the ground speed needed to maintain IAS was different enough
from my normal practice that 'it didn't look right' to me ... have to trust the
instruments.
>
> A sad day for the community.
>
>
> On 7/26/2012 4:35 AM, Philip Nicholson wrote:
>>
>> TSB Identification: CEN12FA462
>> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
>> Accident occurred Saturday, July 21, 2012 in Walsenburg, CO
>> Aircraft: NANCHANG CHINA CJ-6A, registration: N96YK
>> Injuries: 2 Fatal.
>>
>> This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
>> errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
>> report has been completed.
>>
>> On July 21, 2012, about 1130 mountain daylight time, an experimental
>> Nanchang CJ-6A airplane, N96YK, impacted terrain near the Spanish
>> Peaks Airfield (K4V1), Walsenburg, Colorado. The private pilot and the
>> passenger were both fatally injured. The airplane sustained
>> substantial damage. The airplane was registered to and operated by a
>> private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal
>> Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological
>> conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated without a flight
>> plan. The flight originated from an undetermined location and was
>> destined for K4V1.
>>
>> The pilot was flying to K4V1 to join three other airplanes for a
>> formation flight. The other pilots in the formation were already at
>> the airfield waiting for the pilot and observed the accident. The
>> witnesses reported that the airplane approached the airfield from the
>> north, overflew the midpoint of the runway and entered the downwind
>> for a right base turn to runway 8. The airplane lowered the landing
>> gear and flap prior to initiating the base turn. The airplane was then
>> observed to slow and start a right bank turn that continued to
>> increase in bank angle and roll rate. The airplane quickly descended
>> and impacted terrain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Exhaust valves |
Chris,
I have exhaust valves for the 285 hp but not the M14P. Jill has them, I
believe she is at OSH right now.
Doug
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:14 PM, Chris Wise <wise@txc.net.au> wrote:
> G=92Day All,****
>
> ** **
>
> Can someone, maybe Jill, Doug, Dennis or whoever can help, please advise
> if you have a set of 9 X M14P exhaust valves in stock and a price please.
*
> ***
>
> Please contact me off line wise@txc.net.au****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks and cheers.****
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Bill,
Not to sound sarcastic or condescending and maybe I misunderstood what
you wrote, but can you explain what ground speed has to do with flying
the airplane?
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/26/2012 8:53 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>
> There have been incidents like this at Burning Man ... in one case the
> pilot, flying out of a sea level airfield, stalled as he turned
> base/final. My experience there was the ground speed needed to
> maintain IAS was different enough from my normal practice that 'it
> didn't look right' to me ... have to trust the instruments.
>
> A sad day for the community.
>
>
> On 7/26/2012 4:35 AM, Philip Nicholson wrote:
>> <pednicholson@gmail.com>
>>
>> TSB Identification: CEN12FA462
>> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
>> Accident occurred Saturday, July 21, 2012 in Walsenburg, CO
>> Aircraft: NANCHANG CHINA CJ-6A, registration: N96YK
>> Injuries: 2 Fatal.
>>
>> This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
>> errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
>> report has been completed.
>>
>> On July 21, 2012, about 1130 mountain daylight time, an experimental
>> Nanchang CJ-6A airplane, N96YK, impacted terrain near the Spanish
>> Peaks Airfield (K4V1), Walsenburg, Colorado. The private pilot and the
>> passenger were both fatally injured. The airplane sustained
>> substantial damage. The airplane was registered to and operated by a
>> private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal
>> Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological
>> conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated without a flight
>> plan. The flight originated from an undetermined location and was
>> destined for K4V1.
>>
>> The pilot was flying to K4V1 to join three other airplanes for a
>> formation flight. The other pilots in the formation were already at
>> the airfield waiting for the pilot and observed the accident. The
>> witnesses reported that the airplane approached the airfield from the
>> north, overflew the midpoint of the runway and entered the downwind
>> for a right base turn to runway 8. The airplane lowered the landing
>> gear and flap prior to initiating the base turn. The airplane was then
>> observed to slow and start a right bank turn that continued to
>> increase in bank angle and roll rate. The airplane quickly descended
>> and impacted terrain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Dennis,
The higher the density altitude, the higher the true airspeed for a given i
ndicated airspeed. So, if the true airspeed was 10 knots higher at an IAS a
t that density, then the corresponding ground speed would be 10 knots highe
r for a given wind also (as compared to sea level). The KIAS you fly in the
pattern should not change with density. I will say that flying with an AOA
is very nice because you always know what proportion of lift you are deman
ding from the wing at any moment. It's very intuitive once you start using
one. If properly calibrated it also compensates for different flap settings
. :-))
Rich
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 26, 2012 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang accident.
th.net>
Bill,
ot to sound sarcastic or condescending and maybe I misunderstood what
ou wrote, but can you explain what ground speed has to do with flying
he airplane?
A. Dennis Savarese
34-285-6263
34-546-8182 (mobile)
ww.yak-52.com
kype - Yakguy1
On 7/26/2012 8:53 AM, William Halverson wrote:
There have been incidents like this at Burning Man ... in one case the
pilot, flying out of a sea level airfield, stalled as he turned
base/final. My experience there was the ground speed needed to
maintain IAS was different enough from my normal practice that 'it
didn't look right' to me ... have to trust the instruments.
A sad day for the community.
On 7/26/2012 4:35 AM, Philip Nicholson wrote:
> <pednicholson@gmail.com>
>
> TSB Identification: CEN12FA462
> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
> Accident occurred Saturday, July 21, 2012 in Walsenburg, CO
> Aircraft: NANCHANG CHINA CJ-6A, registration: N96YK
> Injuries: 2 Fatal.
>
> This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
> errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
> report has been completed.
>
> On July 21, 2012, about 1130 mountain daylight time, an experimental
> Nanchang CJ-6A airplane, N96YK, impacted terrain near the Spanish
> Peaks Airfield (K4V1), Walsenburg, Colorado. The private pilot and the
> passenger were both fatally injured. The airplane sustained
> substantial damage. The airplane was registered to and operated by a
> private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal
> Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological
> conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated without a flight
> plan. The flight originated from an undetermined location and was
> destined for K4V1.
>
> The pilot was flying to K4V1 to join three other airplanes for a
> formation flight. The other pilots in the formation were already at
> the airfield waiting for the pilot and observed the accident. The
> witnesses reported that the airplane approached the airfield from the
> north, overflew the midpoint of the runway and entered the downwind
> for a right base turn to runway 8. The airplane lowered the landing
> gear and flap prior to initiating the base turn. The airplane was then
> observed to slow and start a right bank turn that continued to
> increase in bank angle and roll rate. The airplane quickly descended
> and impacted terrain.
>
>
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
On Thursday, July 26, 2012, Warren Hill wrote:
> >
>
> I landed at 4V1 less than an hour before Jeff and the AOA indicator
> showed that about 10 knots faster than normal was required on the approach.
> It is now abundantly clear that both landing and takeoff involves the
> correct management of the angle of attack. This will forever change the way
> that I fly.
>
AoA is everything. Had an AoA indicator on my first CJ. Extremely useful,
even in botched aerobatic maneuvers. Go to zero alpha and wait until you
have some airspeed.
FYI, for a given loading a given CAS (and IAS) will produce a given AoA. So
if you are at the same loading, you can use IAS as you would AoA. A hot and
high airport will NOT require a different approach IAS for the same AoA.
The nice thing about AoA is that it is independent of loading. Stall will
occur at the same AoA whether you are pulling 5G or 0.5G, or whether the
plane is empty or loaded to max gross. But for a given fuel/passenger load
you will always use the same IAS on approach to achieve the proper approach
AoA.
Your extra 10 kts suggests you need to check for a problem in either your
IAS or AoA indicators unless you had more weight in the plane than usual.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
All true, but ground speed has nothing to do with flying the airplane?
I completely agree with you; IAS in the pattern is IAS and should not
change with density. No question about it, an AOA might have prevented
this tragedy.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/26/2012 1:04 PM, hess737@aol.com wrote:
> Dennis,
> The higher the density altitude, the higher the true airspeed for a
> given indicated airspeed. So, if the true airspeed was 10 knots higher
> at an IAS at that density, then the corresponding ground speed would
> be 10 knots higher for a given wind also (as compared to sea level).
> The KIAS you fly in the pattern should not change with density. I will
> say that flying with an AOA is very nice because you always know what
> proportion of lift you are demanding from the wing at any moment. It's
> very intuitive once you start using one. If properly calibrated it
> also compensates for different flap settings. :-))
> Rich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
> To: yak-list <yak-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thu, Jul 26, 2012 1:56 pm
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang accident.
>
>
> Bill,
> Not to sound sarcastic or condescending and maybe I misunderstood what
> you wrote, but can you explain what ground speed has to do with flying
> the airplane?
>
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263
> 334-546-8182 (mobile)
> www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com/>
> Skype - Yakguy1
>
> On 7/26/2012 8:53 AM, William Halverson wrote:
> >
> > There have been incidents like this at Burning Man ... in one case the
> > pilot, flying out of a sea level airfield, stalled as he turned
> > base/final. My experience there was the ground speed needed to
> > maintain IAS was different enough from my normal practice that 'it
> > didn't look right' to me ... have to trust the instruments.
> >
> > A sad day for the community.
> >
> >
> > On 7/26/2012 4:35 AM, Philip Nicholson wrote:
> >> <pednicholson@gmail.com <mailto:pednicholson@gmail.com>>
> >>
> >> TSB Identification: CEN12FA462
> >> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
> >> Accident occurred Saturday, July 21, 2012 in Walsenburg, CO
> >> Aircraft: NANCHANG CHINA CJ-6A, registration: N96YK
> >> Injuries: 2 Fatal.
> >>
> >> This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
> >> errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
> >> report has been completed.
> >>
> >> On July 21, 2012, about 1130 mountain daylight time, an experimental
> >> Nanchang CJ-6A airplane, N96YK, impacted terrain near the Spanish
> >> Peaks Airfield (K4V1), Walsenburg, Colorado. The private pilot and the
> >> passenger were both fatally injured. The airplane sustained
> >> substantial damage. The airplane was registered to and operated by a
> >> private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal
> >> Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological
> >> conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated without a flight
> >> plan. The flight originated from an undetermined location and was
> >> destined for K4V1.
> >>
> >> The pilot was flying to K4V1 to join three other airplanes for a
> >> formation flight. The other pilots in the formation were already at
> >> the airfield waiting for the pilot and observed the accident. The
> >> witnesses reported that the airplane approached the airfield from the
> >> north, overflew the midpoint of the runway and entered the downwind
> >> for a right base turn to runway 8. The airplane lowered the landing
> >> gear and flap prior to initiating the base turn. The airplane was then
> >> observed to slow and start a right bank turn that continued to
> >> increase in bank angle and roll rate. The airplane quickly descended
> >> and impacted terrain.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Ground speed certainly doesn't ... my point was if you are looking out the window
and are not used to landing at high elevation (+6000' AGL) on hot days, you
will be surprised how much faster you are going relative to the ground than you
are going at 0' AGL on a standard day.
Sorry for the confusion ...
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang accident.
Bill,
Not to sound sarcastic or condescending and maybe I misunderstood what
you wrote, but can you explain what ground speed has to do with flying
the airplane?
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/26/2012 8:53 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>
> There have been incidents like this at Burning Man ... in one case the
> pilot, flying out of a sea level airfield, stalled as he turned
> base/final. My experience there was the ground speed needed to
> maintain IAS was different enough from my normal practice that 'it
> didn't look right' to me ... have to trust the instruments.
>
> A sad day for the community.
>
>
> On 7/26/2012 4:35 AM, Philip Nicholson wrote:
>> <pednicholson@gmail.com>
>>
>> TSB Identification: CEN12FA462
>> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
>> Accident occurred Saturday, July 21, 2012 in Walsenburg, CO
>> Aircraft: NANCHANG CHINA CJ-6A, registration: N96YK
>> Injuries: 2 Fatal.
>>
>> This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
>> errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
>> report has been completed.
>>
>> On July 21, 2012, about 1130 mountain daylight time, an experimental
>> Nanchang CJ-6A airplane, N96YK, impacted terrain near the Spanish
>> Peaks Airfield (K4V1), Walsenburg, Colorado. The private pilot and the
>> passenger were both fatally injured. The airplane sustained
>> substantial damage. The airplane was registered to and operated by a
>> private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal
>> Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological
>> conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated without a flight
>> plan. The flight originated from an undetermined location and was
>> destined for K4V1.
>>
>> The pilot was flying to K4V1 to join three other airplanes for a
>> formation flight. The other pilots in the formation were already at
>> the airfield waiting for the pilot and observed the accident. The
>> witnesses reported that the airplane approached the airfield from the
>> north, overflew the midpoint of the runway and entered the downwind
>> for a right base turn to runway 8. The airplane lowered the landing
>> gear and flap prior to initiating the base turn. The airplane was then
>> observed to slow and start a right bank turn that continued to
>> increase in bank angle and roll rate. The airplane quickly descended
>> and impacted terrain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Copy that!
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 7/26/2012 4:23 PM, William Halverson wrote:
>
> Ground speed certainly doesn't ... my point was if you are looking out the window
and are not used to landing at high elevation (+6000' AGL) on hot days, you
will be surprised how much faster you are going relative to the ground than
you are going at 0' AGL on a standard day.
>
> Sorry for the confusion ...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A. Dennis Savarese [mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:52 AM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Nanchang accident.
>
>
> Bill,
> Not to sound sarcastic or condescending and maybe I misunderstood what
> you wrote, but can you explain what ground speed has to do with flying
> the airplane?
>
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263
> 334-546-8182 (mobile)
> www.yak-52.com
> Skype - Yakguy1
>
> On 7/26/2012 8:53 AM, William Halverson wrote:
>>
>> There have been incidents like this at Burning Man ... in one case the
>> pilot, flying out of a sea level airfield, stalled as he turned
>> base/final. My experience there was the ground speed needed to
>> maintain IAS was different enough from my normal practice that 'it
>> didn't look right' to me ... have to trust the instruments.
>>
>> A sad day for the community.
>>
>>
>> On 7/26/2012 4:35 AM, Philip Nicholson wrote:
>>> <pednicholson@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> TSB Identification: CEN12FA462
>>> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
>>> Accident occurred Saturday, July 21, 2012 in Walsenburg, CO
>>> Aircraft: NANCHANG CHINA CJ-6A, registration: N96YK
>>> Injuries: 2 Fatal.
>>>
>>> This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
>>> errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
>>> report has been completed.
>>>
>>> On July 21, 2012, about 1130 mountain daylight time, an experimental
>>> Nanchang CJ-6A airplane, N96YK, impacted terrain near the Spanish
>>> Peaks Airfield (K4V1), Walsenburg, Colorado. The private pilot and the
>>> passenger were both fatally injured. The airplane sustained
>>> substantial damage. The airplane was registered to and operated by a
>>> private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal
>>> Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological
>>> conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated without a flight
>>> plan. The flight originated from an undetermined location and was
>>> destined for K4V1.
>>>
>>> The pilot was flying to K4V1 to join three other airplanes for a
>>> formation flight. The other pilots in the formation were already at
>>> the airfield waiting for the pilot and observed the accident. The
>>> witnesses reported that the airplane approached the airfield from the
>>> north, overflew the midpoint of the runway and entered the downwind
>>> for a right base turn to runway 8. The airplane lowered the landing
>>> gear and flap prior to initiating the base turn. The airplane was then
>>> observed to slow and start a right bank turn that continued to
>>> increase in bank angle and roll rate. The airplane quickly descended
>>> and impacted terrain.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two family members. My
condolences to Family and Friends.
As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions re AOA guages/indicators.
While British Columbia has lots of mountains, and occasional heat,
most of our high density fields are not in the 6,000'plus range. However, should
my travels take me to such high level fields I should like to be prepared.
When I raced at Reno I always carried extra speed on base and final. Thus, I would
welcome comments and suggestions on type, models and installation of AOA
indicators for my CJ-6A.
Thanks for helping me out with this.
Coop.
--------
Coop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Coop,
=46rom what I have read, the Lift Reserve Indicator is probably the most
reliable angle of attack indicator out there. Here is a link.
http://www.liftreserve.com/
I have mine on the left hand side of the glare shied, basically in the
line of sight for landing and takeoff. It is pneumatic and requires no
power, another plus. My A&P guy did the install in about seven hours.
Installing an angle of attack indicator in your CJ will be something of
an epiphany. At any moment, it will tell you what the wing is doing in
terms of lift and there will be times when this information may surprise
you.
Al Mojzisik's number at Lift Reserve is 614-890-6301 and his e-mail is:
prober@iwaynet.net He is very knowledgeable.
Good luck with everything,
Warren
On Jul 26, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Adrian Coop Cooper wrote:
<cooperairracing@gmail.com>
>
> Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two family
members. My condolences to Family and Friends.
>
> As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions re AOA
guages/indicators. While British Columbia has lots of mountains, and
occasional heat, most of our high density fields are not in the
6,000'plus range. However, should my travels take me to such high level
fields I should like to be prepared. When I raced at Reno I always
carried extra speed on base and final. Thus, I would welcome comments
and suggestions on type, models and installation of AOA indicators for
my CJ-6A.
> Thanks for helping me out with this.
> Coop.
>
> --------
> Coop
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
This company is at OSH. They give a good presentation. The only thing I don't like
about it is they require another pitot tube to be installed.
http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/
Here is another company. I believe they are at OSH too. They do not require another
pitot tube. They use your existing pitot system along with a pressure point
on the top and bottom of the airfoil.
http://advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AOA/aoa.html
They are also being integrated into different EFIS. I know Dynon has one for their
SkyView system but that requires the use of their pitot tube.
I know of at least one CJ with the Advanced Flight System version installed.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Coop Cooper
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
--> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two family members. My
condolences to Family and Friends.
As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions re AOA guages/indicators.
While British Columbia has lots of mountains, and occasional heat,
most of our high density fields are not in the 6,000'plus range. However, should
my travels take me to such high level fields I should like to be prepared.
When I raced at Reno I always carried extra speed on base and final. Thus, I would
welcome comments and suggestions on type, models and installation of AOA
indicators for my CJ-6A.
Thanks for helping me out with this.
Coop.
--------
Coop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
In my 52TW I have Advanced AOA's Pro. It is mounted on the top of the dash just
to the left and in line with the windshield support and my line of sight so
it is not taking any viewing area while flying. My reason for the Advanced and
not the Dynon upgrade to my D5 is that the Advanced tells me audio in the headset
my flaps have been deployed and visually a green donut appears when the
gear is deployed. The multi bar display is easy to see without looking down
at the instrument panel for a small dimly lit useless bar graph during landing.
The AOA is in my vision during formation as well at least when looking left
and flying. And is easy to see in max sunlight. I fly out of 5K to 9K airports
all the time in Colorado. I really can't say I'm all that impressed after
spending gobs of money and time on the installation. I am a IAS watcher all
the time on landing and compare it to the AOA and notice they are pretty much
married up all the time when landing. So keeping coordinated rudder in the turns
and IAS where it should be helps along with a stabilized approach. I do get
impressed with the amount of climb I can pull and still have reserved lift
at max power. Don't get me wrong I like it but it won't fix bad pilotage.
Dale
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379283#379283
Message 17
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| Subject: | AOA , Reserve Lift indicators |
In my 52TW I have Advanced AOA's Pro. Small unseen ports are in the left wing
and a computer calculates everything you need. Display is mounted on the top of
the dash just to the left and in line with the windshield support and my line
of sight so it is not taking any viewing area while flying. My reason for the
Advanced and not the Dynon upgrade to my D5 is that the Advanced tells me audio
in the headset my flaps have been deployed and visually a green donut appears
when the gear is deployed. The multi bar display is easy to see without
looking down at the instrument panel. The Dynon is a small dimly lit useless
bar graph during landing. The AOA is in my vision during formation as well
at least when looking left and flying. And is easy to see in max sunlight. I
fly out of 5K to 9K airports all the time in Colorado. I really can't say I'm
all that impressed after spending gobs of money and time on the installation.
I am a IAS watcher all the time on landing and compare it to the AOA and notice
they are pretty much married up all the time when landing. So keeping coordinated
rudder in the turns and IAS where it should be helps along with a stabilized
approach. I do get impressed with the amount of climb I can pull and still
have reserved lift at max power. Don't get me wrong I like it but it won't
fix bad pilotage.
Dale
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379284#379284
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Thomas,
Just my opinion, but to have solid information, a separate, dedicated
probe is preferred. Not that big a deal to install. On takeoff and
landing, important decisions are made based on this information and it's
the transition from one lift state to another that is being closely
monitored. To my way of thinking, a smoothly responding analog dial
allows for more meaningful information processing than waiting for a red
/ yellow / green electronic chevron to change from one color to another.
Attached are some pictures to illustrate this.
Warren
On Jul 26, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Thomas Geoghegan wrote:
<thomasg@infosysnetworks.com>
>
> This company is at OSH. They give a good presentation. The only thing
I don't like about it is they require another pitot tube to be
installed.
> http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/
>
> Here is another company. I believe they are at OSH too. They do not
require another pitot tube. They use your existing pitot system along
with a pressure point on the top and bottom of the airfoil.
> http://advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AOA/aoa.html
>
> They are also being integrated into different EFIS. I know Dynon has
one for their SkyView system but that requires the use of their pitot
tube.
>
> I know of at least one CJ with the Advanced Flight System version
installed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Coop
Cooper
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:09 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
>
> --> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
>
> Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two family
members. My condolences to Family and Friends.
>
> As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions re AOA
guages/indicators. While British Columbia has lots of mountains, and
occasional heat, most of our high density fields are not in the
6,000'plus range. However, should my travels take me to such high level
fields I should like to be prepared. When I raced at Reno I always
carried extra speed on base and final. Thus, I would welcome comments
and suggestions on type, models and installation of AOA indicators for
my CJ-6A.
> Thanks for helping me out with this.
> Coop.
>
> --------
> Coop
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Advanced AOA is a dedicated probe system. Has Flap and Gear Warning.
Don't worry the lights change fast and takes not much to make them change.
One flight and dials are history. Nothing to think about it's just there.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379287#379287
Message 20
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| Subject: | CJ Prop and spark plugs for sale |
I have two 285 props and hubs for sale along with 18 spark plugs (unused)
along with some smaller bits and pieces for sale. This is from a collection
of things that the owner of the CJ that went down in Spanish Peaks Colo,
Contact me off list.
Scott Andrews
Southwest Regional Director
Redstar Pilots Assoication
602-705-4413
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
I happened to something about this. I happened to own the patent on one of them.
Since expired.
I have no financial interest in any of these.
There are really 4 companies that sell AOA systems; Alpha Systems AOA, Rite Angle,
Advanced AOA and Dynon.
Advanced AOA was originally designed and owned by Jim France, a Republic Airlines
pilot.
The Rite Angle unit, invented by a nice guy in Washington State.
The Alpha Systems AOA System patent was owned by yours truly, me.
The only difference in all the units, is how they gather the information to be
processed.
Rite angle has a rather large probe mounted on the wing. This probe actually measures
the angle of attack. The probe flys in the free air and stays parallel
to the relative wind. Good info, not very attractive probe.
The Alpha system and the Dynon companies are all variations on my patent. Basically,
you have two holes, in a probe. As you fly, one hole or the other gets more
or less ram air. Just as a pitot tube. One hole drives the indicator to the
green, good, the other hole drives it to the red. Bad.
Dynon sells a new pitot tube with the 2 holes. Alpha has a short probe that it
mounted anywhere outside the propeller arc. You need undisturbed air.
Advanced AOA has a hole on the top and bottom of the wing. They are measure pressure
differences between the two. Basically the same as the other 3.
There are good and bad points with all. However they all offer similar displays.
Installation varies only a little.
Rite, mount on the strut or? Run the wire/hoses thru the wing.
Alpha, mount the probe in an existing inspection plate, hoses thru wing. It can
be heated.
Dynon, replace your pitot tube, hose thru the wing.
Advanced, more difficult. Drill holes, mount water drain, then run hoses thru wing.
Dynon and Alpha are the only heated probes.
Each unit comes with its own fun for calibration.
They all give you choices of displays.
Dynons display is in there EFIS display. Not as handy as mounting in your view
when looking outside where you should be looking.
AOA is what really makes the airplane fly. The only thing you need airspeed indicators
for is to know when you can put the gear and flaps down, and rotate for
takeoff.
With AOA you know exactly where the airplane will stall. Remember, airplanes will
stall at any airspeed, altitude, attitude, and weight. But always the same
AOA. There are those that will make the case. For with and without flaps. Fine.
We are talking basics. So you know where it stalls, don't go there.
You will also know exactly where Vx, basic angle of climb. Vx and Vy change with
altitude, AOA for those speeds doesn't change. Maintain AOA and you are always
getting max performance.
When people make statements like, " I've been flying this airplane for 40 years,
I don't need one of these nor do I need to know, or I fly by the seat of my
pants, RUN! I don't care how good you think you are, you ain't that good. The
term, Fly by the seat of my pants, that is where the term smart ass comes from.
My butt is not that smart.
All in all a good tool. Required, should be but no. Keep the nose down. If you
over-shoot final, don't pull and step on the rudder. Show everyone how smart you
are, go-around.
Bill
On Jul 26, 2012, at 4:09 PM, "Adrian Coop Cooper" <cooperairracing@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two family members.
My condolences to Family and Friends.
>
> As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions re AOA guages/indicators.
While British Columbia has lots of mountains, and occasional heat,
most of our high density fields are not in the 6,000'plus range. However, should
my travels take me to such high level fields I should like to be prepared.
When I raced at Reno I always carried extra speed on base and final. Thus, I
would welcome comments and suggestions on type, models and installation of AOA
indicators for my CJ-6A.
> Thanks for helping me out with this.
> Coop.
>
> --------
> Coop
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
On Thursday, July 26, 2012, Warren Hill wrote:
> Coop,
>
> From what I have read, the Lift Reserve Indicator is probably the most
> reliable angle of attack indicator out there. Here is a link.
>
> http://www.liftreserve.com/
>
Many people like the the LRI. Unfortunately, the LRI does NOT display AoA,
at least not directly. AoA is a factor but I was never able to discern what
that instrument was telling me. From what I can tell, it displays AoA times
airspeed which probably is just total lift. Regardless, it is DEFINITELY
NOT pure AoA and cannot be treated as such. If you want AoA you need to get
a different instrument.
The unit I had in my CJ6A was the AoA Pro, now sold by Advanced Flight
Systems. I liked it very much.
See: http://advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AOA/aoa.html
The only negative to this instrument (and definitely a nit) is that it does
not read negative AoA, only positive, so it can't be used on "outside"
maneuvers. For most this won't matter.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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