Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Bill Geipel)
2. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
3. 09:27 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Brian Lloyd)
5. 10:54 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Mark Davis)
6. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Robin Hou)
7. 11:10 AM - Angle of Attack (subject change) (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
8. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Bill Geipel)
9. 06:34 PM - Re: Angle of Attack (subject change) (Mark Davis)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Lift reserve was my patent. It is now the Alpha Systems AOA. Has the two hol
es in the probe. As does Dynons pitot tube. Both holes are getting ram air. T
he gauge or processor are just comparing differential pressure. Same as Adva
nced Pro. Very simple systems.
Lift reserve analog gauge is the most reliable just because no moving parts o
r processors.
As far as inverted indications or negative maneuvers, we actually had a cust
omer place a mark on the glass as to where it stalled when upside down. Cool
idea.
The entire mission of an AOA gauge is to get you on the ground safely, slowl
y and shortest distance.
Thanks for the kind words.
Bill
On Jul 26, 2012, at 9:55 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, July 26, 2012, Warren Hill wrote:
> Coop,
>
> =46rom what I have read, the Lift Reserve Indicator is probably the most r
eliable angle of attack indicator out there. Here is a link.
>
> http://www.liftreserve.com/
>
> Many people like the the LRI. Unfortunately, the LRI does NOT display AoA,
at least not directly. AoA is a factor but I was never able to discern what
that instrument was telling me. =46rom what I can tell, it displays AoA tim
es airspeed which probably is just total lift. Regardless, it is DEFINITELY N
OT pure AoA and cannot be treated as such. If you want AoA you need to get a
different instrument.
>
> The unit I had in my CJ6A was the AoA Pro, now sold by Advanced Flight Sys
tems. I liked it very much.
>
> See: http://advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AOA/aoa.html
>
> The only negative to this instrument (and definitely a nit) is that it doe
s not read negative AoA, only positive, so it can't be used on "outside" man
euvers. For most this won't matter.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Anyone who has ever landed an aircraft in recent history on an aircraft
carrier know that all modern carrier aircraft are equipped with BOTH.
An angle of attack "dial, readout, Heads Up Display" (whatever) that
gives exact readings. Normally with markings on it for flaps up and
down danger areas.
The other is the three light "Chevron" deal with Red Green and Yellow.
These were invented for and are still used for.... carrier landings.
How they are used in civilian aircraft is of course totally up to the
owner, however having "BOTH" is a very good thing.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Warren Hill
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
Thomas,
Just my opinion, but to have solid information, a separate, dedicated
probe is preferred. Not that big a deal to install. On takeoff and
landing, important decisions are made based on this information and it's
the transition from one lift state to another that is being closely
monitored. To my way of thinking, a smoothly responding analog dial
allows for more meaningful information processing than waiting for a red
/ yellow / green electronic chevron to change from one color to another.
Attached are some pictures to illustrate this.
Warren
<https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZG2HidxsMVK8Mhace
PclJS1SvrI9kLHZUUBQ2hJNJoINmsfY7>
On Jul 26, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Thomas Geoghegan wrote:
<thomasg@infosysnetworks.com>
This company is at OSH. They give a good presentation. The only
thing I don't like about it is they require another pitot tube to be
installed.
http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/
Here is another company. I believe they are at OSH too. They do
not require another pitot tube. They use your existing pitot system
along with a pressure point on the top and bottom of the airfoil.
http://advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AOA/aoa.html
They are also being integrated into different EFIS. I know Dynon
has one for their SkyView system but that requires the use of their
pitot tube.
I know of at least one CJ with the Advanced Flight System
version installed.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Coop
Cooper
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
--> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two
family members. My condolences to Family and Friends.
As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions
re AOA guages/indicators. While British Columbia has lots of mountains,
and occasional heat, most of our high density fields are not in the
6,000'plus range. However, should my travels take me to such high level
fields I should like to be prepared. When I raced at Reno I always
carried extra speed on base and final. Thus, I would welcome comments
and suggestions on type, models and installation of AOA indicators for
my CJ-6A.
Thanks for helping me out with this.
Coop.
--------
Coop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
======================
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Bill .....
What a wonderfully written posting.
I am also massively impressed that you actually invented and patented a
differential pressure Angle of Attack system.
Brilliant.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
I happened to something about this. I happened to own the patent on one
of them. Since expired.
I have no financial interest in any of these.
There are really 4 companies that sell AOA systems; Alpha Systems AOA,
Rite Angle, Advanced AOA and Dynon.
Advanced AOA was originally designed and owned by Jim France, a Republic
Airlines pilot.
The Rite Angle unit, invented by a nice guy in Washington State.
The Alpha Systems AOA System patent was owned by yours truly, me.
The only difference in all the units, is how they gather the information
to be processed.
Rite angle has a rather large probe mounted on the wing. This probe
actually measures the angle of attack. The probe flys in the free air
and stays parallel to the relative wind. Good info, not very attractive
probe.
The Alpha system and the Dynon companies are all variations on my
patent. Basically, you have two holes, in a probe. As you fly, one hole
or the other gets more or less ram air. Just as a pitot tube. One hole
drives the indicator to the green, good, the other hole drives it to the
red. Bad.
Dynon sells a new pitot tube with the 2 holes. Alpha has a short probe
that it mounted anywhere outside the propeller arc. You need undisturbed
air.
Advanced AOA has a hole on the top and bottom of the wing. They are
measure pressure differences between the two. Basically the same as the
other 3.
There are good and bad points with all. However they all offer similar
displays.
Installation varies only a little.
Rite, mount on the strut or? Run the wire/hoses thru the wing.
Alpha, mount the probe in an existing inspection plate, hoses thru wing.
It can be heated.
Dynon, replace your pitot tube, hose thru the wing.
Advanced, more difficult. Drill holes, mount water drain, then run hoses
thru wing.
Dynon and Alpha are the only heated probes.
Each unit comes with its own fun for calibration.
They all give you choices of displays.
Dynons display is in there EFIS display. Not as handy as mounting in
your view when looking outside where you should be looking.
AOA is what really makes the airplane fly. The only thing you need
airspeed indicators for is to know when you can put the gear and flaps
down, and rotate for takeoff.
With AOA you know exactly where the airplane will stall. Remember,
airplanes will stall at any airspeed, altitude, attitude, and weight.
But always the same AOA. There are those that will make the case. For
with and without flaps. Fine. We are talking basics. So you know where
it stalls, don't go there.
You will also know exactly where Vx, basic angle of climb. Vx and Vy
change with altitude, AOA for those speeds doesn't change. Maintain AOA
and you are always getting max performance.
When people make statements like, " I've been flying this airplane for
40 years, I don't need one of these nor do I need to know, or I fly by
the seat of my pants, RUN! I don't care how good you think you are, you
ain't that good. The term, Fly by the seat of my pants, that is where
the term smart ass comes from. My butt is not that smart.
All in all a good tool. Required, should be but no. Keep the nose down.
If you over-shoot final, don't pull and step on the rudder. Show
everyone how smart you are, go-around.
Bill
On Jul 26, 2012, at 4:09 PM, "Adrian Coop Cooper"
<cooperairracing@gmail.com> wrote:
<cooperairracing@gmail.com>
>
> Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two family
members. My condolences to Family and Friends.
>
> As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions re AOA
guages/indicators. While British Columbia has lots of mountains, and
occasional heat, most of our high density fields are not in the
6,000'plus range. However, should my travels take me to such high level
fields I should like to be prepared. When I raced at Reno I always
carried extra speed on base and final. Thus, I would welcome comments
and suggestions on type, models and installation of AOA indicators for
my CJ-6A.
> Thanks for helping me out with this.
> Coop.
>
> --------
> Coop
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>wrote:
> Lift reserve was my patent. It is now the Alpha Systems AOA. Has the two
> holes in the probe. As does Dynons pitot tube. Both holes are getting ram
> air. The gauge or processor are just comparing differential pressure. Same
> as Advanced Pro. Very simple systems.
>
Well, not exactly the same. The Advanced Systems Pro uses the wing as the
probe but also uses dynamic pressure (pitot/static) to correct out the CAS
leaving only AoA. That is why it has four pneumatic inputs, i.e. upper wing
port, lower wing port, pitot, and static. The LRI leaves the CAS bias in
which is why I said it is not a true AoA indicator. It is a lift available
indicator, at least as near as I can tell. For those of us who prefer to
fly "pure" AoA, it does not provide the information we expect.
Now that doesn't make it a bad or un-useful instrument, it just means that
it does not provide straight, unadulterated AoA. If you want a pure AoA
indication, you need something different than the LRI.
> Lift reserve analog gauge is the most reliable just because no moving
> parts or processors.
>
Well, the Advanced Systems Pro has no moving parts at all. It is using
solid-state monolithic pressure transducers, a microcontroller, and a
liquide crystal or LED display. The LRI has an analog pressure gauge which
is full of moving parts. Needle, bearings, gears, linkages, aneroid, etc.,
are all moving parts like an ASI. MTBF on microcontrollers is longer than
on analog gauges. But that doesn't mean that the LRI isn't a perfectly good
gauge and won't provide very reasonable life. Just don't say that it has no
moving parts and is more reliable.
> As far as inverted indications or negative maneuvers, we actually had a
> customer place a mark on the glass as to where it stalled when upside down.
> Cool idea.
>
> The entire mission of an AOA gauge is to get you on the ground safely,
> slowly and shortest distance.
>
I find AoA quite useful during maneuvering as well as during landing. It
lets me know how near I am to stall and it lets me set up for lowest energy
bleed during maneuvering if I have the maneuvering margin (best L/D).
I think you and I had quite a discussion about LRI back on the RV-list
about 15 years ago.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
For standard Navy configuration, the three light indexers on the glare
shield only work with the gear extended and are set up for optimum angle of
attack for carrier approach speeds in the landing configuration for flaps,
slats, (wing on a Crusader). The steam gauges on all of the aircraft I few
are marked for optimum AOA in the landing configuration, but were also tick
marked for optimum AOA for best turn AOA (L/D max). The steam gauge was
only used in landing if the indexers failed or in the event of a landing
when the standard flap/slat configuration wasn't being used. (Those were
scary thoughts at the ship. If my memory serves me for a Prowler, it was
157 kts no flap/no slat or 172 kts no flap/slats out and max engaging speed
at the ship was 130 knots.)
Mark Davis
N44YK
Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 9:36 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Anyone who has ever landed an aircraft in recent history on an aircraft
carrier know that all modern carrier aircraft are equipped with BOTH.
An angle of attack "dial, readout, Heads Up Display" (whatever) that gives
exact readings. Normally with markings on it for flaps up and down danger
areas.
The other is the three light "Chevron" deal with Red Green and Yellow.
These were invented for and are still used for.... carrier landings.
How they are used in civilian aircraft is of course totally up to the owner,
however having "BOTH" is a very good thing.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Warren Hill
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
Thomas,
Just my opinion, but to have solid information, a separate, dedicated probe
is preferred. Not that big a deal to install. On takeoff and landing,
important decisions are made based on this information and it's the
transition from one lift state to another that is being closely monitored.
To my way of thinking, a smoothly responding analog dial allows for more
meaningful information processing than waiting for a red / yellow / green
electronic chevron to change from one color to another.
Attached are some pictures to illustrate this.
Warren
<https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZG2HidxsMVK8Mhace
PclJS1SvrI9kLHZUUBQ2hJNJoINmsfY7>
On Jul 26, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Thomas Geoghegan wrote:
<thomasg@infosysnetworks.com>
This company is at OSH. They give a good presentation. The only
thing I don't like about it is they require another pitot tube to be
installed.
http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/
Here is another company. I believe they are at OSH too. They do not
require another pitot tube. They use your existing pitot system along with a
pressure point on the top and bottom of the airfoil.
http://advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AOA/aoa.html
They are also being integrated into different EFIS. I know Dynon has
one for their SkyView system but that requires the use of their pitot tube.
I know of at least one CJ with the Advanced Flight System version
installed.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Coop Cooper
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
--> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two family
members. My condolences to Family and Friends.
As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions re
AOA guages/indicators. While British Columbia has lots of mountains, and
occasional heat, most of our high density fields are not in the 6,000'plus
range. However, should my travels take me to such high level fields I should
like to be prepared. When I raced at Reno I always carried extra speed on
base and final. Thus, I would welcome comments and suggestions on type,
models and installation of AOA indicators for my CJ-6A.
Thanks for helping me out with this.
Coop.
--------
Coop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
======================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
To add to Bill's list, there is also InAir Instruments, LLC's unit:
http://www.liftreserve.com/
For DIYers, there is a homebuilt version designed by Jim Mantyla. Instruction and
plan are available for download here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331233&sid=38853d4c578ba5cb2ce794db84af0d9d
http://www.ronleclerc.net/photos/lift-reserve/lri-probe.pdf
--- On Fri, 7/27/12, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
> From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, July 27, 2012, 9:24 AM
> "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Bill .....
>
> What a wonderfully written posting.
>
> I am also massively impressed that you actually invented and
> patented a
> differential pressure Angle of Attack system.
>
> Brilliant.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:21 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
>
>
> I happened to something about this. I happened to own the
> patent on one
> of them. Since expired.
> I have no financial interest in any of these.
>
> There are really 4 companies that sell AOA systems; Alpha
> Systems AOA,
> Rite Angle, Advanced AOA and Dynon.
>
> Advanced AOA was originally designed and owned by Jim
> France, a Republic
> Airlines pilot.
> The Rite Angle unit, invented by a nice guy in Washington
> State.
> The Alpha Systems AOA System patent was owned by yours
> truly, me.
>
> The only difference in all the units, is how they gather the
> information
> to be processed.
>
> Rite angle has a rather large probe mounted on the wing.
> This probe
> actually measures the angle of attack. The probe flys in the
> free air
> and stays parallel to the relative wind. Good info, not very
> attractive
> probe.
>
> The Alpha system and the Dynon companies are all variations
> on my
> patent. Basically, you have two holes, in a probe. As you
> fly, one hole
> or the other gets more or less ram air. Just as a pitot
> tube. One hole
> drives the indicator to the green, good, the other hole
> drives it to the
> red. Bad.
> Dynon sells a new pitot tube with the 2 holes. Alpha has a
> short probe
> that it mounted anywhere outside the propeller arc. You need
> undisturbed
> air.
>
> Advanced AOA has a hole on the top and bottom of the wing.
> They are
> measure pressure differences between the two. Basically the
> same as the
> other 3.
>
> There are good and bad points with all. However they all
> offer similar
> displays.
>
> Installation varies only a little.
> Rite, mount on the strut or? Run the wire/hoses thru the
> wing.
> Alpha, mount the probe in an existing inspection plate,
> hoses thru wing.
> It can be heated.
> Dynon, replace your pitot tube, hose thru the wing.
> Advanced, more difficult. Drill holes, mount water drain,
> then run hoses
> thru wing.
>
> Dynon and Alpha are the only heated probes.
>
> Each unit comes with its own fun for calibration.
> They all give you choices of displays.
> Dynons display is in there EFIS display. Not as handy as
> mounting in
> your view when looking outside where you should be looking.
>
> AOA is what really makes the airplane fly. The only thing
> you need
> airspeed indicators for is to know when you can put the gear
> and flaps
> down, and rotate for takeoff.
>
> With AOA you know exactly where the airplane will stall.
> Remember,
> airplanes will stall at any airspeed, altitude, attitude,
> and weight.
> But always the same AOA. There are those that will make the
> case. For
> with and without flaps. Fine. We are talking basics. So you
> know where
> it stalls, don't go there.
>
> You will also know exactly where Vx, basic angle of climb.
> Vx and Vy
> change with altitude, AOA for those speeds doesn't change.
> Maintain AOA
> and you are always getting max performance.
>
> When people make statements like, " I've been flying this
> airplane for
> 40 years, I don't need one of these nor do I need to know,
> or I fly by
> the seat of my pants, RUN! I don't care how good you
> think you are, you
> ain't that good. The term, Fly by the seat of my pants, that
> is where
> the term smart ass comes from. My butt is not that smart.
>
> All in all a good tool. Required, should be but no. Keep the
> nose down.
> If you over-shoot final, don't pull and step on the rudder.
> Show
> everyone how smart you are, go-around.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> On Jul 26, 2012, at 4:09 PM, "Adrian Coop Cooper"
> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Cooper"
> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
> >
> > Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of
> those two family
> members. My condolences to Family and Friends.
> >
> > As a sea level resident I am very interested in the
> discussions re AOA
> guages/indicators. While British Columbia has lots of
> mountains, and
> occasional heat, most of our high density fields are not in
> the
> 6,000'plus range. However, should my travels take me to such
> high level
> fields I should like to be prepared. When I raced at Reno I
> always
> carried extra speed on base and final. Thus, I would welcome
> comments
> and suggestions on type, models and installation of AOA
> indicators for
> my CJ-6A.
> > Thanks for helping me out with this.
> > Coop.
> >
> > --------
> > Coop
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Forum -
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Angle of Attack (subject change) |
Aha... DETAILS!
Bet you didn't know that on the Prowler, AOA was also fed into the
Central Mission Computer where it was used to correct for impact
pressure errors on the Pitot Probe itself, thus giving much more
accurate inputs for the True Airspeed computation, giving rise to the
question of just how accurate do you want things to be? :-)
Mark Bitterlich
42 years of A-6's and counting.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
For standard Navy configuration, the three light indexers on the
glare
shield only work with the gear extended and are set up for optimum angle
of
attack for carrier approach speeds in the landing configuration for
flaps,
slats, (wing on a Crusader). The steam gauges on all of the aircraft I
few
are marked for optimum AOA in the landing configuration, but were also
tick
marked for optimum AOA for best turn AOA (L/D max). The steam gauge was
only used in landing if the indexers failed or in the event of a landing
when the standard flap/slat configuration wasn't being used. (Those
were
scary thoughts at the ship. If my memory serves me for a Prowler, it
was
157 kts no flap/no slat or 172 kts no flap/slats out and max engaging
speed
at the ship was 130 knots.)
Mark Davis
N44YK
Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 9:36 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Anyone who has ever landed an aircraft in recent history on an aircraft
carrier know that all modern carrier aircraft are equipped with BOTH.
An angle of attack "dial, readout, Heads Up Display" (whatever) that
gives
exact readings. Normally with markings on it for flaps up and down
danger
areas.
The other is the three light "Chevron" deal with Red Green and Yellow.
These were invented for and are still used for.... carrier landings.
How they are used in civilian aircraft is of course totally up to the
owner,
however having "BOTH" is a very good thing.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Warren Hill
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
Thomas,
Just my opinion, but to have solid information, a separate, dedicated
probe
is preferred. Not that big a deal to install. On takeoff and landing,
important decisions are made based on this information and it's the
transition from one lift state to another that is being closely
monitored.
To my way of thinking, a smoothly responding analog dial allows for more
meaningful information processing than waiting for a red / yellow /
green
electronic chevron to change from one color to another.
Attached are some pictures to illustrate this.
Warren
<https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZG2HidxsMVK8Mhace
PclJS1SvrI9kLHZUUBQ2hJNJoINmsfY7>
On Jul 26, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Thomas Geoghegan wrote:
<thomasg@infosysnetworks.com>
This company is at OSH. They give a good presentation. The only
thing I don't like about it is they require another pitot tube to be
installed.
http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/
Here is another company. I believe they are at OSH too. They do
not
require another pitot tube. They use your existing pitot system along
with a
pressure point on the top and bottom of the airfoil.
http://advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AOA/aoa.html
They are also being integrated into different EFIS. I know Dynon
has
one for their SkyView system but that requires the use of their pitot
tube.
I know of at least one CJ with the Advanced Flight System
version
installed.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Coop
Cooper
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
--> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two
family
members. My condolences to Family and Friends.
As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions
re
AOA guages/indicators. While British Columbia has lots of mountains, and
occasional heat, most of our high density fields are not in the
6,000'plus
range. However, should my travels take me to such high level fields I
should
like to be prepared. When I raced at Reno I always carried extra speed
on
base and final. Thus, I would welcome comments and suggestions on type,
models and installation of AOA indicators for my CJ-6A.
Thanks for helping me out with this.
Coop.
--------
Coop
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
In air is a guy that sued somebody with a frivolous law suit and one, then copied
my lift reserve.
Bill
On Jul 27, 2012, at 12:02 PM, Robin Hou <rmhou@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> To add to Bill's list, there is also InAir Instruments, LLC's unit:
> http://www.liftreserve.com/
>
> For DIYers, there is a homebuilt version designed by Jim Mantyla. Instruction
and plan are available for download here:
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331233&sid=38853d4c578ba5cb2ce794db84af0d9d
> http://www.ronleclerc.net/photos/lift-reserve/lri-probe.pdf
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 7/27/12, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
>> From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Friday, July 27, 2012, 9:24 AM
>> "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"
>> <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>>
>> Bill .....
>>
>> What a wonderfully written posting.
>>
>> I am also massively impressed that you actually invented and
>> patented a
>> differential pressure Angle of Attack system.
>>
>> Brilliant.
>>
>> Mark Bitterlich
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com]
>> On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
>> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:21 PM
>> To: yak-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
>>
>>
>> I happened to something about this. I happened to own the
>> patent on one
>> of them. Since expired.
>> I have no financial interest in any of these.
>>
>> There are really 4 companies that sell AOA systems; Alpha
>> Systems AOA,
>> Rite Angle, Advanced AOA and Dynon.
>>
>> Advanced AOA was originally designed and owned by Jim
>> France, a Republic
>> Airlines pilot.
>> The Rite Angle unit, invented by a nice guy in Washington
>> State.
>> The Alpha Systems AOA System patent was owned by yours
>> truly, me.
>>
>> The only difference in all the units, is how they gather the
>> information
>> to be processed.
>>
>> Rite angle has a rather large probe mounted on the wing.
>> This probe
>> actually measures the angle of attack. The probe flys in the
>> free air
>> and stays parallel to the relative wind. Good info, not very
>> attractive
>> probe.
>>
>> The Alpha system and the Dynon companies are all variations
>> on my
>> patent. Basically, you have two holes, in a probe. As you
>> fly, one hole
>> or the other gets more or less ram air. Just as a pitot
>> tube. One hole
>> drives the indicator to the green, good, the other hole
>> drives it to the
>> red. Bad.
>> Dynon sells a new pitot tube with the 2 holes. Alpha has a
>> short probe
>> that it mounted anywhere outside the propeller arc. You need
>> undisturbed
>> air.
>>
>> Advanced AOA has a hole on the top and bottom of the wing.
>> They are
>> measure pressure differences between the two. Basically the
>> same as the
>> other 3.
>>
>> There are good and bad points with all. However they all
>> offer similar
>> displays.
>>
>> Installation varies only a little.
>> Rite, mount on the strut or? Run the wire/hoses thru the
>> wing.
>> Alpha, mount the probe in an existing inspection plate,
>> hoses thru wing.
>> It can be heated.
>> Dynon, replace your pitot tube, hose thru the wing.
>> Advanced, more difficult. Drill holes, mount water drain,
>> then run hoses
>> thru wing.
>>
>> Dynon and Alpha are the only heated probes.
>>
>> Each unit comes with its own fun for calibration.
>> They all give you choices of displays.
>> Dynons display is in there EFIS display. Not as handy as
>> mounting in
>> your view when looking outside where you should be looking.
>>
>> AOA is what really makes the airplane fly. The only thing
>> you need
>> airspeed indicators for is to know when you can put the gear
>> and flaps
>> down, and rotate for takeoff.
>>
>> With AOA you know exactly where the airplane will stall.
>> Remember,
>> airplanes will stall at any airspeed, altitude, attitude,
>> and weight.
>> But always the same AOA. There are those that will make the
>> case. For
>> with and without flaps. Fine. We are talking basics. So you
>> know where
>> it stalls, don't go there.
>>
>> You will also know exactly where Vx, basic angle of climb.
>> Vx and Vy
>> change with altitude, AOA for those speeds doesn't change.
>> Maintain AOA
>> and you are always getting max performance.
>>
>> When people make statements like, " I've been flying this
>> airplane for
>> 40 years, I don't need one of these nor do I need to know,
>> or I fly by
>> the seat of my pants, RUN! I don't care how good you
>> think you are, you
>> ain't that good. The term, Fly by the seat of my pants, that
>> is where
>> the term smart ass comes from. My butt is not that smart.
>>
>> All in all a good tool. Required, should be but no. Keep the
>> nose down.
>> If you over-shoot final, don't pull and step on the rudder.
>> Show
>> everyone how smart you are, go-around.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 26, 2012, at 4:09 PM, "Adrian Coop Cooper"
>> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Cooper"
>> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of
>> those two family
>> members. My condolences to Family and Friends.
>>>
>>> As a sea level resident I am very interested in the
>> discussions re AOA
>> guages/indicators. While British Columbia has lots of
>> mountains, and
>> occasional heat, most of our high density fields are not in
>> the
>> 6,000'plus range. However, should my travels take me to such
>> high level
>> fields I should like to be prepared. When I raced at Reno I
>> always
>> carried extra speed on base and final. Thus, I would welcome
>> comments
>> and suggestions on type, models and installation of AOA
>> indicators for
>> my CJ-6A.
>>> Thanks for helping me out with this.
>>> Coop.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Coop
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379279#379279
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Forum -
>> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>> List Contribution Web Site -
>> -Matt
>> Dralle, List Admin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Angle of Attack (subject change) |
Mark,
If it was used on the ICAP with the analog Doppler nav computer, my
normal response to a call of "Steering's good" from the ECMO in the right
seat was "Is that steering to East or West Jesus?" : ) I developed an
exceptionally good seat of the pants dead reckoning ability working blue
water ops. My ECMOs finally learned to see if the steering needle was
reasonably close to the nose before they suggested I follow their nav
solution. Smooth sea states and any altitude over 15,000' over land made
the system pretty unreliable. Add that to a ship that never radiated any
navaids or radars the ALQ-99 could sort out as part of the battle group, it
made it interesting finding your way back to Mother at times!
Mark Davis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 12:08 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Angle of Attack (subject change)
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Aha... DETAILS!
Bet you didn't know that on the Prowler, AOA was also fed into the Central
Mission Computer where it was used to correct for impact pressure errors on
the Pitot Probe itself, thus giving much more accurate inputs for the True
Airspeed computation, giving rise to the
question of just how accurate do you want things to be? :-)
Mark Bitterlich
42 years of A-6's and counting.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
For standard Navy configuration, the three light indexers on the glare
shield only work with the gear extended and are set up for optimum angle of
attack for carrier approach speeds in the landing configuration for flaps,
slats, (wing on a Crusader). The steam gauges on all of the aircraft I few
are marked for optimum AOA in the landing configuration, but were also tick
marked for optimum AOA for best turn AOA (L/D max). The steam gauge was
only used in landing if the indexers failed or in the event of a landing
when the standard flap/slat configuration wasn't being used. (Those were
scary thoughts at the ship. If my memory serves me for a Prowler, it
was
157 kts no flap/no slat or 172 kts no flap/slats out and max engaging speed
at the ship was 130 knots.)
Mark Davis
N44YK
Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 9:36 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Anyone who has ever landed an aircraft in recent history on an aircraft
carrier know that all modern carrier aircraft are equipped with BOTH.
An angle of attack "dial, readout, Heads Up Display" (whatever) that gives
exact readings. Normally with markings on it for flaps up and down danger
areas.
The other is the three light "Chevron" deal with Red Green and Yellow.
These were invented for and are still used for.... carrier landings.
How they are used in civilian aircraft is of course totally up to the owner,
however having "BOTH" is a very good thing.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Warren Hill
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
Thomas,
Just my opinion, but to have solid information, a separate, dedicated probe
is preferred. Not that big a deal to install. On takeoff and landing,
important decisions are made based on this information and it's the
transition from one lift state to another that is being closely monitored.
To my way of thinking, a smoothly responding analog dial allows for more
meaningful information processing than waiting for a red / yellow / green
electronic chevron to change from one color to another.
Attached are some pictures to illustrate this.
Warren
<https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZG2HidxsMVK8Mhace
PclJS1SvrI9kLHZUUBQ2hJNJoINmsfY7>
On Jul 26, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Thomas Geoghegan wrote:
<thomasg@infosysnetworks.com>
This company is at OSH. They give a good presentation. The only
thing I don't like about it is they require another pitot tube to be
installed.
http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/
Here is another company. I believe they are at OSH too. They do not
require another pitot tube. They use your existing pitot system along with a
pressure point on the top and bottom of the airfoil.
http://advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/AOA/aoa.html
They are also being integrated into different EFIS. I know Dynon has
one for their SkyView system but that requires the use of their pitot tube.
I know of at least one CJ with the Advanced Flight System version
installed.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Coop Cooper
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:09 PM
To: yak-list@matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
--> <cooperairracing@gmail.com>
Firstly, let me say how sorry I am for the loss of those two family
members. My condolences to Family and Friends.
As a sea level resident I am very interested in the discussions re
AOA guages/indicators. While British Columbia has lots of mountains, and
occasional heat, most of our high density fields are not in the 6,000'plus
range. However, should my travels take me to such high level fields I should
like to be prepared. When I raced at Reno I always carried extra speed on
base and final. Thus, I would welcome comments and suggestions on type,
models and installation of AOA indicators for my CJ-6A.
Thanks for helping me out with this.
Coop.
--------
Coop
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