Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
2. 08:29 AM - GPS and AOA (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
3. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Brian Lloyd)
4. 09:08 AM - Re: GPS and AOA (Brian Lloyd)
5. 09:39 AM - Re: airshow comments (Pete Fowler)
6. 09:45 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
7. 09:57 AM - Re: GPS and AOA (Mark Davis)
8. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (romaine_richard@yahoo.com)
9. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Roger Kemp M.D.)
10. 01:58 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Warren Hill)
11. 02:20 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Bill Geipel)
12. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Roger Kemp M.D.)
13. 02:28 PM - Re: Re: Nanchang accident. (Roger Kemp M.D.)
14. 04:32 PM - Re: GPS and AOA (Robin Hou)
15. 05:29 PM - Re: GPS and AOA (Brian Lloyd)
16. 06:29 PM - Beautiful Yak 52 for sale (Dee Conger)
17. 07:52 PM - Re: GPS and AOA (William Halverson)
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Hard to learn how to push the rudder in a hammerhead with an AOA indicator. :-)
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Bill Geipel
Sent: Sat 7/28/2012 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
Smart aviator. Just need to convince the FAA to get rid of the airspeed indicator.
Bill
On Jul 28, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox@gmail.com> wrote:
Installed a LRI in our CJ about 9 years ago.
It has performed reliably, and was particularly helpful at Truckee Airport in
the Sierras on warm 9,000' density altitude days a few weeks ago. Provides comfort
for a day-to-day sea level pilot.
...Blitz
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 28, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Warren Hill <k7wx@earthlink.net> wrote:
Brian,
What the Lift Reserve Indicator is telling you is the lift status of the wing.
Certainly one of the most critical items on takeoff and approach. It's indication
is independent of density altitude, airspeed, loading, etc. Sounds a lot
like AOA to me. Pure AOA, combined information, whatever... this is all just
chat room semantics. It is an AOA indication direct or indirect and if it adds
additional information, all the better. On takeoff and landing, I'll have my
eyes in this more than the airspeed indicator. It is a lovely instrument, certainly
worthy or consideration by anyone who is looking to move safety up to the
next level. All of these indicators (Advanced AOA, Right Angle, Alpha Systems,
InAir Instruments) add the same kind of extra, very valuable information which
I have come to believe is the right information for these two important aspects
of flight. However, to dismiss the LRI variation on this theme is disingenuous.
Warren
On Jul 26, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
Many people like the the LRI. Unfortunately, the LRI does NOT display AoA, at
least not directly. AoA is a factor but I was never able to discern what that
instrument was telling me. From what I can tell, it displays AoA times airspeed
which probably is just total lift. Regardless, it is DEFINITELY NOT pure AoA
and cannot be treated as such. If you want AoA you need to get a different
instrument.
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Not much interest on the YAK List on THIS topic I am sure, but .... oh well.
Some might get a smile from this ....
In reply to Mark Davis:
> If it was used on the ICAP with the analog Doppler nav computer, my
normal response to a call of "Steering's good" from the ECMO in the right
seat was "Is that steering to East or West Jesus?" : )
AOA was indeed used to correct Impact Air on the nav solution on that model.
However, you're right ... the Doppler was not all that reliable, especially over
water. Until we got our first INS on the Prowler, NAV was pretty darn
primitive.
> I developed an exceptionally good seat of the pants dead reckoning ability
working blue water ops.
Yes, TACAN and RADAR were also helpful, assuming you were not EMCOM
and you had someone who could make that RADAR actually work. The one
you flew had it's roots in the APQ-92 first flown on the A-6A. (APQ-129)
> My ECMOs finally learned to see if the steering needle was
reasonably close to the nose before they suggested I follow their nav
solution. Smooth sea states and any altitude over 15,000' over land made
the system pretty unreliable. Add that to a ship that never radiated any
navaids or radars the ALQ-99 could sort out as part of the battle group, it
made it interesting finding your way back to Mother at times!
Sounds like the USS Midway in the Gulf to me! :-) Anyway......
I had an interesting experience at MCAS Yuma the other day, and the older
military pilots that read this list might get a chuckle out of this. I build jammers
as a hobby, that.... and because I am slightly evil. Anyone who enjoys jamming
cell phones has to be slightly devious. In any case, I built a GPS jammer in order
to test some things at work, etc. Some gents, including the C.O., mentioned that
our particular GPS was "jam resistant". REALLY? Says I. Bar bets started being
made.
Next day, two Prowlers went down on launch for "NO GPS". The point of this?
Well besides winning the bet, the point was here were two jets, with 6 aircrew
with fully operational TACAN, fully operational VOR (yeah we have that now
too ) fully operational RADAR, fully operational ALQ-218 system, and
TWO fully operational Ring Laser Inertial Systems. Neither jet would launch
without GPS.
How things have changed.
Mark
p.s, I was in Iraq a few years back and we managed to uninterntionally jam our
own GPS
while flying a mission. The ECMO got back and complained that without the GPS
working,
the INS drifted. "Really?" I replied. Imagine that.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 12:08 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Angle of Attack (subject change)
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Aha... DETAILS!
Bet you didn't know that on the Prowler, AOA was also fed into the Central
Mission Computer where it was used to correct for impact pressure errors on
the Pitot Probe itself, thus giving much more accurate inputs for the True
Airspeed computation, giving rise to the
question of just how accurate do you want things to be? :-)
Mark Bitterlich
42 years of A-6's and counting.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
For standard Navy configuration, the three light indexers on the glare
shield only work with the gear extended and are set up for optimum angle of
attack for carrier approach speeds in the landing configuration for flaps,
slats, (wing on a Crusader). The steam gauges on all of the aircraft I few
are marked for optimum AOA in the landing configuration, but were also tick
marked for optimum AOA for best turn AOA (L/D max). The steam gauge was
only used in landing if the indexers failed or in the event of a landing
when the standard flap/slat configuration wasn't being used. (Those were
scary thoughts at the ship. If my memory serves me for a Prowler, it
was
157 kts no flap/no slat or 172 kts no flap/slats out and max engaging speed
at the ship was 130 knots.)
Mark Davis
N44YK
Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Hard to learn how to push the rudder in a hammerhead with an AOA
> indicator. :-)
>
But it is very useful to know where the stick needs to be for a clean
vertical up-line. Most people don't realize that they tend to fly their
up-line with slightly positive alpha which causes the line to bend. So the
AoA indicator (one that will properly indicate zero AoA) is especially
useful during initial aerobatic training. After all, it takes awhile to
calibrate the seat of one's pants.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 8:26 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> Next day, two Prowlers went down on launch for "NO GPS". The point of
> this?
> Well besides winning the bet, the point was here were two jets, with 6
> aircrew
> with fully operational TACAN, fully operational VOR (yeah we have that now
> too ) fully operational RADAR, fully operational ALQ-218 system, and
> TWO fully operational Ring Laser Inertial Systems. Neither jet would
> launch
> without GPS.
> How things have changed.
>
I know. It is downright scary just how fast we are moving toward
single-source nav based on something as easily jammed as GPS. It is good to
see the LORAN-C signals reappearing for testing and new modulation being
tested on WWVB. It may mean that someone has gotten religion and we may
have a good, multi-source, jam-resistant, area-navigation system on the
horizon. The Europeans had the right idea when they proposed to use LORAN-C
as the WAAS distribution and backup for Galileo, their version of GPS. Too
bad it never materialized.
About 10 years back I was at Tailhook and was able to actually hold a
Soviet GPS jammer, one of the ones that were being sold on the black market
for about $4000(us). It was about the size of a 3x5 card file box as I
recall. I have this life-sized picture of some ass-hat taking one to the
top of Mt. Wilson overlooking the LA basin on some dark and stormy night
after the FAA shuts down all the VORTACs and taking out all the GPS nav.
Won't everyone be surprised then!
And speaking of GPS jamming, I have had GPS just go away while feet-wet
over the Atlantic. Both my panel mount and my handheld GPS's were saying,
"Satellites? What satellites!" I was left with two choices: DR and ADF.
Fortunately there was a high-power NDB at my fuel stop (Great Inagua) that
I was able to track outbound after my fuel stop. 45 minutes into my
outbound leg both receivers miraculously came back on-line at the same
time. Jamming? Selective availability? Dunno. But it was both annoying and
sobering. People think my insistance on having a good ADF in the airplane
is silly but I still find it quite useful once I leave the borders of the
lower 48.
And people are starting to throw away perfectly good KR-87s. I just picked
up an extra for $100!
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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| Subject: | Re: airshow comments |
I have to say that I haven't had much of that. I've displayed at the MCAS Miramar
air show, the Chino Planes of Fame Airshow and a number of others. Often sharing
the ramp with far more interesting and exotic stuff.
Chinese people are fascinated and ask all sorts of questions and I seem to spend
a ton of time explaining the plane and particularly the gill shutters and its
history to curious aircraft enthusiasts.
I've heard a few off-putting comments but the vast majority of people seem interested
and I even drew a crowd at Chino when I departed despite being surrounded
by Mustangs, Spitfires and the like.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379496#379496
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
That's true.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Sun 7/29/2012 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
Hard to learn how to push the rudder in a hammerhead with an AOA indicator. :-)
But it is very useful to know where the stick needs to be for a clean vertical
up-line. Most people don't realize that they tend to fly their up-line with slightly
positive alpha which causes the line to bend. So the AoA indicator (one
that will properly indicate zero AoA) is especially useful during initial aerobatic
training. After all, it takes awhile to calibrate the seat of one's pants.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 7
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Still off topic, read no further if you don't want to read another sea
story.
I launched off of the Carl Vinson approximately 700 miles southeast of the
Big Island with a TARPS Tomcat to look for an I Hawk site on Lanai as part
of an exercise. Ship in EMCON as well as any Airwing aircraft within 50
miles. Got topped off with gas outbound, but wouldn't have enough gas to
get back to Mother without hitting Texaco again. Got to Lanai, I Hawk site
not radiating, headed home. Mission E-2 to help us get home went down, so
they triple cycled the airborne Hummer. He got short on gas and had to
recover, so no E-2 airborne, leaving me with no nav except the Tomcat's INS.
We were high for best fuel burn. For some unexplainable reason the Tomcat
decided to drop down to the lower altitude we were supposed to meet the A-6
tanker at. The ship wasn't radiating anything and wouldn't answer on any
frequencies even though I told them in the blind that we were critical on
fuel. I finally raised our sister A-6 squadron on their squadron tactical
frequency, got the tanker crew talking and got them headed on a reciprocal
steer toward me, then got an air to air ADF/TACAN cut to sweeten the steer.
I got a tally first on him at my 11:00 and called his turn for a left 180
and told him to get his basket out. I plugged him with 800 pound remaining
well over 150 miles from the Carl Vinson. (For those unfamiliar with a
Prowler, cruise fuel burn is 100 lbs./min.) I'd had my crew clean up their
junk, tighten harnesses and discussed over water ejection procedures and
water survival. I was rather cranky in the mission debrief for the
decision makers that made a peacetime Rule Of Engagement that nearly put an
$80 million dollar jet and crew in the Pacific.
As for the crews that wouldn't launch without GPS, I would rate their
mission ready capability as unacceptable, as would a generation of
Dauntless, Avenger, Hellcat, etc. pilots that had nothing but a wet compass,
stop watch, a navigation board under the instrument and a pair of eyeballs
to judge the winds from the sea state (when you could see it).
Mark Davis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:26 AM
Subject: Yak-List: GPS and AOA
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Not much interest on the YAK List on THIS topic I am sure, but .... oh well.
Some might get a smile from this ....
In reply to Mark Davis:
> If it was used on the ICAP with the analog Doppler nav computer, my
normal response to a call of "Steering's good" from the ECMO in the right
seat was "Is that steering to East or West Jesus?" : )
AOA was indeed used to correct Impact Air on the nav solution on that model.
However, you're right ... the Doppler was not all that reliable, especially
over water. Until we got our first INS on the Prowler, NAV was pretty darn
primitive.
> I developed an exceptionally good seat of the pants dead reckoning
> ability
working blue water ops.
Yes, TACAN and RADAR were also helpful, assuming you were not EMCOM and you
had someone who could make that RADAR actually work. The one you flew had
it's roots in the APQ-92 first flown on the A-6A. (APQ-129)
> My ECMOs finally learned to see if the steering needle was
reasonably close to the nose before they suggested I follow their nav
solution. Smooth sea states and any altitude over 15,000' over land made
the system pretty unreliable. Add that to a ship that never radiated any
navaids or radars the ALQ-99 could sort out as part of the battle group, it
made it interesting finding your way back to Mother at times!
Sounds like the USS Midway in the Gulf to me! :-) Anyway......
I had an interesting experience at MCAS Yuma the other day, and the older
military pilots that read this list might get a chuckle out of this. I
build jammers as a hobby, that.... and because I am slightly evil. Anyone
who enjoys jamming cell phones has to be slightly devious. In any case, I
built a GPS jammer in order to test some things at work, etc. Some gents,
including the C.O., mentioned that our particular GPS was "jam resistant".
REALLY? Says I. Bar bets started being made.
Next day, two Prowlers went down on launch for "NO GPS". The point of this?
Well besides winning the bet, the point was here were two jets, with 6
aircrew with fully operational TACAN, fully operational VOR (yeah we have
that now too ) fully operational RADAR, fully operational ALQ-218 system,
and TWO fully operational Ring Laser Inertial Systems. Neither jet would
launch
without GPS.
How things have changed.
Mark
p.s, I was in Iraq a few years back and we managed to uninterntionally jam
our own GPS
while flying a mission. The ECMO got back and complained that without the
GPS working,
the INS drifted. "Really?" I replied. Imagine that.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich, Mark G
CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 12:08 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Angle of Attack (subject change)
--> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Aha... DETAILS!
Bet you didn't know that on the Prowler, AOA was also fed into the Central
Mission Computer where it was used to correct for impact pressure errors on
the Pitot Probe itself, thus giving much more accurate inputs for the True
Airspeed computation, giving rise to the
question of just how accurate do you want things to be? :-)
Mark Bitterlich
42 years of A-6's and counting.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Nanchang accident.
For standard Navy configuration, the three light indexers on the glare
shield only work with the gear extended and are set up for optimum angle of
attack for carrier approach speeds in the landing configuration for flaps,
slats, (wing on a Crusader). The steam gauges on all of the aircraft I few
are marked for optimum AOA in the landing configuration, but were also tick
marked for optimum AOA for best turn AOA (L/D max). The steam gauge was
only used in landing if the indexers failed or in the event of a landing
when the standard flap/slat configuration wasn't being used. (Those were
scary thoughts at the ship. If my memory serves me for a Prowler, it
was
157 kts no flap/no slat or 172 kts no flap/slats out and max engaging speed
at the ship was 130 knots.)
Mark Davis
N44YK
Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA
believer...but like all good things there are limits. AoA utility best at
the left side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime,
indexers best for approach. What you need to remember is that while the
indexers respond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the
warning quicker than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach
speeds...at higher multiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to
higher input forces. Lesson is, instruments are good, but also listen to
the airframe thru stick...when it's light, treat it gently. No aoa system
will save you if you honk a bunch of g rolling base to final.
On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to get
the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pitot
ice up)
Cheers, Rich Romaine
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Is the horse dead yet?
IAS = IAS regardless Of DA. TAS increases as DA increases. Learn the wa
y the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that learning curve a
t altitude where you can save stupid. Never spent much time paying attentio
n to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting slow at high alpha with a
little cross control would reward one with a sphincter tightened time rocki
ng on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey, a departed A/C was predictable and
was meat on the hook.
Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or botto
m rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does not have a
n ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know the numbers and f
ly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to you on those numbers wi
ll help save one in almost any CAV environment. An AOA indicator is gravey. C
enter the ball and fly a coordinated approach on the numbers coming off the p
erch will keep you from busting your Rosey pink. After all this hobby is a s
elf cleaning oven without much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the weed
s.
Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the wind scr
een.
Speed is life.
Chk 6
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard@yahoo.com" <romaine_richard@y
ahoo.com> wrote:
> After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA believe
r...but like all good things there are limits. AoA utility best at the left
side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime, indexers be
st for approach. What you need to remember is that while the indexers resp
ond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the warning quicker t
han you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach speeds...at higher mult
iple g speeds the issue is less critical due to higher input forces. Lesson
is, instruments are good, but also listen to the airframe thru stick...when
it's light, treat it gently. No aoa system will save you if you honk a bu
nch of g rolling base to final.
>
> On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to g
et the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pito
t ice up)
> Cheers, Rich Romaine
>
> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
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=BD=EF=BDayg=EF=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BD=C6=A1=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF
=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=D8=A8=EF=BDg=EF=BDJ+^N=16=EF=BD=EF=BD*.~=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDzw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF
=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjY^.+-=01=D9=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD
ky=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF
=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF
=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF
=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF
=A2{=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDr=EF=BD=1Bf
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Doc,
With the rotating prop just a few feet forward, would a yaw string on
the windscreen of a CJ be a reliable indicator?
Warren
On Jul 29, 2012, at 1:18 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:
> Is the horse dead yet?
> IAS = IAS regardless Of DA. TAS increases as DA increases. Learn
the way the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that
learning curve at altitude where you can save stupid. Never spent much
time paying attention to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting
slow at high alpha with a little cross control would reward one with a
sphincter tightened time rocking on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey,
a departed A/C was predictable and was meat on the hook.
> Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or
bottom rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does
not have an ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know
the numbers and fly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to
you on those numbers will help save one in almost any CAV environment.
An AOA indicator is gravey. Center the ball and fly a coordinated
approach on the numbers coming off the perch will keep you from busting
your Rosey pink. After all this hobby is a self cleaning oven without
much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the weeds.
> Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the
wind screen.
> Speed is life.
> Chk 6
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard@yahoo.com"
<romaine_richard@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA
believer...but like all good things there are limits. AoA utility best
at the left side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g
regime, indexers best for approach. What you need to remember is that
while the indexers respond quickly at approach speeds, you can still
blow past the warning quicker than you can correct with ham fist inputs
at approach speeds...at higher multiple g speeds the issue is less
critical due to higher input forces. Lesson is, instruments are good,
but also listen to the airframe thru stick...when it's light, treat it
gently. No aoa system will save you if you honk a bunch of g rolling
base to final.
>>
>> On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook
to get the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that
once w/pitot ice up)
>> Cheers, Rich Romaine
>>
>> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>>
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
%=EF=BD=EF=BD4=EF=BDM4}=EF=BD=1Er=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD{=07(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD8^a=EF=BD=0B
=EF=BD=EF=BDD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BDK=1E=EF
=BD=17=EF=BDj=EF=BD=EF=BD',.+-=15=E6=AD=BA=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF
=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=1B=EF=BD=EF=BD,z=EF=BD^=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=D8=A5=EF=BD=D8=9E=EF=BD=CB=9C=EF=BD
=EF=BD=0B=EF=BD=EF=BDT=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BD+=EF=BD=EF
=BDb=EF=BDp+r=18=EF=BDy'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDC=EF=BD
=E5=A1=A7{
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,x(Z=EF=BDP=10>=1A-=EF=BD=EF=BD
Z=EF=BD=EF=BDvk=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BD=EF=BDj+y=EF=BDky=EF
=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C
&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BDjB=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD0=04=EF=BD8=EF=BD=02I
a=01=14=EF=BDT1$=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD+y=EF=BD\=EF=BD{^=EF
=BD=D6=A5=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj)ZnW=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDayg=EF
=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BD=C6=A1=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF
=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF
=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D8
=A8=EF=BDg=EF=BDJ+^N=16=EF=BD=EF=BD*.~=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BDzw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF
=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjY^.+-=01=D9=A2=EF=BD=EF=BDky=EF
=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C
&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF
=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb
=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2{=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF
=BDr=EF=BD=1Bf
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
Certain yaw strings may not lend themselves........lol
Bill
On Jul 29, 2012, at 3:18 PM, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com> wro
te:
> Is the horse dead yet?
> IAS = IAS regardless Of DA. TAS increases as DA increases. Learn the w
ay the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that learning curve a
t altitude where you can save stupid. Never spent much time paying attentio
n to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting slow at high alpha with a
little cross control would reward one with a sphincter tightened time rocki
ng on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey, a departed A/C was predictable and
was meat on the hook.
> Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or bot
tom rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does not hav
e an ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know the numbers a
nd fly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to you on those number
s will help save one in almost any CAV environment. An AOA indicator is grav
ey. Center the ball and fly a coordinated approach on the numbers coming off
the perch will keep you from busting your Rosey pink. After all this hobby i
s a self cleaning oven without much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the
weeds.
> Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the wind s
creen.
> Speed is life.
> Chk 6
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard@yahoo.com" <romaine_richard
@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA believ
er...but like all good things there are limits. AoA utility best at the lef
t side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime, indexers b
est for approach. What you need to remember is that while the indexers res
pond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the warning quicker
than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach speeds...at higher mu
ltiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to higher input forces. Less
on is, instruments are good, but also listen to the airframe thru stick...wh
en it's light, treat it gently. No aoa system will save you if you honk a b
unch of g rolling base to final.
>>
>> On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to g
et the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pito
t ice up)
>> Cheers, Rich Romaine
>>
>> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>> =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
%=EF=BD=EF=BD4=EF=BDM4}=EF=BD=1Er=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD{=07(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD8^a=EF=BD=0B=EF=BD
=EF=BDD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BDK=1E=EF=BD=17=EF
=BDj=EF=BD=EF=BD',.+-=15=E6=AD=BA=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81
=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=1B=EF=BD=EF=BD,z=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD.+-=EF=BD=D8=A5=EF=BD=D8=9E=EF=BD=CB=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD=0B=EF
=BD=EF=BDT=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BD+=EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BDp+r
=18=EF=BDy'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDC=EF=BD =E5=A1=A7{ =EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,x(Z=EF=BDP=10>=1A-=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD
=EF=BDvk=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BD=EF=BDj+y=EF=BDky=EF=BDm=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF
=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF
=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF
=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjB=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
0=04=EF=BD8=EF=BD=02Ia=01=14=EF=BDT1$=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD+y=EF
=BD\=EF=BD{^=EF=BD=D6=A5=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj)ZnW=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BDayg=EF=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BD=C6=A1=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF
=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=D8=A8=EF=BDg=EF=BDJ+^N=16=EF=BD=EF=BD*.~=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDzw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF
=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjY^.+-=01=D9=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD
ky=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF
=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF
=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF
=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF
=A2{=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDr=EF=BD=1Bf
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
And the point is? Answer, no.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 29, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Warren Hill <k7wx@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Doc,
>
> With the rotating prop just a few feet forward, would a yaw string on the w
indscreen of a CJ be a reliable indicator?
>
> Warren
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2012, at 1:18 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:
>
>> Is the horse dead yet?
>> IAS = IAS regardless Of DA. TAS increases as DA increases. Learn the
way the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that learning curv
e at altitude where you can save stupid. Never spent much time paying atten
tion to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting slow at high alpha wit
h a little cross control would reward one with a sphincter tightened time ro
cking on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey, a departed A/C was predictable a
nd was meat on the hook.
>> Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or bo
ttom rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does not ha
ve an ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know the numbers a
nd fly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to you on those number
s will help save one in almost any CAV environment. An AOA indicator is grav
ey. Center the ball and fly a coordinated approach on the numbers coming off
the perch will keep you from busting your Rosey pink. After all this hobby i
s a self cleaning oven without much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the
weeds.
>> Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the wind s
creen.
>> Speed is life.
>> Chk 6
>> Doc
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard@yahoo.com" <romaine_richar
d@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA belie
ver...but like all good things there are limits. AoA utility best at the le
ft side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime, indexers b
est for approach. What you need to remember is that while the indexers res
pond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the warning quicker
than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach speeds...at higher mu
ltiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to higher input forces. Less
on is, instruments are good, but also listen to the airframe thru stick...wh
en it's light, treat it gently. No aoa system will save you if you honk a b
unch of g rolling base to final.
>>>
>>> On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to
get the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pi
tot ice up)
>>> Cheers, Rich Romaine
>>>
>>> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>>> =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
%=EF=BD=EF=BD4=EF=BDM4}=EF=BD=1Er=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD{=07(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD8^a=EF=BD=0B=EF=BD
=EF=BDD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BDK=1E=EF=BD=17=EF
=BDj=EF=BD=EF=BD',.+-=15=E6=AD=BA=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81
=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=1B=EF=BD=EF=BD,z=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD.+-=EF=BD=D8=A5=EF=BD=D8=9E=EF=BD=CB=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD=0B=EF
=BD=EF=BDT=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BD+=EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BDp+r
=18=EF=BDy'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDC=EF=BD =E5=A1=A7{ =EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,x(Z=EF=BDP=10>=1A-=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD
=EF=BDvk=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BD=EF=BDj+y=EF=BDky=EF=BDm=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF
=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF
=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF
=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjB=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
0=04=EF=BD8=EF=BD=02Ia=01=14=EF=BDT1$=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD+y=EF
=BD\=EF=BD{^=EF=BD=D6=A5=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj)ZnW=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BDayg=EF=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BD=C6=A1=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF
=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=D8=A8=EF=BDg=EF=BDJ+^N=16=EF=BD=EF=BD*.~=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDzw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF
=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjY^.+-=01=D9=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD
ky=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF
=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF
=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF
=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF
=A2{=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDr=EF=BD=1Bf
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
>>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Nanchang accident. |
;^))
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 29, 2012, at 4:17 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net> wrote:
> Certain yaw strings may not lend themselves........lol
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2012, at 3:18 PM, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com> w
rote:
>
>> Is the horse dead yet?
>> IAS = IAS regardless Of DA. TAS increases as DA increases. Learn the
way the jet feels at certain IAS and hence Alpha. But do that learning curv
e at altitude where you can save stupid. Never spent much time paying atten
tion to AOA in a furball. Certainly knew that getting slow at high alpha wit
h a little cross control would reward one with a sphincter tightened time ro
cking on the NPO over-ride switch. But, hey, a departed A/C was predictable a
nd was meat on the hook.
>> Base final turn getting slow grabbing a load of G with a little top or bo
ttom rudder will certainly make for a bad day. Since the YAK /CJ does not ha
ve an ejection seat it will probably be your last bad day. Know the numbers a
nd fly the numbers along with the way your bird talks to you on those number
s will help save one in almost any CAV environment. An AOA indicator is grav
ey. Center the ball and fly a coordinated approach on the numbers coming off
the perch will keep you from busting your Rosey pink. After all this hobby i
s a self cleaning oven without much forgiveness for being sloppy down in the
weeds.
>> Surprised no one has said anything about taping a Yaw string on the wind s
creen.
>> Speed is life.
>> Chk 6
>> Doc
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2012, at 12:31 PM, "romaine_richard@yahoo.com" <romaine_richar
d@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> After 1000 CJ-6 hrs and a couple thou ECMO hrs in EA-6B I'm an AOA belie
ver...but like all good things there are limits. AoA utility best at the le
ft side of the envelope ...dial good for high speed/high g regime, indexers b
est for approach. What you need to remember is that while the indexers res
pond quickly at approach speeds, you can still blow past the warning quicker
than you can correct with ham fist inputs at approach speeds...at higher mu
ltiple g speeds the issue is less critical due to higher input forces. Less
on is, instruments are good, but also listen to the airframe thru stick...wh
en it's light, treat it gently. No aoa system will save you if you honk a b
unch of g rolling base to final.
>>>
>>> On a lighter note for other prowler bubbas...maybe we need a tailhook to
get the hook transition gear speed indication (actually used that once w/pi
tot ice up)
>>> Cheers, Rich Romaine
>>>
>>> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>>> =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
%=EF=BD=EF=BD4=EF=BDM4}=EF=BD=1Er=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD{=07(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD8^a=EF=BD=0B=EF=BD
=EF=BDD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BDK=1E=EF=BD=17=EF
=BDj=EF=BD=EF=BD',.+-=15=E6=AD=BA=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81
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=BD.+-=EF=BD=D8=A5=EF=BD=D8=9E=EF=BD=CB=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD=0B=EF
=BD=EF=BDT=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BD+=EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BDp+r
=18=EF=BDy'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDC=EF=BD =E5=A1=A7{ =EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,x(Z=EF=BDP=10>=1A-=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD
=EF=BDvk=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BD=EF=BDj+y=EF=BDky=EF=BDm=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF
=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF
=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF
=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjB=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
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Message 14
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Hi Brian,
Do you have more information about the future of Loran-C?
I still have 2 Northstar M-1's that I just don't have the heart to put into
trash.
Robin
--- On Sun, 7/29/12, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
From: Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: Yak-List: GPS and AOA
It is good to see the LORAN-C signals reappearing for testing-
Message 15
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On Sunday, July 29, 2012, Robin Hou wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
> Do you have more information about the future of Loran-C?
>
I don't have any information about the future. I know that one of the
transmitters is back on-the-air for testing. I am hoping that this
pressages a new LORAN system.
I still have 2 Northstar M-1's that I just don't have the heart to put into
> trash.
>
I am with you that the Northstar M-1 is one of the best LORAN-C receivers
ever produced.
Still, the new signal may not be compatible with old LORAN receivers. Also,
in their infinite wisdom, they are continuing to tear down the old LORAN
antennas even though it appears they are working on a new system. This
means that the new transmitter locations will change the geometry and hence
the programming of the old receivers.
So, please don't hold your breath that LORAN will come back anytime soon or
that existing receivers will work with the new system. But we can hope that
the experiments are a demonstration that someone is actually thinking out
there.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Beautiful Yak 52 for sale |
Just listed on ebay - really nice 52 w/ long range wet wing tanks, new
malcolm hoods - beautiful and a real value at $59K.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170887571254#ht_500wt_1182
Message 17
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Considering that cyberwar with the Chinese and Iranians has already
started, I'd bet LORAN will be coming back. You can't jam it with a
computer virus.
On 7/29/2012 5:27 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>
> On Sunday, July 29, 2012, Robin Hou wrote:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> Do you have more information about the future of Loran-C?
>
>
> I don't have any information about the future. I know that one of the
> transmitters is back on-the-air for testing. I am hoping that this
> pressages a new LORAN system.
>
> I still have 2 Northstar M-1's that I just don't have the heart to
> put into trash.
>
>
> I am with you that the Northstar M-1 is one of the best LORAN-C
> receivers ever produced.
>
> Still, the new signal may not be compatible with old LORAN receivers.
> Also, in their infinite wisdom, they are continuing to tear down the
> old LORAN antennas even though it appears they are working on a new
> system. This means that the new transmitter locations will change the
> geometry and hence the programming of the old receivers.
>
> So, please don't hold your breath that LORAN will come back anytime
> soon or that existing receivers will work with the new system. But we
> can hope that the experiments are a demonstration that someone is
> actually thinking out there.
>
> *
>
>
> *
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