Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - Re: YAK52 compass (Francisco Mendes)
2. 04:54 AM - Re: Yak-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 09/14/12 (Anthony Hudacek)
3. 07:27 AM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
4. 09:22 AM - Yak 18 spinner 52 service legs CJ exhaust For Sale (JimRay)
5. 12:01 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Paul Lewis)
6. 02:33 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
7. 03:53 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
8. 04:03 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
9. 04:11 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
10. 04:28 PM - Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (okanoganlew@gmail.com)
11. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (okanoganlew@gmail.com)
12. 04:33 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
13. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
14. 04:40 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
15. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
16. 04:53 PM - Re: Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
17. 04:59 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bill Geipel)
18. 05:04 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Roger Baker)
19. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
20. 05:08 PM - Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
21. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
22. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
23. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
24. 06:32 PM - Re: CJ-6 allternator failure (Frank Stelwagon)
25. 09:22 PM - Re: Re: CJ-6 allternator failure (Brian Lloyd)
26. 09:35 PM - Re: Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Paul Lewis)
27. 09:45 PM - Re: Re: CJ-6 allternator failure (Dave Laird)
28. 10:33 PM - Re: Re: Re: alternator failure CJ6 (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: YAK52 compass |
Do you require the gyro compasses or the whiskey compasses? Please contact m
e off list. I have installed Dynon EFIS in my yak and removed the compasses.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Hans Oortman <pa3arw@ziggo.nl> wrote:
> Gents,
>
> I am looking for 2 pcs original fully functional YAK52 compasses.
>
> Can anybody help??
>
> Hans Oortman
> PH-YAK
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Yak-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 09/14/12 |
-Hey Andrew,=0A=0A-I recently had a similar problem with my 18T. It was
leaking air just inside the firewall from one of the non return valves. I
ended up overhauling a couple of-=0A-them. Very simple process and the
parts I got from Jill at M14P, cheap too. Just remember to ask for the Yak
18T kits. When you dismantle the valve there is a small piston, a rubber se
al, spring and a-crush washer. Note: be careful not to lose the spring. I
cleaned the piston and bore, replaced the rubber seal and=0A-crush washe
r and re-assembled. No more problems since.-=0A=0A-Yak Driver.=0A=0A___
_____________________________- Message 2- _____________________________
________=0A=0A=0ATime: 08:37:32 PM PST US=0AFrom: "Andrew Park" <andrew.par
k@xtra.co.nz>=0ASubject: Yak-List: Yak18t air leak=0A=0AI realise this topi
c is probably worn thru with you all but Im relatively=0Anew to the Yak and
a little hesitant to go rushing in.- When I went up to=0Athe plane a cou
ple of days ago I did the usual start up procedure and=0Anoticed a hissing
sound coming from the front somewhere.- I also noticed the=0Aair pressure
dropping very slowly.- Opened up the cowls and on the left-hand=0Aside o
f the firewall is a device Approx 250mm long, grey in colour and I=0Apresum
e it's a blow off relief valve for the compressor.- It has 3 pipes=0Aconn
ected to it, one from the compressor, one exhaust which exits to the=0Abott
om of the fuselage and another pipe which disappears thru the fire wall.=0A
The hissing sound is coming from the exhaust at the bottom of the fuselage
=0Aand when I put my finger over it, the air then escapes from around the p
late=0Awhich is screwed to the grey device (I suspect the relief valve for
when the=0Acompressor exceeds the required pressure).- I started the engi
ne to let=0Apressure build up and its stays up to where it should be in fli
ght, however=0Aafter engine shut down the pressure drops away after about a
n hour.- I=0Apresume this valve assembly is the problem, what do you all
think?- If I=0Adismantle the unit, what am I likely to find and what is t
he likely fix?- Is=0Ait an O ring failure, seal etc?- Your help would b
e much appreciated..AJ=0A=0A=0A==============
==================
Message 3
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| Subject: | alternator failure CJ6 |
Was this device hooked in series with the broken wire, or was it connected between
two wires? It is a Trans-sorb. Normally this kind of device is connected
between a voltage supply wire and ground. It's purpose is to help prevent voltage
spikes. When the voltage exceeds a certain voltage it shorts out (conducts)
and typically shunts the spike to ground. I have never seen one connected
in series with a main supply wire.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Paul Lewis
Sent: Sun 9/16/2012 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
Brian, there is no identifing marks on it. I sent photo's to B&C & they said that
they had no idea who made it. I did get some numbers off of the round electronic
piece. NTE 4934 with an arrow that has a bar on the point. I looked
it up on the inter-net & it is listed as a trans, supp 23.1V. What ever that
is? Thanks for your help.
Paul
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:22 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Okanogan Lew <vplewis@community.org> wrote:
Guys, I had an in flight alternator failure today & found a broken wire that
goes from a plastic plug in on the side of the alt. up to the main charging post.
In that line is a small round electronic looking piece that has solid wires
coming out of both ends. The wire broke at that round piece. I am assuming
that it is some kind of filter, but there are no numbers on it. Any suggestions
as to what I should replace it with? Thanks.
Need more info. What kind of alternator? Can you provide pictures?
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 4
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| Subject: | Yak 18 spinner 52 service legs CJ exhaust For Sale |
I'm cleaning out the hanger and have a few parts to move:
incomplete set of carbon steel CJ6 exhaust $400
18T Spinner with screws and adapter $1200
yak-52 Service legs $1000
Photos of items are at:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v624/MGSwifter/Aircraft%20Parts%204%20Sale/
email if interested
Jim
HSV AL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383320#383320
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from the
batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the alt.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Paul Lewis <okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Brian, there is no identifing marks on it. I sent photo's to B&C & they
>> said that they had no idea who made it. I did get some numbers off of the
>> round electronic piece. NTE 4934 with an arrow that has a bar on the
>> point. I looked it up on the inter-net & it is listed as a trans, supp
>> 23.1V. What ever that is? Thanks for your help.
>>
>
> All alternators work the same way. They are all pretty much wired the same
> way. The only thing you really need to know is whether it has an internal
> or an external voltage regulator. Frankly, a lot of people use
> internally-regulated GM truck alternators which are typically rated at 60A
> to 100A at 28V, more than enough to power a CJ6A (and the next 5 CJ's in
> the line up at the same time :-).
>
> (I have yet to see a CJ6A that needs more than about 20A once you remove
> the old Chinese radios.)
>
> So, being able to see a picture of the alternator and any markings near
> the various terminals (oh, the markings on the data plate would be nice
> too) will help me identify the terminals and tell you how it should be
> wired.
>
> If you can get me pictures I will try to help.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Lewis <okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from the
> batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the alt.
>
OK, that is an internally-regulated GM truck alternator. The wire jumper
between the #2 terminal and the 'B' (battery) terminal is for sensing
voltage. You definitely want that wired up. (If you want better voltage
regulation you can run that wire back to your main bus but that will
probably be more work than it is worth.) If that wire breaks it is possible
for the alternator to turn on hard and cause a serious overvoltage event
that can damage your battery and electronics. The other (unused) terminal
(#1) is to provide connection to the idiot light but that also powers the
internal regulator from battery voltage to start up the alternator. You
might want to add an idiot light. It will come on if the alternator is not
producing output. If you don't want to install a light you should probably
install the 10 ohm, 10W resistor in place of the light. That ensures that
the alternator will start right away.
There are actually two flavors of this alternator. One requires the idiot
light or resistor and the other, the so-called "one-wire" alternator,
doesn't. If you have the "one-wire" version you may have to run the engine
up to 2000 RPM or so before the alternator will come on.
Here is a wiring diagram and a good explanation:
http://www.autorewire.com/tech/article/Delco10SInandd.html
http://bob_skelly.home.comcast.net/~bob_skelly/alternator_conversion/wiring_alternator1.html
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 7
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| Subject: | alternator failure CJ6 |
I'll leave this one to Brian.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Lewis
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from the
batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the alt.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Paul Lewis
<okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
Brian, there is no identifing marks on it. I sent
photo's to B&C & they said that they had no idea who made it. I did get
some numbers off of the round electronic piece. NTE 4934 with an arrow
that has a bar on the point. I looked it up on the inter-net & it is
listed as a trans, supp 23.1V. What ever that is? Thanks for your
help.
All alternators work the same way. They are all pretty much
wired the same way. The only thing you really need to know is whether it
has an internal or an external voltage regulator. Frankly, a lot of
people use internally-regulated GM truck alternators which are typically
rated at 60A to 100A at 28V, more than enough to power a CJ6A (and the
next 5 CJ's in the line up at the same time :-).
(I have yet to see a CJ6A that needs more than about 20A once
you remove the old Chinese radios.)
So, being able to see a picture of the alternator and any
markings near the various terminals (oh, the markings on the data plate
would be nice too) will help me identify the terminals and tell you how
it should be wired.
If you can get me pictures I will try to help.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 <tel:%2B1.767.617.1365> (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 <tel:%2B1.916.877.5067> (USA)
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 8
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| Subject: | alternator failure CJ6 |
Paul, it would help if you would also include a picture of the small
part that broke off that you copied the number off of so that Brian can
see that too.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Lewis
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from the
batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the alt.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Paul Lewis
<okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
Brian, there is no identifing marks on it. I sent
photo's to B&C & they said that they had no idea who made it. I did get
some numbers off of the round electronic piece. NTE 4934 with an arrow
that has a bar on the point. I looked it up on the inter-net & it is
listed as a trans, supp 23.1V. What ever that is? Thanks for your
help.
All alternators work the same way. They are all pretty much
wired the same way. The only thing you really need to know is whether it
has an internal or an external voltage regulator. Frankly, a lot of
people use internally-regulated GM truck alternators which are typically
rated at 60A to 100A at 28V, more than enough to power a CJ6A (and the
next 5 CJ's in the line up at the same time :-).
(I have yet to see a CJ6A that needs more than about 20A once
you remove the old Chinese radios.)
So, being able to see a picture of the alternator and any
markings near the various terminals (oh, the markings on the data plate
would be nice too) will help me identify the terminals and tell you how
it should be wired.
If you can get me pictures I will try to help.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 <tel:%2B1.767.617.1365> (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 <tel:%2B1.916.877.5067> (USA)
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Lewis <okanoganlew@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from the
>> batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the alt.
>>
>
It looks like someone might have put a diode in series with the lead from
the 'B' terminal to the #2 (sense) terminal. The diode is probably a 1N4007
and the banded end would be toward the #2 terminal and away from the 'B'
terminal. That is a way to get the alternator to produce about 0.7VDC more
output to raise the voltage to correct for voltage drop across the 'B' lead
going to the battery and/or main aircraft bus. If someone used a smaller
gauge wire from the 'B' terminal you could have a volt or so of drop and
this would correct for that.
Of course, the right answer is to run the lead from the #2 (sense) terminal
back to the bus rather than connecting it to the 'B' terminal, and then not
use the diode.
As for the marking on the alternator, it just says that it is a 24V at 40A
alternator. When you put the alternator back together be sure to push the
brushes fully into their holders and put a stiff wire (paper clip will do)
in the small hole in the brush holder to hold them in place until you have
the alternator case back together.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
Brian & Mark, thanks so much for your help. The alternator was on there
when I bought the CJ. I wonder how they rigged up the drive system? Doug
Sapp was up at the hanger looking at it & was curious. I tried to pull it
off, but it is gooped on with some kind of sealant & I didn't want to break
that. I have ordered new brushes from NAPA, & they confirmed that it is a
91 GMC unit. How do they get 24v out of a 12v system?
Paul
On , Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Lewis okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from the
> batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the alt.
> It looks like someone might have put a diode in series with the lead from
> the 'B' terminal to the #2 (sense) terminal. The diode is probably a
> 1N4007 and the banded end would be toward the #2 terminal and away from
> the 'B' terminal. That is a way to get the alternator to produce about
> 0.7VDC more output to raise the voltage to correct for voltage drop
> across the 'B' lead going to the battery and/or main aircraft bus. If
> someone used a smaller gauge wire from the 'B' terminal you could have a
> volt or so of drop and this would correct for that.
> Of course, the right answer is to run the lead from the #2 (sense)
> terminal back to the bus rather than connecting it to the 'B' terminal,
> and then not use the diode.
> As for the marking on the alternator, it just says that it is a 24V at
> 40A alternator. When you put the alternator back together be sure to push
> the brushes fully into their holders and put a stiff wire (paper clip
> will do) in the small hole in the brush holder to hold them in place
> until you have the alternator case back together.
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
Brian, should I use the 1N4007 diode or the NTE 4934? Both are available.
On , okanoganlew@gmail.com wrote:
> Brian & Mark, thanks so much for your help. The alternator was on there
> when I bought the CJ. I wonder how they rigged up the drive system? Doug
> Sapp was up at the hanger looking at it & was curious. I tried to pull it
> off, but it is gooped on with some kind of sealant & I didn't want to
> break that. I have ordered new brushes from NAPA, & they confirmed that
> it is a 91 GMC unit. How do they get 24v out of a 12v system?
> Paul
> On , Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Lewis okanoganlew@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from the
> batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the alt.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It looks like someone might have put a diode in series with the lead
> from the 'B' terminal to the #2 (sense) terminal. The diode is probably a
> 1N4007 and the banded end would be toward the #2 terminal and away from
> the 'B' terminal. That is a way to get the alternator to produce about
> 0.7VDC more output to raise the voltage to correct for voltage drop
> across the 'B' lead going to the battery and/or main aircraft bus. If
> someone used a smaller gauge wire from the 'B' terminal you could have a
> volt or so of drop and this would correct for that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Of course, the right answer is to run the lead from the #2 (sense)
> terminal back to the bus rather than connecting it to the 'B' terminal,
> and then not use the diode.
> >
> >
> > As for the marking on the alternator, it just says that it is a 24V at
> 40A alternator. When you put the alternator back together be sure to push
> the brushes fully into their holders and put a stiff wire (paper clip
> will do) in the small hole in the brush holder to hold them in place
> until you have the alternator case back together.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> > 3191 Western Dr.
> > Cameron Park, CA 95682
> > brian@lloyd.com
> > +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> > +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Message 12
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| Subject: | alternator failure CJ6 |
Paul,
If you read the part number incorrectly off the small device that broke
off, then Brian Lloyd's explanation is perfectly plausible and could
easily be correct.
If you read the part number correctly and there is no chance that you
made an error, then the device is not a diode but instead a trans-sorb
and Brian's explanation of why it is there is possibly not correct.
Either way, it is no big deal.
Personally, I am not sure why someone might wire up a trans-sorb in the
fashion that it is wired, but I am willing to admit that I don't know
everything in the world there is to know about electronics and someone
might have put it there that knows more about it than me.
Given the fact that it was working perfectly for quite some time before
it happened to break, then I would make an assumption that it will work
just perfectly again after you replace the part. If this is not the
case, then ignore what I am suggesting.
Be absolutely sure what the number is on the side of the thing. Order
one, try Digikey Electronics. It will only cost a few dollars IF THAT.
Get it in, and if it looks exactly like the one that broke, wire it up
the same way it was, and be done with it.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Brian and I will agree to disagree on this one.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Lewis
<okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was
attached from the batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the
side of the alt.
It looks like someone might have put a diode in series with the lead
from the 'B' terminal to the #2 (sense) terminal. The diode is probably
a 1N4007 and the banded end would be toward the #2 terminal and away
from the 'B' terminal. That is a way to get the alternator to produce
about 0.7VDC more output to raise the voltage to correct for voltage
drop across the 'B' lead going to the battery and/or main aircraft bus.
If someone used a smaller gauge wire from the 'B' terminal you could
have a volt or so of drop and this would correct for that.
Of course, the right answer is to run the lead from the #2 (sense)
terminal back to the bus rather than connecting it to the 'B' terminal,
and then not use the diode.
As for the marking on the alternator, it just says that it is a 24V at
40A alternator. When you put the alternator back together be sure to
push the brushes fully into their holders and put a stiff wire (paper
clip will do) in the small hole in the brush holder to hold them in
place until you have the alternator case back together.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
"How do they get 24v out of a 12v system?"
Well that might actually have something to do with the little piece that
broke off.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
okanoganlew@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
Brian & Mark, thanks so much for your help. The alternator was on there
when I bought the CJ. I wonder how they rigged up the drive system? Doug
Sapp was up at the hanger looking at it & was curious. I tried to pull
it off, but it is gooped on with some kind of sealant & I didn't want to
break that. I have ordered new brushes from NAPA, & they confirmed that
it is a 91 GMC unit. How do they get 24v out of a 12v system?
Paul
On , Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Lewis okanoganlew@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from the
batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the alt.
>
>
>
>
> It looks like someone might have put a diode in series with the lead
from the 'B' terminal to the #2 (sense) terminal. The diode is probably
a 1N4007 and the banded end would be toward the #2 terminal and away
from the 'B' terminal. That is a way to get the alternator to produce
about 0.7VDC more output to raise the voltage to correct for voltage
drop across the 'B' lead going to the battery and/or main aircraft bus.
If someone used a smaller gauge wire from the 'B' terminal you could
have a volt or so of drop and this would correct for that.
>
>
>
>
> Of course, the right answer is to run the lead from the #2 (sense)
terminal back to the bus rather than connecting it to the 'B' terminal,
and then not use the diode.
>
>
> As for the marking on the alternator, it just says that it is a 24V at
40A alternator. When you put the alternator back together be sure to
push the brushes fully into their holders and put a stiff wire (paper
clip will do) in the small hole in the brush holder to hold them in
place until you have the alternator case back together.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ===============
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ===============
>
>
>
>
>
> ===============
>
>
>
>
> ===============
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> p.s. Brian and I will agree to disagree on this one.
>
:-) Which I don't understand because I don't disagree with what Mark is
saying at all. But I am working on a posting that I hope will explain the
whole system and why the parts are there, or not there, and why you might,
or might not, want to use them, including the answer to your question about
how a 12V alternator can produce 24V.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
I believe it is possible that the NTE 4934 is part of a voltage
regulation scheme and I would not recommend replacing it with a 1N4007,
but instead would replace it with the exact part number that was already
in there. I would not change any part of the design until the total
design is fully understood.
At the present time a full understanding of system operation is not
present. So either we dissect this thing down to Parade Rest, and then
redesign it from the ground up, or we replace the broken part and fire
it up.
Your choice.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
okanoganlew@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
Brian, should I use the 1N4007 diode or the NTE 4934? Both are
available.
On , okanoganlew@gmail.com wrote:
> Brian & Mark, thanks so much for your help. The alternator was on
there when I bought the CJ. I wonder how they rigged up the drive
system? Doug Sapp was up at the hanger looking at it & was curious. I
tried to pull it off, but it is gooped on with some kind of sealant & I
didn't want to break that. I have ordered new brushes from NAPA, & they
confirmed that it is a 91 GMC unit. How do they get 24v out of a 12v
system?
>
>
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> On , Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Lewis okanoganlew@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> > Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from
the batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the
alt.
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> > It looks like someone might have put a diode in series with the lead
from the 'B' terminal to the #2 (sense) terminal. The diode is probably
a 1N4007 and the banded end would be toward the #2 terminal and away
from the 'B' terminal. That is a way to get the alternator to produce
about 0.7VDC more output to raise the voltage to correct for voltage
drop across the 'B' lead going to the battery and/or main aircraft bus.
If someone used a smaller gauge wire from the 'B' terminal you could
have a volt or so of drop and this would correct for that.
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> > Of course, the right answer is to run the lead from the #2 (sense)
terminal back to the bus rather than connecting it to the 'B' terminal,
and then not use the diode.
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> > As for the marking on the alternator, it just says that it is a 24V
at 40A alternator. When you put the alternator back together be sure to
push the brushes fully into their holders and put a stiff wire (paper
clip will do) in the small hole in the brush holder to hold them in
place until you have the alternator case back together.
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> > --
>
>
> > Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
>
>
> > 3191 Western Dr.
>
>
> > Cameron Park, CA 95682
>
>
> > brian@lloyd.com
>
>
> > +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
>
>
> > +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
> ================
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> ================
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> ================
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> .
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> ================
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 4:29 PM, <okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brian, should I use the 1N4007 diode or the NTE 4934? Both are available.
>
Frankly, neither. More below.
>
> On , okanoganlew@gmail.com wrote:
> > Brian & Mark, thanks so much for your help. The alternator was on there
> when I bought the CJ. I wonder how they rigged up the drive system? Doug
> Sapp was up at the hanger looking at it & was curious. I tried to pull it
> off, but it is gooped on with some kind of sealant & I didn't want to break
> that. I have ordered new brushes from NAPA, & they confirmed that it is a
> 91 GMC unit. How do they get 24v out of a 12v system?
>
I am getting ready to launch into one of my infamous educational postings
here. It will answer your questions and probably a lot more that you didn't
have and maybe didn't want answered.
To my way of thinking it is really useful to understand how an alternator
works so you can understand what all those wires are doing. When responding
to your original posting I was making some assumptions based on best
standard practices, such as, anybody in their right mind would install a
28V alternator in a 28V system, not try to make a 14V alternator produce
28V. BTW, a 14V alternator can produce 28V just by putting a 14V zener
diode in series with the sense lead, looking a whole lot like what you have
there. Frankly, that is a hack and not something I would do in an aircraft
(or car, or anything else I cared about) but it certainly would work. (And
some places sell zener diodes and call them "trans-sorbs".)
But here is the $64 question, do you want the long answer and my opinion of
what you should do with your alternator?
And no I don't disagree with Mark at all on this. I am sure he can write
what I was going to write just as well as I could.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
My hair hurts just reading this!
On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:31 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> If you read the part number incorrectly off the small device that broke
> off, then Brian Lloyd's explanation is perfectly plausible and could
> easily be correct.
>
> If you read the part number correctly and there is no chance that you
> made an error, then the device is not a diode but instead a trans-sorb
> and Brian's explanation of why it is there is possibly not correct.
> Either way, it is no big deal.
>
> Personally, I am not sure why someone might wire up a trans-sorb in the
> fashion that it is wired, but I am willing to admit that I don't know
> everything in the world there is to know about electronics and someone
> might have put it there that knows more about it than me.
>
> Given the fact that it was working perfectly for quite some time before
> it happened to break, then I would make an assumption that it will work
> just perfectly again after you replace the part. If this is not the
> case, then ignore what I am suggesting.
>
> Be absolutely sure what the number is on the side of the thing. Order
> one, try Digikey Electronics. It will only cost a few dollars IF THAT.
>
>
> Get it in, and if it looks exactly like the one that broke, wire it up
> the same way it was, and be done with it.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
> p.s. Brian and I will agree to disagree on this one.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 7:09 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Lewis
> <okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was
> attached from the batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the
> side of the alt.
>
>
>
> It looks like someone might have put a diode in series with the lead
> from the 'B' terminal to the #2 (sense) terminal. The diode is probably
> a 1N4007 and the banded end would be toward the #2 terminal and away
> from the 'B' terminal. That is a way to get the alternator to produce
> about 0.7VDC more output to raise the voltage to correct for voltage
> drop across the 'B' lead going to the battery and/or main aircraft bus.
> If someone used a smaller gauge wire from the 'B' terminal you could
> have a volt or so of drop and this would correct for that.
>
> Of course, the right answer is to run the lead from the #2 (sense)
> terminal back to the bus rather than connecting it to the 'B' terminal,
> and then not use the diode.
>
> As for the marking on the alternator, it just says that it is a 24V at
> 40A alternator. When you put the alternator back together be sure to
> push the brushes fully into their holders and put a stiff wire (paper
> clip will do) in the small hole in the brush holder to hold them in
> place until you have the alternator case back together.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
As my neighbor/landlord back in Mineral Wells, Texas said to me many years ago,
"ain't 'lectricty funny stuff?". He knew.
Roger
On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:47 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
wrote:
>
> I believe it is possible that the NTE 4934 is part of a voltage
> regulation scheme and I would not recommend replacing it with a 1N4007,
> but instead would replace it with the exact part number that was already
> in there. I would not change any part of the design until the total
> design is fully understood.
>
> At the present time a full understanding of system operation is not
> present. So either we dissect this thing down to Parade Rest, and then
> redesign it from the ground up, or we replace the broken part and fire
> it up.
>
> Your choice.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> okanoganlew@gmail.com
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 7:29 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
>
> Brian, should I use the 1N4007 diode or the NTE 4934? Both are
> available.
>
> On , okanoganlew@gmail.com wrote:
>> Brian & Mark, thanks so much for your help. The alternator was on
> there when I bought the CJ. I wonder how they rigged up the drive
> system? Doug Sapp was up at the hanger looking at it & was curious. I
> tried to pull it off, but it is gooped on with some kind of sealant & I
> didn't want to break that. I have ordered new brushes from NAPA, & they
> confirmed that it is a 91 GMC unit. How do they get 24v out of a 12v
> system?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On , Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Paul Lewis okanoganlew@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Brian & Mark, photo's enclosed. The broken wire was attached from
> the batt. post on the alt. to the bayonet fitting on the side of the
> alt.
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> It looks like someone might have put a diode in series with the lead
> from the 'B' terminal to the #2 (sense) terminal. The diode is probably
> a 1N4007 and the banded end would be toward the #2 terminal and away
> from the 'B' terminal. That is a way to get the alternator to produce
> about 0.7VDC more output to raise the voltage to correct for voltage
> drop across the 'B' lead going to the battery and/or main aircraft bus.
> If someone used a smaller gauge wire from the 'B' terminal you could
> have a volt or so of drop and this would correct for that.
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Of course, the right answer is to run the lead from the #2 (sense)
> terminal back to the bus rather than connecting it to the 'B' terminal,
> and then not use the diode.
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> As for the marking on the alternator, it just says that it is a 24V
> at 40A alternator. When you put the alternator back together be sure to
> push the brushes fully into their holders and put a stiff wire (paper
> clip will do) in the small hole in the brush holder to hold them in
> place until you have the alternator case back together.
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> --
>>
>>
>>> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
>>
>>
>>> 3191 Western Dr.
>>
>>
>>> Cameron Park, CA 95682
>>
>>
>>> brian@lloyd.com
>>
>>
>>> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
>>
>>
>>> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Roger E. Baker, Managing Director
Panadero Energy Components, LLC
dba PEC AirAssist
760/809-5506
760/730-9244
760/454-4595 fax
f4ffm2@roadrunner.com
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> I believe it is possible that the NTE 4934 is part of a voltage
> regulation scheme and I would not recommend replacing it with a 1N4007,
> but instead would replace it with the exact part number that was already
> in there. I would not change any part of the design until the total
> design is fully understood.
>
> At the present time a full understanding of system operation is not
> present. So either we dissect this thing down to Parade Rest, and then
> redesign it from the ground up, or we replace the broken part and fire
> it up.
>
> Your choice.
>
I agree with Mark. But my feeling is that the right answer is to indeed
make sure that this has been done right rather than just replace the part
and move off, fat, dumb, and happy.
These internally-regulated GM alternators are dirt-cheap sources of power.
They are also super simple. The built-in regulator controls the output of
the alternator to keep its voltage at the desired level, i.e. around 14V
(usually 13.7V) for a system with a 12V battery, or around 28V (usually
27.4V) for a system with a 24V battery. You can even make a 14v alternator
into a 28V alternator by putting a 14V zener diode in series with the sense
lead to the regulator, make the regulator see a voltage that is 14V below
the bus voltage.
Now here is the real kicker and the thing you really need to think about.
When the voltage regulator in these alternators fail, it can fail one of
two ways:
1. The output of the alternator can drop to zero and you are running on
battery power only.
2. The output of the alternator can jump up to about 100V quickly
destroying the battery and shortly thereafter, everything else in the
electrical system.
Frankly, failure #2 bothers the heck out of me. No, it doesn't happen very
often so maybe you don't have to worry about it ... much.
FWIW, this is the reason that you almost never find internally-regulated
alternators in aircraft unless the alternator has a fail-safe way to
interrupt the current to the field (rotor) winding in the alternator. The
stock GM alternator does not offer that. On my boat where I had a pair of
these alternators to handle the battery charging chores, I opted to modify
the alternators to remove the internal regulator and control them from an
external regulator that had overvoltage protection, just like the standard
charging systems in production aircraft.
Anyway, I am willing to expound further if you are interested.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6@mesanetworks.net>wrote:
>
> My hair hurts just reading this!
>
I know Bill. I can feel your pain from here.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
OK! Tact is not exactly my strong point, but I was doing my best to
exercise it.
Brian said:
"Frankly, that is a hack and not something I would do in an aircraft (or
car, or anything else I cared about) but it certainly would work. (And
some places sell zener diodes and call them "trans-sorbs".)"
This was in fact the point I was trying to make an angular approach to.
A trans-sorb can work in much the same way as a zener diode.
The part that broke was more than likely used to make the 14 volt
alternator produce 24 volts. Is this the best way to do it? No.
However, it obviously works. No, I would not do it that way if I were
designing it, and neither would Brian. But then there are a lot of
designs I don't agree with and some come from major manufacturers, so
there you go.
I am perfectly content to read Brian's description of how to do it
better, and I am also sure it will be 100% accurate.
My only purpose in getting involved again was to iron out what the part
was doing ....that broke...... which was your original question.
Best regards,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 4:29 PM, <okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
Brian, should I use the 1N4007 diode or the NTE 4934? Both are
available.
Frankly, neither. More below.
On , okanoganlew@gmail.com wrote:
> Brian & Mark, thanks so much for your help. The alternator was
on there when I bought the CJ. I wonder how they rigged up the drive
system? Doug Sapp was up at the hanger looking at it & was curious. I
tried to pull it off, but it is gooped on with some kind of sealant & I
didn't want to break that. I have ordered new brushes from NAPA, & they
confirmed that it is a 91 GMC unit. How do they get 24v out of a 12v
system?
I am getting ready to launch into one of my infamous educational
postings here. It will answer your questions and probably a lot more
that you didn't have and maybe didn't want answered.
To my way of thinking it is really useful to understand how an
alternator works so you can understand what all those wires are doing.
When responding to your original posting I was making some assumptions
based on best standard practices, such as, anybody in their right mind
would install a 28V alternator in a 28V system, not try to make a 14V
alternator produce 28V. BTW, a 14V alternator can produce 28V just by
putting a 14V zener diode in series with the sense lead, looking a whole
lot like what you have there. Frankly, that is a hack and not something
I would do in an aircraft (or car, or anything else I cared about) but
it certainly would work. (And some places sell zener diodes and call
them "trans-sorbs".)
But here is the $64 question, do you want the long answer and my opinion
of what you should do with your alternator?
And no I don't disagree with Mark at all on this. I am sure he can write
what I was going to write just as well as I could.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
A proper alternator with a proper external regulator (with over-voltage
control) is indeed the ONLY thing that should be installed in an
aircraft where life and property are the driving factors.
Of course that is just my personal opinion.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I believe it is possible that the NTE 4934 is part of a voltage
regulation scheme and I would not recommend replacing it with a
1N4007,
but instead would replace it with the exact part number that was
already
in there. I would not change any part of the design until the
total
design is fully understood.
At the present time a full understanding of system operation is
not
present. So either we dissect this thing down to Parade Rest,
and then
redesign it from the ground up, or we replace the broken part
and fire
it up.
Your choice.
I agree with Mark. But my feeling is that the right answer is to indeed
make sure that this has been done right rather than just replace the
part and move off, fat, dumb, and happy.
These internally-regulated GM alternators are dirt-cheap sources of
power. They are also super simple. The built-in regulator controls the
output of the alternator to keep its voltage at the desired level, i.e.
around 14V (usually 13.7V) for a system with a 12V battery, or around
28V (usually 27.4V) for a system with a 24V battery. You can even make a
14v alternator into a 28V alternator by putting a 14V zener diode in
series with the sense lead to the regulator, make the regulator see a
voltage that is 14V below the bus voltage.
Now here is the real kicker and the thing you really need to think
about. When the voltage regulator in these alternators fail, it can fail
one of two ways:
1. The output of the alternator can drop to zero and you are
running on battery power only.
2. The output of the alternator can jump up to about 100V quickly
destroying the battery and shortly thereafter, everything else in the
electrical system.
Frankly, failure #2 bothers the heck out of me. No, it doesn't happen
very often so maybe you don't have to worry about it ... much.
FWIW, this is the reason that you almost never find internally-regulated
alternators in aircraft unless the alternator has a fail-safe way to
interrupt the current to the field (rotor) winding in the alternator.
The stock GM alternator does not offer that. On my boat where I had a
pair of these alternators to handle the battery charging chores, I opted
to modify the alternators to remove the internal regulator and control
them from an external regulator that had overvoltage protection, just
like the standard charging systems in production aircraft.
Anyway, I am willing to expound further if you are interested.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
And by the way, I did not mean to exclude properly designed generator
systems as well. The original Russian designed system is just fine by
me, except for the weight, lack of parts, etc. It is also sort of
complex for the uninitiated.
At this point I will insert an obvious plug for the B&C SK35 and SK50
Alternators.
They're great. Worth every cent. Use an external regulator with
over-voltage protection, and have GREAT customer service and the company
is owned by one heck of a nice guy. Not cheap. But you DO get what you
pay for.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 8:22 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
A proper alternator with a proper external regulator (with over-voltage
control) is indeed the ONLY thing that should be installed in an
aircraft where life and property are the driving factors.
Of course that is just my personal opinion.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
I believe it is possible that the NTE 4934 is part of a voltage
regulation scheme and I would not recommend replacing it with a
1N4007,
but instead would replace it with the exact part number that was
already
in there. I would not change any part of the design until the
total
design is fully understood.
At the present time a full understanding of system operation is
not
present. So either we dissect this thing down to Parade Rest,
and then
redesign it from the ground up, or we replace the broken part
and fire
it up.
Your choice.
I agree with Mark. But my feeling is that the right answer is to indeed
make sure that this has been done right rather than just replace the
part and move off, fat, dumb, and happy.
These internally-regulated GM alternators are dirt-cheap sources of
power. They are also super simple. The built-in regulator controls the
output of the alternator to keep its voltage at the desired level, i.e.
around 14V (usually 13.7V) for a system with a 12V battery, or around
28V (usually 27.4V) for a system with a 24V battery. You can even make a
14v alternator into a 28V alternator by putting a 14V zener diode in
series with the sense lead to the regulator, make the regulator see a
voltage that is 14V below the bus voltage.
Now here is the real kicker and the thing you really need to think
about. When the voltage regulator in these alternators fail, it can fail
one of two ways:
1. The output of the alternator can drop to zero and you are
running on battery power only.
2. The output of the alternator can jump up to about 100V quickly
destroying the battery and shortly thereafter, everything else in the
electrical system.
Frankly, failure #2 bothers the heck out of me. No, it doesn't happen
very often so maybe you don't have to worry about it ... much.
FWIW, this is the reason that you almost never find internally-regulated
alternators in aircraft unless the alternator has a fail-safe way to
interrupt the current to the field (rotor) winding in the alternator.
The stock GM alternator does not offer that. On my boat where I had a
pair of these alternators to handle the battery charging chores, I opted
to modify the alternators to remove the internal regulator and control
them from an external regulator that had overvoltage protection, just
like the standard charging systems in production aircraft.
Anyway, I am willing to expound further if you are interested.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 24
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| Subject: | RE: CJ-6 allternator failure |
If I remember correctly that was an old mod that somebody was pushing to
use GM 24 volt truck alternators. Basically they used the front of a CJ
generator shaft grafted on the front of the GM alternator to get the
correct drive. Since there is no oil seal in the CJ drive (it is in the
generator) they glued the alternator into the CJ cavity with RTV or
something similar and relied on the alternator sealed front bearing for
the oil seal. As you say no over-voltage protection for expensive
avionics and your battery. I think Jim Selby had one kicking around in
his hangar at one time, don't know what happened to it as no one wanted
to use it. From what I have seen of the B&C setup it is the way to go.
Frank
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: RE: CJ-6 allternator failure |
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Frank Stelwagon
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>wrote:
> **
> If I remember correctly that was an old mod that somebody was pushing to
> use GM 24 volt truck alternators. Basically they used the front of a CJ
> generator shaft grafted on the front of the GM alternator to get the
> correct drive. Since there is no oil seal in the CJ drive (it is in the
> generator) they glued the alternator into the CJ cavity with RTV or
> something similar and relied on the alternator sealed front bearing for the
> oil seal. As you say no over-voltage protection for expensive avionics and
> your battery. I think Jim Selby had one kicking around in his hangar at
> one time, don't know what happened to it as no one wanted to use it. From
> what I have seen of the B&C setup it is the way to go.
>
I had the 24V GM alternator on my CJ. The mod was done by Yakity Yaks. They
used an adaptor plate with a shaft seal in it to prevent oil loss, which
seemed to me like a reasonable approach. I was concerned about the lack of
OV protection and had started on designing OV protection when I sold my
plane.
It is possible to provide OV protection for an internally-regulated
alternator by providing an alternator contactor that opens in the case of
an OV event, disconnecting the alternator from the bus. There is a good
chance that the diodes and possibly the regulator in the alternator will
fail in that case but replacing those components is relatively easy and far
cheaper than even replacing the battery, let alone all the other electrical
components. After all, we are talking about a failed alternator anyway so
having to replace the diodes and regulator module is a small price to pay.
It is also relatively easy to remove the internal regulator module and
bring the field connection out to the #1 and #2 terminals to make it easy
to connect to an external regulator.
But if one wants a turn-key solution, I have to agree that B&C is far and
away the best.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
Brian, I am curious as to how you would convert to an external regulator?
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,
MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
> MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> And by the way, I did not mean to exclude properly designed generator
> systems as well. The original Russian designed system is just fine by
> me, except for the weight, lack of parts, etc. It is also sort of
> complex for the uninitiated.
>
> At this point I will insert an obvious plug for the B&C SK35 and SK50
> Alternators.
>
> They're great. Worth every cent. Use an external regulator with
> over-voltage protection, and have GREAT customer service and the company
> is owned by one heck of a nice guy. Not cheap. But you DO get what you
> pay for.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich,
> Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 8:22 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Re: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
>
> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> A proper alternator with a proper external regulator (with over-voltage
> control) is indeed the ONLY thing that should be installed in an
> aircraft where life and property are the driving factors.
>
> Of course that is just my personal opinion.
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 8:06 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Yak-List: alternator failure CJ6
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry
> Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
>
>
> Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
>
> I believe it is possible that the NTE 4934 is part of a voltage
> regulation scheme and I would not recommend replacing it with a
> 1N4007,
> but instead would replace it with the exact part number that was
> already
> in there. I would not change any part of the design until the
> total
> design is fully understood.
>
> At the present time a full understanding of system operation is
> not
> present. So either we dissect this thing down to Parade Rest,
> and then
> redesign it from the ground up, or we replace the broken part
> and fire
> it up.
>
> Your choice.
>
>
> I agree with Mark. But my feeling is that the right answer is to indeed
> make sure that this has been done right rather than just replace the
> part and move off, fat, dumb, and happy.
>
> These internally-regulated GM alternators are dirt-cheap sources of
> power. They are also super simple. The built-in regulator controls the
> output of the alternator to keep its voltage at the desired level, i.e.
> around 14V (usually 13.7V) for a system with a 12V battery, or around
> 28V (usually 27.4V) for a system with a 24V battery. You can even make a
> 14v alternator into a 28V alternator by putting a 14V zener diode in
> series with the sense lead to the regulator, make the regulator see a
> voltage that is 14V below the bus voltage.
>
> Now here is the real kicker and the thing you really need to think
> about. When the voltage regulator in these alternators fail, it can fail
> one of two ways:
>
> 1. The output of the alternator can drop to zero and you are
> running on battery power only.
> 2. The output of the alternator can jump up to about 100V quickly
> destroying the battery and shortly thereafter, everything else in the
> electrical system.
>
> Frankly, failure #2 bothers the heck out of me. No, it doesn't happen
> very often so maybe you don't have to worry about it ... much.
>
> FWIW, this is the reason that you almost never find internally-regulated
> alternators in aircraft unless the alternator has a fail-safe way to
> interrupt the current to the field (rotor) winding in the alternator.
> The stock GM alternator does not offer that. On my boat where I had a
> pair of these alternators to handle the battery charging chores, I opted
> to modify the alternators to remove the internal regulator and control
> them from an external regulator that had overvoltage protection, just
> like the standard charging systems in production aircraft.
>
> Anyway, I am willing to expound further if you are interested.
>
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: RE: CJ-6 allternator failure |
I have Brian's great CJ... I did end up replacing the Delco with the B&C..
.
He totally knows what he is talking about when it comes to electrical system
s on airplanes and most other things as well...
Dave Laird
Current caretaker of
N63536
Sent from my iPhone.
On Sep 17, 2012, at 11:19 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon@earthlink.ne
t> wrote:
> If I remember correctly that was an old mod that somebody was pushing to u
se GM 24 volt truck alternators. Basically they used the front of a CJ gen
erator shaft grafted on the front of the GM alternator to get the correct dr
ive. Since there is no oil seal in the CJ drive (it is in the generator) th
ey glued the alternator into the CJ cavity with RTV or something similar and
relied on the alternator sealed front bearing for the oil seal. As you say
no over-voltage protection for expensive avionics and your battery. I thin
k Jim Selby had one kicking around in his hangar at one time, don't know wha
t happened to it as no one wanted to use it. =46rom what I have seen of the
B&C setup it is the way to go.
>
> I had the 24V GM alternator on my CJ. The mod was done by Yakity Yaks. The
y used an adaptor plate with a shaft seal in it to prevent oil loss, which s
eemed to me like a reasonable approach. I was concerned about the lack of OV
protection and had started on designing OV protection when I sold my plane.
>
> It is possible to provide OV protection for an internally-regulated altern
ator by providing an alternator contactor that opens in the case of an OV ev
ent, disconnecting the alternator from the bus. There is a good chance that t
he diodes and possibly the regulator in the alternator will fail in that cas
e but replacing those components is relatively easy and far cheaper than eve
n replacing the battery, let alone all the other electrical components. Afte
r all, we are talking about a failed alternator anyway so having to replace t
he diodes and regulator module is a small price to pay.
>
> It is also relatively easy to remove the internal regulator module and bri
ng the field connection out to the #1 and #2 terminals to make it easy to co
nnect to an external regulator.
>
> But if one wants a turn-key solution, I have to agree that B&C is far and a
way the best.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
> 3191 Western Dr.
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> brian@lloyd.com
> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: alternator failure CJ6 |
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Paul Lewis <okanoganlew@gmail.com> wrote:
> Brian, I am curious as to how you would convert to an external regulator?
>
It has been several years since I have had one of these alternators open.
As I recall I removed the diode trio and removed the regulator module.
(Both are replaceable.) The brushes are then connected to the #1 and #2
terminals. Now the #1 and #2 terminals are direct connection to the field
and that is where the external voltage regulator is connected.
As to how you then connect the new field terminals on the alternator it
depends on whether your external regulator is a "high side" or "low side"
regulator. A "high side" regulator controls bus current going to the field
and then to ground. A "low side" regulator controls the current in the
field going to ground and the other side of the field is connected to the
aircraft power bus.
In the case of a "high side" regulator one of the terminals on the
alternator will connect to the field output of the regulator and the other
terminal on the alternator will connect to ground. If the regulator is a
"low side" regulator, one field terminal on the alternator will connect to
the field terminal of the regulator and the other field terminal on the
alternator will connect to the bus or 'B' terminal.
The alternator can be enabled or disabled by providing an SPST switch in
series with one of the field terminals, usually the one going to ground
("high side" regulator) or to the power bus ("low side" regulator). BTW,
this switch is exactly how the existing generator on/off switch works and
the existing generator on/off switch may be used for this purpose so all
the cockpit functions remain the same.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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