---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/06/12: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:55 AM - Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (Jay Land) 3. 07:49 AM - Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (Mark Davis) 4. 07:56 AM - Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (Richard Hess) 5. 08:00 AM - Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (Warren Hill) 6. 09:34 AM - Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (Roger Kemp M.D.) 7. 09:37 AM - Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (Larry Pine) 8. 02:02 PM - Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (ChangDriver) 9. 04:24 PM - Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (Adrian Coop Cooper) 10. 05:30 PM - Re: Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" (Roger Kemp M.D.) 11. 11:09 PM - Hose replacement Yak 52 (CHRIS ABBOTT) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:55:56 AM PST US From: Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer Subject: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" A few weeks ago a good friend of mine had an engine failure over the Strait of Georgia. His aircraft was a RV-6 style homebuilt with fixed conventional undercarriage. According to some witnesses on shore he did everything perfectly right and his aircraft did not flip over. Both occupants got out in time and the plane sank very quickly to the bottom of the ocean at around 300 feet. Still they had to spend 25 minutes in the cold water until they got finally rescued. Now here come some questions: In the case the CJ engine quits over open water what would be the safest landing configuration? a) canopies open or closed? b) gills open or closed? c) oil-cooler open or closed? d) flap up or down? e) should the tail touch the water first or the belly? f) any other ideas or thoughts? Your input on this matter is highly appreciated. cheers Elmar ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" From: "Jay Land" A parachute! Thanks, Jay Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 4:03 AM, "Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer" wrote: > > what would be the safest landing configuration? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:47 AM PST US From: "Mark Davis" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" As I recall my Dilbert Dunker training, the Navy would recommend canopy open. I don't recall anything about flaps but I would think flaps up would allow a little more nose up attitude on touchdown to allow a better chance of the airplane skipping a time or two before the nose has the opportunity to dig in. Gills open or closed doesn't matter. The first impact will wipe them out like toothpicks. Tighten your harness, get rid of your headset, kneeboards, other potential cockpit FOD, put your left hand on the canopy bow or some other place to help brace yourself for the impact. If the airplane flips over, wait until the bubble subside, release your harness and head for the light. If you're lucky enough to do it at night, swim clear, cup your hands over your mouth, exhale and follow the bubbles. Mark Davis Dilbert Dunker Survivor 9D5 Multiplace Simulator Trainer (Don't call it a helo dunker at least in front of one former Vietnam POW who went nuts when I referred to it as such) Survivor -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 2:51 AM Subject: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" --> A few weeks ago a good friend of mine had an engine failure over the Strait of Georgia. His aircraft was a RV-6 style homebuilt with fixed conventional undercarriage. According to some witnesses on shore he did everything perfectly right and his aircraft did not flip over. Both occupants got out in time and the plane sank very quickly to the bottom of the ocean at around 300 feet. Still they had to spend 25 minutes in the cold water until they got finally rescued. Now here come some questions: In the case the CJ engine quits over open water what would be the safest landing configuration? a) canopies open or closed? b) gills open or closed? c) oil-cooler open or closed? d) flap up or down? e) should the tail touch the water first or the belly? f) any other ideas or thoughts? Your input on this matter is highly appreciated. cheers Elmar ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:08 AM PST US From: Richard Hess Subject: Re: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" I would put the flaps down to allow for a slower approach speed. E=MC squared :-)) Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2012, at 9:47 AM, "Mark Davis" wrote: > > As I recall my Dilbert Dunker training, the Navy would recommend canopy > open. I don't recall anything about flaps but I would think flaps up would > allow a little more nose up attitude on touchdown to allow a better chance > of the airplane skipping a time or two before the nose has the opportunity > to dig in. Gills open or closed doesn't matter. The first impact will wipe > them out like toothpicks. Tighten your harness, get rid of your headset, > kneeboards, other potential cockpit FOD, put your left hand on the canopy > bow or some other place to help brace yourself for the impact. If the > airplane flips over, wait until the bubble subside, release your harness and > head for the light. If you're lucky enough to do it at night, swim clear, > cup your hands over your mouth, exhale and follow the bubbles. > > Mark Davis > Dilbert Dunker Survivor > 9D5 Multiplace Simulator Trainer (Don't call it a helo dunker at least in > front of one former Vietnam POW who went nuts when I referred to it as such) > Survivor > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Elmar & Manuela > Hegenauer > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 2:51 AM > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" > > --> > > A few weeks ago a good friend of mine > had an engine failure over the Strait of Georgia. His aircraft was a RV-6 > style homebuilt with fixed conventional undercarriage. > > According to some witnesses on shore he did everything perfectly right and > his aircraft did not flip over. Both occupants got out in time and the plane > sank very quickly to the bottom of the ocean at around 300 feet. > Still they had to spend 25 minutes in the cold water until they got finally > rescued. > > Now here come some questions: > > In the case the CJ engine quits over open water what would be the safest > landing configuration? > > a) canopies open or closed? > > b) gills open or closed? > > c) oil-cooler open or closed? > > d) flap up or down? > > e) should the tail touch the water first or the belly? > > f) any other ideas or thoughts? > > > Your input on this matter is highly appreciated. > > cheers > > Elmar > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" From: Warren Hill F= MA ;-) On Oct 6, 2012, at 7:53 AM, Richard Hess wrote: > > I would put the flaps down to allow for a slower approach speed. E=MC squared > > :-)) > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 6, 2012, at 9:47 AM, "Mark Davis" wrote: > >> >> As I recall my Dilbert Dunker training, the Navy would recommend canopy >> open. I don't recall anything about flaps but I would think flaps up would >> allow a little more nose up attitude on touchdown to allow a better chance >> of the airplane skipping a time or two before the nose has the opportunity >> to dig in. Gills open or closed doesn't matter. The first impact will wipe >> them out like toothpicks. Tighten your harness, get rid of your headset, >> kneeboards, other potential cockpit FOD, put your left hand on the canopy >> bow or some other place to help brace yourself for the impact. If the >> airplane flips over, wait until the bubble subside, release your harness and >> head for the light. If you're lucky enough to do it at night, swim clear, >> cup your hands over your mouth, exhale and follow the bubbles. >> >> Mark Davis >> Dilbert Dunker Survivor >> 9D5 Multiplace Simulator Trainer (Don't call it a helo dunker at least in >> front of one former Vietnam POW who went nuts when I referred to it as such) >> Survivor >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Elmar & Manuela >> Hegenauer >> Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2012 2:51 AM >> To: yak-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" >> >> --> >> >> A few weeks ago a good friend of mine >> had an engine failure over the Strait of Georgia. His aircraft was a RV-6 >> style homebuilt with fixed conventional undercarriage. >> >> According to some witnesses on shore he did everything perfectly right and >> his aircraft did not flip over. Both occupants got out in time and the plane >> sank very quickly to the bottom of the ocean at around 300 feet. >> Still they had to spend 25 minutes in the cold water until they got finally >> rescued. >> >> Now here come some questions: >> >> In the case the CJ engine quits over open water what would be the safest >> landing configuration? >> >> a) canopies open or closed? >> >> b) gills open or closed? >> >> c) oil-cooler open or closed? >> >> d) flap up or down? >> >> e) should the tail touch the water first or the belly? >> >> f) any other ideas or thoughts? >> >> >> Your input on this matter is highly appreciated. >> >> cheers >> >> Elmar >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" From: "Roger Kemp M.D." As Jay Said if altitude permits otherwise gear up on rough terrain. Ie. anything other than prepared runway surface grass or pavement. Pastures, plowed field with or without terraces you just don't know if the surface is free or gofer holes and is it soft or firm. Dig the nose wheel in and You better hope you have a roll bar. Doc Sent from my iPad On Oct 6, 2012, at 7:42 AM, "Jay Land" wrote: > > A parachute! > > Thanks, Jay > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 6, 2012, at 4:03 AM, "Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer" wrote: > >> >> what would be the safest landing configuration? > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" From: Larry Pine TXkgZXhwZXJpZW5jZSwgd2hpY2ggaXMgZnJvbSByZWFsIGxpZmUsIGRzYXlzIG5vdCB0byB0b3Vj aCB0aGUgZmxhcHMgdW50aWwgeW91IGFyZSByaWdodCBvdmVyIHlvdXIgbGFuZGluZyB6b25lLiDC oFRoZSBhaXJjcmFmdCBpdCdzIGRpcnR5IGVub3VnaCBhbmQgeW91IGhpdCB0aGUgZmxhcHMgd2l0 aCBhIGRlYWQgZW5naW5lIHlvdSB3aWxsIGhhdmUgdG8gaW5jcmVhc2UgeW91ciBnbGlkZSBzbG9w ZSBzaWduaWZpY2FudGx5LgoKTGFycnkgUGluZQpOODE4MUMKQ0o2L20xNHAKCgoKV2FycmVuIEhp bGwgPGs3d3hAZWFydGhsaW5rLm5ldD4gd3JvdGU6CgotLT4gWWFrLUxpc3QgbWVzc2FnZSBwb3N0 ZWQgYnk6IFdhcnJlbiBIaWxsIDxrN3d4QGVhcnRobGluay5uZXQ+CgpGPSBNQQoKOy0pCgpPbiBP 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The gills will go but I'd open them. The oil cooler door does not matter. I'd leave flaps and all up. Canopy open. Fod tossed out on way down. Helmet secured. Comm cable unplugged. If time, I'd get out of the parachute too and just strap in with the harness. Once out activate the life vest I'm sure you are wearing to fly over water! Chang Driver Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384804#384804 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:58 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" From: "Adrian Coop Cooper" Hi Elmar. That is a very good question for those of us living in British Columbia and the Pacific Northwest. I met your friend a couple of weeks ago within days of his Ditching. I was dismayed to hear that his passenger got out of the cockpit okay but got his foot trapped in the wing where the fixed gear had ripped a panel out of the upper wing. Fortunately he was able to dislodge the foot moments before the plane (a modified Zeniar I believe) sank. Which causes me to reiterate previously mentioned items. Strap in very tightly, jettison all FOD and any cables that could trap you, ie headset/helmet/iPad etc cables. Unplug audio as soon as you have broadcast your May Day, briefed your passenger and Squawked 7700. Yes, open the canopy and brace yourself on the canopy bow, one hand on the bow and the other on the stick, feet off the rudder pedals at the last moment. Lock the canopy open so it doesn't try to close on impact. Gear up for sure. I would leave the flaps up but probably close the oil door. Meanwhile, sign up for Brian Webster's ("Bri the Dunker Guy") course. One of the best courses I have ever taken. Bryan's course covers underwater egress and puts you in a mock up cockpit which is shot into the water and rigged to flip over upside down. Very, very real. Don't worry, he has divers in the water to assist if needed. On the question of Parachutes, even though I have hundreds of Sky Dives, I am not sure that is a very good option over the water, unless you are on fire or important bits are falling off. If you do decide to jump, cut away as soon as you enter the water and swim away carefully so as not to get caught in the lines, carry a knife. If you are fortunate enough to bring the plane to a gentle stop on the surface, discard the parachute rig as soon as you climb out onto the wing. They can absorb a very large amount of water and pull you under. Remember not to inflate your PFD until out of the plane - especially if you do cartwheel. You don't want any buoyancy until you are clear of the plane. It's hard to get out of an upside down cockpit with an inflated PFD which wants to push you back into the plane. Should you have to ditch, hope for smooth water, otherwise all my Airline courses emphasize alighting between the troughs. Preferable behind the crest of a wave. As I suggested, take the Underwater Egress Training course. Best regards and try to keep your feet dry. Coop -------- Coop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384810#384810 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II" From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Good post Coop. Might put my hands on the belt release. Hands up on the canopy bow may lose fingers if the canopy releases and slams forward. A canopy breaker tool would be handy too! a waterman with the plyers tip sharpened to a point will work to break the plexiglass if the canopy jams closed. Sorry did see your first post about this being a water ditching. If you bailout over water inflate your LPU manually before entering the water. Unless you have a water activated LPU. Don't panic if the chute comes down on top of you. Don't kick your legs because you will tangle them in the risers. Grab a seam and just over hand crawl along the seam until you get to the edge of the canopy. Then cut yourself free of risers and let the chute float and sink away. Doc Sent from my iPad On Oct 6, 2012, at 6:22 PM, "Adrian Coop Cooper" wrote: > > Hi Elmar. > That is a very good question for those of us living in British Columbia and the Pacific Northwest. I met your friend a couple of weeks ago within days of his Ditching. I was dismayed to hear that his passenger got out of the cockpit okay but got his foot trapped in the wing where the fixed gear had ripped a panel out of the upper wing. Fortunately he was able to dislodge the foot moments before the plane (a modified Zeniar I believe) sank. Which causes me to reiterate previously mentioned items. Strap in very tightly, jettison all FOD and any cables that could trap you, ie headset/helmet/iPad etc cables. Unplug audio as soon as you have broadcast your May Day, briefed your passenger and Squawked 7700. Yes, open the canopy and brace yourself on the canopy bow, one hand on the bow and the other on the stick, feet off the rudder pedals at the last moment. Lock the canopy open so it doesn't try to close on impact. Gear up for sure. I would leave the flaps up but probably close t! > he oil door. > Meanwhile, sign up for Brian Webster's ("Bri the Dunker Guy") course. One of the best courses I have ever taken. Bryan's course covers underwater egress and puts you in a mock up cockpit which is shot into the water and rigged to flip over upside down. Very, very real. Don't worry, he has divers in the water to assist if needed. > On the question of Parachutes, even though I have hundreds of Sky Dives, I am not sure that is a very good option over the water, unless you are on fire or important bits are falling off. If you do decide to jump, cut away as soon as you enter the water and swim away carefully so as not to get caught in the lines, carry a knife. If you are fortunate enough to bring the plane to a gentle stop on the surface, discard the parachute rig as soon as you climb out onto the wing. They can absorb a very large amount of water and pull you under. Remember not to inflate your PFD until out of the plane - especially if you do cartwheel. You don't want any buoyancy until you are clear of the plane. It's hard to get out of an upside down cockpit with an inflated PFD which wants to push you back into the plane. > Should you have to ditch, hope for smooth water, otherwise all my Airline courses emphasize alighting between the troughs. Preferable behind the crest of a wave. As I suggested, take the Underwater Egress Training course. > Best regards and try to keep your feet dry. > Coop > > -------- > Coop > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384810#384810 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:36 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Hose replacement Yak 52 From: CHRIS ABBOTT Does anyone know the best deal on hose replacement or can the hose be purchased to enable me to get done in Aussie ? 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