Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:36 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (Cory Robin)
2. 09:08 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
3. 09:13 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (Didier Blouzard)
4. 09:39 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (Roger Kemp M.D.)
5. 09:44 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (Rico Jaeger)
6. 09:44 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (Roger Kemp M.D.)
7. 09:53 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
8. 10:00 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
9. 10:05 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (A. Dennis Savarese)
10. 10:09 AM - Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 (Walter Lannon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
Jon,
For what it's worth, Jill and crew at M-14P, Inc. can make new hoses for a
reasonable price. (I mention her, because she did mine late last summer
and I an supremely pleased - and I mean ALL my hoses were re-done)
You'll be down for a couple weeks, but if you pull the hoses and send them
to her, they'll make them as exact replacements.
Thank you for posting about your mystery, I've avoided at least one failure
on My M-14P directly as a result of reading posts on this list. I look
forward to hearing the results of your diagnosis.
Cory.
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:07 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil
> level now now that the foam has settled.
>
> He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top
> hole!
>
> Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one bottle
> and since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put some more in
> from a 2.5 gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most likely got
> it a little over-filled. I don't like to go past 17. Perhaps I got it to
> 18 or even a little more. I figured that in a 2.5 hour round trip it would
> use a liter anyway and if it overboarded some, well, I get what I deserved.
>
> It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that
> time was about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets were
> more full, but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy. When it
> drops like that I'm always extra careful pulling it through since my
> assumption is that the missing oil is filling up the bottom cylinders not
> sitting in the drip pan. There was some discharge from pulling the prop
> through but nothing major. Still, there could have been more than just a
> little oil in the scavenge portion of the engine and that'd put me way over
> 18 liters.
>
> So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause
> foaming? Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
>
> Current theories are:
>
> 1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air into
> the system.
> 2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
> 3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
> 4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
> 5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this one).
>
> Approach to breaking the problem down...
>
> 1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a home
> in it or other blockage.
> 2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is happening.
> 3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly
> airplane to see if problem repeats.
> 4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed on
> this plane) and from screen to tank.
> 5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are any
> cracks or problems.
>
> Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting exercise.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Jon
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
Overfilling will cause extreme foaming, or at least it did when I saw it
happen on an M-14P when it was done during an aerobatic competition on a
SU-31.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 22:08
Subject: Yak-List: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2
I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil
level now now that the foam has settled.
He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top
hole!
Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one
bottle and since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put some
more in from a 2.5 gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most
likely got it a little over-filled. I don't like to go past 17.
Perhaps I got it to 18 or even a little more. I figured that in a 2.5
hour round trip it would use a liter anyway and if it overboarded some,
well, I get what I deserved.
It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that
time was about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets
were more full, but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy.
When it drops like that I'm always extra careful pulling it through
since my assumption is that the missing oil is filling up the bottom
cylinders not sitting in the drip pan. There was some discharge from
pulling the prop through but nothing major. Still, there could have
been more than just a little oil in the scavenge portion of the engine
and that'd put me way over 18 liters.
So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause
foaming? Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
Current theories are:
1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air
into the system.
2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this
one).
Approach to breaking the problem down...
1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a home
in it or other blockage.
2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is
happening.
3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly
airplane to see if problem repeats.
4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed on
this plane) and from screen to tank.
5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are
any cracks or problems.
Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting
exercise.
Thanks!!
Jon
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
Thanks you for sharing your experience with us.
And I really admire your management of this incident, from the
decision of landing to the ommunication on the list.
Whish that you can fly safe and soon.
Best of all
Didier
2013/3/26 Cory Robin <crobin@skyvantage.com>:
> Jon,
>
> For what it's worth, Jill and crew at M-14P, Inc. can make new hoses for a
> reasonable price. (I mention her, because she did mine late last summer and
> I an supremely pleased - and I mean ALL my hoses were re-done)
>
> You'll be down for a couple weeks, but if you pull the hoses and send them
> to her, they'll make them as exact replacements.
>
> Thank you for posting about your mystery, I've avoided at least one failure
> on My M-14P directly as a result of reading posts on this list. I look
> forward to hearing the results of your diagnosis.
>
> Cory.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:07 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil
>> level now now that the foam has settled.
>>
>> He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top
>> hole!
>>
>> Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one bottle
>> and since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put some more in
>> from a 2.5 gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most likely got it
>> a little over-filled. I don't like to go past 17. Perhaps I got it to 18
>> or even a little more. I figured that in a 2.5 hour round trip it would use
>> a liter anyway and if it overboarded some, well, I get what I deserved.
>>
>> It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that
>> time was about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets were
>> more full, but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy. When it
>> drops like that I'm always extra careful pulling it through since my
>> assumption is that the missing oil is filling up the bottom cylinders not
>> sitting in the drip pan. There was some discharge from pulling the prop
>> through but nothing major. Still, there could have been more than just a
>> little oil in the scavenge portion of the engine and that'd put me way over
>> 18 liters.
>>
>> So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause
>> foaming? Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
>>
>> Current theories are:
>>
>> 1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air into
>> the system.
>> 2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
>> 3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
>> 4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
>> 5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this
>> one).
>>
>> Approach to breaking the problem down...
>>
>> 1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a home
>> in it or other blockage.
>> 2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is happening.
>> 3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly
>> airplane to see if problem repeats.
>> 4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed on
>> this plane) and from screen to tank.
>> 5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are any
>> cracks or problems.
>>
>> Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting exercise.
>>
>> Thanks!!
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Directeur Gnral DATEXIS
Portable : +33 6 51 84 48 02
Email: didier.blouzard@gmail.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
One word..Nope.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 25, 2013, at 9:07 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil leve
l now now that the foam has settled.
>
> He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top hol
e!
>
> Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one bottle a
nd since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put some more in from
a 2.5 gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most likely got it a l
ittle over-filled. I don't like to go past 17. Perhaps I got it to 18 or e
ven a little more. I figured that in a 2.5 hour round trip it would use a l
iter anyway and if it overboarded some, well, I get what I deserved.
>
> It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that tim
e was about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets were more
full, but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy. When it drops l
ike that I'm always extra careful pulling it through since my assumption is t
hat the missing oil is filling up the bottom cylinders not sitting in the dr
ip pan. There was some discharge from pulling the prop through but nothing m
ajor. Still, there could have been more than just a little oil in the scave
nge portion of the engine and that'd put me way over 18 liters.
>
> So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause foami
ng? Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
>
> Current theories are:
>
> 1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air into
the system.
> 2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
> 3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
> 4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
> 5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this one)
.
>
> Approach to breaking the problem down...
>
> 1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a home i
n it or other blockage.
> 2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is happening.
> 3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly airp
lane to see if problem repeats.
> 4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed on t
his plane) and from screen to tank.
> 5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are any
cracks or problems.
>
> Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting exercise.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Jon
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
Jon,
I echo what many others are saying here...BRAVO for not only playing it
safe, but living to fly another day and opening up your experience to the
Yak / CJ community! Your humble & genuine approach to these matters will
serve you - and all of us - very well. Let's face it - the safety track
record of these aircraft is not all that encouraging. And I'd MUCH rather
read your post than an NTSB report ANYDAY! Congratz on your "happy ending!"
Rico
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 9:07 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil
> level now now that the foam has settled.
>
> He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top
> hole!
>
> Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one bottle
> and since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put some more in
> from a 2.5 gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most likely got
> it a little over-filled. I don't like to go past 17. Perhaps I got it to
> 18 or even a little more. I figured that in a 2.5 hour round trip it would
> use a liter anyway and if it overboarded some, well, I get what I deserved.
>
> It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that
> time was about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets were
> more full, but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy. When it
> drops like that I'm always extra careful pulling it through since my
> assumption is that the missing oil is filling up the bottom cylinders not
> sitting in the drip pan. There was some discharge from pulling the prop
> through but nothing major. Still, there could have been more than just a
> little oil in the scavenge portion of the engine and that'd put me way over
> 18 liters.
>
> So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause
> foaming? Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
>
> Current theories are:
>
> 1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air into
> the system.
> 2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
> 3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
> 4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
> 5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this one).
>
> Approach to breaking the problem down...
>
> 1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a home
> in it or other blockage.
> 2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is happening.
> 3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly
> airplane to see if problem repeats.
> 4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed on
> this plane) and from screen to tank.
> 5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are any
> cracks or problems.
>
> Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting exercise.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Jon
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Rico Jaeger
Choir / East High School
General Music / Horace Mann
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
Mark,
The over fill is normally dumped over the side once inverted as long as the tank
drain is patent.
Now with the acro you guys do sloshing can cause some foaming. If dumped overboard
the belly and wing root is sloppy.not generally involving the right gear.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 26, 2013, at 11:06 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
>
> Overfilling will cause extreme foaming, or at least it did when I saw it
> happen on an M-14P when it was done during an aerobatic competition on a
> SU-31.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 22:08
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2
>
> I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil
> level now now that the foam has settled.
>
> He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top
> hole!
>
> Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one
> bottle and since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put some
> more in from a 2.5 gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most
> likely got it a little over-filled. I don't like to go past 17.
> Perhaps I got it to 18 or even a little more. I figured that in a 2.5
> hour round trip it would use a liter anyway and if it overboarded some,
> well, I get what I deserved.
>
> It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that
> time was about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets
> were more full, but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy.
> When it drops like that I'm always extra careful pulling it through
> since my assumption is that the missing oil is filling up the bottom
> cylinders not sitting in the drip pan. There was some discharge from
> pulling the prop through but nothing major. Still, there could have
> been more than just a little oil in the scavenge portion of the engine
> and that'd put me way over 18 liters.
>
> So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause
> foaming? Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
>
> Current theories are:
>
> 1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air
> into the system.
> 2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
> 3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
> 4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
> 5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this
> one).
>
> Approach to breaking the problem down...
>
> 1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a home
> in it or other blockage.
> 2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is
> happening.
> 3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly
> airplane to see if problem repeats.
> 4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed on
> this plane) and from screen to tank.
> 5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are
> any cracks or problems.
>
> Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting
> exercise.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
Gross over filling will cause oil to spray out of vent lines and "other places".
The air/oil separator will end up blowing bubbles through the tank and the oil
will foam quite a bit.
In a worst case scenario it is in theory possible to blow some oil seals as well,
but I have never seen that happen.
This is exactly what happened to an SU-31 at Lakeland during the World Aerobatic
Competition a few years ago.
In that particular case, the oil was drained completely, fresh oil put in and everything
was fine.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D.
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:36
Subject: Re: Yak-List: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2
One word..Nope.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 25, 2013, at 9:07 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com> wrote:
I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil level now
now that the foam has settled.
He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top hole!
Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one bottle and
since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put some more in from a 2.5
gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most likely got it a little over-filled.
I don't like to go past 17. Perhaps I got it to 18 or even a little
more. I figured that in a 2.5 hour round trip it would use a liter anyway
and if it overboarded some, well, I get what I deserved.
It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that time was
about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets were more full,
but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy. When it drops like that
I'm always extra careful pulling it through since my assumption is that the
missing oil is filling up the bottom cylinders not sitting in the drip pan. There
was some discharge from pulling the prop through but nothing major. Still,
there could have been more than just a little oil in the scavenge portion of
the engine and that'd put me way over 18 liters.
So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause foaming?
Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
Current theories are:
1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air into the
system.
2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this one).
Approach to breaking the problem down...
1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a home in it
or other blockage.
2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is happening.
3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly airplane
to see if problem repeats.
4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed on this
plane) and from screen to tank.
5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are any cracks
or problems.
Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting exercise.
Thanks!!
Jon
==================================
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
==================================
cs.com
==================================
matronics.com/contribution
==================================
Message 8
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| Subject: | precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
Doc,
Over-filling a SU-31 oil tank (same as YAK-50/52, etc.) caused this
exact same thing to happen that this gent describes.
I was there, I saw it with my own eyes Doc. We're talking about GROSS
over-filling. For example, if you fill it all the way to FULL and there
is still 2-3 liters down in the sump and lower engine. Oil will flow
DOWN into the air/oil separator and then when you blast off it foams up
like ... a lot.
Mark
p.s. "The over fill is normally dumped over the side once inverted as
long as the tank drain is patent."
I am not sure what you mean by that comment honestly. "Tank drain is
patent?"
p.s. I have no idea what would happen in a Housai. I thought they were
almost the same designs, but I am not sure.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
M.D.
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:42
Subject: Re: Yak-List: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2
<viperdoc@mindspring.com>
Mark,
The over fill is normally dumped over the side once inverted as long as
the tank drain is patent.
Now with the acro you guys do sloshing can cause some foaming. If dumped
overboard the belly and wing root is sloppy.not generally involving the
right gear.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 26, 2013, at 11:06 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil> wrote:
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
>
> Overfilling will cause extreme foaming, or at least it did when I saw
it
> happen on an M-14P when it was done during an aerobatic competition on
a
> SU-31.
>
> Mark Bitterlich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 22:08
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Yak-List: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2
>
> I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil
> level now now that the foam has settled.
>
> He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top
> hole!
>
> Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one
> bottle and since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put
some
> more in from a 2.5 gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most
> likely got it a little over-filled. I don't like to go past 17.
> Perhaps I got it to 18 or even a little more. I figured that in a 2.5
> hour round trip it would use a liter anyway and if it overboarded
some,
> well, I get what I deserved.
>
> It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that
> time was about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets
> were more full, but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy.
> When it drops like that I'm always extra careful pulling it through
> since my assumption is that the missing oil is filling up the bottom
> cylinders not sitting in the drip pan. There was some discharge from
> pulling the prop through but nothing major. Still, there could have
> been more than just a little oil in the scavenge portion of the engine
> and that'd put me way over 18 liters.
>
> So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause
> foaming? Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
>
> Current theories are:
>
> 1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air
> into the system.
> 2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
> 3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
> 4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
> 5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this
> one).
>
> Approach to breaking the problem down...
>
> 1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a
home
> in it or other blockage.
> 2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is
> happening.
> 3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly
> airplane to see if problem repeats.
> 4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed
on
> this plane) and from screen to tank.
> 5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are
> any cracks or problems.
>
> Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting
> exercise.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
The CJ's that I have seen with an M14 do not have an air/oil separator
because the oil tank does not have inverted capabilities.
Even in your automobile engine, it states "Do Not Overfill". As Mark
says, "it is in theory possible to blow some oil seals". Same goes for
our M14 and Housai radials. There is no reason whatsoever to fill the
oil tank to 16 liters (the sump usually has about a liter or so in it
before you start it) UNLESS the engine and oil system have been
completely drained first and then the oil tank refilled. Operation at
12 or 13 liters is more than enough oil.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 3/26/2013 11:50 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
>
> Gross over filling will cause oil to spray out of vent lines and "other places".
>
> The air/oil separator will end up blowing bubbles through the tank and the oil
will foam quite a bit.
>
> In a worst case scenario it is in theory possible to blow some oil seals as well,
but I have never seen that happen.
>
> This is exactly what happened to an SU-31 at Lakeland during the World Aerobatic
Competition a few years ago.
>
> In that particular case, the oil was drained completely, fresh oil put in and
everything was fine.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D.
> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:36
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2
>
> One word..Nope.
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 25, 2013, at 9:07 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil level
now now that the foam has settled.
>
> He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top hole!
>
> Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one bottle and
since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put some more in from a
2.5 gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most likely got it a little
over-filled. I don't like to go past 17. Perhaps I got it to 18 or even a little
more. I figured that in a 2.5 hour round trip it would use a liter anyway
and if it overboarded some, well, I get what I deserved.
>
> It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that time
was about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets were more full,
but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy. When it drops like that
I'm always extra careful pulling it through since my assumption is that the
missing oil is filling up the bottom cylinders not sitting in the drip pan.
There was some discharge from pulling the prop through but nothing major. Still,
there could have been more than just a little oil in the scavenge portion
of the engine and that'd put me way over 18 liters.
>
> So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause foaming?
Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
>
> Current theories are:
>
> 1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air into the
system.
> 2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
> 3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
> 4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
> 5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this one).
>
> Approach to breaking the problem down...
>
> 1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a home in
it or other blockage.
> 2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is happening.
> 3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly airplane
to see if problem repeats.
> 4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed on this
plane) and from screen to tank.
> 5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are any cracks
or problems.
>
> Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting exercise.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> ==================================
> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> ==================================
> cs.com
> ==================================
> matronics.com/contribution
> ==================================
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2 |
Is everyone using a standard shut-down procedure that would help to avoid
over filling? I would expect the answer is yes but just in case
:--------------
Radial engine shut-down; (for Huosai' M14, etc.)
1. Prop - high RPM.
2. Throttle to 1500 RPM for exactly 1 minute.
3. Prop to low RPM, Wait for prop to cycle to course (RPM stable)
4. Close throttle and switch off.
This accomplishes two useful functions. 1: It transfers a quantity of
oil from the sump to the oil tank by utilizing the scavange pump at a useful
RPM. - Not Idle. If it is done exactly the same each time it gives a
reliable base for measuring oil consumption and therefore how much to add.
2: The propellor oil is transferred back to the sump so that in cold
weather the prop. is not immobilized by frozen oil.
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:06 AM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2
<mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
Overfilling will cause extreme foaming, or at least it did when I saw it
happen on an M-14P when it was done during an aerobatic competition on a
SU-31.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Boede
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 22:08
Subject: Yak-List: precautionary landing mystery, chapter 2
I called down to the FBO and had one of their mechanics check the oil
level now now that the foam has settled.i
He said the foam was gone and the oil level was all the way to the top
hole!
Sunday morning I was at about 13 liters. I added a liter from one
bottle and since I like about 16 to fly with on a short trip I put some
more in from a 2.5 gallon jug. The jug isn't easy to start and I most
likely got it a little over-filled. I don't like to go past 17.
Perhaps I got it to 18 or even a little more. I figured that in a 2.5
hour round trip it would use a liter anyway and if it overboarded some,
well, I get what I deserved.
It had been about 3 weeks since the plane was last flown. Oil at that
time was about 16 before the flight. It seemed like the drip buckets
were more full, but since it's been 3 weeks my memory is a bit foggy.
When it drops like that I'm always extra careful pulling it through
since my assumption is that the missing oil is filling up the bottom
cylinders not sitting in the drip pan. There was some discharge from
pulling the prop through but nothing major. Still, there could have
been more than just a little oil in the scavenge portion of the engine
and that'd put me way over 18 liters.
So the question is, if you over-fill your oil tank, would that cause
foaming? Maybe yes? I've never done it before, so I don't know.
Current theories are:
1. Crack or hose leak on the "suck" side of the pump, introducing air
into the system.
2. Maybe overfilling the oil tank caused a problem.
3. Vent line from tank is blocked and tank is pressurizing.
4. Some problem with the other tube that ventilates the case.
5. Blown supercharger seal causing pressurizing (I hope it's not this
one).
Approach to breaking the problem down...
1. Inspect tank ventilation line to see if some creature has made a home
in it or other blockage.
2. Run up airplane with cowl off to see if something unusual is
happening.
3. Drain a couple of liters from system, down to 15 or 16 and run/fly
airplane to see if problem repeats.
4. Replace hoses from tank to screen (no aftermarket filter installed on
this plane) and from screen to tank.
5. Thoroughly inspect everything from tank to pump to see if there are
any cracks or problems.
Other suggestions? Debugging this from remote is an interesting
exercise.
Thanks!!
Jon
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