Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:23 AM - Engine Start Mystery (Sam Sax)
2. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: compressor problems (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 06:17 AM - Re: compressor problems (gord)
4. 06:27 AM - Say It Ain't So... (Rico Jaeger)
5. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: Compressor problem (doug sapp)
6. 07:09 AM - Re: compressor problems (doug sapp)
7. 07:39 AM - Re: compressor problems (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD)
8. 09:26 AM - Re: Engine Start Mystery (bill wade)
9. 05:53 PM - Re: Engine Start Mystery (cjpilot710@aol.com)
10. 07:01 PM - Re: Engine start mystery (Frank Stelwagon)
11. 07:53 PM - Re: Engine Start Mystery (Roger Kemp M.D.)
12. 07:53 PM - Re: Say It Ain't So... (Roger Kemp M.D.)
13. 08:02 PM - Engine Start Mystery (Sam Sax)
14. 08:10 PM - Re: Engine start mystery (Sam Sax)
15. 08:21 PM - Re: Engine Start Mystery (Sam Sax)
16. 09:28 PM - Re: Engine Start Mystery (Roger Kemp M.D.)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Engine Start Mystery |
This is a "good" one... I fly my CJ6 with the M-14p engine over a decade and have
never seen or heard of this happening. I'd appreciate any ideas shedding light
on this mystery...
Earlier today upon returning from a routine acro practice flight, taxied to the
fuel pump and performed a normal shutdown.
After fueling and as a practice before each start, I have my GIB rotate the prop
by hand a few blades as I prime (a little when engine is hot). My GIB reported
that the first two blades were tight with normal feel of compression but the
next blade was very soft. I didnt think much of it and asked him to hop in
and I commenced with normal engine start procedure.
Upon pressing the Air-Start button, the blades rotated in an amazingly fast rate
- much faster than normal start rotation speed - as if there was no compression
in the cylinders... Moreover, there was no ignition whatsoever during this
fast rotation. I released the start button, waited a minute and tried again
- same high speed rotation and no ignition...
At this time I got very worried and thought that the rear segment of the crankshaft
somehow sheared off (on shutdown??)! Spent about 10 minutes with my knowledgeable
GIB trying to figure out what could have happened. At that point,
I asked him to try rotating the prop by hand and see if ANY of the cylinders have
compression. As he was turning the prop by hand, I could see his strain as
he rotates blade by blade - he proceeded to report feeling normal compression
resistance on all blades. At this point I wanted to attempt another start.
GIB was back in the rear cockpit and I pressed the starter button - engine started
on the second blade (as it normally does)! I have the JP Instrument 9
Cylinder unit where I can see CHT and EGT for all 9 cylinders - All showing normal!
Taxied back to hangar - Performed a Magneto check - Normal. Oil, Fuel pressures
and temps - normal. I shut down again and re-started two additional times in
an effort to duplicate the problem... Started perfectly normal each time.
So... what the hell happened there? I am thinking a stuck intake valve but one
stuck valve will not make the prop spin that fast on starting... Two stuck valves?
Three?? Can that happen? If one did stick, why wasn't there any ignition
on the other cylinders? If the sticking valve was the intake valve on #7
cylinder (that gets most of the Priming flow), I can see no ignition condition
but this is only a guess.
Some engine info:
M14-P standard (360HP)
Total time: 765 hours since new
Last compression check (4 months ago): 77 - 78 all cylinders
Engine oil: Philips 25W60 multi viscosity oil
Last Valve Lash adjustment: 80 hours ago
System Air Pressure at first re-start attempt: 42 ATM, at last (Fifth start) 28
ATM
Location, Hot Miami, FL
Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas?
Thank you in advance for any input,
Sam Sax
Miami FL
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: compressor problems |
Also on the banjo fitting on top of the fine fuel filter as well.
Although this banjo fitting VERY rarely ever leaks unless someone has
recently replaced the hoses.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 6/2/2013 12:01 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:
> Absolutely! Happens on the banjo fittings on the fuel pump also!
> Doc
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jun 2, 2013, at 11:42 AM, bill wade <bwade154@yahoo.com
> <mailto:bwade154@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>> I just ordered some Alu washer's from summit. The lower part of the
>> shaft that goes through the Banjo alows the 10mm washer to move
>> around quite a bit, the disigners should have put a sholder on the
>> nut to hold the waser in place.
>> *Seller: **summitracing_sales*
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l1181/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fmyworld.ebay.com%2Fsummitracing_sales%3FssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A1181>*(
>> **501612*
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l1183/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Ffeedback.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewFeedback%26userid%3Dsummitracing_sales%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A1183>*)
>> *
>> **
>> *Item title *
>> *Price*
>>
>> *Shipping price*
>>
>> *Qty*
>> *Item total*
>>
>> Fragola 999218 Crush Washers 18mm Aluminum Set of 10
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l3160/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D111074136794%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A3160>
>> ( item: 111074136794
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l3160/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D111074136794%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A3160>
>> transaction: 1033399548001
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1838.l1121/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fmy.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FMyEbayBeta%26CurrentPage%3DMyeBayNextSummary>
>> )
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l1120/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D111074136794%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A1120>
>>
>>
>>
>> Paid on May-29-13
>> $5.95
>> Free
>> 1
>> $5.95
>> Expedited Shipping
>> Estimated delivery: Mon. Jun. 3
>>
>>
>> Fragola 999214 Crush Washers 14mm Aluminum Set of 10
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l3160/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D330919352626%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A3160>
>> ( item: 330919352626
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l3160/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D330919352626%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A3160>
>> transaction: 830513793014
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1838.l1121/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fmy.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FMyEbayBeta%26CurrentPage%3DMyeBayNextSummary>
>> )
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l1120/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D330919352626%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A1120>
>>
>>
>>
>> Paid on May-29-13
>> $4.95
>> $4.95
>> 1
>> $4.95
>> Expedited Shipping
>> Estimated delivery: Mon. Jun. 3
>>
>>
>> Fragola 999210 Crush Washers 10mm Aluminum Set of 10
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l3160/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D330924872307%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A3160>
>> ( item: 330924872307
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l3160/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D330924872307%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A3160>
>> transaction: 830513794014
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1838.l1121/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fmy.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FMyEbayBeta%26CurrentPage%3DMyeBayNextSummary>
>> )
>> <http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400.m1842.l1120/7?euid=d0bd161b1ba54dc78dd1bb50cd737151&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D330924872307%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AL%3AOC%3AUS%3A1120>
>>
>>
>>
>> Paid on May-29-13
>> $3.95
>> --
>> 2
>> $7.90
>> Shipped with item above
>> Estimated delivery: Mon. Jun. 3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Subtotal $18.80
>>
>> Shipping and handling $4.95
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Shipping Discount from seller summitracing_sales $14.85
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Total $23.75
>>
>>
>> *From:* Gary Gabbard <ggg6@att.net <mailto:ggg6@att.net>>
>> *To:* "yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>"
>> <yak-list@matronics.com <mailto:yak-list@matronics.com>>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:26 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Yak-List: Re: compressor problems
>>
>> <mailto:ggg6@att.net>>
>>
>> Try Harbor Freight. They have plastic assortment boxes of copper
>> crush washers. Gary. CJ. N22YK
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jun 2, 2013, at 7:14, "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc@mindspring.com
>> <mailto:viperdoc@mindspring.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <viperdoc@mindspring.com <mailto:viperdoc@mindspring.com>>
>> >
>> > Mozam,
>> > Thanks! I have been looking all over the place for a reasonable
>> crush washer source. Did not even think about McMaster Carr!
>> > Gord, he is right about the compressor check valve at the
>> compressor. It needs to cleaned after about a hundred hours at the most.
>> > I need to clone me so one can be my crew chief and I can FLY! Ah,
>> the joys of owning a military aircraft!
>> > Doc
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> > On Jun 2, 2013, at 8:56 AM, "Mozam" <sdalton@hughes.net
>> <mailto:sdalton@hughes.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> <mailto:sdalton@hughes.net>>
>> >>
>> >> Ive seen this before on my plane several times. Your compressor
>> may be just fine. Try tightening and re-safety wiring the banjo
>> fitting that attaches the air line to the compressor. When the
>> compressor reaches 3.0 ATM the fitting starts to leak the air out and
>> it cannot build the pressure any higher.
>> >>
>> >> Id replace the crush washers while youre at it just to make sure
>> you fix the leak.
>> >>
>> >> Also, this would be a good time to remove, disassemble, and clean
>> all the carbon out of the valve on the compressor that the banjo
>> fitting attaches to. If that valve carbons up enough the air cannot
>> exit the compressor and pressures/temperatures in the compressor go
>> sky high. There is a shear pin that is supposed to break if this
>> happens to save your compressor.
>> >>
>> >> However, I had a shear pin in mine made of (stainless steel ?),
>> which failed to break so the pressure/temperature reached a point
>> where the piston froze in the cylinder and ripped the compressor
>> cylinder right off the compressor body. (It stripped all the nuts
>> right off the studs.) I wonder how many others have a shear pin like
>> minewas I the only guy to have a bad one? Probably not!
>> >>
>> >> Disassemble the valve and soak in odorless mineral spirits for a
>> couple days to remove all the carbonworks great. It can be a pain to
>> take apart, I use a vise and big wrench. Get some new crush washers
>> (I think they are 10 and 18 mm I.D.) You can get them here
>> cheaphttp://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-crush-washers/=n0n313
>> >>
>> >> Try this before you remove the compressor. That is a real PITA!!!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Read this topic online here:
>> >>
>> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401810#401810
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "http://forums.matronics.com/"
>> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.cohank you for your generous
>> nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> ==================================
>> //www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> ==================================
>> cs.com
>> ==================================
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> ==================================
>>
>> *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 3
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| Subject: | compressor problems |
Thank you all for the responses to my request for help on the compressor. I
have time to explain a little more now. As it always happens, the problem
was undetected until I was ready to start for the Air Show in Waterloo
Ontario on Satueday. http://www.waterlooairshow.com/performers/in-the-air .
Sunday was fine with lots of nitrogen from the bottle.
Fortunately I allowed an extra 5 min just in case. There was a bit of panic
when I hit the start button and ... NADA. The pressure was down to about 25.
(never let that happen again). After some frantic attempts, pulling the prop
through etc I finally just held the button in and it flipped over 1 blade,
stopped and flipped one more blade and caught. Thank goodness.
The compressor has not been putting out much more that 35 for the last 10
hours or so. Now it is not putting out anything. There is no residual
pressure from the snot valve after the flight. The airplane is back in the
hangar and I will have a go at it tomorrow.
Aside from that little problem the airplane is really performing well and
the air show crowds seem to enjoy it. It really is a fabulous Air Show
machine. Thanks again for the help ........ Gord Price 519 795 7080
Message 4
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| Subject: | Say It Ain't So... |
Just out of curiosity...I recently received my latest EAA WARBIRDS magazine
and while perusing the coverage of Sun N' Fun, noted there was but a single
photo of an L-39 w/ a very conspicuous absence of any other Red Star
aircraft. Assuming the event was well-attended by the Yak / CJ community,
is there a bit of shunning occurring here? Or am I just being a paranoid
alarmist? Aren't these aircraft bonified "WARBIRDS" - very active in
promoting the sport and the joys of safe, semi-self-governed general
aviation? This is not an attempt to stir up a hornet's nest. Maybe the
photos just "played out" that way. And I am probably naively jumping to
conclusions, but...where is the coverage / acknowledgement? There are Red
Star forums, fly-by's, fly-out's, mass arrivals and tons of static
representation. So...?
--
Rico Jaeger
Choir / East High School
General Music / Horace Mann
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Compressor problem |
Or you could just call me. I do try to stock all the small parts to keep
us in the air.
Just ask for the KY2 compressor kit. It contains all the proper alu crush
seals, a new stainless steel poppet valve spring, and a new compressor
filter.
I also stock new compressors if needed. There is no difference in the M14P
and the HS6A compressor other than the "clock" position of the poppet,
which is easily changed.
Doug
On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Frank Stelwagon
<pfstelwagon@earthlink.net>wrote:
> **
> If you have a good auto shop or "speed Shop" available they will have
> crush washers. Most of the newer GM cars use a metric banjo fitting at the
> brake calipers.
>
> Frank
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: compressor problems |
Gord,
Before spending a grand on a new compressor, check the following:
Take a rubber glove and stretch it over the top of the compressor and
rotate the prop 8 to 10 blades to see if it sucks down on the filter. if
yes you problem is most likely not in the compressor. Check for leaks down
stream, a stuck poppet valve or a broken spring.
Remove the filter and screens and watch the little nut in the middle as you
rotate the engine, is it moving? if not then you may have a sheared pin,
again your compressor is OK, just replace the pin. Not a fun job.
I don't have the shear pins in stock, but I think Jill at M14P or Geo Coy
might.
Call if I can be of help 509-826-4610.
Best,
Doug Sapp
On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Gord <gord@thedampub.ca> wrote:
>
> Looks like I need a compressor overhaul or replacement. The pressure is
> not getting over 3. Does anyone have a compressor for sale or a kit to
> overhaul.
> Gord with Yak 50 SN 01
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | compressor problems |
Gord,
Just a few comments.
1. DARN GOOD ADVICE from Doug Sapp !!! By the way Doug, I never heard
of that particular trick before or maybe I did... Dennis? Anyway, I'll
remember that one for sure!
2. Gord, during the 13 years I have owned my YAK-50, I have had
situations where the pressure gage did not pump up, or remain up, or
whatever else, a whole BUNCH of times! Hundreds of hours and hundreds
of flights. The engine compressor has never been replaced during that
entire time. It has *ALWAYS* turned out to be a leak of some kind.
One good hint you gave in another message was that there was little to
no air in the snot valve.
Compressor could be bad as Doug detailed.
But ....
Also the banjo fitting, which I believe has already been mentioned.
Next, the rigid line that goes from the compressor banjo fitting TO the
snot valve. I have seen a bunch of them crack and then leak. Happens
ALL the time. I replaced mine with a flexible steel braided hose off a
Sukhoi.
Cracked flare in any of the lines.
By the way, if you happen to be incorrect about the snot valve and the
amount of air that is released when you check it, the possibilities
expand to a LARGE number of additional possibilities.
Bottom line, a leak of some kind.
Yes, it could be a compressor, but it sure would not be something I
would jump on first.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 10:08
Subject: Re: Yak-List: compressor problems
Gord,
Before spending a grand on a new compressor, check the following:
Take a rubber glove and stretch it over the top of the compressor and
rotate the prop 8 to 10 blades to see if it sucks down on the filter.
if yes you problem is most likely not in the compressor. Check for
leaks down stream, a stuck poppet valve or a broken spring.
Remove the filter and screens and watch the little nut in the middle as
you rotate the engine, is it moving? if not then you may have a sheared
pin, again your compressor is OK, just replace the pin. Not a fun job.
I don't have the shear pins in stock, but I think Jill at M14P or Geo
Coy might.
Call if I can be of help 509-826-4610.
Best,
Doug Sapp
On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Gord <gord@thedampub.ca> wrote:
Looks like I need a compressor overhaul or replacement. The
pressure is not getting over 3. Does anyone have a compressor for sale
or a kit to overhaul.
Gord with Yak 50 SN 01
===================================
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===================================
http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Start Mystery |
Sam if you had a valve stuck open on the cylinder or just not seated well y
our start would stop on that cylinder and the start=C2-air would escape t
hrough the open valve exhaust or intake as the air is injected into the cyl
inder on the power stroke. As for spinning fast and not starting=C2-I don
't have a clue.=0ABill Wade=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A Fr
om: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>=0ATo: yak-list@matronics.com =0ASent:
Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:43 PM=0ASubject: Yak-List: Engine Start Mystery=0A
=0A=0A=0AThis is a "good" one... I fly my CJ6 with the M-14p engine over a
decade and have never seen or heard of this happening.=C2- I'd appreciate
any ideas shedding light on this mystery...=0A=0AEarlier today upon return
ing from a routine acro practice flight, taxied to the fuel pump and perfor
med a normal shutdown.=0A=0AAfter fueling and as a practice before each sta
rt, I have my GIB rotate the prop by hand a few blades as I prime (a little
when engine is hot).=C2- My GIB reported that the first two blades were
tight with normal feel of compression but the next blade was very soft.=C2
- I didn=99t think much of it and asked him to hop in and I commenc
ed with normal engine start procedure.=0AUpon pressing the Air-Start button
, the blades rotated in an amazingly fast rate - much faster than normal st
art rotation speed - as if there was no compression in the cylinders...=C2
- Moreover, there was no ignition whatsoever during this fast rotation.
=C2- I released the start button, waited a minute and tried again - same
high speed rotation and no ignition...=0A=0AAt this time I got very worried
and thought that the rear segment of the crankshaft somehow sheared off (o
n shutdown??)!=C2- Spent about 10 minutes with my knowledgeable GIB tryi
ng to figure out what could have happened.=C2- At that point, I asked him
to try rotating the prop by hand and see if ANY of the cylinders have comp
ression.=C2- As he was turning the prop by hand, I could see his strain a
s he rotates blade by blade - he proceeded to report feeling normal compres
sion resistance on all blades.=C2- At this point I wanted to attempt anot
her start.=C2- GIB was back in the rear cockpit and I pressed the starter
button - engine started on the second blade (as it normally does)!=C2-
I have the JP Instrument 9 Cylinder unit where I can see CHT and EGT for al
l 9 cylinders - All showing normal!=0ATaxied back to hangar - Performed a M
agneto check - Normal.=C2- Oil, Fuel pressures and temps - normal.=C2-
I shut down again and re-started two additional times in an effort to dupli
cate the problem...=C2- Started perfectly normal each time.=0A=0ASo... wh
at the hell happened there?=C2- I am thinking a stuck intake valve but on
e stuck valve will not make the prop spin that fast on starting...=C2- Tw
o stuck valves?=C2- Three??=C2- Can that happen?=C2- If one did stick
, why wasn't there any ignition on the other cylinders?=C2- If the stick
ing valve was the intake valve on #7 cylinder (that gets most of the Primin
g flow), I can see no ignition condition but this is only a guess.=0A=0ASom
e engine info:=0AM14-P standard (360HP)=0ATotal time:=C2- 765 hours sinc
e new=0ALast compression check (4 months ago): 77 - 78 all cylinders=0AEngi
ne oil: Philips 25W60 multi viscosity oil=0ALast Valve Lash adjustment: 80
hours ago=0ASystem Air Pressure at first re-start attempt: 42 ATM, at last
(Fifth start) 28 ATM=0ALocation, Hot Miami, FL=0A=0AAnyone seen anything li
ke this before? Ideas?=0A=0AThank you in advance for any input,=0A=0ASam Sa
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt
============
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Start Mystery |
I agree with Bill if you had a valve stuck open, the engine would not kick
passed that cylinder. I had this happen on the HS6a with a burnt exhaust
valve. As for the super rotation - - - I am totally stumped. Pappy
In a message dated 6/3/2013 12:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bwade154@yahoo.com writes:
Sam if you had a valve stuck open on the cylinder or just not seated well
your start would stop on that cylinder and the start air would escape
through the open valve exhaust or intake as the air is injected into the
cylinder on the power stroke. As for spinning fast and not starting I don'
t have
a clue.
Bill Wade
From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:43 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Engine Start Mystery
(mailto:cd001633@mindspring.com) >
This is a "good" one... I fly my CJ6 with the M-14p engine over a decade
and have never seen or heard of this happening. I'd appreciate any ideas
shedding light on this mystery...
Earlier today upon returning from a routine acro practice flight, taxied to
the fuel pump and performed a normal shutdown.
After fueling and as a practice before each start, I have my GIB rotate
the prop by hand a few blades as I prime (a little when engine is hot). M
y
GIB reported that the first two blades were tight with normal feel of
compression but the next blade was very soft. I didn=99t think much
of it and
asked him to hop in and I commenced with normal engine start procedure.
Upon pressing the Air-Start button, the blades rotated in an amazingly
fast rate - much faster than normal start rotation speed - as if there was
no
compression in the cylinders... Moreover, there was no ignition whatsoeve
r
during this fast rotation. I released the start button, waited a minute
and tried again - same high speed rotation and no ignition...
At this time I got very worried and thought that the rear segment of the
crankshaft somehow sheared off (on shutdown??)! Spent about 10 minutes wi
th
my knowledgeable GIB trying to figure out what could have happened. At
that point, I asked him to try rotating the prop by hand and see if ANY of
the cylinders have compression. As he was turning the prop by hand, I cou
ld
see his strain as he rotates blade by blade - he proceeded to report
feeling normal compression resistance on all blades. At this point I want
ed to
attempt another start. GIB was back in the rear cockpit and I pressed the
starter button - engine started on the second blade (as it normally does)!
I have the JP Instrument 9 Cylinder unit where I can see CHT and EGT for
all 9 cylinders - All showing normal!
Taxied back to hangar - Performed a Magneto check - Normal. Oil, Fuel
pressures and temps - normal. I shut down again and re-started two additi
onal
times in an effort to duplicate the problem... Started perfectly normal
each time.
So... what the hell happened there? I am thinking a stuck intake valve
but one stuck valve will not make the prop spin that fast on starting...
Two
stuck valves? Three?? Can that happen? If one did stick, why wasn't
there any ignition on the other cylinders? If the sticking valve was the
intake valve on #7 cylinder (that gets most of the Priming flow), I can se
e no
ignition condition but this is only a guess.
Some engine info:
M14-P standard (360HP)
Total time: 765 hours since new
Last compression check (4 months ago): 77 - 78 all cylinders
Engine oil: Philips 25W60 multi viscosity oil
Last Valve Lash adjustment: 80 hours ago
System Air Pressure at first re-start attempt: 42 ATM, at last (Fifth
start) 28 ATM
Location, Hot Miami, FL
Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas?
Thank you in advance for any input,
Sam Sax
Miami ties such as List Un/Subscrip-= Photoshare, and much
mum/Navigator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigat
or?p; -->
_http://forums.matr -Matt Dralle, List=======
=
_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | RE: Engine start mystery |
I wonder, since the M14 is usually started with the mags off until it
fires if the engine was actually running on the shower of sparks in the
hot cylinder environment. The initial cylinder pull through with the
normal compression then the soft cylinder may have been the cylinder
actually burning residual fuel.
That would be similar to the early days of emission controls when the
engines tended to run on after shut down. This was due to the high heat
and the carburetor allowing fuel into the engine. Remember the shower
of sparks is retarded and with the hot engine it may have actually been
running.
Would have been interesting if the mags had been turned on while it was
spinning fast, probably would have started fine.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Start Mystery |
A freek alignment of the compression rings with the oil scavenge rings comes
to mind. As possible air start valve leaking. Any oil spray around the base
s of your air start valves? loose spark plugs will allow air leaking also. N
ot likely I know. Check the ceramic bases on your plugs also. You could have
blown the cores on a few of the plugs to if they are RU or Chinese. A fully
blown core will be a blow torch I know but not some that are cracked.
Just a few more thoughts on the the subject.
Doc`
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:50 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
> I agree with Bill if you had a valve stuck open, the engine would not kick
passed that cylinder. I had this happen on the HS6a with a burnt exhaust v
alve. As for the super rotation - - - I am totally stumped. Pappy
>
>
> In a message dated 6/3/2013 12:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bwade154@
yahoo.com writes:
> Sam if you had a valve stuck open on the cylinder or just not seated well y
our start would stop on that cylinder and the start air would escape through
the open valve exhaust or intake as the air is injected into the cylinder o
n the power stroke. As for spinning fast and not starting I don't have a clu
e.
> Bill Wade
>
> From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:43 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Engine Start Mystery
>
>
>
> This is a "good" one... I fly my CJ6 with the M-14p engine over a decade a
nd have never seen or heard of this happening. I'd appreciate any ideas s
hedding light on this mystery...
>
> Earlier today upon returning from a routine acro practice flight, taxied t
o the fuel pump and performed a normal shutdown.
>
> After fueling and as a practice before each start, I have my GIB rotate th
e prop by hand a few blades as I prime (a little when engine is hot). My GI
B reported that the first two blades were tight with normal feel of compress
ion but the next blade was very soft. I didn=99t think much of it and
asked him to hop in and I commenced with normal engine start procedure.
> Upon pressing the Air-Start button, the blades rotated in an amazingly fas
t rate - much faster than normal start rotation speed - as if there was no c
ompression in the cylinders... Moreover, there was no ignition whatsoever d
uring this fast rotation. I released the start button, waited a minute and t
ried again - same high speed rotation and no ignition...
>
> At this time I got very worried and thought that the rear segment of the c
rankshaft somehow sheared off (on shutdown??)! Spent about 10 minutes with m
y knowledgeable GIB trying to figure out what could have happened. At that p
oint, I asked him to try rotating the prop by hand and see if ANY of the cyl
inders have compression. As he was turning the prop by hand, I could see hi
s strain as he rotates blade by blade - he proceeded to report feeling norma
l compression resistance on all blades. At this point I wanted to attempt a
nother start. GIB was back in the rear cockpit and I pressed the starter bu
tton - engine started on the second blade (as it normally does)! I have the
JP Instrument 9 Cylinder unit where I can see CHT and EGT for all 9 cylinde
rs - All showing normal!
> Taxied back to hangar - Performed a Magneto check - Normal. Oil, Fuel pre
ssures and temps - normal. I shut down again and re-started two additional t
imes in an effort to duplicate the problem... Started perfectly normal each
time.
>
> So... what the hell happened there? I am thinking a stuck intake valve bu
t one stuck valve will not make the prop spin that fast on starting... Two s
tuck valves? Three?? Can that happen? If one did stick, why wasn't there a
ny ignition on the other cylinders? If the sticking valve was the intake va
lve on #7 cylinder (that gets most of the Priming flow), I can see no igniti
on condition but this is only a guess.
>
> Some engine info:
> M14-P standard (360HP)
> Total time: 765 hours since new
> Last compression check (4 months ago): 77 - 78 all cylinders
> Engine oil: Philips 25W60 multi viscosity oil
> Last Valve Lash adjustment: 80 hours ago
> System Air Pressure at first re-start attempt: 42 ATM, at last (Fifth star
t) 28 ATM
> Location, Hot Miami, FL
>
> Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas?
>
> Thank you in advance for any input,
>
> Sam Sax
> Miami ties such as List Un/Subscrip-= Photoshare, and much mum/Navigator
?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?p; --> http:
//forums.matr -Matt Dralle, List=======
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Say It Ain't So... |
Welcome to the Red Headed Step Children Club! Unless you fly American or an A
llied aircraft you just are not in the club.
I say screw them as I laugh all the way to and from the fuel pumps as my sor
tie rate beats them stupid!`
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 3, 2013, at 8:25 AM, Rico Jaeger <rijaeger@wausau.k12.wi.us> wrote:
> Just out of curiosity...I recently received my latest EAA WARBIRDS magazin
e and while perusing the coverage of Sun N' Fun, noted there was but a singl
e photo of an L-39 w/ a very conspicuous absence of any other Red Star aircr
aft. Assuming the event was well-attended by the Yak / CJ community, is ther
e a bit of shunning occurring here? Or am I just being a paranoid alarmist? A
ren't these aircraft bonified "WARBIRDS" - very active in promoting the spor
t and the joys of safe, semi-self-governed general aviation? This is not an a
ttempt to stir up a hornet's nest. Maybe the photos just "played out" that w
ay. And I am probably naively jumping to conclusions, but...where is the cov
erage / acknowledgement? There are Red Star forums, fly-by's, fly-out's, mas
s arrivals and tons of static representation. So...?
>
> --
> Rico Jaeger
> Choir / East High School
> General Music / Horace Mann
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Engine Start Mystery |
Thanks Pappy!
I am scratching my head on this fast rotation issue BIG Time! I may
have not primed enough thinking of a warm engine (only two strokes,
which were normally enough) but let=99s say not enough priming in
this case =93
But why the fast rotation? Air Tank Pressure was 42 ATM on the first
fast spinning attempt and 38 on the second fast spinning attempt.
Third attempt was successful with additional Priming and slower (normal)
rotation speed =93 35 ATM
Could anything shifted in the Air Distributor alignment only to return
to normal a few minutes later?
I told you this Mystery Challenge will be hard to crack! J
Any ideas? Anyone?
Sam
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cjpilot710@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine Start Mystery
I agree with Bill if you had a valve stuck open, the engine would not
kick passed that cylinder. I had this happen on the HS6a with a burnt
exhaust valve. As for the super rotation - - - I am totally stumped.
Pappy
In a message dated 6/3/2013 12:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bwade154@yahoo.com writes:
Sam if you had a valve stuck open on the cylinder or just not seated
well your start would stop on that cylinder and the start air would
escape through the open valve exhaust or intake as the air is injected
into the cylinder on the power stroke. As for spinning fast and not
starting I don't have a clue.
Bill Wade
From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:43 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Engine Start Mystery
This is a "good" one... I fly my CJ6 with the M-14p engine over a decade
and have never seen or heard of this happening. I'd appreciate any
ideas shedding light on this mystery...
Earlier today upon returning from a routine acro practice flight, taxied
to the fuel pump and performed a normal shutdown.
After fueling and as a practice before each start, I have my GIB rotate
the prop by hand a few blades as I prime (a little when engine is hot).
My GIB reported that the first two blades were tight with normal feel of
compression but the next blade was very soft. I didn=99t think
much of it and asked him to hop in and I commenced with normal engine
start procedure.
Upon pressing the Air-Start button, the blades rotated in an amazingly
fast rate - much faster than normal start rotation speed - as if there
was no compression in the cylinders... Moreover, there was no ignition
whatsoever during this fast rotation. I released the start button,
waited a minute and tried again - same high speed rotation and no
ignition...
At this time I got very worried and thought that the rear segment of the
crankshaft somehow sheared off (on shutdown??)! Spent about 10 minutes
with my knowledgeable GIB trying to figure out what could have happened.
At that point, I asked him to try rotating the prop by hand and see if
ANY of the cylinders have compression. As he was turning the prop by
hand, I could see his strain as he rotates blade by blade - he proceeded
to report feeling normal compression resistance on all blades. At this
point I wanted to attempt another start. GIB was back in the rear
cockpit and I pressed the starter button - engine started on the second
blade (as it normally does)! I have the JP Instrument 9 Cylinder unit
where I can see CHT and EGT for all 9 cylinders - All showing normal!
Taxied back to hangar - Performed a Magneto check - Normal. Oil, Fuel
pressures and temps - normal. I shut down again and re-started two
additional times in an effort to duplicate the problem... Started
perfectly normal each time.
So... what the hell happened there? I am thinking a stuck intake valve
but one stuck valve will not make the prop spin that fast on starting...
Two stuck valves? Three?? Can that happen? If one did stick, why
wasn't there any ignition on the other cylinders? If the sticking valve
was the intake valve on #7 cylinder (that gets most of the Priming
flow), I can see no ignition condition but this is only a guess.
Some engine info:
M14-P standard (360HP)
Total time: 765 hours since new
Last compression check (4 months ago): 77 - 78 all cylinders
Engine oil: Philips 25W60 multi viscosity oil
Last Valve Lash adjustment: 80 hours ago
System Air Pressure at first re-start attempt: 42 ATM, at last (Fifth
start) 28 ATM
Location, Hot Miami, FL
Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas?
Thank you in advance for any input,
Sam Sax
Miami ties such as List Un/Subscrip-= Photoshare, and much
mum/Navigator?Yak-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?p; -->
http://forums.matr <http://forums.matronics.com/>
-Matt Dralle, List========
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Yak-List
s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | RE: Engine start mystery |
Hi Frank,
Thank you for responding.
Interesting point - I believe you are referring to a "Dieseling Effect"
where combustion can occur in a hot cylinder on compression stroke when fuel
or fuel vapor is present. I am thinking that if this what occurred I would
have heard or seen some evidence of it, like popping or at least light smoke
from the exhaust. Also, the engine was at least 15 minutes if not more from
shut down (at the Gas Pump), so although very warm, it was not as hot to
facilitate Dieseling, I believe.
Sam
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Stelwagon
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 10:00 PM
Subject: Yak-List: RE: Engine start mystery
I wonder, since the M14 is usually started with the mags off until it fires
if the engine was actually running on the shower of sparks in the hot
cylinder environment. The initial cylinder pull through with the normal
compression then the soft cylinder may have been the cylinder actually
burning residual fuel.
That would be similar to the early days of emission controls when the
engines tended to run on after shut down. This was due to the high heat and
the carburetor allowing fuel into the engine. Remember the shower of sparks
is retarded and with the hot engine it may have actually been running.
Would have been interesting if the mags had been turned on while it was
spinning fast, probably would have started fine.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Engine Start Mystery |
Thanks Doc =93 I appreciate the input.
I will definitely followup on checking all the spark plugs (Chinese) as
I will on other basic engine tests such as Compression testing each
cylinder, Valve Lash / Rockers, checking the Oil Filter and Screen even
Cylinder base bolts (common problem in the Housai, not the M-14).
Still, I can=99t explain how any of the good suggestions for the
problem so far on the List, if true, disappeared on the third engine
start attempt where engine started and ran normally throughout the
entire Power/RPM range and subsequent shut downs and re-starts =93
all normal
The Mystery continues
Sam
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp
M.D.
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine Start Mystery
A freek alignment of the compression rings with the oil scavenge rings
comes to mind. As possible air start valve leaking. Any oil spray around
the bases of your air start valves? loose spark plugs will allow air
leaking also. Not likely I know. Check the ceramic bases on your plugs
also. You could have blown the cores on a few of the plugs to if they
are RU or Chinese. A fully blown core will be a blow torch I know but
not some that are cracked.
Just a few more thoughts on the the subject.
Doc`
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:50 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
I agree with Bill if you had a valve stuck open, the engine would not
kick passed that cylinder. I had this happen on the HS6a with a burnt
exhaust valve. As for the super rotation - - - I am totally stumped.
Pappy
In a message dated 6/3/2013 12:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bwade154@yahoo.com writes:
Sam if you had a valve stuck open on the cylinder or just not seated
well your start would stop on that cylinder and the start air would
escape through the open valve exhaust or intake as the air is injected
into the cylinder on the power stroke. As for spinning fast and not
starting I don't have a clue.
Bill Wade
From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:43 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Engine Start Mystery
This is a "good" one... I fly my CJ6 with the M-14p engine over a decade
and have never seen or heard of this happening. I'd appreciate any
ideas shedding light on this mystery...
Earlier today upon returning from a routine acro practice flight, taxied
to the fuel pump and performed a normal shutdown.
After fueling and as a practice before each start, I have my GIB rotate
the prop by hand a few blades as I prime (a little when engine is hot).
My GIB reported that the first two blades were tight with normal feel of
compression but the next blade was very soft. I didn=99t think
much of it and asked him to hop in and I commenced with normal engine
start procedure.
Upon pressing the Air-Start button, the blades rotated in an amazingly
fast rate - much faster than normal start rotation speed - as if there
was no compression in the cylinders... Moreover, there was no ignition
whatsoever during this fast rotation. I released the start button,
waited a minute and tried again - same high speed rotation and no
ignition...
At this time I got very worried and thought that the rear segment of the
crankshaft somehow sheared off (on shutdown??)! Spent about 10 minutes
with my knowledgeable GIB trying to figure out what could have happened.
At that point, I asked him to try rotating the prop by hand and see if
ANY of the cylinders have compression. As he was turning the prop by
hand, I could see his strain as he rotates blade by blade - he proceeded
to report feeling normal compression resistance on all blades. At this
point I wanted to attempt another start. GIB was back in the rear
cockpit and I pressed the starter button - engine started on the second
blade (as it normally does)! I have the JP Instrument 9 Cylinder unit
where I can see CHT and EGT for all 9 cylinders - All showing normal!
Taxied back to hangar - Performed a Magneto check - Normal. Oil, Fuel
pressures and temps - normal. I shut down again and re-started two
additional times in an effort to duplicate the problem... Started
perfectly normal each time.
So... what the hell happened there? I am thinking a stuck intake valve
but one stuck valve will not make the prop spin that fast on starting...
Two stuck valves? Three?? Can that happen? If one did stick, why
wasn't there any ignition on the other cylinders? If the sticking valve
was the intake valve on #7 cylinder (that gets most of the Priming
flow), I can see no ignition condition but this is only a guess.
Some engine info:
M14-P standard (360HP)
Total time: 765 hours since new
Last compression check (4 months ago): 77 - 78 all cylinders
Engine oil: Philips 25W60 multi viscosity oil
Last Valve Lash adjustment: 80 hours ago
System Air Pressure at first re-start attempt: 42 ATM, at last (Fifth
start) 28 ATM
Location, Hot Miami, FL
Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas?
Thank you in advance for any input,
Sam Sax
Miami ties such as List Un/Subscrip-= Photoshare, and much
mum/Navigator?Yak-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?p; -->
http://forums.matr <http://forums.matronics.com/>
-Matt Dralle, List========
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Yak-List
s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=========
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
=========
cs.com
=========
matronics.com/contribution
=========
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Start Mystery |
Agreed Sam, it has me scratching my head too!
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:19 PM, "Sam Sax" <cd001633@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Thanks Doc =93 I appreciate the input.
>
> I will definitely followup on checking all the spark plugs (Chinese) as I w
ill on other basic engine tests such as Compression testing each cylinder, V
alve Lash / Rockers, checking the Oil Filter and Screen even Cylinder base b
olts (common problem in the Housai, not the M-14).
>
> Still, I can=99t explain how any of the good suggestions for the pro
blem so far on the List, if true, disappeared on the third engine start atte
mpt where engine started and ran normally throughout the entire Power/RPM ra
nge and subsequent shut downs and re-starts =93 all normal
>
> The Mystery continues
>
> Sam
>
>
>
>
>
> From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D.
> Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 10:47 PM
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine Start Mystery
>
> A freek alignment of the compression rings with the oil scavenge rings com
es to mind. As possible air start valve leaking. Any oil spray around the ba
ses of your air start valves? loose spark plugs will allow air leaking also.
Not likely I know. Check the ceramic bases on your plugs also. You could ha
ve blown the cores on a few of the plugs to if they are RU or Chinese. A ful
ly blown core will be a blow torch I know but not some that are cracked.
> Just a few more thoughts on the the subject.
> Doc`
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:50 PM, cjpilot710@aol.com wrote:
>
> I agree with Bill if you had a valve stuck open, the engine would not kick
passed that cylinder. I had this happen on the HS6a with a burnt exhaust v
alve. As for the super rotation - - - I am totally stumped. Pappy
>
>
> In a message dated 6/3/2013 12:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bwade154@
yahoo.com writes:
> Sam if you had a valve stuck open on the cylinder or just not seated well y
our start would stop on that cylinder and the start air would escape through
the open valve exhaust or intake as the air is injected into the cylinder o
n the power stroke. As for spinning fast and not starting I don't have a clu
e.
> Bill Wade
>
> From: Sam Sax <cd001633@mindspring.com>
> To: yak-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:43 PM
> Subject: Yak-List: Engine Start Mystery
>
>
>
> This is a "good" one... I fly my CJ6 with the M-14p engine over a decade a
nd have never seen or heard of this happening. I'd appreciate any ideas she
dding light on this mystery...
>
> Earlier today upon returning from a routine acro practice flight, taxied t
o the fuel pump and performed a normal shutdown.
>
> After fueling and as a practice before each start, I have my GIB rotate th
e prop by hand a few blades as I prime (a little when engine is hot). My GI
B reported that the first two blades were tight with normal feel of compress
ion but the next blade was very soft. I didn=99t think much of it and
asked him to hop in and I commenced with normal engine start procedure.
> Upon pressing the Air-Start button, the blades rotated in an amazingly fas
t rate - much faster than normal start rotation speed - as if there was no c
ompression in the cylinders... Moreover, there was no ignition whatsoever d
uring this fast rotation. I released the start button, waited a minute and t
ried again - same high speed rotation and no ignition...
>
> At this time I got very worried and thought that the rear segment of the c
rankshaft somehow sheared off (on shutdown??)! Spent about 10 minutes with m
y knowledgeable GIB trying to figure out what could have happened. At that p
oint, I asked him to try rotating the prop by hand and see if ANY of the cyl
inders have compression. As he was turning the prop by hand, I could see hi
s strain as he rotates blade by blade - he proceeded to report feeling norma
l compression resistance on all blades. At this point I wanted to attempt a
nother start. GIB was back in the rear cockpit and I pressed the starter bu
tton - engine started on the second blade (as it normally does)! I have the
JP Instrument 9 Cylinder unit where I can see CHT and EGT for all 9 cylinde
rs - All showing normal!
> Taxied back to hangar - Performed a Magneto check - Normal. Oil, Fuel pre
ssures and temps - normal. I shut down again and re-started two additional t
imes in an effort to duplicate the problem... Started perfectly normal each
time.
>
> So... what the hell happened there? I am thinking a stuck intake valve bu
t one stuck valve will not make the prop spin that fast on starting... Two s
tuck valves? Three?? Can that happen? If one did stick, why wasn't there a
ny ignition on the other cylinders? If the sticking valve was the intake va
lve on #7 cylinder (that gets most of the Priming flow), I can see no igniti
on condition but this is only a guess.
>
> Some engine info:
> M14-P standard (360HP)
> Total time: 765 hours since new
> Last compression check (4 months ago): 77 - 78 all cylinders
> Engine oil: Philips 25W60 multi viscosity oil
> Last Valve Lash adjustment: 80 hours ago
> System Air Pressure at first re-start attempt: 42 ATM, at last (Fifth star
t) 28 ATM
> Location, Hot Miami, FL
>
> Anyone seen anything like this before? Ideas?
>
> Thank you in advance for any input,
>
> Sam Sax
> Miami ties such as List Un/Subscrip-= Photoshare, and much mum/Navigator
?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?p; --> http:
//forums.matr -Matt Dralle, List=======
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Yak-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
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