---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/16/13: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:45 AM - Re: CJ condition inspection...a few questions (skidmk) 2. 11:13 AM - Re: More oil leakage (skidmk) 3. 01:28 PM - Re: CJ condition inspection...a few questions (keithmckinley) 4. 04:29 PM - Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (migjockey) 5. 04:36 PM - Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (migjockey) 6. 04:43 PM - Re: Avionics (migjockey) 7. 05:06 PM - Re: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (Kendal Simpson) 8. 05:19 PM - Re: Engine teardown after prop strike Questions (Roger Kemp M.D.) 9. 05:26 PM - Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (migjockey) 10. 05:46 PM - Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (Roger Kemp M.D.) 11. 06:34 PM - Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (migjockey) 12. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (gord) 13. 06:52 PM - SNJ T 6 Checkout Aerobatics (Roger Kemp M.D.) 14. 07:16 PM - Re: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (gord) 15. 08:37 PM - Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (keithmckinley) 16. 08:37 PM - Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (migjockey) 17. 08:39 PM - Re: SNJ T 6 Checkout Aerobatics (keithmckinley) 18. 09:08 PM - Re: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (Walter Lannon) 19. 09:17 PM - Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 (migjockey) 20. 10:46 PM - Re: Stainless Gill Vane Screws (keithmckinley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:13 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: CJ condition inspection...a few questions From: "skidmk" Hey buddy,,, typical Important stuff not replied to, I guess arguments about mmo and nomex are more interesting. I would send these questions direct to Walt Lannon. An amazing resource, and always a gentleman. cheers,,, p.s hope to see you in Easton for the chicken drop. -------- Mike "Skidmk" Bourget Ottawa, Ontario Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404765#404765 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:23 AM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: More oil leakage From: "skidmk" Gents,,,, going to try and chase down some leaks are selves this weekend. We never thought to consider tightening bolts held in place with the tabs. (thanks) without sounding too dumbass,,, pushing these tabs our of place? special tool? screwdriver? pliers? any tips? thanks M -------- Mike "Skidmk" Bourget Ottawa, Ontario Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404767#404767 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:16 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: CJ condition inspection...a few questions From: "keithmckinley" Hi Mike! Shoot me an email off list! keith@mckinley.us -------- Keith McKinley 700HS X26 Sebastian, FL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404774#404774 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:30 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 From: "migjockey" I have been playing around, trying to get a great slow roll out of the Yak 52. I've been entering at around 250kph. If I use medium right ailerons, I have to really get the nose up quite high...cheating...in order to come out reasonably well! If I use full ailerons, things get better. I realize I can use a higher entry speed as well. Anyone out there have some suggestions, comments, criticisms. Be my guest, fire away and thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404783#404783 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:09 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 From: "migjockey" A few more comments about my inquiry. I am asking about a slow roll, not an aileron roll; that is, I'm trying to get that "sacred circle" small and just above the horizon. I was hoping to get to the point where I could get a a "slow" roll executed, but it seems difficult getting a good knife edge as I go through the 90 and 270 degree positions from a 250kph entry speed. With full deflection things go much better (no surprise) but wouldn't it be nice to get one of those graceful slow rolls. Of course, one can always do this with...now what do they call it...oh yes, better skills! Hey, give me a break!!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404784#404784 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:25 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Avionics From: "migjockey" Thanks to everyone for their comments. Right now I'm exploring MGL because they are located in Torrance, California, not far from my home base, Santa Paula, California. They offer their V6 and V6R, both of which are 6+ watts units. The V6 is around 4.25 inches in depth and the V6R is a remote unit (like the Balkan-5). Both models can be remotely controlled and both have built-in intercoms. Matt, the owner of MGL told me he will have their remote head available in a few months. If so, one could have the V6 mounted up front with a remote control head in the rear cockpit. Or the V6R mounted where the Balkan is located with remote control heads in each of the cockpits. As always, comments and suggestions are welcome. And thanks again for your comments to date. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404785#404785 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 From: Kendal Simpson Haven't flown a 52 but what I can say is that the "sacred circle" isn't very small in most aircraft that aren't unlimited acro machines! Bottom of the circle is straight and level flight at that airspeed, top of the circle is straight and level inverted at that airspeed... Then you fill in the sides. That's usually quite a pitch change in nose attitude from one to the other. The trick is to smoothly transition from the low point to the inverted high point then back again. It rrally is a finess thing especially when control surfaces are limited in travel/authority. Try just completing half the roll to inverted first, fly along inverted straight and level, then complete the second half. Really it's one of the hardest maneuvers to truely do really well since all the controll surfaces are constantly moving to keep the nose exactly where it should be. Good luck and have fun Kendal www.acronut.com On Jul 16, 2013, at 19:32, "migjockey" wrote: > > A few more comments about my inquiry. I am asking about a slow roll, not an aileron roll; that is, I'm trying to get that "sacred circle" small and just above the horizon. I was hoping to get to the point where I could get a a "slow" roll executed, but it seems difficult getting a good knife edge as I go through the 90 and 270 degree positions from a 250kph entry speed. With full deflection things go much better (no surprise) but wouldn't it be nice to get one of those graceful slow rolls. Of course, one can always do this with...now what do they call it...oh yes, better skills! Hey, give me a break!!!! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404784#404784 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Engine teardown after prop strike Questions From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Mark, I agree with your comments but how do you verify that the Idler gears on the super charger and the accessory spider gears do not have cracked or chipped teeth. Have to crack the supercharger and accessory case for that. The nose case is simple. The rest is a pain in the ass. Those damned air start lines are a real pill to deal with. Doc Sent from my iPad On Jul 15, 2013, at 3:07 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" wrote: > > If the timing on the engine is OK, 90% of the stuff you just listed is unnecessary Doc. However, it is of course your call! That said, my whole point all along is that every situation differs and that needs to be taken into consideration. There is no "ONE ANSWER" and we should stay away from any document that promotes that way of thinking. > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 13:59 > To: yak-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Yak-List: Engine teardown after prop strike Questions > > > No Mark I am not implying total tear down but to access the accessry drive shaft, inspect and magnaflux or dye penetrate the gear box and do a master crank run out your have to take the nose case off the engine. The baffles will have to be removed so you can take the air start lines off to seperate the supercharger case from the crank case. The intake tubes and the exhaust manifold has to be removed. The Oil Sump has to be removed. You can try to leave the carb on but you will find out that to pull the supercharger and to seperate the accessory case all of the attached accessories need to be out of your way. Since you want to look at the journals on the crank too the cylinders need to come off. No the rockers do not need to be pulled but to get to the base of the connecting rod the cylinders need to come off. Now to inspect the accessory drive shaft and the super charger idler gear the super charger section and the accessory drive section are going to have to be seperated. T! > o do that the air lines from the spider (air start distributor) have to come off. It is a bit ill managable if you do not. You can try to leave the mags and the compressor on but you will be cursing yourself for trying that after about an hour. Yes you can do it though. > I've been there and I have the damned T shirt. >> From my stand point if I am going that far why not pull the whole damned thing down so I can see the teeth and dye penetrate all of the gears in the gear box and the accessory drive along with the crown gear on the crank shaft, the idler gear that drive the timing cam plate, the accessory gear for the prop governor. > Therer is no real simple easy way to do this with out tearing the engine down. Since mine plopped down on the ground I want to look at the cylinder base studs, the crank case through studs for the mounting ring and the cylinder head baffle mounting studs. Not everybody will require that since 90% of the M-14's flying have a protruding nose wheel to protect them when the gear collapses. > There is more to mine than most so that is for sure. > I am not implying that everyone should have to completely tear one down. Mine is at the extreme. > I am not going into how the metal got in the original engine that is at the began this saga. Yes, the plan is to let Monty take this one apart because I am tired of tearing M-14's down and putting them back togather. > Like farts, man, there are loud oderless and on the other end there are silent but deadly ones. There is a spectrum across the bell shaped curve. In this case, since this engine will be pulling my rosey pink eventually, I want it right. > By the way there was nothing wrong with this engine after it was reassembles before it took the grass field slide. Don't really expect anything to be wrong with it this time either but I need to go through the exercise. > Doc > > -----Original Message----- >> From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" >> Sent: Jul 15, 2013 10:17 AM >> To: yak-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Engine teardown after prop strike Questions >> >> --> >> >> Since you checked back in, I will reply to your comment Doc. >> >> You take a very interesting point of view regarding your "rosy red pink". You are suggesting that safety dictates a total tear down for the purpose of safety. >> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:33 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 From: "migjockey" Thanks Kendal. I've pretty much already done everything you mentioned. So far, it appears that at around 250kph entry speed, with moderate aileron inputs, I find that I really have to hold the Yak 52's nose quite high when inverted to maintain altitude as I continue to roll to the second knife edge. Of course, with a faster roll rate, it's not as necessary. Obviously, in other planes I've flown, like the Pitts with its symmetrical wings and such, the need for a high nose attitude is kind of moot. What challenges me is that I recall seeing Sergei Boriak do slow rolls in the Yak 52, and it didn't appear that he was holding its nose as high, but at that time, I didn't ask him what entry speed he uses. And, of course, he has just a wee bit more hours in Yaks than me...yeah, just a wee bit!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404790#404790 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: Yak-List: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Are you trying to do a slow aileron roll or do a barrel roll. What are you doing with your rudder during these rolls? To do a slow roll you are pretty much doing a barrel roll. You need opposite top rudder to your aileron input as you enter the 90 degree and 270 degree points in the roll. Pitch up 10-15 degrees, freeze the pitch, start your roll with ailerons in direction you want to roll smoothly feed in top rudder to keep the nose up in the knife edge part of he roll as you approach inverted bunt hard to keep the nose up 1 maybe 2 negative G's then repeat top rudder on the 270 deg. Side off the roll. Approaching the erect phase coordinate the control neutralizing the ailerons and rudder as you approach the horizon finishing the roll 10 degrees nose below the horizon. Apply aft stick as needed to keep it near that finishing attitude. If you pan out don't try to save it with a hard pull especially if you got slow and were uncoordinated on your controls. Practice three mistakes high. Google T-6 WWII Barrel Roll Training for a great instructional video on Barrel Rolls. The only slow roll I was ever taught was the Barrel Roll. The acro competitors on the list can correct me now. Sent from my iPad On Jul 16, 2013, at 6:25 PM, "migjockey" wrote: > > I have been playing around, trying to get a great slow roll out of the Yak 52. I've been entering at around 250kph. If I use medium right ailerons, I have to really get the nose up quite high...cheating...in order to come out reasonably well! If I use full ailerons, things get better. I realize I can use a higher entry speed as well. Anyone out there have some suggestions, comments, criticisms. Be my guest, fire away and thanks. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404783#404783 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:56 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 From: "migjockey" I'm talking about a slow roll, not an aileron roll or barrel roll. In the slow roll, as I start the first 90 degrees, I begin with just a smidgen of elevator to start the nose moving up...cheating if you will. As I continue to the first 90 knife edge, I'm not only using top rudder but I'm pushing slightly to maintain heading an achieve (theoretically) zero lift from the wings and only lift from the fuselage (knife edge). Then as I continue on to the 180 inverted position, It is here that I find I have to really push quite a bit of forward stick to maintain altitude. Somewhere around 10-20 degrees past inverted, I start switching rudder position to continue top rudder to hold the nose up. I also am reducing my forward stick, but not all of it, again to maintain direction and zero life from the wings. The last part of the roll is where my controls slowly return to neutral...sort of! Right now I'm experimenting with various entry speeds to see which ones allow me to achieve momentary knife edge. I really don't think the Yak 52 can hold it very long, but that's why I'm asking if someone can comment on this observation. Perhaps with better technique holding knife edge is achievable! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404795#404795 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:45 PM PST US From: "gord" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 The slow roll is a great manoeuvre, almost impossible to get perfection. Two hands in my YAK-50 is easier on the shoulder. Here is an explanation outlined in Bob O'Dells 'Aerobatics Today' published in 1980. Hope this helps. I am looking for my Neil Williams book. I think it has a good explanation too. Gord ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:34 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: SNJ T 6 Checkout Aerobatics From: "Roger Kemp M.D." Check out this video on YouTube: http://youtu.be/-Ku8HSqoZV8 A good review of intermediate acro granted done in WWII in a T 6 but still. Doc Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:21 PM PST US From: "gord" Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 I find that last knife edge is easier to control if I roll left. Not always possible in competition but I don't worry about that any more. Nose up and watch for the inverted flick... stay high and practice inverted spins. -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of migjockey Sent: July-16-13 9:32 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 I'm talking about a slow roll, not an aileron roll or barrel roll. In the slow roll, as I start the first 90 degrees, I begin with just a smidgen of elevator to start the nose moving up...cheating if you will. As I continue to the first 90 knife edge, I'm not only using top rudder but I'm pushing slightly to maintain heading an achieve (theoretically) zero lift from the wings and only lift from the fuselage (knife edge). Then as I continue on to the 180 inverted position, It is here that I find I have to really push quite a bit of forward stick to maintain altitude. Somewhere around 10-20 degrees past inverted, I start switching rudder position to continue top rudder to hold the nose up. I also am reducing my forward stick, but not all of it, again to maintain direction and zero life from the wings. The last part of the roll is where my controls slowly return to neutral...sort of! Right now I'm experimenting with various entry speeds to see which ones allow me to achi! eve momentary knife edge. I really don't think the Yak 52 can hold it very long, but that's why I'm asking if someone can comment on this observation. Perhaps with better technique holding knife edge is achievable! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404795#404795 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:55 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 From: "keithmckinley" at the 50 minute mark of the SNJ film posted above all you'll ever need to know about the slow roll, courtesy of WWII Naval Aviation!! -------- Keith McKinley 700HS X26 Sebastian, FL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404805#404805 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:55 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 From: "migjockey" Thanks for the reply. Whenever I practice, I try to be at 3,000 AGL or higher. If I'm focusing on spins, especially inverted ones, I start out at 6,000 AGL. No point giving up that valuable altitude by starting low. It's analogous to leaving that gas behind when filling up for a long cross country. I generally roll right in the Yak due to the rotation of the engine. I recall seeing a video online of someone doing a series of "fast" slow rolls and it looked like he had it nailed! That nose hardly moved and went around in relatively small circles just above the horizon. If anyone knows where I can find that video again, I'd be very appreciative. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404804#404804 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:03 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: SNJ T 6 Checkout Aerobatics From: "keithmckinley" Classic Joe! -------- Keith McKinley 700HS X26 Sebastian, FL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404806#404806 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:15 PM PST US From: "Walter Lannon" Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 I think you are right on track with the slow roll but, as Gord pointed out, perfection is elusive. It can be compared to the golf swing in many respects! The occasional good one where the control changes are fluid and perfectly co-ordinated is a joy to complete as you will eventually find. For me it is maybe one out of ten and in the Harvard and CJ you pay for that by wiping the oil off the belly (no inverted system like the '52). But what the hell - it's worth it. Walt -----Original Message----- From: migjockey Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 6:31 PM Subject: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 I'm talking about a slow roll, not an aileron roll or barrel roll. In the slow roll, as I start the first 90 degrees, I begin with just a smidgen of elevator to start the nose moving up...cheating if you will. As I continue to the first 90 knife edge, I'm not only using top rudder but I'm pushing slightly to maintain heading an achieve (theoretically) zero lift from the wings and only lift from the fuselage (knife edge). Then as I continue on to the 180 inverted position, It is here that I find I have to really push quite a bit of forward stick to maintain altitude. Somewhere around 10-20 degrees past inverted, I start switching rudder position to continue top rudder to hold the nose up. I also am reducing my forward stick, but not all of it, again to maintain direction and zero life from the wings. The last part of the roll is where my controls slowly return to neutral...sort of! Right now I'm experimenting with various entry speeds to see which ones allow me to achi! eve momentary knife edge. I really don't think the Yak 52 can hold it very long, but that's why I'm asking if someone can comment on this observation. Perhaps with better technique holding knife edge is achievable! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404795#404795 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:54 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52 From: "migjockey" You got that right. When everything works right, it's a joy. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404810#404810 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:10 PM PST US Subject: Yak-List: Re: Stainless Gill Vane Screws From: "keithmckinley" Hi Jeff, Emails are not going through...How have you been! -------- Keith McKinley 700HS X26 Sebastian, FL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404818#404818 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.