Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:37 AM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (cjpilot710@aol.com)
2. 08:10 AM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (Jay Land)
3. 09:22 AM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (Jon Blake)
4. 10:01 AM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (Terry Calloway)
5. 10:34 PM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (airmanv2)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
Bruno,
I agree with Todd and DaBear (aka Dead Bear). Getting some dual with
someone who's done acro in the CJ is a very smart idea. However IF you already
have a lot of acro time in other aircraft, go up high and go at it. The
CJ can do just about any acrobatic maneuver you want to try. Tail slides
are NOT recommend - the tail structure really isn't up it and cracks have
been found in the front spar of the horizontal stabilizer. And for God sake
stay within the G limits. For normal stuff, I've never been over 4gs.
In 2008 at the 50th anniversary celebration of the CJ at OSH, "Gabby" Lang
did an beautiful acrobatic routine during the Warbird part of the show
(first time that was ever done). You still might find it on YouTube. It
included a square loop, 8 point rolls, and a snap roll at the top of a loop.
This was in a standard powered CJ with the 285hp HS-6A engine. You'll find
the CJ is not a "snappy" performer. "Majestic" might be the best word and
one I often heard in the crowds. So she's uses a lot of altitude. She will
do flat spins that require positive control inputs to recover but are not
exotic. She does not like high speed snaps rolls (as a matter of fact I
haven't been able to get her to do one). I have done them at 70 kts or so.
Spin entries are normal HOWEVER if you do a cross control stall with the
gear and flaps down, be prepared for a vicious snap and lot of altitude loss.
The airplane gives you plenty of warning approaching stalls. On hammer
heads, you'll find it very hard or not possible to do one to the left.
She'll do them readily to the right.
Once again I recommend that you ride with someone who's done acro in a CJ
particularly if you new to acrobatic. I speak from experience. Year ago I
had built a Pitts Special. One evening, a young man called me for some
advice on the Pitts he was building. In the discussion we were also talking
about the different maneuvers. One was the hammer head turn. The very
next day, he tried this maneuver - at low altitude - in a Piper Tri-Pacer -
with a student. It went up - but it came down right into the airport's gas
pumps. He had some acrobatic time.
>From your post we can't tell if you're high time pilot with lots of acro
time or you're new and want to get into airshows flying. If the latter, the
more experience you get at higher altitude the longer you will live at the
lower altitudes. My instructor and boss at one time was Mary T Gaffaney.
In 72 she was the Women's World Acrobatic Champion, first American to ever
win it. (At 90 she is in a nurseing home now with dementia). For every 5
or 10 minute airshow routine she did, she would put in AT LEAST 5 to 6
hours of practice often at higher altitudes than she performed. There is just
no substitute for experience that comes with practice.
Gosh this went longer than I expected. I got to go work on my CJ!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/14/2014 11:47:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
todd@fastaircraft.com writes:
Also suggest you join ICAS and get an ACE if you want to do displays if
you are in the USA.
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: _todd@fastaircraft.com_ (mailto:todd@fastaircraft.com)
_www.fastaircraft.com_ (http://www.fastaircraft.com/)
On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:39 PM, "DaBear" <_dabear@damned.org_
(mailto:dabear@damned.org) > wrote:
(mailto:dabear@damned.org) >
So, I'd recommend you get acro instruction from someone qualified in the
CJ6A. Also, building the program you want to use is extremely important
part of the process to get your acro card. Through that process you'll
figure out the energy states, airspeeds, altitudes, etc. Again, I
recommend
you seek out a qualified acro instructor with airshow experience.
Bear
-----Original Message-----
From: _owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com)
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Aerobatic with CJ6A
On Feb 14, 2014, at 15:29, "airmanv2" <_bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com_
(mailto:bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com) > wrote:
--> <_bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com_ (mailto:bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com) >
Hello,
What are the indicated airspeeds to be use with a CJ6A for aerobatic
flights?
What could be a program to present it in a show?
Thank you in advance for your help.
Bruno
--------
Fly safe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418715#418715
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dpp_1201_585.jpg
http://forums.matronics.==================================================</
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NBF="HTTP: www.matronics.com
contribution?>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
Pappy
Here=92s a link to one of Gabby=92s early practice sessions when he was sor
ting out some of the maneuvers for the Oshkosh show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt16_i_IcOQ
I haven=92t found the actual show footage yet.
At this point Alex =93Gabby=94 Land had already flown in the Advanced World
Aerobatic Championships in a Sukhoi so even at only 18 he had an unbelieva
ble amount of aerobatic experience.
It is our belief that no one should attempt any aerobatics in any type of p
lane without getting proper instruction. On your own, too many things can
go wrong and at best on your own you may learn improper techniques that can
kill you when you fly lower. We all know enough dead guys.
New CJ pilots should go up with an instructor, screw up lots and lots of ma
neuvers and see what it takes to recover and how much altitude you can loos
e in a hurry before you figure out what went wrong. The CJ is a really fun
=93gentleman=92s aerobatics=94 plane and very easy to fly. It=92s underpo
wered for acro and has no rudder authority with a structurally weak tail.
Get some instruction and learn to fly it well and you=92ll love it and not
bend it.
Jay Land
On 2/15/14 9:36 AM, "cjpilot710@aol.com" <cjpilot710@aol.com> wrote:
Bruno,
I agree with Todd and DaBear (aka Dead Bear). Getting some dual with someo
ne who's done acro in the CJ is a very smart idea. However IF you already
have a lot of acro time in other aircraft, go up high and go at it. The CJ
can do just about any acrobatic maneuver you want to try. Tail slides are
NOT recommend - the tail structure really isn't up it and cracks have been
found in the front spar of the horizontal stabilizer. And for God sake st
ay within the G limits. For normal stuff, I've never been over 4gs.
In 2008 at the 50th anniversary celebration of the CJ at OSH, "Gabby" Lang
did an beautiful acrobatic routine during the Warbird part of the show (fir
st time that was ever done). You still might find it on YouTube. It inclu
ded a square loop, 8 point rolls, and a snap roll at the top of a loop. Th
is was in a standard powered CJ with the 285hp HS-6A engine. You'll find t
he CJ is not a "snappy" performer. "Majestic" might be the best word and o
ne I often heard in the crowds. So she's uses a lot of altitude. She will
do flat spins that require positive control inputs to recover but are not
exotic. She does not like high speed snaps rolls (as a matter of fact I ha
ven't been able to get her to do one). I have done them at 70 kts or so.
Spin entries are normal HOWEVER if you do a cross control stall with the ge
ar and flaps down, be prepared for a vicious snap and lot of altitude loss.
The airplane gives you plenty of warning approaching stalls. On hammer he
ads, you'll find it very hard or not possible to do one to the left. She'l
l do them readily to the right.
Once again I recommend that you ride with someone who's done acro in a CJ p
articularly if you new to acrobatic. I speak from experience. Year ago I
had built a Pitts Special. One evening, a young man called me for some adv
ice on the Pitts he was building. In the discussion we were also talking a
bout the different maneuvers. One was the hammer head turn. The very next
day, he tried this maneuver - at low altitude - in a Piper Tri-Pacer - wit
h a student. It went up - but it came down right into the airport's gas pu
mps. He had some acrobatic time.
>From your post we can't tell if you're high time pilot with lots of acro ti
me or you're new and want to get into airshows flying. If the latter, the
more experience you get at higher altitude the longer you will live at the
lower altitudes. My instructor and boss at one time was Mary T Gaffaney.
In 72 she was the Women's World Acrobatic Champion, first American to ever
win it. (At 90 she is in a nurseing home now with dementia). For every 5
or 10 minute airshow routine she did, she would put in AT LEAST 5 to 6 hour
s of practice often at higher altitudes than she performed. There is just
no substitute for experience that comes with practice.
Gosh this went longer than I expected. I got to go work on my CJ!
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/14/2014 11:47:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, todd@fast
aircraft.com writes:
Also suggest you join ICAS and get an ACE if you want to do displays if yo
u are in the USA.
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd@fastaircraft.com
www.fastaircraft.com <http://www.fastaircraft.com/>
On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:39 PM, "DaBear" <dabear@damned.org> wrote:
So, I'd recommend you get acro instruction from someone qualified in the
CJ6A. Also, building the program you want to use is extremely important
part of the process to get your acro card. Through that process you'll
figure out the energy states, airspeeds, altitudes, etc. Again, I recomm
end
you seek out a qualified acro instructor with airshow experience.
Bear
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Aerobatic with CJ6A
On Feb 14, 2014, at 15:29, "airmanv2" <bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com> wrote:
--> <bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com>
Hello,
What are the indicated airspeeds to be use with a CJ6A for aerobatic
flights?
What could be a program to present it in a show?
Thank you in advance for your help.
Bruno
--------
Fly safe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418715#418715
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dpp_1201_585.jpg
http://forums.matronics.=================
========</SPNBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;
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SP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBSP;&NBF="HTTP: www.matronics.com contribution?>h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://forums.matronics.com> ==
=========
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
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| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
Bruno,
I agree with all that has been said for the most part thus far.
The one thing that comes thru loud and clear is the recommendation for a qualified
instructor. I recommend Sergei Boriak or Debbie Gary only because these are
two of the best instructors I worked with. Another great air show instructor
I have not had lessons with, but know and have heard good things about is Greg
Koontz. Im sure there are plenty more and even more opinions.
As far as speeds go, I practice at all speeds. For example the loop in a CJ-6,
someone may like an ideal entry air speed of 285 KPH. When I practice, I do
one at 285 then 275 then 265 then 255 then 245 and so forth until finally it just
cannot happen. Practicing like this gives me a much better understanding
of the airplane and when the day comes along I'm out there in front of the crowd
and realize I inadvertantly pulled at 230, I know what to expect.
The program you design should always be designed around your own skill level not
what you think the crowd is expecting to see. Also, we always found the simplest
maneuvers were what impressed the spectator the most. Go figure.
Good luck in your endeavors and by all means put safety first, second, and even
third.
Pumper
On Feb 14, 2014, at 4:29 PM, airmanv2 <bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> What are the indicated airspeeds to be use with a CJ6A for aerobatic flights?
> What could be a program to present it in a show?
>
> Thank you in advance for your help.
>
> Bruno
>
> --------
> Fly safe
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418715#418715
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dpp_1201_585.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A |
hello guys,
thank you for all your advices . Of course i will not try any thing without a good
aerobatic instructor. And this is expected to be dome within the 2 next month.
but, I'm in France, and there is only one CJ6 allowed to fly in France at this
time (and since 5 month): mine . (there are only 5 in Europe , all on the UK registry).
My future Aerobatic instructor ask me : try to find the entrance speed usually
used for the usual aerobatic and try to have some advices to make it safe by getting
advices from pilots familiars with the type.
the idea is to be prepared to make a soft, safe, and demonstrated show with this
only CJ6 flying in France. (not to be prepared as a Champion)
Thanks for help
Bruno
--------
Fly safe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418778#418778
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