---------------------------------------------------------- Yak-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/15/14: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:37 AM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (cjpilot710@aol.com) 2. 08:10 AM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (Jay Land) 3. 09:22 AM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (Jon Blake) 4. 10:01 AM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (Terry Calloway) 5. 10:34 PM - Re: Aerobatic with CJ6A (airmanv2) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:49 AM PST US From: cjpilot710@aol.com Subject: Re: Yak-List: Aerobatic with CJ6A Bruno, I agree with Todd and DaBear (aka Dead Bear). Getting some dual with someone who's done acro in the CJ is a very smart idea. However IF you already have a lot of acro time in other aircraft, go up high and go at it. The CJ can do just about any acrobatic maneuver you want to try. Tail slides are NOT recommend - the tail structure really isn't up it and cracks have been found in the front spar of the horizontal stabilizer. And for God sake stay within the G limits. For normal stuff, I've never been over 4gs. In 2008 at the 50th anniversary celebration of the CJ at OSH, "Gabby" Lang did an beautiful acrobatic routine during the Warbird part of the show (first time that was ever done). You still might find it on YouTube. It included a square loop, 8 point rolls, and a snap roll at the top of a loop. This was in a standard powered CJ with the 285hp HS-6A engine. You'll find the CJ is not a "snappy" performer. "Majestic" might be the best word and one I often heard in the crowds. So she's uses a lot of altitude. She will do flat spins that require positive control inputs to recover but are not exotic. She does not like high speed snaps rolls (as a matter of fact I haven't been able to get her to do one). I have done them at 70 kts or so. Spin entries are normal HOWEVER if you do a cross control stall with the gear and flaps down, be prepared for a vicious snap and lot of altitude loss. The airplane gives you plenty of warning approaching stalls. On hammer heads, you'll find it very hard or not possible to do one to the left. She'll do them readily to the right. Once again I recommend that you ride with someone who's done acro in a CJ particularly if you new to acrobatic. I speak from experience. Year ago I had built a Pitts Special. One evening, a young man called me for some advice on the Pitts he was building. In the discussion we were also talking about the different maneuvers. One was the hammer head turn. The very next day, he tried this maneuver - at low altitude - in a Piper Tri-Pacer - with a student. It went up - but it came down right into the airport's gas pumps. He had some acrobatic time. >From your post we can't tell if you're high time pilot with lots of acro time or you're new and want to get into airshows flying. If the latter, the more experience you get at higher altitude the longer you will live at the lower altitudes. My instructor and boss at one time was Mary T Gaffaney. In 72 she was the Women's World Acrobatic Champion, first American to ever win it. (At 90 she is in a nurseing home now with dementia). For every 5 or 10 minute airshow routine she did, she would put in AT LEAST 5 to 6 hours of practice often at higher altitudes than she performed. There is just no substitute for experience that comes with practice. Gosh this went longer than I expected. I got to go work on my CJ! Jim "Pappy" Goolsby In a message dated 2/14/2014 11:47:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, todd@fastaircraft.com writes: Also suggest you join ICAS and get an ACE if you want to do displays if you are in the USA. Todd McCutchan T-34A & Yak-50 Cell: (260) 402-1740 E-mail: _todd@fastaircraft.com_ (mailto:todd@fastaircraft.com) _www.fastaircraft.com_ (http://www.fastaircraft.com/) On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:39 PM, "DaBear" <_dabear@damned.org_ (mailto:dabear@damned.org) > wrote: (mailto:dabear@damned.org) > So, I'd recommend you get acro instruction from someone qualified in the CJ6A. Also, building the program you want to use is extremely important part of the process to get your acro card. Through that process you'll figure out the energy states, airspeeds, altitudes, etc. Again, I recommend you seek out a qualified acro instructor with airshow experience. Bear -----Original Message----- From: _owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Aerobatic with CJ6A On Feb 14, 2014, at 15:29, "airmanv2" <_bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com_ (mailto:bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com) > wrote: --> <_bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com_ (mailto:bruno.blanchard2@gmail.com) > Hello, What are the indicated airspeeds to be use with a CJ6A for aerobatic flights? What could be a program to present it in a show? Thank you in advance for your help. Bruno -------- Fly safe Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418715#418715 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dpp_1201_585.jpg http://forums.matronics.==================================================http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:43 AM PST US From: Jay Land Subject: Re: Yak-List: Aerobatic with CJ6A Pappy Here=92s a link to one of Gabby=92s early practice sessions when he was sor ting out some of the maneuvers for the Oshkosh show. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt16_i_IcOQ I haven=92t found the actual show footage yet. At this point Alex =93Gabby=94 Land had already flown in the Advanced World Aerobatic Championships in a Sukhoi so even at only 18 he had an unbelieva ble amount of aerobatic experience. It is our belief that no one should attempt any aerobatics in any type of p lane without getting proper instruction. On your own, too many things can go wrong and at best on your own you may learn improper techniques that can kill you when you fly lower. We all know enough dead guys. New CJ pilots should go up with an instructor, screw up lots and lots of ma neuvers and see what it takes to recover and how much altitude you can loos e in a hurry before you figure out what went wrong. The CJ is a really fun =93gentleman=92s aerobatics=94 plane and very easy to fly. It=92s underpo wered for acro and has no rudder authority with a structurally weak tail. Get some instruction and learn to fly it well and you=92ll love it and not bend it. Jay Land On 2/15/14 9:36 AM, "cjpilot710@aol.com" wrote: Bruno, I agree with Todd and DaBear (aka Dead Bear). Getting some dual with someo ne who's done acro in the CJ is a very smart idea. However IF you already have a lot of acro time in other aircraft, go up high and go at it. The CJ can do just about any acrobatic maneuver you want to try. Tail slides are NOT recommend - the tail structure really isn't up it and cracks have been found in the front spar of the horizontal stabilizer. And for God sake st ay within the G limits. For normal stuff, I've never been over 4gs. In 2008 at the 50th anniversary celebration of the CJ at OSH, "Gabby" Lang did an beautiful acrobatic routine during the Warbird part of the show (fir st time that was ever done). You still might find it on YouTube. It inclu ded a square loop, 8 point rolls, and a snap roll at the top of a loop. Th is was in a standard powered CJ with the 285hp HS-6A engine. You'll find t he CJ is not a "snappy" performer. "Majestic" might be the best word and o ne I often heard in the crowds. So she's uses a lot of altitude. She will do flat spins that require positive control inputs to recover but are not exotic. She does not like high speed snaps rolls (as a matter of fact I ha ven't been able to get her to do one). I have done them at 70 kts or so. Spin entries are normal HOWEVER if you do a cross control stall with the ge ar and flaps down, be prepared for a vicious snap and lot of altitude loss. The airplane gives you plenty of warning approaching stalls. On hammer he ads, you'll find it very hard or not possible to do one to the left. She'l l do them readily to the right. Once again I recommend that you ride with someone who's done acro in a CJ p articularly if you new to acrobatic. I speak from experience. Year ago I had built a Pitts Special. One evening, a young man called me for some adv ice on the Pitts he was building. In the discussion we were also talking a bout the different maneuvers. One was the hammer head turn. The very next day, he tried this maneuver - at low altitude - in a Piper Tri-Pacer - wit h a student. It went up - but it came down right into the airport's gas pu mps. He had some acrobatic time. >From your post we can't tell if you're high time pilot with lots of acro ti me or you're new and want to get into airshows flying. If the latter, the more experience you get at higher altitude the longer you will live at the lower altitudes. My instructor and boss at one time was Mary T Gaffaney. In 72 she was the Women's World Acrobatic Champion, first American to ever win it. (At 90 she is in a nurseing home now with dementia). For every 5 or 10 minute airshow routine she did, she would put in AT LEAST 5 to 6 hour s of practice often at higher altitudes than she performed. There is just no substitute for experience that comes with practice. Gosh this went longer than I expected. I got to go work on my CJ! Jim "Pappy" Goolsby In a message dated 2/14/2014 11:47:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, todd@fast aircraft.com writes: Also suggest you join ICAS and get an ACE if you want to do displays if yo u are in the USA. Todd McCutchan T-34A & Yak-50 Cell: (260) 402-1740 E-mail: todd@fastaircraft.com www.fastaircraft.com On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:39 PM, "DaBear" wrote: So, I'd recommend you get acro instruction from someone qualified in the CJ6A. Also, building the program you want to use is extremely important part of the process to get your acro card. Through that process you'll figure out the energy states, airspeeds, altitudes, etc. Again, I recomm end you seek out a qualified acro instructor with airshow experience. Bear -----Original Message----- From: owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Geipel Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Yak-List: Aerobatic with CJ6A On Feb 14, 2014, at 15:29, "airmanv2" wrote: --> Hello, What are the indicated airspeeds to be use with a CJ6A for aerobatic flights? What could be a program to present it in a show? Thank you in advance for your help. Bruno -------- Fly safe Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418715#418715 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dpp_1201_585.jpg http://forums.matronics.================= ======== hello guys, thank you for all your advices . Of course i will not try any thing without a good aerobatic instructor. And this is expected to be dome within the 2 next month. but, I'm in France, and there is only one CJ6 allowed to fly in France at this time (and since 5 month): mine . (there are only 5 in Europe , all on the UK registry). My future Aerobatic instructor ask me : try to find the entrance speed usually used for the usual aerobatic and try to have some advices to make it safe by getting advices from pilots familiars with the type. the idea is to be prepared to make a soft, safe, and demonstrated show with this only CJ6 flying in France. (not to be prepared as a Champion) Thanks for help Bruno -------- Fly safe Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418778#418778 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message yak-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Yak-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/yak-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/yak-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.