Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:28 AM - Re: Gear Extender for Yak 55 (Rotatohead)
2. 04:57 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (Greg Wrobel)
3. 05:39 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (Ernest Martinez)
4. 05:48 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 05:58 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (Ernest Martinez)
6. 06:20 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (A. Dennis Savarese)
7. 06:53 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (Ernest Martinez)
8. 07:13 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (Ernest Martinez)
9. 08:23 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (Richard Hess)
10. 09:10 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (cjpilot710@aol.com)
11. 11:34 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (Ernest Martinez)
12. 11:40 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (A. Dennis Savarese)
13. 11:42 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (A. Dennis Savarese)
14. 11:52 AM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (Ernest Martinez)
15. 02:13 PM - Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? (Roger Kemp)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Gear Extender for Yak 55 |
yakflyr,
contact Wolfgang Seitz, owner of LY-TOY.
He should be able to help you with parts / templates.
Regards,
Bernhard
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429055#429055
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have
some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you
leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you
should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the
pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will
escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming
from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are
exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are
using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when
raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly
with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let
me know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>
> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up
> to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight
> I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I
> get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front
> flap handle.
>
> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a
> VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front
> handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air
> schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are
> leaking air back through to the front handle.
>
> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may
> have the leaky actuator.
>
> Ernie
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Hi Greg,
Thanks for your input. In fact this is my 2nd CJ and I'm aware of how to
use the flaps. There is no problem flying with the front flap handle in the
up position and I did so for the 7 years I owned my first airplane with no
issues whatsoever, but if one has an actuator leak then putting it in
neutral masks the problem somewhat.
The OTHER issue is that when I lowered the flaps using the REAR handle, a
very loud leak was evident in the FRONT cockpit, this is very bad, one
should be able to lower the flaps from the rear without depleting the air
system. And as I stated in my first email, the leak continued regardless of
the FRONT cockpit flap handle position.
To me this indicates a problem with the diverter valves, and I was waiting
for some confirmation form the experts in the group.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Greg Wrobel <clouddog22@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have
> some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you
> leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you
> should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the
> pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will
> escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming
> from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are
> exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are
> using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when
> raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly
> with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let
> me know.
> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>
>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up
>> to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight
>> I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I
>> get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front
>> flap handle.
>>
>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a
>> VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front
>> handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air
>> schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are
>> leaking air back through to the front handle.
>>
>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may
>> have the leaky actuator.
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>> *
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to
neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap
actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the
flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite
position, the flap actuator has nopressure in it, which acts like a
"shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side
pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was
not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap
actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say
the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the
flapslams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief
system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leakingwhen
you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem
by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system from leaking.
Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing
occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you
retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing
happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane
OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct
movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the
gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear
selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a
couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the
gear selector to the down position (second movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed
to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air
system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension.
That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position
(depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not
know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear
handle in neutral after moving the flapsdown or gear up.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>
> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I
> have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think).
> Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the
> flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral once they are up.
> This will relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from
> the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle area. That
> is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle is master. Always
> leave it in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try leaving
> the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps
> down. Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once they
> are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap
> handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
>
> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com
> <mailto:erniel29@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>
> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been
> chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap
> handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but
> if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the
> actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.
>
> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and
> got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what
> position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a
> quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it has to
> be that the diverter valves are leaking air back through to the
> front handle.
>
> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still
> may have the leaky actuator.
>
> Ernie
>
> *
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get
actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a
Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to
the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good
reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this
configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the
immediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral
> after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actuator.
> Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are
> currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap
> actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie:
> up side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam
> down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up.
> So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to
> the last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are
> landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic
> system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off"
> valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP
> position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in
> neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
>
> Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing
> occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you
> retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing
> happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane
> OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements
> to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is
> up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from
> neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds
> for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the
> down position (second movement).
>
> The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed
> to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system,
> assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That
> means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes
> the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
>
> BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not
> know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle
> in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
> Skype - Yakguy1
>
> On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>
> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have
> some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you
> leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you
> should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the
> pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will
> escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming
> from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are
> exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are
> using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when
> raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly
> with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let
> me know.
> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>
>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking
>> up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in
>> flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in
>> neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through
>> the front flap handle.
>>
>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a
>> VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front
>> handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air
>> schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are
>> leaking air back through to the front handle.
>>
>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may
>> have the leaky actuator.
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>> *
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral
positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting
the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the
actuators.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
> Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to
> get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has
> a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as
> opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't
> think of any good reason for a neutral position in the front, but in
> my case it's a bandaid.
>
> And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this
> configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral
> and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>> wrote:
>
> Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap
> handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you
> depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap
> handle to the position the flaps are currently in before you move
> the flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has
> nopressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side
> depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will
> slam down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam
> down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by
> moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the
> UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down,
> the flapslams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure
> relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system
> is leakingwhen you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't
> band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to
> keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
>
> Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same
> thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in
> neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators
> and the same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can
> anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two
> complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear down
> when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must
> repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from
> neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a couple of
> seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear
> selector to the down position (second movement).
>
> The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is
> designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the
> emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for
> emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed
> in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the
> emergency air valve is opened.
>
> BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I
> do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle
> or gear handle in neutral after moving the flapsdown or gear up.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263 <tel:334-285-6263>
> 334-546-8182 <tel:334-546-8182> (mobile)
> www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com>
> Skype - Yakguy1
>
> On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>>
>> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and
>> I have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I
>> think). Why are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When
>> you put the flaps up. you should return the handle to neutral
>> once they are up. This will relive the pressure in the system The
>> air being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the
>> flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from.
>> The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you
>> are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral
>> unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in
>> the down position but when raising them, once they are up, put
>> the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap handle in
>> the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
>>
>> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com
>> <mailto:erniel29@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>
>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been
>> chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the
>> flap handle up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air
>> gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I
>> assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front flap
>> handle.
>>
>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar
>> and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter
>> what position the front handle was in, up, down or neutral.
>> After a quick glance at the air schematic I have concluded
>> that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air
>> back through to the front handle.
>>
>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I
>> still may have the leaky actuator.
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>> *
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are
different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would
need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the
student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position
for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now
prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need
for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just
there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Ernie,
> I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions
> on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or
> gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
>
> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
> Skype - Yakguy1
>
> On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>
> Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get
> actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a
> Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to
> the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good
> reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
>
> And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this
> configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the
> immediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to
>> neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap
>> actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the
>> flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite
>> position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a
>> "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side
>> pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system
>> was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the
>> flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in
>> (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps
>> down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure
>> relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is
>> leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't band-aide
>> the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the system
>> from leaking. Fix the problem!
>>
>> Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing
>> occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you
>> retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing
>> happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane
>> OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct
>> movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the
>> gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear
>> selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a
>> couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear
>> selector to the down position (second movement).
>>
>> The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed
>> to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system,
>> assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That
>> means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes
>> the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
>>
>> BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not
>> know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle
>> in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>
>> On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>>
>> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have
>> some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you
>> leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you
>> should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the
>> pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will
>> escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming
>> from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are
>> exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are
>> using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when
>> raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly
>> with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let
>> me know.
>> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>>
>>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking
>>> up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in
>>> flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in
>>> neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through
>>> the front flap handle.
>>>
>>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got
>>> a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the
>>> front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air
>>> schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are
>>> leaking air back through to the front handle.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may
>>> have the leaky actuator.
>>>
>>> Ernie
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front flap
handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and
brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no
brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an
isolation.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
>
> As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are
> different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would
> need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the
> student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position
> for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now
> prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need
> for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just
> there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Ernie,
>> I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions
>> on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or
>> gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
>>
>> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>
>> On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>>
>> Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get
>> actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a
>> Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to
>> the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good
>> reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
>>
>> And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this
>> configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the
>> immediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to
>>> neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap
>>> actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the
>>> flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite
>>> position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a
>>> "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side
>>> pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system
>>> was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the
>>> flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in
>>> (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the
>>> flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in
>>> pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your
>>> system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position,
>>> don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep
>>> the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
>>>
>>> Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same
>>> thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral
>>> after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same
>>> thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what
>>> airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct
>>> movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when
>>> the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear
>>> selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a
>>> couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear
>>> selector to the down position (second movement).
>>>
>>> The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is
>>> designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency
>>> air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear
>>> extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral position
>>> (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air valve is
>>> opened.
>>>
>>> BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not
>>> know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle
>>> in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
>>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>>
>>> On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>>>
>>> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have
>>> some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you
>>> leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you
>>> should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the
>>> pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will
>>> escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming
>>> from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are
>>> exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are
>>> using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when
>>> raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly
>>> with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let
>>> me know.
>>> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>>>
>>>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking
>>>> up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in
>>>> flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in
>>>> neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through
>>>> the front flap handle.
>>>>
>>>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got
>>>> a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the
>>>> front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air
>>>> schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are
>>>> leaking air back through to the front handle.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still
>>>> may have the leaky actuator.
>>>>
>>>> Ernie
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
=0AGuys,=0AEven Boeing airliners either have a neutral position
or depressurize the actuators after gear or flaps are raised
to take stress off the system seals, gaskets, etc. Some of
them actually free fall the gear and only pressurize the sid
e and drag brace over center down locks. One of our own
RPA guys actually went straight from neutral to down with hi
s gear after a low altitude midair a few years ago, thereb
y ensuring a quick configuration response. So, multiple benefits
to the neutral position.=0A=0A=0A=0ARichard Hess=0APresident=0AIntern
ational Jets, Inc.=0ACell 404-964-4885=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-
----=0AFrom: Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>=0ATo: yak-list <yak-
list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Fri, Aug 22, 2014 9:53 am=0ASubject: R
e: Yak-List: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves?????=0A=0A=0A=0AWell do te
ll Dennis, don't keep me guessing! =0A=0A=0AAs I understand it
, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are differen
t, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you
would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in ord
er to over ride the student in the front seat, and I und
erstand the need for a neutral position for the front gear
handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now pro
mpting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of
any need for a neutral position for the front flap handle
. As I stated it's just there because it's interchangeable w
ith the rear handle.=0A=0A=0AErnie=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Fri, Aug 22, 2
014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
wrote:=0A=0A=0AErnie, =0AI really do know why the airplanes (Yak
52 and CJ) have neutral positions on both the flap and
gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or gear
handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.=0A
=0A=0AA. Dennis Savarese34-285-626334-546-8182 (mobile)ww.yak-52.
comkype - Yakguy1=0A=0AOn 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez
wrote:=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AYep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've
been waiting for Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The
only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral Position
is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to
the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't thin
k of any good reason for a neutral position in the front,
but in my case it's a bandaid. =0A=0A=0AAnd with regards to
slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this configuration
I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the
immediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)=0A=0A=0AErnie
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Sa
varese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:=0A=0A=0ARegarding the flap
handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to neutral
after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap
actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to t
he position the flaps are currently in before you move the
flaps to the opposite position, the flap actuator has no pre
ssure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up si
de depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps w
ill slam down or up accordingly. The system was not desig
ned to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the
flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it
was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing)
BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The
pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It
is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking
when you have the flap handle in the UP position, don't ba
nd-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to
keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!=0A=0ARegardin
g doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same t
hing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector
in neutral after you retract the gear, you depressurize the
actuators and the same thing happens as it does with the f
laps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than the
CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to
put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when
the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by mo
ving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the
first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators
to repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down
position (second movement).=0A=0AThe only time the pneumatic syste
m and thus the landing gear is designed to "slam" down is
when one extends the gear with the emergency air system, ass
uming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension.
That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral pos
ition (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air
valve is opened.=0A=0ABTW, the Yak 52's system is basically th
e same as the CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying
a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in
neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.=0A=0ADennis =0A
=0A=0A=0AA. Dennis Savarese34-285-626334-546-8182 (mobile)ww.yak-
52.comkype - Yakguy1=0A=0AOn 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel w
rote:=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AErnest. Trust me, I like you, I am still l
earning my aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge b
ut I am getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the
handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up.
you should return the handle to neutral once they are up.
This will relive the pressure in the system The air being
relived from the flap actuators will escape thru the flap fr
ont handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. Th
e rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless
you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in
neutral unless you are using it. When putting flaps down.
Leave them in the down position but when raising them, once
they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly
with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see
what happens. Let me know.=0A=0AOn Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Er
nest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=0AHeres one for you
Air Heads out there :) =0A=0A=0AI've been aware of a leak
in my flap system that I have been chalking up to leaky
actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in
flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if
I leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed
the actuator was leaking back through the front flap handle.=0A
=0A=0AToday I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the
hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. D
idn't matter what position the front handle was in, up, down
or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic I
have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves
are leaking air back through to the front handle.=0A=0A=0AAny
thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I sti
ll may have the leaky actuator.=0A=0A=0AErnie=0A=0Aet="_blank">ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listp://forums.matronics.comblank">ht
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Aet="_blank">http
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listp://forums.matronics.comblank">http
://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Aet="_blan
k">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listp://forums.matronics.comblan
===========================
===========================
-= - The Yak-List Email Forum --=
Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse-= th
e many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,-= Archi
ve Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,-= Photoshare
, and much much more:-=-= --> http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?Yak-List-=-================
===========================
=================-=
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS --= Same great co
ntent also available via the Web Forums!-=-= -->
http://forums.matronics.com-=-==============
===========================
===================-=
- List Contribution Web Site --= Thank
you for your generous support!-=
-Matt Dralle, List A
dmin.-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution-====
===========================
===========================
===0A=0A=0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Years ago I had a chance to look at a Boeing manual for the B707 (about 1"
thick) and to compare it to the PAA's pilot's manuals (two books 1.5" thick
each) and the difference between PAA's and UAL emergency 747 check-list
was light years (PAA better BTW) and both 'approved' by the FAA. Lets just
say there is more than 3 ways to skin a cat. My CJ pneumatic system is
different than any other I've seen and there are 2 different systems in the
manual. My airplane has no up locks for the gear. It came that way. I have
to fly with the gear handle up all the time, or the air pressure will
slowly bleed down and my gear will fall down. That OK really. I've now owned
my CJ 20 years, and other than normal wear on seals, I've had no major
problems.
As too flaps, the system is very simple. If there is air coming from the
flap handle, with the handle up, and system pressure will not return to
normal (50 atmos), 99% of the time the leak is in the flap actuator seals.
With the handle in the middle the flap actuator is isolated. This is the
normal position for the flap handle in all phases of flight Expect prior to
landing and immediately after landing. There are 2 reasons for the bungee
cord on the flaps, as I see it. One to return the flaps to the up position
after a system leak down. And 2, as a 'shock absorber' of sorts when the
flap handle goes from neutral to down, with zero pressure in the actuator.
For a number of months I procrastinated changing the seals in my flap
actuator because it was leaking though the front flap handle. Simply keeping
the handle in the neutral position stopped the leaking. Where problem
manifested itself and made a difference, was AFTER landing when I would bring
the flap up and leave the handle up. I quickly noticed that my pressure was
not returning to normal and with brake applications, was getting lower. As
soon as I returned the flap handle to neutral, the leak stopped and
pressure return to normal. NOTE; At one point for some reason my system
regulator started allowing the pressure to build to 58-60 atoms. (I don't know
why. I just clean & adjusted it) however I was able to use that leak to bring
down the pressure in the system to normal. It got me home.
I know the Chinese manual says put gear & flaps handles in neutral after
selecting up, but I do not see where that makes a great deal of difference.
Some say it "takes pressure off the system" and that is not entirely true.
The "system" is still under pressure at least up to the gear and flap
handles. The regulator is still adjusting to maintain 50 atoms to the system
which includes the emergency air tank (on the CJ) and main tank. Constant
pressure on the seals really can't "wear" them because there is no
"movement" which is (and age) what really cause seal degradation. Thus the
importance of good lubrication.
As for fixing the flap diverter valves and the flap actuator would take
just a couple of hours total. Even if there is nothing with the diverter
valves, you can at least replace the steel springs with stainless steel springs
from ACE.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 8/22/2014 10:14:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
erniel29@gmail.com writes:
Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front
flap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and
brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no
brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an isolation.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <_erniel29@gmail.com_
(mailto:erniel29@gmail.com) > wrote:
Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are
different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would need
a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the student
in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position for the
front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now
prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a
neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there because
it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
<_dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net_ (mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net) > wrote:
Ernie,
I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positions
on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or
gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
A. Dennis Savarese
_334-285-6263_ (tel:334-285-6263)
_334-546-8182_ (tel:334-546-8182) (mobile)
_www.yak-52.com_ (http://www.yak-52.com/)
Skype - Yakguy1
On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get
actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neutral
Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the
Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason
for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this
configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the
immediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
<_dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net_ (mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net) > wrote:
Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to
neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap
actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are
currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap
actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up
side depressurizes while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam
down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to slam down or up. So
unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the
last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing)
BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has
a
built in pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If
your system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position,
don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep the
system from leaking. Fix the problem!
Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same thing
occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you
retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as
it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than
the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the
gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must
repressurize the actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up
position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to
repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down position (second
movement).
The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is designed
to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air system,
assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means
the gear selector is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the
actuators) and then the emergency air valve is opened.
BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do not
know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handle in
neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
_334-285-6263_ (tel:334-285-6263)
_334-546-8182_ (tel:334-546-8182) (mobile)
_www.yak-52.com_ (http://www.yak-52.com/)
Skype - Yakguy1
On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I have
some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are you
leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you
should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the
pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will
escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from.
The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are
exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using
it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when
raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with
the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me
know.
On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <_erniel29@gmail.com_
(mailto:erniel29@gmail.com) > wrote:
Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalking up
to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I
can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I
get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the front
flap handle.
Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and got a
VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front
handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air schematic
I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leaking
air back through to the front handle.
Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still may
have the leaky actuator.
Ernie
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://_forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://_forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Just in case any one was interested, it was the diverter valves.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front
> flap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and
> brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no
> brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an
> isolation.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
>>
>> As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are
>> different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would
>> need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the
>> student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position
>> for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now
>> prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need
>> for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just
>> there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Ernie,
>>> I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral
>>> positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the
>>> flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
>>>
>>> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
>>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>>
>>> On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>>>
>>> Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get
>>> actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a
>>> Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to
>>> the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good
>>> reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
>>>
>>> And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this
>>> configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the
>>> immediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)
>>>
>>> Ernie
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
>>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to
>>>> neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap
>>>> actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the
>>>> flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite
>>>> position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a
>>>> "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side
>>>> pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system
>>>> was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the
>>>> flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in
>>>> (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the
>>>> flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in
>>>> pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your
>>>> system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position,
>>>> don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep
>>>> the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
>>>>
>>>> Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same
>>>> thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral
>>>> after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the
>>>> same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me
>>>> what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct
>>>> movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when
>>>> the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear
>>>> selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a
>>>> couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear
>>>> selector to the down position (second movement).
>>>>
>>>> The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is
>>>> designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the
>>>> emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency
>>>> gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral
>>>> position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air
>>>> valve is opened.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do
>>>> not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear
>>>> handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
>>>>
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
>>>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>>>
>>>> On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I
>>>> have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why
>>>> are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up.
>>>> you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive
>>>> the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators
>>>> will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is
>>>> coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless
>>>> you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless
>>>> you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position
>>>> but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do
>>>> not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what
>>>> happens. Let me know.
>>>> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been
>>>>> chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle
>>>>> up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it
>>>>> in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back
>>>>> through the front flap handle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and
>>>>> got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the
>>>>> front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air
>>>>> schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are
>>>>> leaking air back through to the front handle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still
>>>>> may have the leaky actuator.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Actually Ernie, the front gear selector and the two flap selectors are
100% interchangeable. Only the rear gear selector is different. This is
true in both the CJ and the Yak 52 and in fact all of these components
are interchangeable between the airplanes.
Actually the front gear selector neutral position is to permit the rear
gear selector to have control. Although it does help in isolating some
air leaks, it was not designed for that purpose. The neutral position
on the front flap handle is to give full control of the flaps to the
rear flap selector by preventing any air passing through the lines from
the rear selector to the front selector UP or DOWN position. .
The best way to explain it is with the rear gear selector in neutral,
all air passes through the in and out ports of the rear gear selector to
the front gear selector so the front seat has full control. . When one
wants to operate the gear from the rear cockpit, putting the front gear
selector in neutral blocks the air from going to the UP or DOWN side of
the front gear selector.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 8/22/2014 8:51 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
> Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
>
> As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are
> different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you
> would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over
> ride the student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a
> neutral position for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any
> air leak, which is now prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but
> I can't think of any need for a neutral position for the front flap
> handle. As I stated it's just there because it's interchangeable with
> the rear handle.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>> wrote:
>
> Ernie,
> I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral
> positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for
> putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to
> depressurize the actuators.
>
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263 <tel:334-285-6263>
> 334-546-8182 <tel:334-546-8182> (mobile)
> www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com>
> Skype - Yakguy1
>
> On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>> Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug
>> to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap
>> handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the same as the
>> rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles) which requires it,
>> otherwise I can't think of any good reason for a neutral position
>> in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
>>
>> And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in
>> this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from
>> neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
>> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net
>> <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap
>> handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you
>> depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't move the
>> flap handle to the position the flaps are currently in before
>> you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap
>> actuator has nopressure in it, which acts like a "shock
>> absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side
>> pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The
>> system was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you
>> REpressurize the flap actuator by moving the selector to the
>> last position it was in (lets say the UP position when you
>> are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flapslams
>> down. The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief
>> system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is
>> leakingwhen you have the flap handle in the UP position,
>> don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in
>> neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
>>
>> Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The
>> same thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear
>> selector in neutral after you retract the gear, you
>> depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens as it
>> does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane
>> OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and
>> distinct movements to put the gear down when the gear is
>> retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the
>> actuators by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up
>> position (the first movement), wait a couple of seconds for
>> the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear selector
>> to the down position (second movement).
>>
>> The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear
>> is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with
>> the emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure
>> for emergency gear extension. That means the gear selector is
>> placed in the neutral position (depressurizes the actuators)
>> and then the emergency air valve is opened.
>>
>> BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's
>> and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the
>> flap handle or gear handle in neutral after moving the
>> flapsdown or gear up.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> A. Dennis Savarese
>> 334-285-6263 <tel:334-285-6263>
>> 334-546-8182 <tel:334-546-8182> (mobile)
>> www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com>
>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>
>> On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>>>
>>> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my
>>> aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am
>>> getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the handle in
>>> the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you should
>>> return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will
>>> relive the pressure in the system The air being relived from
>>> the flap actuators will escape thru the flap front handle
>>> area. That is were the noise is coming from. The rear handle
>>> is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are
>>> exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral
>>> unless you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them
>>> in the down position but when raising them, once they are
>>> up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap
>>> handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens.
>>> Let me know.
>>>
>>> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez"
>>> <erniel29@gmail.com <mailto:erniel29@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>>
>>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have
>>> been chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I
>>> leave the flap handle up in flight I can't get more than
>>> 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral, I get
>>> up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back
>>> through the front flap handle.
>>>
>>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the
>>> hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit.
>>> Didn't matter what position the front handle was in, up,
>>> down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air
>>> schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the
>>> diverter valves are leaking air back through to the
>>> front handle.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I
>>> realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
>>>
>>> Ernie
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Yes, that is true. But that is not the primary reason for the neutral
position which I explained in my previous email to this post.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 8/22/2014 9:13 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
> Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front
> flap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps
> and brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would
> have no brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act
> as an isolation.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com
> <mailto:erniel29@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
>
> As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles
> are different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's
> obvious you would need a neutral position in the rear for both, in
> order to over ride the student in the front seat, and I understand
> the need for a neutral position for the front gear handle, which
> is to isolate any air leak, which is now prompting an emergency
> blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a neutral
> position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there
> because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>>
> wrote:
>
> Ernie,
> I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have
> neutral positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's
> not for putting the flap or gear handle in neutral after
> movement to depressurize the actuators.
>
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263 <tel:334-285-6263>
> 334-546-8182 <tel:334-546-8182> (mobile)
> www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com>
> Skype - Yakguy1
>
> On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>> Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for
>> Doug to get actuator seals in stock. The only reason the
>> front flap handle has a Neutral Position is because it's the
>> same as the rear handle (as opposed to the Gear Handles)
>> which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason
>> for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a
>> bandaid.
>>
>> And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in
>> this configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps
>> from neutral and the immediate pitch change was definitely
>> interesting :)
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
>> <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net
>> <mailto:dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the
>> flap handle to neutral after moving the flaps down or up,
>> you depressurize the flap actuator. Thus, if you don't
>> move the flap handle to the position the flaps are
>> currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite
>> position, the flap actuator has nopressure in it, which
>> acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes
>> while the down side pressurizes), the flaps will slam
>> down or up accordingly. The system was not designed to
>> slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap
>> actuator by moving the selector to the last position it
>> was in (lets say the UP position when you are landing)
>> BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flapslams down. The
>> pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system.
>> It is called the "pop off" valve. If your system is
>> leakingwhen you have the flap handle in the UP position,
>> don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in
>> neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
>>
>> Regarding doing the same thing with the gear
>> selector.....The same thing occurs with the gear. If you
>> put the gear selector in neutral after you retract the
>> gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing
>> happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell
>> me what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two
>> complete, separate and distinct movements to put the gear
>> down when the gear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up,
>> one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear
>> selector from neutral to the up position (the first
>> movement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to
>> repressurize and then move the gear selector to the down
>> position (second movement).
>>
>> The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing
>> gear is designed to "slam" down is when one extends the
>> gear with the emergency air system, assuming one follows
>> the procedure for emergency gear extension. That means
>> the gear selector is placed in the neutral position
>> (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air
>> valve is opened.
>>
>> BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the
>> CJ's and I do not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts
>> either the flap handle or gear handle in neutral after
>> moving the flapsdown or gear up.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> A. Dennis Savarese
>> 334-285-6263 <tel:334-285-6263>
>> 334-546-8182 <tel:334-546-8182> (mobile)
>> www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com>
>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>
>> On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>>>
>>> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my
>>> aircraft and I have some very limited knowledge but I am
>>> getting better. (I think). Why are you leaving the
>>> handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up.
>>> you should return the handle to neutral once they are
>>> up. This will relive the pressure in the system The air
>>> being relived from the flap actuators will escape thru
>>> the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is
>>> coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it
>>> in neutral unless you are exercising the valve. Try
>>> leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using
>>> it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down
>>> position but when raising them, once they are up, put
>>> the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the flap
>>> handle in the up position. Try this and see what
>>> happens. Let me know.
>>>
>>> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez"
>>> <erniel29@gmail.com <mailto:erniel29@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>>
>>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I
>>> have been chalking up to leaky actuator seals.
>>> Basically if I leave the flap handle up in flight I
>>> can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I
>>> leave it in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed
>>> the actuator was leaking back through the front flap
>>> handle.
>>>
>>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in
>>> the hangar and got a VERY loud leak in the front
>>> cockpit. Didn't matter what position the front
>>> handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick
>>> glance at the air schematic I have concluded that it
>>> has to be that the diverter valves are leaking air
>>> back through to the front handle.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I
>>> realize I still may have the leaky actuator.
>>>
>>> Ernie
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Sorry Dennis, I'm having issues with Gmail today and things are getting out
of sync.
To your last post. Having to put the front handle in Neutral so the the
Rear can take control doesn't seem to make any sense. The whole point of an
instructor in the back seat is to over-ride the front seaters actions.
Expecting the front seater to put valves in neutral defeats the purpose.
Actuating the Rear gear or flap controls should engage the system,
regardless of front seat position.
Ernie
On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 2:41 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <
dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Yes, that is true. But that is not the primary reason for the neutral
> position which I explained in my previous email to this post.
>
> Dennis
>
> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
> Skype - Yakguy1
>
> On 8/22/2014 9:13 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>
> Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front
> flap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and
> brakes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no
> brakes, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an
> isolation.
>
> Ernie
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
>>
>> As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are
>> different, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would
>> need a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the
>> student in the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position
>> for the front gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now
>> prompting an emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need
>> for a neutral position for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just
>> there because it's interchangeable with the rear handle.
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Ernie,
>>> I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral
>>> positions on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the
>>> flap or gear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the
>>> actuators.
>>>
>>> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
>>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>>
>>> On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>>>
>>> Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to get
>>> actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a
>>> Neutral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to
>>> the Gear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good
>>> reason for a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
>>>
>>> And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this
>>> configuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the
>>> immediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)
>>>
>>> Ernie
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <
>>> dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle to
>>>> neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap
>>>> actuator. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the
>>>> flaps are currently in before you move the flaps to the opposite
>>>> position, the flap actuator has no pressure in it, which acts like a
>>>> "shock absorber" (ie: up side depressurizes while the down side
>>>> pressurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system
>>>> was not designed to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the
>>>> flap actuator by moving the selector to the last position it was in
>>>> (lets say the UP position when you are landing) BEFORE you put the
>>>> flaps down, the flap slams down. The pneumatic system has a built in
>>>> pressure relief system. It is called the "pop off" valve. If your
>>>> system is leaking when you have the flap handle in the UP position,
>>>> don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle in neutral to keep
>>>> the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
>>>>
>>>> Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same
>>>> thing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral
>>>> after you retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the
>>>> same thing happens as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me
>>>> what airplane OTHER than the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct
>>>> movements to put the gear down when the gear is retracted? ie: when
>>>> the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuators by moving the gear
>>>> selector from neutral to the up position (the first movement), wait a
>>>> couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and then move the gear
>>>> selector to the down position (second movement).
>>>>
>>>> The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is
>>>> designed to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the
>>>> emergency air system, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency
>>>> gear extension. That means the gear selector is placed in the neutral
>>>> position (depressurizes the actuators) and then the emergency air
>>>> valve is opened.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do
>>>> not know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear
>>>> handle in neutral after moving the flaps down or gear up.
>>>>
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.com
>>>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>>>
>>>> On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I
>>>> have some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why
>>>> are you leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up.
>>>> you should return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive
>>>> the pressure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators
>>>> will escape thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is
>>>> coming from. The rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless
>>>> you are exercising the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless
>>>> you are using it. When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position
>>>> but when raising them, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do
>>>> not fly with the flap handle in the up position. Try this and see what
>>>> happens. Let me know.
>>>> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been
>>>>> chalking up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle
>>>>> up in flight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it
>>>>> in neutral, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back
>>>>> through the front flap handle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and
>>>>> got a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the
>>>>> front handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air
>>>>> schematic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are
>>>>> leaking air back through to the front handle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still
>>>>> may have the leaky actuator.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List>
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Leaky Flap Diverter Valves????? |
Glad you got it fixed. This horse was pulverized.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 22, 2014, at 1:33 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just in case any one was interested, it was the diverter valves.
>
> Ernie
>
>
>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wr
ote:
>> Actually I just realized a reason for a neutral position for the front fl
ap handle. The emergency circuit also provide pressure for the flaps and bra
kes. If there was a major leak in the flap circuit, you would have no brakes
, so putting front flap handle in neutral would also act as an isolation.
>>
>> Ernie
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29@gmail.com> wr
ote:
>>> Well do tell Dennis, don't keep me guessing!
>>>
>>> As I understand it, in the CJ's the front and rear gear handles are diff
erent, but the Flap handles are interchangeable. It's obvious you would need
a neutral position in the rear for both, in order to over ride the student i
n the front seat, and I understand the need for a neutral position for the f
ront gear handle, which is to isolate any air leak, which is now prompting a
n emergency blowdown (I think), but I can't think of any need for a neutral p
osition for the front flap handle. As I stated it's just there because it's i
nterchangeable with the rear handle.
>>>
>>> Ernie
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:18 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bell
south.net> wrote:
>>>> Ernie,
>>>> I really do know why the airplanes (Yak 52 and CJ) have neutral positio
ns on both the flap and gear handles. And it's not for putting the flap or g
ear handle in neutral after movement to depressurize the actuators.
>>>>
>>>> A. Dennis Savarese
>>>> 334-285-6263
>>>> 334-546-8182 (mobile)
>>>> www.yak-52.com
>>>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>>>> On 8/22/2014 7:58 AM, Ernest Martinez wrote:
>>>>> Yep, I agree I should fix the problem, I've been waiting for Doug to g
et actuator seals in stock. The only reason the front flap handle has a Neut
ral Position is because it's the same as the rear handle (as opposed to the G
ear Handles) which requires it, otherwise I can't think of any good reason f
or a neutral position in the front, but in my case it's a bandaid.
>>>>>
>>>>> And with regards to slamming, since I'm not used to flying in this con
figuration I inadvertently went straight down flaps from neutral and the imm
ediate pitch change was definitely interesting :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:46 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bel
lsouth.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Regarding the flap handle in neutral, when you move the flap handle t
o neutral after moving the flaps down or up, you depressurize the flap actua
tor. Thus, if you don't move the flap handle to the position the flaps are c
urrently in before you move the flaps to the opposite position, the flap act
uator has no pressure in it, which acts like a "shock absorber" (ie: up side
depressurizes while the down side pre
ssurizes), the flaps will slam down or up accordingly. The system was not d
esigned to slam down or up. So unless you REpressurize the flap actuator by
moving the selector to the last position it was in (lets say the UP positio
n when you are landing) BEFORE you put the flaps down, the flap slams down.
The pneumatic system has a built in pressure relief system. It is called t
he "pop off" valve. If your system is leaking when you have the flap handle
in the UP position, don't band-aide the problem by putting the flap handle i
n neutral to keep the system from leaking. Fix the problem!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding doing the same thing with the gear selector.....The same th
ing occurs with the gear. If you put the gear selector in neutral after you
retract the gear, you depressurize the actuators and the same thing happens
as it does with the flaps. And can anyone tell me what airplane OTHER than
the CJ6 requires two complete, separate and distinct movements to put the g
ear down when the g
ear is retracted? ie: when the gear is up, one must repressurize the actuat
ors by moving the gear selector from neutral to the up position (the first m
ovement), wait a couple of seconds for the actuators to repressurize and the
n move the gear selector to the down position (second movement).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only time the pneumatic system and thus the landing gear is desig
ned to "slam" down is when one extends the gear with the emergency air syste
m, assuming one follows the procedure for emergency gear extension.
That means the gear selec
tor is placed in the neutral position (depressurizes
the actuators) and then the emergency air
valve is opened.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, the Yak 52's system is basically the same as the CJ's and I do n
ot know of anyone flying a 52 that puts either the flap handle or gear handl
e in neutral after
moving the flaps down or gear up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A. Dennis Savarese
>>>>>> 334-285-6263
>>>>>> 334-546-8182 (mobile)
>>>>>> www.yak-52.com
>>>>>> Skype - Yakguy1
>>>>>> On 8/22/2014 6:57 AM, Greg Wrobel wrote:
>>>>>>> Ernest. Trust me, I like you, I am still learning my aircraft and I h
ave some very limited knowledge but I am getting better. (I think). Why are y
ou leaving the handle in the up position?? When you put the flaps up. you sh
ould return the handle to neutral once they are up. This will relive the pre
ssure in the system The air being relived from the flap actuators will escap
e thru the flap front handle area. That is were the noise is coming from. Th
e rear handle is master. Always leave it in neutral unless you are exercisin
g the valve. Try leaving the flap handle in neutral unless you are using it.
When putting flaps down. Leave them in the down position but when raising t
hem, once they are up, put the handle back to neutral. Do not fly with the f
lap handle in the up position. Try this and see what happens. Let me know.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2014 2:26 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29@gmail.com> wro
te:
>>>>>>>> Heres one for you Air Heads out there :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been aware of a leak in my flap system that I have been chalki
ng up to leaky actuator seals. Basically if I leave the flap handle up in fl
ight I can't get more than 30 on the air gauge, but if I leave it in neutral
, I get up to 40. So I assumed the actuator was leaking back through the fro
nt flap handle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Today I decided to actuate the rear flap handle in the hangar and g
ot a VERY loud leak in the front cockpit. Didn't matter what position the fr
ont handle was in, up, down or neutral. After a quick glance at the air sche
matic I have concluded that it has to be that the diverter valves are leakin
g air back through to the front handle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any thoughts before I start taking things apart. I realize I still m
ay have the leaky actuator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ernie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>
>
>
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>
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